This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors

Stacy: I'm like Kim Kardashian. I broke the internet. But
instead of with my body, it was with my razzmatazz.
Rich: ha ha.
Stacy: Oh my god, it's here at last. It's our pod, it's our podcast. it called? The showrunner show. The topic's very niche, so away we go. I don't know, kind
Drew: I like it.
Stacy: in, but.
Drew: I like that. The topic's very niche. I like that.
Rich: That was impressed. ha ha ha
Stacy: It's the same lyrics as, um, Making Craig Do. What's it called? And do you own a horse? Before that, it was all exactly the same.

Drew: Hello everyone. Welcome to the showrunner show where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of showrunning for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just wants to know how it's all made. I'm Drew Dowdle,
John: John Eric Dowdle.
Stacy: and I'm Stacey Shabosky. Thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be a really good one. This is a part two.
Drew: part two with
Stacy: Rich Fox.
John: Yep, this week we want to give you some tools for fixing a episode. Like if you're, you know, you show up in editorial and for whatever reason this episode doesn't quite work. It may not have, you know, the pace maybe it wasn't, you know, your season's best episode or just went off the rails for some reason.
And you show up and you watch an episode and you're like, Ooh, this doesn't work. Uh, we wanted to just talk through like some, some go to tools, you know, to have in your toolbox. for that kind of, uh,
uh, situation.
Stacy: you fix it? Hmm.
Drew: And I would just want to say too, like this happens on every season of TV. There will be an episode usually somewhere in the middle, that isn't just, isn't working and it's not anyone's fault per se. It just is
kind of the way it goes. And, uh, but the, the upside is it is fixable. It's always fixable.
John: It's
always fair. And
Drew: Almost.
John: this, has happened on our own,
Rich: Uh huh, uh
John: that like, you know,
Drew: totally.
John: the things, you know, we direct ourselves and we're like, Oh, what, what did I do wrong? You know, and then you put it through the works and. It ends up being like, sometimes it's like the great episodes right out of the gate are the ones you don't spend enough time on.
And those
Stacy: Hmm.
John: when you actually watch the season. And it's the broken episodes that you spend all your
Drew: Uh,
John: end up becoming the sparkling jewels
Drew: it's
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
John: do you find that too?
Rich: Yeah, I love this topic, it's so much fun to talk about and think about, because like you said, it always happens every season, there's always going to be a dud, and like you said, it's usually no one's fault. Sometimes I find that like, in a cross boarded episode, one of them is amazing, and one of them, like, totally falls flat, and it's the same director, so
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: that happen?
Um, I don't know, my own personal speculation is maybe it's hard for everyone to track like two episodes at a time, and everyone had the story very focused. On one episode
Stacy: Oh,
Rich: just kind of shot and not really like as engaging Because that's how I feel when I see an episode that falls flat The one thing I feel like they have in common is like there's not a confidence in the storytelling, right?
It's like The scenes are there. It's maybe not even terrible It's just we don't understand as an audience. Like what are we getting from this? Like
Stacy: hmm.
Rich: dynamic in that way It's not It's not drawing me in, you know, and who knows why that happened, whether it was the script or again, whether when it was being shot, there just wasn't as much attention to detail paid to some of those like points.
But like you said, the good news is in editorial, you can address a lot of them. You can do things to prop it up, to make the episode feel more confident and more purposeful is a word I like to use.
Yeah.
Drew: Mm
Stacy: purposeful. That's good. Yeah.
Drew: I love that too.
yeah, like you're saying, you can't sometimes totally put your finger on what's not working about it. It's just, it's not engaging you. And that's such a, like, Esoteric idea of like, why isn't it engaging you? And it's, yeah, uh, I like the word purposeful.
That's really good.
Stacy: What about meaning? Could you, cause that's, at first I thought you were talking about meaning. I'm like, I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to mean in the story. Like, what does it mean for the characters and their relationship? What does it mean for the overall plot? Like, why did you bother to put the scene in?
Like, what does it mean in terms of how things have changed for this character or this relationship or this evolving story? Is that another way to look at it?
Rich: yeah, that's a great way to look at it. Cause I feel like with episodes like this, you almost have to go back to the beginning. You know, you almost have to say, why did we write this episode? You know, why is this part of our story, right? And really think about what is the, if we have to communicate one thing in this episode, what is it?
Because sometimes in an episode that's not working, there's maybe too many ideas,
Stacy: Ah.
Rich: lot of times there's a lot of exciting things going on, but we're not there. Pulled through the narrative with like one thread.
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: that comp taking a step back and having that conversation know with the writers about like what was the purpose of this initially?
Maybe that got lost along the way.
Maybe we can now rediscover it in the editing process Maybe these other threads of the story aren't important and we lower them and we find a way to bring up the main story. If we can achieve that
Stacy: I love that.
John: that's great. And how, how do you. Bring up the main story, like how do you, how do you bring that more to the foreground? What are, what are some, you know, like, uh, to drill into that, that process?
Rich: Yeah, it's a really good question, because it's, it's a little intimidating at first, and I find sometimes, like, when I'm to start fresh on an episode, um, you know, I find sometimes it's like, take all the music out, right? Like, have it be now a fresh experience, because you get attached to certain things, and certain transitions.
It's like, get
rid of that, and, and, and just look at the story, right? And just re Think every scene in terms of like what is it telling us and really be open to Not what you were trying to do when you cut it or someone else cut it, but like what is it telling me now? And then sometimes you just start seeing new things like well, yeah, this scene is sometimes you're like Well, this scene is almost the opposite of what?
the intention is for this episode. And I didn't even realize that the first time I caught it or when I put in the episode, but now I'm realizing it's like, no, it's making this character seem the opposite of what we want, or it's confusing the story. It's giving me another thought that is almost in contrast to the main thought.
