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Stacy: Okay. If there's a show on the television, and you're the one Okay, let's just do it.
John: Oh my God. This is
Drew: Uh, back
to it.
Stacy: Back to one. If there's a show on the television, and you're the one with the perfect
vision, for how to write it, and shoot it, and cut it, and post, then you're the showrunner. And this
is your show. The showrunner's show. The showrunner's show. The showrunner show
Drew: Wow.
So anyone out there just listening, I highly recommend going to the video of that one. That was
really excellent. Really
work in the frame there stays.
I like it.
Stacy: thank you so much. Thank you so much,
Welcome to the show runner show everyone where every week we demystify some aspect of
the job of show running for anyone who works in TV. Who wants to work in TV or just wants to
know how it's all made. I'm Drew Dowdle.
John: I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: And I am Stacey Saboski. Thank you so much for joining us. It is a delight to have you
here.
John: week we wanted to give you some tools for managing. Um, no matter how great your
script, vision show is, it can always be better and studios and networks, uh, are there to help
you make it better. how you manage this process will not only lead to a better show, but will lead
to a better career.
Like, you know, Drew and I, as we were coming up, we would, you know, work with people
pretty well, I'd say. And. We'd see our peers, like, you can't tell me what to do suits people who
had like big hits, you know, we'd be like really envious of like, oh man, you know, that person
had a huge hit and
Stacy: Mm
John: we we, got a base hit, you know, and that person got a huge hit, because they were
difficult and we were good partners, we got to keep going in our career and we've seen a lot of,
um, incredibly talented, incredibly smart people, sort of fall by the wayside over time because
this process was, you know, mismanaged and people were treated as the enemy for to help.
And often
Stacy: mm

John: see objectively or, you know, subjectively, I guess. From the outside, like, no, the studio is
actually giving this person great notes, but this person's like, F you, you don't know, you know,
you don't know what this really means. And you'd be like, yeah, but they're right. But it would be
so much better if you listened a little.
And, we wanted to just talk, talk through some of that.
Drew: I think the intention of network notes and studio notes are always to make the show
better. And not all of them will, you know, sometimes it, it really becomes, um, You know, a skill
to be able to decipher, uh, between the two. And I think, you know, but mostly it's, you know, I
think sometimes you go into a creative process thinking they just want to like put their
fingerprints all over it and they just want to like take what's mine and make it theirs.
And I, I don't actually, after, you know, several seasons of TV now, I don't actually think. That's
the case. I don't think the, the purpose of notes is to, you know, kind of dilute the vision. Um, I
really think the intention is almost always pure and sometimes it's not, you know, delivered the
right way or sometimes an executive isn't really a writer so their notes aren't really, don't, don't
really work, you know, but I think the intention is, you can generally trust the intention of the
notes and not feel it, uh, See it as a conflict to what you're doing versus something that can be
additive and something that you don't have to You know do a hundred percent of but like that the
intention is to to make it better.
Not like you said John
John: yeah.
Stacy: the note behind the note here is that just notes in general, first of all, there's going to be
a lot of them. That's
Drew: There's be a lot.
Stacy: with
Drew: Yeah
Stacy: but that for the writer, for the showrunner, for the person taking the note on the receiving
end of the note, uh, it's very emotional. And it
Drew: Yeah
Stacy: the defensive.
Like I, even honest to God, even just the topic being about notes and the fact that we had a note
session yesterday and I've got to turn around the notes today. My hands are cold. My heart's
beating fast. Just, just knowing I have a notes thing, like me scared. Like, I don't know what I
think they're going to do.
I don't know if I think they're going to be like, Stacy, we decided you're incredibly untalented. You
have to, it's time for you to give up your dream and never write again. Like, I don't know what I
think is going to happen, but some part of me. It feels like that's
Drew: It's time.
Stacy: because I get way more nervous
than I should, should, whatever.

