This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
John: Stacey, you want to kick it
Stacy: Okay.
Yeah. Today's, uh, theme song has a lot of clapping. Let's listen to the show, show. The
showrunner show. Let's listen show, show, show runner show. The showrunner
show. Yeah.
Drew: It's pretty good. I like the clavicle.
John: I'll add to
Stacy: Thanks, thanks.
John: the clapping before. That's wonderful.

Stacy: Oh, you just open things up for me. It's gonna be
Drew: We didn't know there was instruments.
Stacy: snapping and clapping from now on.

Drew: Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify
some aspect of the job of showrunning for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or
just wants to know how it's all made. I'm Drew Dowdle.
John: I'm John Eric Dowdle.
Stacy: I'm Stacey Shabosky. We're super glad you're here. This is episode 23, which, uh, kinda,
kinda blows my mind.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: job,
fellas.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah. So this week we wanted to give you five tips for managing overwhelm. Uh, when
you think of the job of show running, managing so many things from scripts to personnel, to
casting, to, uh, production and overseeing shooting to editorial. And sometimes it's all happening
all at the same time.
And the job just by its nature is overwhelming. It's, it's literally an impossible job. It's an

Stacy: Mm.
John: job to do all this stuff that's expected of you in a day. so we wanted to just give some, you
know, some tips. and tricks that we've used to, you know, keep ourselves sane in the midst of it.
Drew: Yeah, I'd like to add to it gets increasingly overwhelming as you go through the season as
well. I mean, it's for anyone coming from movies or if you're, you know, in screenplays, it's one
thing to kind of have notes on one static, you know, screenplay,
um, and similar TV. When you're working on the pilot, you have notes on one episode, but you
can, you know, Flash forward to Episode 6, you're still doing notes on Episodes 1, 2, you're
casting Episodes 1 and
2, you're, uh, you know, uh, doing tone meanings for 5 and 6, I mean, it just starts to stack upon
each other, you know, in an increasing way throughout the entire season, and that, I think in our
first season of TV, that was the part that kind of, uh, shook me, was just how, how much it
escalates over the course of the season.
John: Yeah. And it's kind of unrelenting. It just doesn't, it's not like, okay, now that you're done
with episode six, uh, why don't you take a month off and just like get some sleep, you know, eat
healthy,
Stacy: Uh. Mm hmm.
John: uh, you know, Drew and I in a couple of, you know, in these last couple of years.
We were, you know, lucky enough to get to run two shows at the same time. And we were
directing, we directed all the episodes of, uh, Waco Aftermath. So, know, show running two
shows and like, and like there was mornings when I get up at three 30 in the morning and do
rewrites on seven different episodes.
Like it was overwhelming, you
Drew: Hmmm
John: and, and it just didn't stop for like, you know. A year and a half, and I mean, I'm so
grateful for, you know, the chance to do that. And, uh, and, you know, we really had to like
rethink the way we, we systemize things a bit better. And, and part of, part of this show is just to
explore different ways of doing things so that, you know, we can, uh, take that, you know, as we
scale even beyond two, hopefully.
Stacy: We visited you in, uh, uh, Waco Aftermath was in Santa Fe and the kids and I did not go
for the first time ever. We didn't do the set as a family. We'd always traveled together as a family.
Uh, but this, you know, the kids were getting old enough that John, uh, you know, went, Drew
was there too, but my family didn't go, John was there by himself and we visited and you got
yourself an aspirational Peloton.
all the,
Drew: Hehehehehe Hehehehehehehehe
Stacy: John had this Peloton in the kitchen that was there, you know, just to get in all those
workouts to manage your stress or the, and not just,
you know, as we would visit, it was just gathering this layer of dust,

John: Oh,
Stacy: but the Starbucks bags, there was like a mountain, a mountain of empty coffee bags and
a
Drew: I mean,
Stacy: Peloton.
Drew: let's be real
though, aren't all Pelotons aspirational Pelotons?

John: this episode not brought to you by Peloton.
Stacy: Yeah. You know what I do? I use the Peloton now. I take my laptop and I open it up to
whatever comp TV show I'm supposed to be watching because I'm always so behind on
watching TV. So I stick it against the Peloton and I just watch whatever true crime, you know,
whatever TV show I'm
Drew: We
Stacy: catch up on while I do my ride. It's fun. Ha
Drew: like the best room in the whole house, and it was, the previous owner just had a Peloton
in there, and that was like the only thing. The whole room was dedicated to the Peloton, and
when I finally met them, I'm like, wow, you guys are serious, serious about that Peloton, huh?
And they're like, yeah, it's been used twice. A whole four season porch is a... Peloton Furniture
Stacy: ha! Oh.
John: Yeah, but that in
Stacy: Hmm.
John: Peloton I got was, uh, yeah, I, you know, I maybe used it six, seven times, but it was
Stacy: Okay.
John: I mean, on the weekends it was like, there was just so much work. I literally. The
weekend would come, I'd take the break from directing, literally wouldn't leave the, I, I maybe
went out and grabbed a coffee across the street once all weekend and every, everything was
like just Uber eating stuff in and just like trying to, like,
Drew: yeah.
John: just
Stacy: I remember I kept telling you, I was like, honey, I looked at Google Maps. The Folk Art
Museum is just five minutes away. Why don't you pop over to the Folk Art Museum? were like,
I'm going to kill you. Stop suggesting that I go see the carved puppets. I'm never going to leave
my house and see the carpets.