So how do you address that? do you
cut out? Or do you just kind of like, hide it in a scene? I mean, as you know, with performances, right, there's a lot you can do to kind of hide a performance that's not as good and not have them be on camera as much. And, you know, those are similar things with story points of like, have less of it, you know?
Have, uh, Uh, a scene, stop early, you know, maybe, maybe it's not cutting a whole scene. I find one trick in these episodes is like, what's the part of the scene that's helping us? I
usually start with that. Maybe it's these three lines are, are, are helping us with the story and the beginning of the scene and the ending of the scene is not.
So
maybe there's a way to just come into those three lines and get out. Now all of a sudden you've emphasized the part of the story. That you do want, you
Stacy: Mm.
Rich: that I find with these episodes is like, is there a way to connect scenes that maybe. In the writing weren't connected, but now we say, okay, what if we put like one piece of score through these four scenes and take the audience on a little mini journey here of
Stacy: Oh.
Rich: all one thought, you know, and again, that's a way to make it feel purposeful.
Like we intended to do this. We
Stacy: Mm.
Rich: to be a montage or, or a sequence, whereas maybe it wasn't in the script and maybe it wasn't in the first version of editorial. But now We're, we're, we're making it that,
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: So,
you know, again, thinking of sequences, like, how do you connect?
Because, like, when you're watching a show, it's like, scenes build on other scenes. The momentum from one scene carries into the next scene. And I think in some episodes that aren't working, you lose that, right? Like, energy sometimes will deflate. You get to a good point, and then... A second half of a scene, maybe it dies and you lose the focus.
Stacy: Mm.
Rich: just try something bold. It might not work, but what if you just like this part of this scene, this part of this scene, this part of this scene, put some music through it and see what happens. And maybe all of a sudden new connections are made between those of those scenes. Yeah,
John: I love that. I,
Drew: I.
love that too.
John: I once heard an editor say, kind of a version of this, like, they, they were like, Oh, in the writer's room with the studio network, the studio network will be like, Hey, we don't, we don't touch on this storyline in act two and in act three, like make sure we wind the storyline through every act.
And, and so what happens in the writer's room is you tend to like take these storylines and pepper them throughout the entire episode.
Stacy: Totally.
John: And he said, you know, when an episode's not working, one thing you can do is just cluster all the storylines together and, uh, not worry about touching every storyline in every act, but like clustering and it's a version of what you're saying is like creating sequences out of scenes instead of every scene is resetting to a whole new storyline
Drew: Yeah.
John: sometimes on the page, what, what, what is asked for, you know, is one thing, but in editorial, really the, the, um, flow is better, you know, when you put things together and, uh, um,
Drew: Yeah.
John: it may look, you know, irregular on a script page in, in the flow of the episode, it actually really
works.
Drew: Yeah, I would like to just expand on that as it always amazes me how much know, how often in the notes, there's that opinion of like, yeah, pepper out the storylines like kind of even spread through the episode. You get those notes a lot in the writer's room and then you can deliver something in post that totally reshuffles the deck of that episode.
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: no one has any, you know, you never get that note in post. You never get, well, you know, can we spread that out? Like it's, it's a weird disconnect between, it might be the same people giving you the notes and the scripts as in post, but like such an. You know, disconnect in some reason, for some reason when you're, you know, you almost have total flexibility to kind of restructure an episode and post without, without any pushback, you know,
Stacy: Wow.
Drew: it's, uh, it's kind of amazing and, uh, you know, and to your point, Rich, I remember one, this was not an episode we were doing together, but I think mid season episodes can tend to have the, you know, It can kind of fall victim to that idea of like, have to move six story lines forward, you
Stacy: Uh.
Drew: successfully do that in the episode, but it doesn't, know, lack that common thread or
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: thing.
It can just kind of feel like pushing everything forward and, and could be successful doing that, but it somehow doesn't engage you. And, uh, I had one episode in Joe Pickett where it's like. You know, middle of the episode, Joe starts his day, just does his things, got some normal things going on, and then, like, the important thing happens.
And then Mary Beth, you know, goes about her day, and couple, you know, does a couple things, and then the important thing happens. And, uh, and it was just like a slog, you know, just kind of editing it as it was written. It just felt like a slog to get through this. And, uh, the editor on that one was just like, we just trim this way down, we jump back and forth between the two, we give it a great piece of music and we just make it like this one day's montage that leads to the big thing for both of them at the same time and like, that like idea and that recut just made it all completely work and it was just
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: different than it was on the page and it's, uh, you know, of exactly what you're saying.
It's just, you know, um, of getting to the core of what, what's important here and what, you know, how quickly can we get to the important thing and kind of just fly through this montage stuff. And, uh, know, sometimes you just need a montage.
Stacy: There's going to be a montage. Remember how funny that was? There's going to be a montage. Just kill me. Okay. So that would be like more intercutting. That would be
Drew: More
Stacy: okay. Sometimes.
Drew: maybe the point I'm trying to make, you know, in all this long winded way is, uh, Sometimes it's just abandoning the structure of
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: and saying, put it aside completely and how do we make this sing with what we have? And it, and it often, um, can look very, very different than what it did on the page.
Stacy: In the writer's room, like we actually, so, you know, each, whether you're using writer's room pro because you're doing a virtual room or whether you're in person or you're actually using like colored index cards, you know, each storyline gets its own color. So maybe the a line is blue and then maybe like, you know, one of the subplots is pink and, and they're, and they're attached to characters, obviously, because each, you know, so maybe Joe's blue and Mary Beth is pink, not to be all gendered stuff, but, and then honestly, we'll.
At some point, you shuffle the cards, you have all those storylines, then you start mixing them up and being like, Oh, that'd be a good act out. Oh, that'd be a good, you know, and you start mixing them up and what you want in the room will actually like sit back and congratulate each other. We'll go, Oh, that's very pretty.