And I, I, I suspect that many writers are the same and that's why they act like big dumb
blowhards when they're like, they're not going to dilute my vision, those
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: It's like, just calm down. You're okay. Everyone loves You
You know?
John: if you're making your career from writing, uh, It's inevitable that's a part of your own self
esteem or self worth, you know, sense of self worth or self value or, you know, some way that,
you know, I'll speak for myself, like, up, like, you know, I, I, I think I sought to become a writer in
the way somebody who feels like a, you know, something of a whole inside is like, I need to get
great at this so I have like an intrinsic value to the world.
Stacy: Hmm. Yeah.
John: I've gotten older, I've been like, Oh, I have value to the world because I'm a human being
and I'm, you know, present. And, you know, but I, I think so much of my self worth was tied up in
being a good writer, a good filmmaker. And. Every notes call was a challenge to that. And
Drew: Yeah.
John: that
Stacy: it's not just in general, it's like
literally each line of dialogue, you know, you can get, it's not like,
Oh, I wrote a really, I wrote a genius one. And then I wrote one that was pretty good. And then I
wrote, no, it's like, it's down to the line of like, they want to change that line, but that's the, you
know, as if
every little adjective you pick defines you,
which is, you know, bananas,
but that's how it feels sometimes.
John: am I worthy? Am I worthy? Like, should I really be here? Or, or am I a fraud? It's like, they
know I'm a fraud. They're telling me all these things that are wrong with my script. You know,
like,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, it's, it's hard not to do that to yourself. Or, you
Stacy: Oh, it's so true. It's so true.
John: myself.
Like, it's hard for me not to do that. And time, I've learned to you. Transcribed I guess diversify
myself worth, you know,
Stacy: Yeah.

John: it's, it's, it's not this one
Drew: a good,
John: like, yeah, there's a lot of things and shit.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: If they didn't like that line, you know, there's a lot of lines and a lot of things, you
Drew: yeah, that's good life advice. When possible, diversify your software, you know,
John: so,
Drew: but
one thing I got to say, I love about, I just want to say, you know, one thing to kind of. Talk about
the value of notes and the studio networks involvement in the creative. I found over time we've,
instead of fighting against it, we've really used it as a bit of a, you know, backstop of like, okay,
let's try something.
You know, this might be too far. This might be too much. It might be crazy, you know? And if it is,
they'll tell us, you know, they'll tell us like you guys went too far, you know? And, uh, And I think
it allows you to be more daring in the writing in a way, knowing that there is, you know, some
kind of safeguard in place that will
stop you, you know, will save you from yourself a little bit, and to use that and not to, you know,
say, I need to deliver a perfect draft that gets no notes.
You're like, you're always going to get
notes. You're like, that is a given. But if you're, you know, have kind of a flyer of an idea that
either is. Genius or it's terrible and you can't tell the difference like you can try it and they will tell
you and uh, And it's it's it's kind of nice to have that, you know, first line of defense, um against
maybe some of your You know more daring impulses which uh, once in a while they come back
and say wow, we love that
thing Like okay, I guess that does work
and um, you know, yeah More of that
ball move
Stacy: Pickett season two, when we were pitching the season overview. And some point really
early in the process, we're like, okay, in the climax, we pictured Joe murdering someone in cold
blood bless. And they're like, huh,
Drew: Ha okay
Stacy: not really the Joe we're seeing some
sort of, you know?
Drew: But they were to that point, they said they were really helpful in like, there's certain things
that maybe Joe, like we always went in and said Joe Pagan never lies. Like we know this, like
this is our, this is our, that is one thing that we know he's never a dishonest person.

Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: And, uh, but then there was other things that city like that, that doesn't seem like.
A line Joe would cross and we're like, okay, thank you. You're right. You
know, that's you're right.
And, uh, you know, sometimes you need to press those boundaries to, to get the pushback and
you kind of know where, know where your, where your boundaries exist at the end of the day
because of that process.
Stacy: right. They're like those little things on the bowling alley that keep you from.
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: a gutter
Drew: totally. Exactly.
John: you're like, you know, white knuckling the steering wheel and you see like one of those
metal guardrails along the side and you're like, Oh, okay. I can relax a little. I'm not going to go
creening off the edge of
Stacy: Hmm.
John: The guardrails will bounce me back into the road if I lose control. Like when you're driving
way too fast down a mountain road, like you're
Stacy: Oh
John: like guardrails, you know,
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah.
John: they are those. And, and I'll say too, like one of the things we really try to a mentality of
and whether or not it's true, it's a helpful belief and something we try to instill in the, in the room
and stuff is.
You can always make great changes from bad notes,
Drew: Yeah.
John: is bad, even if a note comes from, you know, a weird place or they're just not getting
something, you can always make a great change. You can clarify that moment. You can, you
can always make a great change from that. And that really puts the power back into your hands.
You know, that's, that's less like they're trying to ruin it. Like. When I hear people saying like,
they're going to ruin this thing that we were doing that's so good,
Stacy: Hmm.
John: that mentality, you're already giving up on your own script. Like you're, you're letting go of
what could be great in your script you start adapting that that defeatist mentality.
But if you're like, I can make a great change based on this, like there's 10 different ways you can
write any scene it's up to you to find a great way to address notes and still. And still, like,

maintain, you know, the, the integrity of the show you want to make. And, and it's, it's hard
sometimes. It's hard to find that balance or to find that thing.
But knowing that, you know, knowing that you can always make a great change with a bad note,
empowers you win no matter what. You can always win.
Stacy: And I, I'd say most notes are good too, you know,
like
Drew: Mm hmm.
Stacy: that's so smart. The, uh, you can make a good change out of a bad note. And that is a
great way to deal with bad partners. Cause sometimes you do end up with, uh, partners who are
unrespectful, who just are addicted to giving notes.
That happens sometimes, but I would say more rarely.
Drew: Yeah,
I think That's true.
John: Yeah. We had a partner on one thing. It's like every draft, like every, it could be like draft
10 of episode three, like every draft would be like five pages, single space notes, like on
everything. And
Stacy: Nightmare.
John: hand it back in another five pages, you know, single space notes.
Stacy: Ugh.
John: turn in another draft, five pages, like it was just like, you know, there
Stacy: And no, and no compliments either. Right.
John: yeah,
Drew: yeah, yeah,
Stacy: to, what manager does not realize you have to start with what's good. You know,
notes, like say you get the email or the call. If it's being run well, the executives are always going
to start with. This was what was great. We love this.
And
they'll give a, a list of what they love and a list of the changes they love. They'll start with the
positive and then, you know, there's a little pause and then, you know, get into the, but to just
begin with five pages of notes and not even a, how do you do,
John: yeah,
Stacy: how rude?
John: like a series of complaints, you

Stacy: Yeah.
John: And, and that can really hurt the heart to engage in that over, you know, over and over.
And yet, were able to make a much better show as a result of those notes. Even
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, I would have preferred a different tone. I would have preferred they were, less
arbitrary, I guess, you know, there's,
Stacy: hmm.
John: I, would have preferred, you know, the notes have been done differently on that specific,
like, usually notes are, you know, delightful. They do
Stacy: yeah,
John: yeah, you know, nice things. And with some, you know, things to consider in the middle,
you know what I mean?
Like
Stacy: Mm hmm.
John: that's, you know, in the modern era that's way. But,
Stacy: And that's how you build trust. Right.
John: That's how you build trust. Or, you know, Drew and I, you know, we did test screenings on
a bunch of our movies and boy, you want, you want the straight unvarnished truth, man. Like,
Drew: read those cards, yeah,
John: read those cards, you know, or sit in the back of the room and they don't realize you're
sitting in the room and they're just like.
this movie's stupid. You know, it reminds me of a stupid movie I saw a long time ago. I hated
this. You know, and you're sitting here like,
Stacy: like,
John: sitting there taking
Stacy: God.
John: not to act like you're
Drew: everyone's on their phone, like texting through the whole movie and then they're going to
write some card that's going to force you to like change the whole ending of your movie, even
though they're not even like paying attention at all. You know?
Yeah, that's a brutal process.
John: glowing screens. You're like,
Drew: Yeah,