So I think we should talk about jumping back into overwhelm and stress. I think we should dig
into the fact that like, it's emotional, it's mental, because you're trying to spin all those things,
and it's physical. Cause like I compare, you know, I'm talking about John, not Drew here,
because John's my husband.
I see like when you're not on a show, like currently you're not running a show that's in
production. So you're working out 90 minutes a day, eating vegan, healthy as can be, you know,
just like so healthy doing the saunas and stuff, and then, you know, When production begins, it's
just coffee and five
Drew: yeah.
Stacy: and PA's bringing around an endless parade of brownie bites.
Like, you know,
John: Oh,
Drew: I mean it is.
John: takes.
Drew: It is so physically task, uh, taxing, like
I mean, like you're saying, you can come into it in really good, you know, really good place and
everything. And like on Waco, I remember, you know, the medic having to come to my trailer and
put, you know, three bags of fluid in me and an IV. And like, you know, you get to that place and
not to be dramatic about it, but it's just, it's
Stacy: Whoa,
Drew: some point during the show, I get to that point of like almost complete physical
breakdown.
Stacy: damn.
Drew: show I go in to be like, okay, I'm going to really manage that and make sure I do it
differently. And, and it's almost, you know, it's not unavoidable, but hopefully we can give some
tips to, to help, you
know, uh, help, uh,
head that off.
Cause it really is, uh, so physically exhausting.
Stacy: It's actually kind of a fun game I like to play as the on set, the covering writer. I like
watching the director start on day one, just fresh as a daisy, often
Drew: I,
Stacy: looking. Directors are often good looking. And by their last day, they always were
always left with like eye patch and like a, you know, all sorts of carpal tunnel stuff.
And they got some sort of, they're just literally

hobbling a knee brace,
Drew: I had a, I had a stye swell up like half of my face while I was directing. It's like, and when
you're directing, you just can't, you know, tap out for the day, no matter what's
going on. You know, you just gotta keep going.
Stacy: times, just barfing all throughout the day and being like, well, you know,
Drew: I did that on on Waco. That's, yeah, I did too.
Yeah.
Stacy: my God.
John: Oh, that's right. You did that. I did that on, uh, No Escape. Like, I had the, like, I don't
know, the flu or like we
Stacy: Yeah. Nobody cares that you got the flu. It costs a lot
of money. Each day is a lot to go barf. Come
back, keep directing.
John: the monitors and I'd walk away like projectile vomit and then come back to the monitors.
And, and actually that's the one time I was like, Drew, like, I can't do it.
And Drew's like, dude, I gotcha. And so Drew and, uh, the cinematographer finished that,
finished the day. Cause it was boat work.
Drew: It was boat work, of course. Yeah, it's like cameras on a boat. Oh, God.
John: was like,
Stacy: Yikes.
John: know, it was like, you know, it was time to go on the boat. I was like, I, I, I know what to
do. And Drew's like, I
Stacy: Hmm.
So
Drew: work.
Stacy: some tweaks you've made through the years? What, what tweaks are you planning to,
like, let's, let's get practical.
John: wanted to come up with like kind of five ideas or, you know, and
Stacy: Hmm,
John: like, we can have more, but like five things, like sort of a, a list of things you can try if
you're like, you know, overwhelmed, like there, you need a rewrite of the scene right now. And
they're about to shoot it and you have to, you know, like, what are the things you can do?