It's very pretty cards. Like we want it to look like a pretty little blue, pink, white, white, blue. Like we want it to be this pretty little,
Drew: even spread.
Stacy: Oh, yeah. A nice, even spread of delightful little colors. Um, and we kind of pat ourselves on the back. And I wonder if that's just, if it's just gotta be that way, because you're working with two different. Media, medium, media is media, the plural, like a script is a written thing. You're, you're reading it and a bunch of people have to read it and a bunch of people have to read it over the course, potentially of years without getting bored. So it has to work. In that medium, you know, but then when it's actually a TV show, it's a completely different medium that nobody's reading it anymore.
And so maybe it's, maybe it's not because I hear that and I go, Oh, we should skip over the part where we mix up the colors. We should just go ahead and, and bulk them together at first. Let's just skip over that process. But I kind of suspect maybe you couldn't.
John: It's a funny thing. It's like, it reminds me kind of of like the, the Mike Tyson quote. It's I I'm paraphrasing, but it's
like, uh,
Stacy: It's not something you hear every day.
John: it's like, it's easy to have a plan until I get punched in the face.
Drew: Heheh, hehehehe. Heheh,
John: you're like, everything that was precious to you,
Drew: hehehehe. Hehehehehe.
John: you're like,
Drew: Hehehehe,
John: let's just make this episode, whatever it takes.
Let's make this episode. Great. Um, I don't get like, there was a scene I loved and I, like, absolutely insisted be shot, even though everyone was like, not sure this works. I'm not sure this works. It's like, it's going to be great. And then you see it and it bogs down the episode and you're like, kill it.
Like, I don't
Drew: get
Stacy: Are we, are we talking about the goat mayor?
John: that's exactly what I was talking about. Yeah,
I
Stacy: if I were the, if I were the Joe Pickett showrunner, not only would that goat mayor scene still be there, it would be the opening scene. I don't know how I'd make it work. Rich, we'll figure it out together.
Drew: ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Ah... Gary
Rich: I think, I think,
John: Oh.
Rich: I think, I think we cut that scene.
Stacy: yeah.
Rich: I
Stacy: yeah.
Rich: tried,
John: That was you and me together.
Yeah.
Rich: Yeah.
we went through, we went through a couple of versions
of like, okay, if this scene can exist, maybe this way, maybe that way. We tried, I think, three different ways and eventually you said, you know what, we're, we're abandoning this one.
This one's out the
window. It can't be saved. And that's.
Drew: my favorite part of the Gary the goat saga is, uh, that scene no longer exists in the show, but there's still a gigantic framed portrait of a goat in the police station for apparent reason.
John: Well, they
Drew: Oh no, they
Rich: Okay.
Stacy: He
was in deer
days. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Drew: He does it. That's
Stacy: PETA. Did PETA come down hard on you guys for killing the goat?
John: I mean, in editorial, not in
Drew: Yeah, yeah,
John: Um,
Drew: to your point, John, too, like the, you know, in the writing process, it's like, there's so many rules and so many like, Oh, you know, you can't not see your lead until act three, you
Stacy: Exactly. Yeah.
Drew: We have to see that, you know, our lead in act one, and then you get an editorial and none of those rules exist.
Like, know, it works better. You know, nobody misses your lead at all until act three. It's fine. You're at minute 20 and it's cool. And, uh, yeah, it just, he suddenly. have
Stacy: Wait, I gotta, I gotta ask. Cause like I said, I haven't really done this process. Do you really mean that like none of the rules apply or do you mean none of the rules apply when the episode is bad? Do the, do the rules usually apply?
Drew: Yeah, I think
Stacy: Is this anarchy?
Drew: I think if it works better, you can see the episode and you can tell it works better, uh, you know, doing something unconventional, then yeah, I think it, I think very few rules apply in editorial, honestly.
John: I think there's principles that help you get there though.
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, I, I liked, you know, one of the things you were saying drew is like just the episode, like defining, you know, defining what this episode should be. And then starting that storyline earlier,
Drew: Yeah. whatever it is. yeah.
John: going to pull a storyline forward, like. Have it happen earlier in the episode, like often, often it's the, you know, I find like, it's the coming into the episode, it may just be setting up the episode a little too much, or, you know, like laying the groundwork for the episode and getting right into it, even if, even if you then do like five days earlier, you know what I mean, like, but getting into it fast, you know, um, something big and bold up top to like really pull you in.
Um, Um, hopefully it's the main storyline, uh, I, I do find like that as a principle, I, I find really can be helpful and just give the audience the, the feeling of like, okay, I know what I'm watching, I know what this episode is about now I can relax into it as opposed to sometimes if it takes too long to like, what, what is this, I don't know what I'm supposed to be tracking
Stacy: Uh.
John: I mean,
Stacy: Yeah,
Rich: Yeah, I love everything you guys are saying about the difference between like the script process and the rules and the editorial process, you know, and that it's so important to be aware of that as we like start making changes to an episode, you know, and try to make it work because like you said, it's like.
So, for example, you know, I find when, often in a script, when two scenes are intercut together, it's not always successful, right? I think it's gotta be very hard without seeing the performances and without feeling every beat as it's played to know how to cut from one to the other.
Drew: Yeah,
Rich: when I have two scenes together, that kind of tells me how I can go back and forth between them.
I have so much more information about, like, where is that pause? Where does
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: this little part of the scene end, and that connects to this part of this scene? I find I can be a lot more successful sometimes in, like, making two scenes combine into one. that sometimes is a great way to, something to do on an episode like this.
That's not... feeling purposeful is to like, what if these two scenes are together? What's the story that's in both of these scenes that can ping pong off each other? And that's just, I think you would never know that when you were writing the two scenes. Cause they both work probably on paper individually.