John: you know, like this horrible, you know, and and the test gratings, I would literally just
count my breaths, just like breath in one, breath out two,
Stacy: Oh man. Ouch.
John: count breaths to 10 over and over because it was just so stressful and, you know, you go
through that enough times, but there's, you know, but we've gotten really terrible notes from
those and made great changes and,
Drew: Yeah.
John: And you can be like, well, that person didn't get the movie or that person, like, well, if the
prison didn't get the movie, like maybe it's not clear enough and maybe
Stacy: Mm.
John: clarify something.
So they do, you know what I mean? It's not their fault, uh, that they're having notes or problems.
so let's talk through the process. Maybe we talk
Stacy: Great.
John: three, parts. So maybe taking the notes in like what a notes call or something like that
looks like how to process them and then delivering the new draft and how to.
Uh, account for those notes in, in the
Stacy: Yes.
And let's get, let's get kind of granular.
John: yeah, yeah. So taking the notes in Stacy, you want to run with that?
Stacy: Yeah, we're doing, we're actually in the process of this right now, which is why today's
songs were extra bad because normally on Thursday mornings during my meditation, I think
about what the song is going to be today. I was just thinking about these notes that were turning
around. So, um, and we discussed, we were like, should we not mention the people by name?
Should we just call them the producers, the studio, the network. But then we decided there's
such. Excellent partners. Their notes are so good. so cool that, you know, all we're going to say
is good stuff. So it's okay to say, we're going to be talking about, um, a project we're working on
with the Tandem Bomb Company.
They're the, the producers and Lionsgate. They're the studio and Hulu. They're the network and
I think that's an important thing to mention because for all these notes, you have to sort of go
through three passes of it.
Drew: Mm-Hmm?
Stacy: we do at this moment. Who knows? Maybe at some point, um, two of those entities will,
will gather their notes together down the line.
That's possible. But begins, for example, with, you know, I turn in a draft. It goes to the
producers first and then they can either choose to. Email their notes, or they can say, Hey, let's
set up a call or a zoom. And I'm going to be perfectly honest here. Even though they're lovely

people, I always prefer getting
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: because the email means, Hey, we've only got a couple of things and they're so small
and easy, we're just going to send them to you.
Whereas if somebody's like, great, great. Let's get on a call immediately. My hands turn icy cold.
I'm like, they hate me. They need to say it in person. there are so many notes that they have to
do it via zoom, you know, and
even, and we'll dissect it
John: they don't even want to look at your stupid face. They're like, we're just going to email you
how terrible this is because we hate you now and we don't even want to our time with you. So
Stacy: =Yeah, that's
John: there's that side too, you know?
Stacy: it's true. Like, and I think they know that too, because like, like in the, when they were,
um, bomb. I took their notes. We looked at it and the three of us looked at it together in house,
kicked it back to Tannenbaum company. They say, we like it. And then they, we don't, they pass
it up to Lionsgate.
And then the, you know, so that's the next step up. And then Lionsgate, uh, in this, in this
instance said, Hey, let's jump on, jump on a zoom. And they were kind enough to go just
because it's been a minute, you know, we just want to say hi, but, you know, so they were
basically saying. Don't worry. The fact that we're meeting, you know, in person over zoom, uh,
shouldn't be taken as a bad sign.
So this was what was this yesterday?
Drew: yesterday. Yeah.
Stacy: So it was yesterday. So then as you go up those levels, um, everybody still joins. So
even though this was a Zoom with Lionsgate and they were leading the notes and these were
their notes on the draft, everyone from Tantum Bomb Company is still there.
So, and I'm sure next time when it's Hulu giving the notes, I'm sure everyone from Lionsgate
and everyone from Tantum Bomb Company. Be there. So your zoom boxes just get smaller and
smaller as the meeting gets bigger. And
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: And it's always fun to see who takes the lead on stuff and, and you know, does the
speaking from the notes.
And sometimes that shifts from person to person
Drew: But yeah, to your point, Stacy, I think that's like, especially on episode one.
Stacy: Yes.
Drew: know, at the beginning of the process, it's very regimented going up the levels from
producers to studio to network, you know, as you get deeper in a show, you tend to, at least we
always try to say, hey, you know. Can we combine the studio network as like one collective pass