And I would say, yeah, I would put top of the list, admit you don't know. Like there's moments I, I
learned this trick as a, as a director, actually, not as a showrunner, but, you know, early on in my
directing, I always felt like I had to know everything I had to have the plan. And when someone
asked a question, I had to know and answer, even if I wasn't sure I'd answer with authority, you
know?
and then one day I was just, a scene wasn't working just didn't, I couldn't diagnose it. And I went
on set and I was like. not working. I can't figure out what it is. Like who has an idea? And it
created this space where everyone just, you know, the actors started like, you know, Oh, what if
instead of crossing over here, if I cross over there, like, what if I did this, would that help?
And then the other actor is like, Oh, and I could counter with this. And, and
Stacy: hmm,
John: this, thing happened that because I didn't know, it sort of just. Fixed itself. You know what
I mean? And,
Stacy: hmm,
John: felt more engaged and more, lit up by that. And, you know, I'll say in Waco aftermath, I
had a similar, there was a moment where I tried everything I could think of.
Like I got up super early and I had note cards on the board and I was like doing my like beautiful
mind note card thing. And I just, I was just about to lose it. And then Drew called and he's like,
Hey, I had an idea, like, you know what would tie all this together is, like, this. it
Stacy: hmm,
John: this simple solution that I would have never in my life seen.
Stacy: hmm,
John: I, you know, like, like, truly, single handedly saved the show that day. Like, it would have
fallen apart at that point. And I wouldn't, I would have never gotten there, you know, on my own.
And Drew and I are always collaborative, but it's... know, sometimes one of us is doing like
running with this while the other person's directing or, you know,
Stacy: hmm.
John: you know, we often have one person running point on any given thing at a moment.
Drew: That's Kind of, you know, more in the creative and the writing side. And, you know, I think
sometimes on set, you know, when something's just not working, whether it's the blocking,
whether it's the, like you're saying, kind of open it up, like, I don't know why this isn't working,
you know, I need help.
And you might get too many opinions. Um, in that
scenario too, but you'll know, like, who is it on that set that you really trust creatively. Is it your
cinematographer? Is it your lead actor? Is it, you know, your AD? You know, there'll be that voice
that, you know, hopefully you've been shooting for a little bit and you, you've kind of come to
really trust someone and like really lean on that person, you know,
and really Ask that person's opinion when you need it, because it's, uh, amazing sometimes it's
just, it just needs to be someone else's input at that moment that can really dislodge a moment.

John: I like to say, and, and I really feel that this is very true is like the more experienced I get,
the less I do and the better everything goes.
Drew: Yeah.
John: And I've learned to. Instead of telling everyone, you know, trying to tell everyone
everything, you know what I mean? I, learned to approach the craft of show running and
directing more, more like a therapist, more
Drew: Mhm.
John: going up to an actor after a take and saying like, how did you feel that went instead of
being like, you know, do it more mad or whatever, like, you know, how did you feel that one?
How did, how did that feel to you? Like, Like what if we try this, you know, and take a much
gentler with that stuff and I, I'm trying, you know, as I, as I get more experience in the, on the
show running side to, to be more that way also is to like be less, less like, okay, I stayed up and I
figured out the, what we need to do and more
Stacy: hmm.
John: asking the questions and, and, and bringing more people in and being less.
Certain and embracing the, the, you know, being less certain. And
Drew: Yeah.
John: that brings me a lot of peace and it actually goes much better. Like I did a fraction, you
know, season two of Joe Pickett, I did a fraction of the work for season two that I did in season
one. And I would say the results were much, really, I love season two.
I feel like season two, I mean, I love both seasons, but I feel like season two was really special.
And that was in large part because, myself and, and Drew, I feel like both of us, like really let it
evolve it by itself
Drew: Mhm.
Stacy: From the outside, from the non showrunner, um, point of view, I would think that, you
know, a showrunner who's, quote, got all the answers, who's very controlling, who does the
whole, like, there is no way any of you is going to come up with an idea that I haven't already
come up with, because I've thought about this whole thing, like, that's just another way of saying
huge ego.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: and it's kind of cool to, to get rid of that and to invite other people who also are extremely
creative, you
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: your, writers in the room, your cinematographers, all your camera people, even your
producers really like, uh, you know, like a Linda Ambrey type of very creative line
Drew: Yeah.

Stacy: They're very creative. They also have chosen to go into this weird field and make great
personal sacrifices in order to be creative. So it's probably quite fun for them to be invited into.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: What do you think? I don't have any ideas here. Like, I don't know what to do. What do
you suggest?
Drew: Yeah.
I mean, everybody brings such a different background of experiences to a, to a problem, you
know, and it just, we actually, you know, have heard that comment before of that. Like, I've been
working on this for a few years and I've thought of everything and there's no way that, you know,
anyone here will ever think of anything that I haven't already thought of.
And like, that is a bold statement. And
it's a,
John: Yeah.
Drew: know, it seems very limiting too, as far as, you know, what could fall in your lap. I mean,
we're, you know, You know, the years with how many great ideas and how many great tweaks,
you know, have just kind of fallen in our laps by the people, you know, the very smart, talented
people around us.
And
I think you're crazy not to use that, uh, as much as you
can.
Stacy: But the people offering up those tweaks, I
would guess that half of them, half of them are probably just very opinionated people
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: help but talk,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: them
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: they offered up that
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: I bet their hearts were pounding. I bet they were like, today's the day. Today's the day.
I'm going to suggest we get B roll in that gully, you know?
Drew: Yeah.