Great. But when you look at the whole episode and a story is not popping, suddenly that's an opportunity to like combine these two scenes into one. And again, it's just, you know, the editorial process makes it possible. Whereas it probably wasn't before.
Stacy: Hmm.
John: that's
great.
Drew: that is great. Maybe we could, uh, talk about the note that every episode gets a hundred percent of the time in our experiences. Great episode. Can you take five minutes out of it? You know, that's, that's, that's a note you get. Every time. And I'd say as a general rule, what starts as an editor's cut, goes to a director's cut, goes to a showrunner cut, to the studio and network cuts, it gets, it tends to get shorter every step of the way.
And, uh, um, you know, maybe we could talk about like, you know, just some of the tricks as far as. Okay. You just have a, whatever reason, a mandate that five minutes need to come out. And, uh, what, what, is your approach, um, going through? If, if the showrunner saying, I love everything in this episode, how do we find five
Rich: Right,
Drew: know, um, that's going to break the episode. I love it all. Like, what are we going to do? Um,
Rich: Right. So great question. You know, you need to take five minutes out of an episode, and there's not a whole scene to cut, there's not everything obvious, and everyone's attached to different parts, you know. I will find, usually at first, I do want to look for some chunks to cut, right? I don't want to start trimming ten frames here, ten frames there, because then, You know, you're, you're changing the pacing of the whole episode and just squeezing it down.
I had one showrunner say, you know, there's always more air to cut. We don't need to cut any dialogue, you can always find air. And, you know, this was in an, an NBC show where you did, had to get down to an exact time. So there was something to that, that sometimes the air... Can go. He wasn't completely wrong.
That is one trick is like going through a scene and realizing Oh the space between these two lines is how they performed it You know, that's not necessarily the space that we need between them to play the scene and so could do an air pass and maybe take out a minute or two and It probably will make the episode better if I'm careful And I don't ruin a performance if I'm very deliberate about it.
The episode will, will, will feel paced up in a way that's nice. So that's one trick, but usually I don't think cutting air is going to get you all the way there, you know, and you
reach a point where you don't want to mess with it anymore. Cause the pacing is good. So I find there's almost always, you know, a couplet in a scene that can go, even if everyone thinks the scene is perfect, sometimes I'll just.
Try it and see if anyone misses it, you know, I may ask I might not ask because if you see the scene and it's great And then I'll tell you is it okay if I that I cut those lines out just so you're aware of it I'm not trying to like sneak it past you but at least then you're looking for like 10 second chunks that really Help and again a lot of times the scene just got stronger.
It's like well, we
didn't need that back and forth That's actually repetitive of what they said over here
Stacy: Will you please define a couple of for me in this? I think I know what you're saying, but I've, I've never heard that in these terms.
Rich: Oh, I think of a couplet as like an exchange between two characters. It's like one character will say something, the other character will respond. You know, that I think of as like one couplet. And a lot of times I look for those in terms of what to trim out of a scene because
a
Stacy: Great.
Rich: you, look at the written word and you realize, Oh, well, if we go from this exchange to this exchange, it flows perfectly.
Like these two lines are actually not necessary. And I'm sure there was some reason they were written. And a lot of times when I talk to writers, it's like, Oh yeah, we got these notes. We kind of had to. Squeeze this idea into the scene, and
Stacy: Ah,
Rich: where you're given notes, you squeeze something into a scene, but now this is our opportunity take those unnecessary ideas out of the scene,
Stacy: yeah.
Rich: you're not gonna get the note anymore.
You're gonna get the notes the scene's too The same person that told you to put more into the scene is now gonna
tell
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Rich: too long.
Drew: exactly
Stacy: Um,
Rich: cut? And it's like, okay, great, so now I can ignore everything you said before.
And take out everything that we don't need. And like, usually in a scene there's, there's those moments where, again, the flow is stronger without a couple of the diversions.
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: so,
Stacy: I...
bet it's more realistic too, to human nature, because I feel like that's one thing when you listen to how people actually talk in real life, it's definitely not as rational or as, um, it makes more jumps than it does usually in written dialogue, you know, in written dialogue. And I can definitely be like, for myself, I have a tendency to want to squeeze in every cool line that anyone thought of and to handhold the audience all the way through.
So there's a logical, like, Oh, we go from this topic and resolve it. Now we're at this topic. And that's not really how people. Speak, you know, so it makes sense to me that I would also be probably artistically, uh, more human to pull out some chunks.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah. And
Drew: That's
John: like to expand to on the notes, the notes idea. Like if, if you're willing to trust the process, you know, and play the long game with notes and, you know, as a show runner, like if you get notes that like, Hey, we really want to insert this idea into the scene. You can add it and then you can kind of use editorial as a way to, filter things back out.
Um, and you know what I mean? If you, if you still find it doesn't fit, like you don't have to fight every battle on the day if you're playing the long game and you have a, like a long term way of looking at it, there's always going to be time to take out the line. If you don't
like really believe it's a perfect, um, you can try it, you know. But yeah, then you're not being combative, uh, but you're still potentially getting, uh, getting the scene the way
Drew: yeah.
Stacy: Mm.
John: you
Drew: And once in a while that ad might actually be helpful, but
you know, but when it's not and it is a diversion, usually the actors will flag it on the day of like, why are we, why do we have to say this? And you
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: them like, Hey, you know, it's a note. Let's just keep it in the scene. But you know, if it doesn't work in editorial, you'll take it out and you'll have the opportunity to, to do that then.
Cause Rich, you're so right. Like the same person who wanted it in is going to then tell you the
scenes too long. And so,
John: It's
Drew: um, and nobody is tracking anything from the writer's room to editorial, you know,
as far as like,
Rich: Right.