and that can, you know, save a lot of
time and that can be, you know, it's hard to do that, you know, on episode one, but if you're in a
room and you're in episode three, four, five, six, whatever, like,
Stacy: Yes.
Drew: I think everybody kind of starts to like, how do, how do we streamline this a little bit
more?
And especially if the studio and the network are creatively, you know, pretty simpatico that, that
can really
help save a step.
John: Yeah. And I think, you know, as, as everyone's figuring out what the show is and stuff, the
first episode or two or three, like everyone's going to want to see it, you know, individually. And
Stacy: Yeah.
John: to just, just make sure, you know what I mean? Like every one of the, and, and if you're
like, you know, I'm going to save a step and just email it to everyone.
Like that doesn't go well, that, that doesn't go
Stacy: no, don't do that.
John: You know what I mean? Like people feel like, wait, wait,
Drew: We've made,
John: to, you need to show it to us first. So we can put eyes on it before you
Stacy: Yeah.
John: uh, the next rung and trying to skip that step or, you know. I feel like people like being part
of the process and television is a collective art form.
It's not a, it's not a one person out art form, no matter who you are. You know what I mean?
Drew: yeah,
John: going to have so many people, you know, um, working on it. It's not like painting by
yourself, you know,
Drew: yeah,
John: somewhere. It's a, it's a, it's a collective art form and the producers. Studio and network
are all going to want to, you know, be involved and you can fight that and make yourself crazy,
or you can embrace that and use that to your benefit.
Drew: yeah. And I think at the very, you know, the core of it too with the producers studio
network. I think they just want to know that they're being heard more than anything else. More
than did they take my note? Did they not take my note? They want to, they want to know that
you hear them and you're considering it.

And, um, and if you're. consistently dismissing, you know, one level of this process. Um, it's
going to be a problem. It's going to be a problem for you and they're going to make you, you
know, pay for that. But I think, you know, it really isn't about how many notes you take at the end
of the day, or, you know, it's just about really letting them know, like, I heard your note, I tried it,
you know, whatever that may be, but just, just really focus on making sure they know that you
hear them.
Stacy: And at risk of, uh, too much butt kissing and apple polishing, which is, they're also, these
folks have like potentially a lot of knowledge. They potentially, you know, the, the producers, the
executives, they know TV. They have a passion for storytelling. That's why they chose this
instead of say, being an agent or something.
And also they're your first audience, you know, eventually when you're in a room, like, say you're
working on a pilot, a lot of that is solo work where you're like, you don't really know what you're
doing in a room. You're going to have that first audience of, you're going to throw out a pitch.
And some people in the room will go like, yeah, Oh yes.
And, or they'll go, huh. You know, you can feel how your ideas go
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Uh, I'd say executives are kind of that first audience because a lot of times the notes
they're asking for are like more of that
that change you made. We like that. Can we have just a little more of that? You know, that's
somebody's
Drew: Yeah.
John: Well, I think too, like, you know, studios networks, like you may learn over the course of
your career, like what doesn't work by making the, you know, you know, doing things, writing
things, creating things that people don't like. Oh, you know, when my lead actor cries in the first
act, the audience hates that or whatever, whatever, you know what I mean?
Like, There's things you learn over time, but they've, had like, you know, a hundred things in the
time you've had to,
and they've, they've seen firsthand so many things that don't work or so many things that
caused problems. And, you know, sometimes, you know, sure they've learned, you know, maybe
the wrong lessons from that, like, oh, people hate movies with dogs in it or whatever.
It could be way too broad. But they've also learned, Oh, this doesn't play. I, I had a test grading
went terribly because of this thing or, and they, they can really save you from a lot of your own
problems that, that you may want to incorporate into your, in, and there's always a different way
to do it.
Stacy: there's also, that's for when your show's actually up and running and your goal is to
make the best show possible to connect with the audience as deeply and hopefully as broadly
as possible. Um, but there's also that first goal, which is like, just get made, get
John: Yeah.
Stacy: light,
Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Stacy: certainly they have a lot of experience because, how many shows are in development,
you know?
How many
John: Yeah.
Stacy: in development potentially for a small reason, potentially, you know, a little gap, a little
problem that they could solve ahead of time.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Drew: what would you say? I mean, just for context, like, know, there's shows that are, you
know, you go out and pitch a show and some of that rare occasion that you get picked up to
series means like, okay, we're not only buying the show from you, but we're committing to
making it and that's a rare.
Um, most shows are picked up, what they call, into development. It means, you know, Netflix is
going to buy your show and they want to develop it with you. And so all they're really committed
to doing is maybe paying you for a pilot episode
Stacy: Mm
Drew: and to develop it until they make a decision whether they want to.
Either green light a whole writer's room and write the whole season or whether they want to
green light, you know a path to production to actually making it But mean, what would you say
John you think in terms of percentages shows that are picked up into development that get
made?
John: 10%.
Drew: 10 percent I would say that I'd say 10 to 20, you know, maybe maybe less than 10.
Maybe we'd be surprised. Maybe it's five, you know, so
John: Yeah.
Drew: So to Stacy's point you get you know, you get something in development Just knowing
what those odds really are, you know, you can make a living, you know, just
writing
Stacy: true.
John: Yeah.
Drew: that never get made.
You could make a living doing that. But you know, when you go
John: A lot of people do. Yeah.
Drew: tell anyone, you know, what you're working on. Like, no one will know, you know, no one
will have