Yeah.
It's true. And you have to filter through a lot of it too, but, uh, you know, it's. A fine line. You
definitely don't want to make it, you know, everybody give me your opinion 100, you know,
anytime
you have a thought, you know, like that
can be paralyzing too. So it's definitely a, uh, a fine line. But I
think
Stacy: be a free for
Drew: if it can't be a free
for all, because
John: yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
John: kind of film school. Like everyone just throw it out. Every idea that comes into your head,
you know, like that film school thing doesn't work once you have, you know, a hundred people,
but you know, I like, you know, at the end of
season two of picket. you know, our location, uh, manager, Luke, had like, it was like, Hey, I just
read the most recent script and I have an idea. And he pitched an idea over email. It was totally
respectful, super nice. He'd never, you know, thrown out any idea, like, you know, it was, you
know, he's like, you know, you can tell me, you know, just, you know, go away, you know, like,
but I just want to mention, I saw this thing and this opportunity.
I loved it. It was a great idea. And
Stacy: It was a great idea.
John: Yeah, we ended up incorporating it and over the course of rewrites, it shifted, but, but it
was a, you know, it was one of those, uh, great ideas come from all over if you're open to them.
And if you have a, you know, a, a creative space where people know, you know, there's some
degree of, you know, hierarchy on set and stuff, but if it's not like rigid in that way where people
feel, um, you're a human being who wants to hear the best idea, you know what I mean?
And if they, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure Luke, you know, thought twice before, you know what I
mean? I'm sure he was one of those people who was like, I have this idea. It's so
Stacy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: it. And he
Stacy: What's the best way to do it? Should I walk up to him? Should I send an email?
Yeah.
John: Yeah, it was great. number one, admit you don't know.
Stacy: Number two.

John: Number two, uh, take a break.
I find, I find when I'm stuck on something, one of the best things I can do take a walk, have a
workout, you know, I mean, when I'm at my worst, uh, have a snack, uh, but that could be a
dangerous, uh, slippery slope, like do a little riding, have a snack, do a little riding, have a snack.
Um, but, uh, but, but taking a walk, I often find not thinking about.
The writing, you know, but just step away from it and just observe stuff along the walk. Like I find
it centers me and, and helps my mind sort of sort it out in the background.
Drew: And I would add to that too, just sleep, sleep is so important. I think it's so tempting to like
stay up really late, you know, working and then get up really early. And, um, you know, if it's a,
some deadline, you know, there's obviously moments where that's warranted, but to get into the
habit of doing that when you're, I mean, you're in a marathon, you know, you're not.
If you
start, you know, sacrificing your sleep like you're in a, you know, a sprint, um, that is a, that is a
dangerous path. And I think, uh, you know, you're always better in the morning than you are late
at night in terms of creative energy and creative, you know, intelligence always feels so much
more, uh, efficient in the morning than, than staying up late at night.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: True.
John: on that and say, is more important than prep.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.
John: is more important than knowing all the shots you're going to shoot the next day, or, you
know, exactly what you're going to talk about in the writer's room, like sleep. more important.
Like if you're, if you're well rested, you, you have the agility mind to manage anything,
Drew: Mm
John: you can have, you know, prepare every possibility and be so exhausted by the time you
show up to work that you're unable to think quickly on the fly.
And that's,
Stacy: What does well rested mean to you guys when you're in production? Like how many
hours is well rested? Like, let's not talk about, you know, pre pro or being in the room or post,
but like actual, like you're turning around scripts, you're in production. many hours is, uh, is well
rested?
Drew: hmm. I think it depends on the person. I mean, for me, it's. You know, um, when I was
younger, I was less than that, but I, I
find as I get older, I need more and preferably eight, you know, but
Stacy: Okay,
Drew: obviously like, you know, production schedules change over the course of the week even.

And sometimes you're, you know, have a 5 a.
m. call time at the beginning of the week and a 5 p. m. call time at the end of the week. It can be
very hard to, um, you know, to stay, uh, To, to get quality sleep over the course of a week. Just
given how much. It's like you have jet lag, you know, every week, you know, it's
like literally taking an international flight once a week and trying to, you know, still
get a lot of the good sleep and it's, it's a real challenge.
Stacy: Mm.
John: I agree. Seven or eight, you know, seven or
Drew: Yeah.
John: Like, I mean. Can I do a, you know, four or five hours? Like I can for a day, you know, but
if I string two of those together, then I'm fuzzy and, you
Drew: Yeah.
John: fuzzy, rewrites take longer. you know what I mean? Like when someone has a question
for me that takes longer to process it, the days go slower, I get more frustrated and more, you
know, I become my own enemy.
You know, a lot of the day
Drew: Yeah.
John: of time internally. You know, dealing with my own frustration, um, and, uh, and I just, you
know, a normal day, I feel like I have, you know, five to 10 frustrations before I'm like, dang it,
you know, uh, whereas if I'm really tired, I have maybe one or two, you know, it might be the first
thing might be the drive to set and I'm like, ah, traffic, you know,
Stacy: yeah.
John: you know, and, and so, yeah, I think, yeah, I want to use the, you know, kind of the
archetypal story of Archimedes.
Uh, that story, like the King asked Archimedes and I think it was ancient Greece to, um, the King
is like, I think this, you know, goldsmith, you know, cheated me this, this crown. I don't think it
was pure gold, you know, figure out a way to find it, figure it out, find out. And Archimedes like
his hair out, like just focused on it day and night, like, you know, couldn't sleep, couldn't do
anything.
He was just trying to solve this problem. And his wife is like, know, Archimedes, go take a break,
go, you know, go have a soak in the tub and just relax. You know, you're working too hard. And
he's like, you know, you're right. So he went and he got in the tub and he realized as his body
displaced the water in the tub, he's like, this is the solution.
You put a crown in water and the weight of the crown will displace a certain amount of water
according to whether it's pure gold or not. he solved, you know, solve the, the case, you know,
solve the problem. By taking a break. And I feel like so often just like when you're trying to
remember someone's name so hard and you can't, and then you walk away and you start doing
something else and you're like, Oh, that's a person's name.