Drew: they didn't take this note from, you know,
the writer's
Stacy: Right.
Drew: paying that close of attention.
I don't
think. And it's just all about how,
John: a
fight,
Drew: yeah, especially if there
Stacy: Right.
Drew: Then they're paying
Stacy: Yeah.
John: was
Drew: Yeah.
John: on both sides and
Drew: Yeah.
John: a thing,
Drew: Yeah.
John: everyone's watching
that line.
Drew: Yeah, that's true.
John: a
Stacy: Right.
John: remembers it.
Stacy: Right.
Drew: good point. That is such a good point.
Stacy: Being the covering writer on set, something that would come up a lot is actors, uh, might want to take out a line. Like, like you guys are saying, like, I don't know, like, this doesn't really fit. Could I just not say it? And usually I would call you guys like, they don't like it. It doesn't fit.
Can we take it out? And your point, uh, I'd say 99 times out of a hundred is, well, you can get rid of something that you shot, but you can't not shoot something and then have it suddenly appear as if by magic. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't, it doesn't work in reverse.
Drew: it's exactly
right. And usually actors will, will play ball. Even if
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: of saying if we don't need it, we'll cut it. And, you know, usually actors will, will play ball unless they just really feel so strongly about it.
And then,
Stacy: Right. Uh,
John: you And if they
Drew: if they trust you
Stacy: yeah. Hmm. Hmm.
John: do a good job in editorial, cause some actors have been burned
Stacy: Hmm.
John: You know, like, okay, I'll do this line even though I don't believe in it, and then that's, you know, the, the centerpiece of the scene, you know, when they see the episode, and, um, and it, you know what I mean, like, if, you know, I, I feel like we've created, you know, knock on wood, you know, some real trust with our actors and, and on our shows, and, and it helps, it helps us have that conversation, like, I, you know, You know, we'll put eyes on it if it like, know that I could see that not always, uh, being
Drew: Yeah, yeah,
John: know?
Drew: yeah. But, you know, back to Rich's, you know, points about pacing up a scene. And I have to say one of my favorite, uh, experiences that totally proves me wrong every time is when there's a scene that's like, let's say it's three minutes long and, um, and I love it. I think it's just perfect. I don't want to take out anything.
And then, you know, Rich, you'll come and be like, I found a way to shrink that scene. I'm like, no, no, but it's great. It's great. It's great. And then you see like the one minute version of that scene. And it's like, God damn, he's right. It's so good. It's so good. And I didn't need any of those things I thought I needed.
And it's so quick in like impactful and it's in its brevity. Um, that ceases to blow my mind. How many times I'm. Because I can tend to be too precious about, you know, at least my own episodes, I definitely am. But that always shocks me and amazes me and then just makes me happy when I see how often less is more.
And, you
know, you guys are rich in particular. So good at finding the core of what matters in a scene and not, you know, lingering. And that's, uh, there's value in that.
John: Yeah.
Rich: Right.
always great to, like, give it a try, you
know, and try a scene and be open to the shorter version, and there's times when it's not better, you know, and
there's, that's
Stacy: Um, Uh, Uh,
Rich: like, I trust you guys to,
like, I know I can experiment with something and push it a little bit and try, and that you guys are gonna watch it with fresh eyes
and say, you know what, I missed. Or we had something before that we lost. I mean, that happens too, right?
Drew: Definitely.
Rich: I'm like, we can lose these lines. And you guys are like, no, that's actually really important. It plays into the next episode. Or, you know, this is, this is why this is important. You know, and that's where, you know, it's good to just be open to try things.
But also, it's good to say, nope, you know, we tried this. There was a note. We have ruined the scene, you
Stacy: yeah.
Rich: the confidence to say, we're going back to this version of the scene that we like, and we're going to tell them we're, we're just not doing this note because
we know we made it worse.
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: It really is. You have to almost push it too far to then bring it back to see like,
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: Yes.
Drew: shortest version of the scene that works before we break it? And then, you know, John and I, you and I do this all the time where, you know, you're so good at, to say, like, let's just, you know, shrink it to absolutely what we need.
You can, you can be so good at being non precious and then I'll be like, what about, you know, this, these two couplets are really important. I think we really
Stacy: Ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha. Totally. John, start from scratch, Dowdle. I feel like you will throw out an entire draft and I'll, I'll, I'll like cling to my one line like Nooooo! Like, let's just write the whole thing from scratch. Like, what? No!
John: I know I
Stacy: ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
John: I do. I, I am a,
Stacy: Rich, do you
John: the a d d side of me is
Stacy: Oh. Ah
John: let's change everything, you
Stacy: That's making all the oop. Hmm.
do you, uh, When you look at it, like, big picture, do you also try to, again, I don't know anything about editing, editing. Do you try to mix up the rhythm of the scenes? That if it falls into a pattern, like, each scene is two and a half minutes long, would it, you know, kind of zone everyone out? Are you supposed to mix it up?
Rich: Yes, I think that is a great point, because I think, you know, in an episode that's not working, sometimes it's not dynamic enough, that's another word I
Stacy: Dynamic.
Rich: like the scenes are all cut a little bit straightforward in a way that you'd expect, and the scenes are about the same length, you know, and the music is kind of consistent, sometimes the music is just kind of always there, so, making it more dynamic is really important, right, whether, yeah, it's like finding like highs and lows, you know, like, let's have this part Yeah.
pace up so that when we slow down for this longer scene, we've kind of earned it. You know, I'm always, always like to feel the energy of an episode. I think that's another thing I hone in on when an episode is not working, right? It's like, where is the energy? You know, there's like
Stacy: Mm.
Rich: sequences are so exciting and that energy carries into the next part.
And then. You can settle into a very slow sequence and it feels great to do that, right?