seen anything because nothing actually gets, gets made. Um, so when you're in that
development phase, you really want to be thinking of like, what, what is it that they need?
You know? To hit,
John: Yes
Drew: to press
that button. You're like,
what? Uh, and you need to kind of, you know, act accordingly. Just knowing that, you know, it's
a binary thing. It either becomes a show or it doesn't. You know, it's one or the other. And, um,
you should kind of do everything in your power to make it, something that gets made.
Stacy: Simply
put, I don't want to write pilots for a living.
Drew: I want to
make TV
shows
for a
living
Yeah, exactly.
Stacy: and you
Drew: Exactly.
Stacy: And
you think that'd be obvious, but I think there are probably a lot of people who don't feel that way.
Who are like, no writing pilots for a living is fantastic. You know,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: if something goes to air, great, but we have seen firsthand, uh, amongst ourselves and
then amongst our friend group nothing gets your career cooking, like actually having something
made.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: a good career going and a good reputation on paper, that's one thing, you're here, and
then if anything gets made, even if it's your least favorite project, whatever it is, boom, you go up
there.

Drew: it's
John: Yeah.
Drew: doesn't do like crazy business and it's
like just a decent show, that's just out there on a streaming platform of any kind or, um, it's just
available to see just it existing in the world is
a huge, huge, you know, feather in your cap. And it's a huge, um, know, uh, a lot of momentum
in your career versus, you
John: Yeah.
Drew: just a
bunch of scripts on shelves. Yeah. It means you can do
John: Yeah, it means,
Stacy: done it once before.
Drew: Yeah,
John: yeah, and people want to bet on people who have done the thing, you
know, and, and, and you never know, like, you know, Joe Pickett came from Waco, like we
did Waco, we got that to air, and the producers of Joe Pickett had this book, Joe Pickett,
and they saw Waco, and they said, You know, it'd be great doing this series is these guys.
And so, you know, the work started coming to us as a, you
know what I mean? Uh, I mean, not completely, we still have to, you know, push, you
know, and L every day, but, but, you know, getting it, you know, getting that one thing
made really helped us turn a corner in, in a lot of ways. And,
Stacy: Mm
John: and to Drew's point, I love that just having that mentality of it's binary, like.
Either this becomes a show or it doesn't become a show. And if that is your focus and
your objective, whether to dig your heels in on this specific line of dialogue, like none of
that is, uh, you can have the most perfect dialogue in a script in a show that never gets
made, or you can, you know, like be willing to improv a little and move things around a
little and try
things in. Like and not giving them a great reason to say no at the end of the day,
Drew: Yeah.
John: know, and, and that doesn't mean just do everything exactly what they asked. Okay, I'm
just going to do everything they asked for, no matter what, you know, like, that's not a path. To
getting it done either they they don't it's a lot of pressure on the execs if every note They give
you you do exactly a letter of the law like
exactly what they asked for because then they're like Oh, what if I give a note that breaks it?