It's, it's kind of that same principle. Like sometimes you just need to disengage and, and, you
know, stop struggling and
Drew: Yeah, that's.
John: solution will come.
Drew: I love that.
Stacy: Did we talk about MIQ? Have we done that? Most important question. I can't remember if
we've talked about that on the podcast or not.
Drew: I don't think so.
John: no.
Stacy: That's, that's something I really like to do. I don't do it very often, um, but I do it, uh, in
the room, uh, for special occasions.
So MIQ is most important question. And before you go to sleep at night, you can ask yourself,
okay, what would I like my unconscious subconscious to work on tonight?
What kind of problem? And it could be something like, oh, we have to do a big reveal at the end
of this episode, we know we have to convey this information, but we don't have a cool way to do
that yet. You know, what's a cool, like that's, that's, I used it
once for that. So that's always the example I give.
And then, so first you have to get clear on what the question is, get pretty specific or
purposefully vague of like, something doesn't feel right with what we're doing. What do I need to
know,
You know, you can
Drew: Mm hmm.
Stacy: And then you go to sleep and I like to have my phone near me or pad or something near
me.
And usually around four o'clock when I wake up to pee, I've got something.
Drew: Mm hmm.
Stacy: or at least when I wake up in the morning and it's not necessarily great, but it's usually
pretty good and it's at least
Drew: That's cool.
Stacy: and I didn't have to do any work like my unconscious did it for me, which is so you got a
freebie,
Drew: Yeah, just
plant the seed before you go to bed. That's
really

interesting. I like that.
Stacy: fun.
John: that is good. Yeah, she does do that. She, you know, I got to say too, in, in the writer's
room when sometimes the room gets stuck on a point on a, like, we need a clue, like a way to
discover this clue. That's, you know, relevant to the world we're in. And, you
Stacy: Mm hmm.
John: and often we'll say like, okay, tonight, you know, sleep on it.
Everyone, you know, try and bring, bring in something tomorrow to pitch on this idea, good or
bad, just bring in
Stacy: Right,
John: And, and often just that, just that alone gets, you know, everyone kind of thinking about it
and, know, we're, you know, as they are having dinner and, you know, going to sleep and putting
their kids to bed or whatever, like it's, it's working in the background of their mind somewhere.
okay. Number three, consult the room, your producers, the network. trusted advisors, you know,
whoever, like to people, talk to people and be like, you know, maybe the reason you're
overwhelmed is don't have enough people, you know, on, on your staff, you know, on, on picket
season one, it was essentially drew and I, and we were doing a bunch of the directing and, and
we had no other writers.
staff during production, other than
Stacy: Mm.
John: managing a bunch of the scripts and, and it was just too much. And there was a point at
which, know, I called the studio and I was like, literally going to go crazy. We need a, right. We
need someone else. So, you know, like, like we need to like hire Stace, we need Stace cause
Stace wasn't on it at that point, but like, we need Stacy, like you got it.
Like, and you had, I think finished the Waco. at that point.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: because I was doing that remotely, living in Canada, but on a Zoom room for Waco.
John: Yeah. So you were doing that. But then once that was over, I was like, we need Stacy.
Like, and they're like, I don't know if we have it in the budget. I was like, literally, I'm going to, I'm
going to go insane. Like it's too much. I just can't be at once in the, you know, Drew's directing.
managing all this other stuff and it's just too much work for us and the show is going to start to
suffer if we
Stacy: Mm.
John: who can be there managing, doing rewrites and all that stuff.
Um,
Drew: And this was the back half of the season, to my point earlier, at this point, you