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: times when an episode has been slow and then you settle into another slow sequence and now you're just completely bored
and that slow part is the same, right?
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: work or not work depending on what came before it.
So to your point, yeah, finding places where if we pace up this part and make it more exciting, then this part's going to work great when it's slow. I find that applies to music. Sometimes it needs to be more dynamic. Sometimes it needs to get a lot bigger at points and really become about the music.
And then other times just completely go away for a long time and make sure you're leaving enough time that it's dry. So the
Stacy: Mm.
Rich: doesn't get used to like, there's always music in the background, you
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: you more. When it's silent and then all of a sudden something happens. So yeah, that's a really good, like kind of rethink on an episode is like the pacing of scenes, the ups and downs and the music and how all that affects the energy of what's pulling people through.
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: that's so articulately said. I love that. Just like the same exact scene can
feel totally different just depending on what comes before it. I think that's, uh, It's hard not to, as a director, a showrunner, like, look at your notes from scene to scene and think of each scene almost as an individual entity, but it's, it's not that, and, uh, that's such a, I don't know, that's really eye opening.
Rich: Right. And sometimes I think it's something that people don't do is to take a step back and to watch a whole episode, you
know, it's
Stacy: Oh, yeah.
Rich: on like this scene, this scene. Sometimes you just need to watch the whole thing and don't press stop and watch it right
because again it all builds on itself and it all affects each other and sometimes you're going to make discoveries about the pacing by watching it through and having the whole experience.
XD
John: score or more music and less music like that being a one of those, you know, knobs, you can turn back and forth. And sometimes it's counterintuitive. We had a an action movie we did, you know, a while back that We saw an, like an early editor's cut and it had like kind of wall to wall, like da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, like, you know, like kind of action, like action y music.
And there
Stacy: Yeah.
John: of it and the experience watching that, the film in that way was kind of exhausting. And it just felt like the music was trying to push the audience to feel something. That it wasn't trusting was there or something, you know,
Stacy: Mm.
John: we, what we did was we took out the music and then we said, what if we scored this action movie, like a drum, like, what if we scored the emotion, not the action and we put music back in totally a different, you know, focus and suddenly it felt so much more exciting, even though you're taking out the exciting music and putting in something that.
It, almost seems like it's trying to like calm it down and that, that interplay, you know, uh, really brought it to life in a way. sometimes you, you know, you need music to carry you through a scene, but sometimes that music actually makes the scene feel slower.
Stacy: Do you ever watch stuff with subtitles on like, I'll do that sometimes when I'm like, I'll work out and watch a show at the same time. So I'll throw the subtitles on, or if people are British and I'm like, I can't, I don't understand a damn word, I'll put the subtitles on and they always, I don't know who does the subtitles, but they always include an adjective or two for the music when the score will begin.
And they do such a great job. They'll do like wistful, upbeat music. And you're like,
Drew: They do.
Stacy: it
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: is, it is wistful and upbeat, they nailed it. Edgy, energetic music. Yeah.
Drew: Is there any, like, other sonic devices you can think of when a scene is playing a little too slow and you want to keep it, like, free of, you know, the composer score, you want to, or temp music? Is there, what are other tricks in terms of sound that can really help, uh, um, tension to a scene or add a little, you know, extra texture?
Rich: Yeah, I mean, sound design is underrated and um, it should be thought of I think almost the same And the same level as the music, you know, you
guys are great at writing sequences that are abstract and sometimes dreamy, right? And, you know, there's all kinds of techniques we can do to bring that out with the sound design.
And sometimes having that reverb on dialogue, um, is great. Sometimes having the dialogue become abstract is a great trick, right?
Like if, if we're in a character's head You know, we don't want to be as aware of what people are saying. We want to communicate that the character is lost in his own thoughts.
Having those words kind of disappear, you know, into the distance is like a great trick. Um, and you know, those are things that might be written into the script or might not be. It might be something that we kind of come up with to give the scene a little bit more shape, you know, and to, really reinforce the idea that, like, no, this is an internal moment, you know?
Let's just hear this wind that's not really there, but it's in the character's head, you know? Let's have the other character's voices So, those are things that I'm always looking for, you know? And again, in times when, why isn't this coming through? Why isn't this dynamic or exciting, you know?
Sometimes there are things we can do with sound that's not just music, to emphasize that.
Drew: Yeah.
John: that. I
Drew: I love that too.
John: Almost
Drew: find that.
John: just generally I find like, you know, I, I tend to write a little too verbose. Um, and I find just less words, like anything you can find to do less words, create more quiet contemplate, like quiet moments of. or thought or, you know, something happening visually, can often be much, much more powerful.
And I, I love what you're saying, like little tricks like that to thin out some of the words, you
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: Yeah.
this is a trick I'd say I learned from another editor. Sometimes one of his go to's was like, take all the dialogue out of the scene and just have it be visual, right? And
maybe that
is now playing other music, but sometimes that will like, blow your mind.
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: like, watching these characters is communicating what we need.
And not hearing the words, again, is like such a strong choice in this case, to make it more abstract and more poetic.
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: and those are fun things to kind of look for when you're watching an episode, just look for opportunities to do that. That's something I'm thinking about.
John: I love
Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
Stacy: think that works for comedy too. I'm thinking of, there are so many times where like somebody will be listening to something, somebody in my family will be listening to something with AirPods. So you can't, or like you're on an airplane. You ever do that when you're standing in line on the airplane for the bathroom and then you end up just watching people's screens.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: do that? You're watching the screens, so you can't hear it, but you can see. And especially if it's comedy, you know exactly what's going on. Oh, this one's mad at that one. He's surprised about something. The other one rolls his eyes. Like you always do that. The other one gets irritated by that.