They want to know you're filtering it through your judgment and through your
Drew: that's right.
John: Through your craft in your skill like they they don't want it delivered And I mean we've had
this experience like we give notes to a writer. They do exactly the notes But nothing makes any
sense. You're like, well, this note,
like this scene doesn't make
Stacy: that goes into it and out of it. You can't just
John: Yeah,
Stacy: there and not
John: yeah
Stacy: or the payoff. It's like, yes,
John: Yeah, and in fact like
I remember I remember, you know getting a draft from a writer doing that it's like Literally
everything exactly as asked and not a thing more where nothing made any sense and
Stacy: Right.
John: really felt like the writers being like F you
you, know,
F you, I'll do your stupid notes.
Uh,
but they're obviously checked out of,
Stacy: Yes.
John: this, this, what you want, or these, the notes you want, you know what I mean? But it's,
but that's not, that's not the game. That's not the game to play. The game to play is how do I
make these exact, no, I heard them. And to Drew's point earlier, like.
To let them know you hear them. Like I've been on notes calls where you hear a writer like, Oh
yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I already did. I was going to do that anyway, or, you know, or, Oh, it
doesn't work. We already talked about it. That, that won't work. Like, or you see like
defensiveness or, Oh, this character would never do something like that.
Um, like
Stacy: the notes call.
John: right in the notes call. And you're like, that's not the strategy
I like to employ and I recommend to everyone we work with. Like in the notes call, like you can
listen, you can ask questions like, Oh, when you say this, do you mean it more at the start of the
scene or what part of the scene, like to really draw out what they're saying so that they feel

really listened to and really heard.
And you can say like, Oh, I like that. That's really, that's really interesting. Or that that's a really,
like, I hadn't thought of something like that. Like, let us, you know, let us play around with that.
Um,
Stacy: nobody wants to see you come up with an answer on the spot.
Drew: No,
Stacy: expecting you
John: Yeah.
Stacy: they do not want you to,
Drew: yeah,
Stacy: I do is a lot of times, like yesterday, for example, when we were getting notes, like, to be
honest, I know the script backwards and forwards. So as soon as they gave a note, boom, I had
an idea.
Again, bad pitch, not a great idea, but I had to solve right away. So I might say something like,
Oh, good. Yeah, I have a, I have a cool idea of how to do that. I'm going to circle back with John
and Drew
Drew: yeah,
Stacy: want to know that you're now, now I think it's okay to say that like, Oh, I've got an idea for
that.
Or even yesterday I was like, okay. I like that note. I don't actually know where to do it yet, but
we'll, we'll figure it out.
Drew: We'll
figure it out.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: will. And we did.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Um, but so it's okay to say that it's also, I've noticed that you guys, when you guys are
leading it, you tend to, um, not ask many questions.
You just sort of go good. Got it. Because you guys have gotten so good at knowing what the
note behind the note is. That you don't really have to ask newer to this. So I actually, and I love
to talk. So I actually go ahead and do a little bit more than you do of like, okay. So you say that
you want this, like say for example, you want to show that the character, you want to show more
human, warm moments with this character.
Does it matter to you who that's with, or where that happens, or are we just free to put it
wherever we want, you know? And they might have some thoughts about it, because, you know,
for example, um, that, that character, the main character, they had notes, the, the producers had
notes last week saying, hey, we'd like to see warm, Another, a warm moment with her and her