know,
I was directing, you were managing all the edits, so we have, you know, delivering episodes
one, and two, and
three, and four, so like, there's rewrites going on on, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten, and
you're delivering, you know, cuts of one, two, three, four, I mean, that's
where it
starts to, the escalation of workload really starts to become unmanageable if you don't
have the support, you know.
Stacy: forgot about that whole thing of delivering cuts. Like by that time, because John and I
share a trailer, like I'll pop in to like, I don't know, do something in the trailer and you're always
on a zoom with an
Drew: with an editor.
Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: hours a day and it's like, oh yeah, you're not going to be turning around, you know, draft
number 75 of that scene that shoots tomorrow.
If you're spending three hours, you know,
Drew: Yeah, and you
can pop into a script and make some changes kind of, you know, from, you know, your chair on
set, or you can kind of do that from wherever. When you're an editorial, you're just locked to your
computer for hours on
end and you know, you are
you are totally out of pocket to do anything else.
And,
Stacy: right.
Drew: and that, that is real, a real time suck. And, uh,
Stacy: um,
Drew: it's really
important. I think that, you know, the care and attention to the edits at the end of the day is, um,
is hugely, hugely important. So it's
time well spent, but. Yeah.
John: And then we had new directors showing up and they had notes for their scripts and ideas
for how to build, like, and it was just like, there was just, it was overwhelmed. It was pure
overwhelm. And then Stace came in and it was just, it was overwhelming. She spent the time

with the directors, she managed the rewrites, and instead of doing the deadlift with rewrites, I
would just like, look at what Stacy had done, maybe tweak things a little here and there, it was
like, perfect, perfect, perfect, you know what I mean, like,
Drew: Yeah.
John: what was, you know, 60 percent of my workload became, you know, 5 percent of my
workload, and just the calculus of that just changed everything, and, and, Um, know, kept the
show at the same quality we set out to do.
And so, you know, just sometimes consulting people, like if there's a major rewrite, the network's
asking for just getting more clarity on what they, you know, what they even mean. So you don't
do the same thing twice.
Drew: Mm
John: just consulting people like, you know, we actually once had a rewrite on when we did the
movie devil.
And we had like 50 people in the hall waiting to go do a reshoot on something. And the studio
and producer couldn't agree on what the rewrite should be. so we just kept writing stuff and
sending it and then studio would be like, Nope, this isn't it. And then we'd write something else.
And then the producer would be like, Nope, this isn't it.
we were just, and there was a point at which I just got totally frozen. I was just
Stacy: um,
John: in. The like panic face. I had, you know, my, my frozen panic face and, uh, um, you know,
where like literally there's 50 people in the hallway waiting to go shoot. And they're like, you
almost done. You, you haven't yet.
You have
Drew: hmm.
John: yet where everyone's
Stacy: part
is, the best part is you weren't even a credited writer on it.
Drew: I know, I know.
John: that's
Drew: It's true.
John: true.
Drew: It wasn't even
John: but,
Drew: your

job.
John: ones there,
Drew: Yeah.
John: were there.
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: I remember at that point, I called Stacy's brother, Stephen Chbosky, who's a, uh, well
known writer and, and, you know, has been a mentor to us. Um, I called him in a total panic. I
was like, I don't know what to do.
No one can agree on this. And there's 50 people in the hall and he just sort of taught like, okay,
just breathe. It's going to be okay. Like, you know, and I just needed somebody who, you know,
had been through that. In a way, like Drew and I, you know, we were still, know, pretty green.
We hadn't been through that and Steve
Stacy: Um,
John: and, um, and he's like, okay, so what are they, you know, like, and just talking it through
with him just gave me enough comfort that it helped us, you know, then find, find our way
through that scene and,

Stacy: number four, Write quote, the bad version. Everybody
uses the same language today, they call it the bad pitch. I'm going to give you the bad pitch.
We were just talking about it yesterday, and I'm sure this will come up in the notes thing too. I
actually think it's really sweet when people say, here's the bad pitch.
And that's a phrase I use all the time.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: it's basically just saying like, don't judge me.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: an
idea. Cause usually like half the time when I'm saying this is the bad pitch, I think it's pretty good

Drew: Yeah.
yeah,
Stacy: feel the same way, but it's just sort of going like, don't judge it.
It's not fully fleshed out. I haven't told, you know,
John: yeah,