You don't have to hear what's happening. It's all, you see the little volleyball back and forth, usually of emotions. And it can be quite, you know, you can get really pulled in.
Drew: It's true. I love the like thinking sound design too and in the process of shooting too, I think is always something I've leaned on more and more, I think, over time to have like, okay, we're in a diner. Is there, I mean, the obvious is music playing in this a diegetic music that plays within, you know, a jukebox in the diner or is there, you know, A screen door on the back of that diner that's kind of blowing in the wind, is there, you
Stacy: Oh yeah.
Drew: of those beds that can, you know, you can really do so much in terms of just adding a little bit of tension,
Stacy: Wow.
Drew: if you're in a car, you know, there's a radio in that car, is one of the windows down a little bit, is it, you know, um, you
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: is one of the, you know, car doesn't run perfectly well as a sound that kind of gets under your skin a little bit, you know, there's, there's so many of those things to, you know, to think about when you get an editorial and, you know, the sound designers will ultimately go and make that, you know, all really, sparkle and, uh, but it's really like you, Rich, when we're in that process where we're, know, adding those ideas and at least putting in like this temp sound design that gives you those feelings.
And I
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: you know, It's large, so effective, but an audience never really consciously notices it. I love that stuff.
John: Well, there's a, yeah, a little feeling of momentum. If just the
Drew: Yeah.
John: are changing, like
Drew: Yeah.
John: like. You know, the sound of a consistent, like, you know, white noise sound in the background. Like, you know, you do that to fall asleep at night cause it, it's lulling, you
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, I, like, that's one thing we always like, let's do more variation, more like, you know, wind starting and stopping and like just little things changing throughout a scene gives it a lot of life and gives you the feeling of momentum.
you know, people rustling around in a courtroom or, you know,
Stacy: Hmm.
John: sounds are. Just something changing constantly
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, I feel like that really helps.
Rich: you guys are mentioning so many great things and so many little tricks about sound. It really makes a difference. You know,
sometimes I feel like, why does the scene feel dead? You know, where is the energy here? And like you said, sometimes there's a song playing in the background or in the distance, you know, like you're in someone's house, you know, and they're listening to the radio, you
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: as small as that can suddenly make it come to life, you
know, and suddenly the pacing works when it didn't before.
Stacy: That immediately sounds creepy. I'm like, why are they listening to the radio? That's so creepy.
Drew: Well, I think too, like, I think some people might think, okay, the editor is just going to get us through the picture, you know, lock picture. And then, you know, the sound designers will do all that and the music supervisor will, we'll find the music and, uh, you know, um, artists will do all the Foley where the reality is, you know, you rich, the picture editor does kind of all of that.
And then those experts will come along later and kind of, you know, do a slightly, you know. More polished version of those things, but it's amazing how much the picture editor is responsible for a first pass of all of it. The music, the sound design, all of it. And, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's such a hugely important position.
Rich: Yeah, we really do need to present those ideas, I feel, you
know, to a sound designer and to a sound team. And sometimes
they'll have ideas that we never thought of, and that's great. But again, they don't have the time, you know, we've spent so many weeks on an episode, right? So it's, again, really important to value that time.
I start talking with my assistant, you know. Um, at this point, you know, Brian, that you guys know, he's so great with sound, and we have these
conversations, even as we're putting dailies together, it's like, what do we want this to sound like, you know, um, what could be playing in the background, especially as we
get into our editor's cut, we're like, fully collaborating on that.
and
and, and sometimes I'll call him and I'll get his opinion all the time of like, do you think a song should be playing in the background? What do you think? Okay, could you reach out to the music supervisor and give us some options
for this? You know, because it's really like part of a scene. It's really an important element.
I don't understand. Sometimes editors like say they don't work with music or they don't really want to deal with sound. And my thought
is, how could you do that? It's part of. It's almost like a performer in the scene, right? It's like, what does it sound like? And so, yeah, we're always asking ourselves that question, you know, very early in the process,
um, knowing those ideas might be questioned and, and, and thrown out, you know, and again, the, the, the composer, the sound designer might have a totally different take on it, which is also great.
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: but I think
John: something to start with and and
Rich: That's what it is.
John: the studio network watches the first cut like
Drew: it.
John: know, when I hear, you know, I, I've heard, you know, editors like, well, I'm not a sound editor. Like, someone will do that down the road. It's like, but, but kind of the idea of, you know, Drew and I, you know, I always try to have the mentality like always be selling, always be selling yourself.
Always,
Rich: hmm.
John: your best foot forward and every like, every time you're doing anything. And, um, Our feeling is always like, well, but the studio network is going to watch this episode and think it's slow and blame the editor. Like, why wouldn't you want to have, you know, have all the sparkles in place, you know,
Stacy: Hmm.
John: why
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, why, why wouldn't you want to do that?
Um,
Drew: And to your point, John, like I think there's that, you know, that same type of person saying, Oh yeah, the sound designers will get to that later. And we're delivering it to the studio and the network. And they know, they know that, um, those things are still to come. They know that all those things will improve.
It's like.
John: they
never know.
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: know, like they consciously do know that. Of course they know that, but all they know is this episode, this scene feels slow and let's just cut it out. And like, sometimes
the notes are way more, um, way bigger than they need to be just because there's some subconscious thing that isn't quite working and it's usually, you know, that extra level of care, uh, that editors like yourself really, really, um. Really give to an episode because it, it, it does matter. There's just so much of it is just that subconscious engagement, that subconscious feeling of pace and, and, uh, propulsion. And, uh, yeah, I, I think
Stacy: seems like one of those jobs, I might be wrong, but it seems like one of those jobs that people move into and out of, like sometimes people have a lifelong love for editing and that's always going to be their job, but I feel like I've heard of a number of people that they do it and then they segue to something else in the business or, you know, that there's a little ebb and flow.