Stacy: But yeah, the bad version or the bad pitch I took, gosh, what was her name? Ellen
Sandler. I took a, um, a class at, what's that thing in Burbank? It's like the writer's store. I can't
remember. It's some nerdy screenplay store. And they had a class with Ellen Sandler, who's a
screenwriter, a comedy writer.
And she up, she gave us all little, um. diplomas that, and you had to fill in your name. And so it
said like, Stacy Shabosky. And then in cursive, it's like, has permission to write badly. And you're
supposed to put that, take that up on your thing to just be like, not every draft is going to be
perfect.
Like you, sometimes you have to, to, to poop a turd to polish that turd.
Drew: it's true.
Stacy: It's
Drew: It just to dislodge things. I think the bad pitch can often, you know, just really kind of
dislodge a lot of great ideas around it, or if
it's like, we want to, you know, get to this end, you know, what's the bad version to get there?
And then, yeah, like you said, to polish that, um, it's, it's really helpful.
John: say in, uh, episode 10 of picket season two, I, I know I'm getting in the weeds on this, but
there was, we, we were trying to come up with the climax. This is actually the same thing. The,
uh, the location manager pitched an idea for, the climax, it just wasn't there and I didn't have it.
I didn't know. How to find it, you know what I mean? And, and so I was like, you know, I'll just, I'll
write something, I'll write anything in this spot, and people will give me notes. People have
thoughts. This will be flagged as a, an issue, and everyone will, you know, like people start
throwing in ideas.
And if I just got locked up and I was like, I don't know what to do. and just stayed there like the
overwhelm would build as I refuse to deliver something,
Drew: Yeah.
John: just delivering and just keeping things moving. You
Stacy: So like a placeholder. So you kind of wrote a placeholder.
John: I wrote a play, I did my best. You're like, I was like, I'll do my best the next, you know, I
always have a, a, a sand timer, a 20 minute sand timer.
This is actually a good trick.
Drew: I love that, too. I use that, too.
John: Yeah, I'll be like, I'll give it 20 minutes in 20 minutes. I have the scene written. Whatever
I've written is going out and And then I do it and I'm like, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad like,
you know, I I won't Base all my self esteem on this one scene
Drew: Mm hmm.
Stacy: Yeah, that's it right?
John: yeah I'll let I'll let it

Drew: It
John: and people have problems with it.
It won't be good. But that that's the path to a solution
Stacy: Mm.
John: so yeah, sometimes just allowing the bad version of something, you know, either
mentally, so you can try and write it or just even on the paper, can really help.
Stacy: That
Drew: climax was
Stacy: so many
Drew: re
Stacy: that I eventually just stopped reading them. I was like,
eh, let me know what else.
Drew: It's funny, we did
the same,
Stacy: ends.
Drew: same thing on
season one, the climax. Yeah. That
was something we went over and over and
over.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: It's so hard. It's
Drew: And then changed it and then changed it the week, you know, like the day before we shot
it basically.
Uh,
John: totally.
Stacy: It's, I mean, it
says so much, the climax is like, what is this tone? Are we going to go violent, nihilistic? Are we
going to go, like, what are we going to do? Is this going to be macro? Is it going to be micro?
know you guys are big fans of the micro climax. If you guys had your way, every movie would
end with two men hitting each other with a rock.

John: no,
Drew: It's like the Revenant, it's like the,
Revenant Climax, like that is a perfect Michael Climax, you know?
Um,
John: totally,
Drew: two men in deep
snow beating the hell out of each other, yeah,
Stacy: yeah, there you go. I meant that in a complimentary
Drew: yeah,
John: yeah, yeah, but your climax is like, okay. And the point of this whole season is, what
Stacy: Yeah,
and what were you,
Drew: what was the point?
John: a lot of things, you
Drew: we have a point?
John: uh,
Stacy: yeah,
John: yeah.
Stacy: hold your loved ones close? No, that's not it. I don't know. Number five, refocus on being
of service. I like this one. I think that's really, uh, really helpful to kind of take yourself out of
yourself for a minute. You know, I think that's always a really helpful exercise and you can
probably speak to this more, John, but, um, I like that idea of like, Your problem.
Drew: What you have is so urgent to you in that moment is, you know, not the most important
thing in the world. , that's
helpful to remember that. It's a good perspective. Um,
John: Yeah, it is. It is. And just the idea of like, like, I feel like there's two kinds of, you know,
leaders there's the, I am the boss and everyone will do, you know, everything I say. And then
there's the, the service leader, you know, the leader who shows up to help, to be the most loyal
servant to the project.
Drew: yeah.
John: I feel like we try to come at it from the more of the latter. Um, yeah, more the latter on our
best days, you know, maybe at our worst days, it's more like, no, but this is what I want, you
know, um, but I feel like when we're, when I'll speak for myself, like when I'm at my best, I, I feel
the most of service to the project and to the people working on the project where, yeah,

sometimes just looking for like going to, you know, going to set or into the writer's room and
being like, okay, who, Who needs a compliment today?
Who, who needs a
Stacy: mm,
John: on the back and like, Hey, you're doing great. Like who
Stacy: mm
John: from me today instead of it all being about me and what I want and what I'm struggling
with, what I'm
Drew: Mm-Hmm?
John: like, like
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: I help? In the midst of this and thinking about myself so much, you know,
Stacy: hmm,
John: the, the human beings I work with and, and it's surprising sometimes when you come into
a day with that mentality, you realize like, oh, this person is like been having like real medical
stuff
Do they, do they know if they need time off, like they can take it, you know what I mean? Like, or
whatever, whatever it is, like, what is the human thing? Someone needs to hear from you that
day and,
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: just focusing on connecting with the human beings around you, I find gets me out of my
own, neuroses or own, you know, uh, self doubt or anxiety in a way that really
Stacy: focus.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: when do you guys, uh, is there a practical time that you do that? I know some, some
people are big on greeting people in the morning. I know some people are big on thanking
everyone at night. Like when do you, when do you, I'm sure there's all sorts of like, Hey, there's
just a moment here that somebody is doing a setup and I just happened to be standing next to
the props guy.
I just happened to be standing next to scripty, whatever
you can connect then. But other than those little unexpected moments where you just have a
brief moment to connect with somebody, is there, is there a. A place or time you guys like to
connect?
John: One of my favorite times on set, you know, I'll speak to, you know, on set, I love showing
up early and going from actor to actor and just doing the tour and being like, how are you feeling
this morning? How things like you feel good with the scenes? Like, you know what I mean? It

just
Stacy: Hmm.
John: down the list and inevitably something will come up like, oh, I didn't, you know, I didn't
sleep well and I'm a little stressed about this.
It's like, you know, okay, I'll, I'll make sure I'm there for that scene or, you know, I'll, you know,
whatever, whatever, you know, sometimes they just need a little pep talk and sometimes just
seeing the look in their face on a given day, you can tell some, some days who's, who's, you
know, oh, this is going to be a hard day for this actor, you
Stacy: Hmm.
John: or this is going to
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: for this person.
Like you can just, you know, Feel it some days, you know, that
Stacy: Hmm.
John: days, you know, an actor shows up like king of the world
Stacy: Yeah.
John: days they show up and you can tell their, um, you know, they may have stuff going on in
their, you know, real life, um, or whatever. Like it's, I find morning is a really good time for check
ins, um, personally.
Drew: Yeah. I agree. I like checking with a cast. Uh, in the morning. I like, uh, I kind of do the
rounds at the beginning and at the end of the day. I think that's a good practice, just generally.
Uh, when it comes to like this, you know, when I'm feeling overwhelmed and focused on being of
service, I find that, um, I know something that can happen anytime during the day, just that
whatever the crazy urgency is and your, your brain at that moment, just to kind of do something
that doesn't serve that urgency at all for a little period of time to kind of remind yourself that it's, it
may not be as urgent as you think.
It may not be, um, quite as pressing as, uh, as it seems, you know, and, and you're really, you
know, in service to the show. I think that's one thing too. I think all of us have that, you know, I
need to fix this thing. I need to find a solution. I need to come up with this great idea. That's
going to solve the save the day.
And, uh, You know, we're all basically in service to the same greater thing. It's a, it's bigger than
that day. It's bigger than that scene. It's bigger than that line of dialogue. It's, it's, uh, this kind of
living, breathing organism that we're all serving at the end of the day. And, um, and whatever the
solution is to that could come from anywhere.
And it could, I think I like that Archimedes story so much. It's like a, you know, the taking a break
and doing something that doesn't seem to be serving that end at all.
Um, could be where the solution comes from.
it often doesn't come from banging your head against the wall saying I need to figure this out
right now that it

doesn't usually come from that.
Uh, I
guess that's The point.
Stacy: thing, I was like, wait, what? But if it was gold plated brass, would it not float?
Drew: I know, I was trying to...
Stacy: like, do they, did he know the weights of all the different
alloys? Eh.
John: gold is, gold is heavier than other metals.
Drew: Ah,
John: yeah,
Stacy: Ah,
John: it displaces,
Stacy: see.
John: in a way. And realized in water that weight equals, uh, water displacement, not volume.
It's weight equals volume displacement.
Stacy: Oh,
Drew: that's...
Stacy: that.
John: Yeah,
Stacy: So if you had a little nugget of something real heavy... God, science is so confusing, isn't
it? Every time I talk about it, I feel like a dumb child. So if you had a little pea sized thing of
something incredibly heavy and you put it in the tub, it would Is that true?
John: apparently, yeah,
Stacy: That makes Nautilus... That's magic,
Drew: that is magic.
John: It's like when you drop a heavy thing in a light thing off, you know, the
Drew: And they follow the, same rate. It
John: like they
Drew: doesn't make sense. Yeah.

Stacy: believe it. I still don't
Drew: I still don't believe it either. Yeah.
John: no, it's
Drew: Hahahaha.
John: dark magic.
Stacy: The AI is listening to us. They're like, what fools will take over?
Drew: is so easy.
Stacy: It's so easy.
John: They don't know anything. in summary, you know, when you're facing overwhelm, can try
one of these five things, admit you don't know, a break. the room, your producer's network, a
trusted advisor. you can write the bad version of the scene refocus on being of service.
Stacy: All of those are so much healthier than going out with your cast at night and drinking for
four
Drew: Yeah, exactly. The opposite side of that is go have 12 drinks with your cast and, uh, sleep
for
three hours and hope for the best.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: That's a
young man's solution. All
John: like, take a break. Check, you
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: right. If you like our show, would you please consider taking a minute to subscribe and
rate us highly wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend about us, um, that all
really helps us to find our audience. Thank you so much. We appreciate you being here and we
will see you next week.
Drew: Thank you all.
John: Thank y'all.