And I wonder with what you guys are describing, which, you know, honestly sounds like laziness, I wonder if it's laziness that comes out of boredom. I've definitely, as I've shifted through different careers, I've definitely, my, the less enchanted I get with whatever career I'm in, the more bored I get with it, the lazier I get, right.
And I start, you know, phoning it in. So I wonder if there's anything to that of like, and if the opposite is true too, that the more enthusiastic you are, the more passionate you are about what you're doing, probably the more fun you have doing it and the longer you'll want to do it, but,
Rich: Yeah, those are good points. I think sometimes editors maybe get set in their ways a little bit, you know, they don't have enough variety of experience and they just say, I do this, you know, they don't want to go of their box, you know, for me, like I said before, like the years that I spent writing makes me a much better editor because I, you know, can.
Again, I think dissect a scene better, you know, in terms of the story points, you know, and the time that I spent, you know, directing documentaries was really helpful to me. Partially because I understand, like, how hard it is to shoot something and how hard production is, and I understand, like, there's so many challenges that come up with your shoot, when you're shooting, so I'm so sympathetic, you know, to that side of it.
You
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: just helps me be more creatively engaged in more aspects to it. You know, when you make your own film, you're responsible for all of it. So, you know, you don't just say this is someone else's job, you know, I want like to be involved. So yeah, I think like staying like engaged and sometimes like you said, it's like doing.
You know, it can be something that's not a different part of your career, but just a hobby, you know, it can be cool, like doing photography or, you know, sometimes I do do things with like sound design just on my own, just experiments and audio, you know, that's something that like keeps me engaged with that part of the craft.
So then maybe I have something new to bring to a TV show. You know, I've learned something new out in the world in a hobby. Now I can. Bring it to what I do with you guys.
John: I love
that.
Drew: I love that too. That's awesome.
John: let's get into, uh, the rapid fire for,
Stacy: Rich, what is the first television show you truly loved and why?
Rich: Alright, I'm gonna say the first television I truly loved was The Wire. that show blew my mind. It was just so subtle in the way of storytelling, you know? I felt like I had to be so engaged with this show as a viewer. I had to be so invested in the little details to like, get to the payoff. And I'd never experienced a show quite like that.
And I feel even to this day, sometimes what we do, it has to be so immediate now. Everything needs to like, land with such a big impact. And when I watched that show, I don't know, there was like, a subtlety to it and a trust in the audience that I feel is very rare,
Drew: Couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. It's like, hard to, it's like almost every, so many people's favorite show ever and it's almost hard to imagine it getting made now, you know,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: five seasons of that show being made now, it's
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: hard to, you know, hard to imagine. Okay. Second question.
Uh, what is your favorite part of the job? It's
Rich: Favorite part of the job, I mean it would be easy for me to say cutting performances. I do think that is my favorite part of the job, just because I feel so engaged with the story when I'm, um, cutting performance. There's something about, um, a performance when it really rises to that place where it becomes magical to me.
Like I don't understand acting, so when I see someone perform a scene that like takes me out of my world and into the, story of the show, it just, uh, I don't know, it just transports me there. And like I said, I just become emotionally invested. So getting to like... Have a part in shaping that performance. I feel very honored to do it.
You know, when I see a performance that was obviously so well delivered and so much emotion and passion behind it, it makes me want to rise to that level and really like contribute on that same level that the actor brought to the performance.
Drew: I love that too.
John: of the job that costs you something? I love that.
Rich: Hmm. Well, schedules that are unrealistic cost me weekends, you could say,
but maybe, but maybe a better, a better answer is like. Inefficient workflows also, you know, I think cost all of us, right? I think when we spend our time doing things that aren't moving the ball forward, we all get frustrated and, um, not only does it cost us our weekends and it costs us our enriching personal life, which is important to have and to bring back to the work that we do, but it also just takes away the joy of, you know, the process.
So that's something that I always. It's like, are we honoring the process, and are we working as efficiently as possible? And consider wasting time like something that really costs us something creatively.
Drew: yeah,
yeah,
Stacy: feel like there should be a whole episode just on that. I'm like, cause we're too late in the episode for me to ask, but I'm like, like, what, like, what are these inefficiencies? We have to eradicate them, but that's, that's for another day.
Drew: That's for another
Stacy: Number four,
Drew: a lot.
Stacy: if you had a time machine, what advice would you give yourself?
when you started your television journey.
Rich: Ooh. okay, well this is a little self help y maybe, but if I had a time machine, I would go back and just... Tell myself to like enjoy the process more and to have more fun because I can think back on earlier times when there was so much worry, whether it was creatively, how am I doing on the show? What are they going to think of my work?
You know, where's my career going? All these worries. And I feel like now I'm in a place where I just appreciate doing this so much. You know, I, the. The creative process, getting to work with you guys and people at your level is like such an honor that, you know, I'm really able to appreciate it. And I know someday I won't do this anymore, you know, and I'll look back and think that was so cool that I got to do that.
And so I feel like the more time I wish I'd spend more time appreciating the process, you know, and really honoring it. But I'm glad that at some point that kind of clicked in and I was able to in the moment say this is so cool that I get to do this.
Stacy: If you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe or follow and please rate us real, real high. Give us six out of five, wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend. That's really nice. Just do that little arrow that shares with them. Um, that all really helps us find our audience.
Thank you so much. We really appreciate you being here and listening and Rich, that was so great. That was
so interesting.
Drew: thank you so much for joining us today.
Rich: Thanks you guys.
Drew: we could have done, we could have done four episodes with you easily.
Stacy: Yep,
for sure.
Rich: That was so much fun.
Drew: Yeah. Really
Rich: it,
Drew: Hopefully we'll see you, uh, in editorial as soon as possible.
Stacy: Yes.
Rich: do it.