children.
We want to see her be a good mom at least once. Okay, great. Got it. And now we're getting a
similar note of like, we are so glad you added that warmth. We'd like even more of it. And then I
feel free to go, do you care if it's, you know, with her as a mom or as a wife or just as a sister,
like, does it matter?
And then like, hmm. No, really just wherever, you know what I mean? So I might ask, I tend to
ask for more feedback than you guys do, but I just want to make this clear to everyone. I do not
do it defensively.
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: not, asking questions as an excuse to show how stupid their ideas. It's
Drew: yeah, right,
Stacy: do you want it?
I mean, do you care if it's this or that? It's not that at all.
Drew: yeah
Stacy: asking for clarity while at the same time, assuring them that like if left to our own devices,
we'll come up with something cool, but just so I know exactly what you're asking for. And then I'll
ask for clarity.
Drew: I think that's great too. I think that absolutely serves the same most important purpose of
making sure they feel heard. And, uh, um, and it's not like we're, you know, you're coddling them
in a way. These are all really, you know, smart professionals typically. And, know, but again, if
you're asking for more feedback, you're just, you know, that you really care about, you know, uh,
their thoughts and you hear them.
And I think that is simply the most important thing.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're all the doctors. There's a patient on the table. The
patient is the script.
We're all doctors. If you're like. Well, I was gonna, you know, staple the spleen, but you know,
you know, like I tried that and the stapler doesn't work, you know, whatever, like if you're, if
you're that doctor, you're going to kill your patient, you know, whereas
Stacy: First
John: if,
Stacy: not be stapling their spleen.
John: yeah, yeah, I've never done a medical show, like, and I probably shouldn't
start, uh, but, but, uh, but yeah, that, that the idea of like, you can be defensive, like in your
heart.

Yeah. But really, like, if you're like, you don't have to commit to anything on the call, like,
and,
Stacy: Yes.
John: but I, but I would say I would, I would avoid being like, well, we can try that, but, uh, you
know, don't know if that's going to work. Like, you don't have to do any of that. Don't do any of
that in the call, in
the call.
It's like, oh, that's really interesting. I like that. Like, Ooh, I have an idea for something we could
try. And later you could come back and be like, Hey, we tried that. It didn't, it's, it felt out of place.
Like we tried it and this is the reason we didn't feel like that actually worked. You know, you can
always come back to it, but if, if you don't force them into a defensive position, as they're
delivering the note, they won't dig in in the
same way
as if you fight them right out of the gate.
Or
they feel like,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: public when they're surrounded by their, you know? Um, I think, I think simply put, I think
a lot of writers, have big egos, but also fragile egos. You know, it's
Drew: Mm-Hmm?
Stacy: a genius, no I'm a fraud. I'm a genius, no I'm a fraud. And I think one of the ways it
shows up is I think a lot of writers think they are so much smarter than execs.
Uh, and I think that tone. of defensiveness slash smugness sometimes shows. I'm like, okay, if
you want the character to be likable,
John: yeah,
Stacy: it could show, like, like if you're being, if you, if you have a low opinion of them, they can
tell, like
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: cool it.
John: that's it. And There's not that many exec jobs. The execs that survive are usually pretty
smart, you
know, and, uh,
Drew: And the thing that don't realize until you've, you know, do a few rounds, you know, a few
years of TV, um, is that these execs move around, you

know, more than like football coaches. I swear to God, like, you know, whoever we always joke,
like whoever we start a show with is never there at the end.
And like, And you might think, okay, then that's less reason to take their notes. It's actually, no,
it's the opposite is true. I think it's more reason to leave an impression, no matter how long
they're involved, you know, I think their intentions are to make the show better. But the reality is
they're going to end up at the next network or studio that you're
trying to get something made at.
And like, you know, you look at how these people spread around and, um, it's, it's a really good
thing if you're, if you're. You know, good at that kind of network studio diplomacy, then you're
going to have a friend at other places that you've never worked at before, just
because of, um, how these execs, the revolving door of executives, uh,
in the business.
Stacy: friend who has probably risen up the ranks and a friend who, one of the first things
they're supposed to do, supposed to do at their new job is demonstrate how many good
relationships they've created with how
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: you know, you like, didn't you guys just have a meeting at Amazon, right?
With an executive you
Drew: Yeah, that we used to work with. I have a lunch, uh, today with, uh, you know, someone
who was the head of a studio we used to work with, uh, on another TV thing and is now running,
um, a different studio. And it's, it's, yeah, that we've never worked with before, uh, on the TV
side. So, you know, yeah, it's really, um, it's cool.
The ones that are good, uh, do survive, but they tend to, know, move around a lot. And that, uh,
if you're,
John: what.
Drew: you're a good partner, that, that will serve you well.
John: Yeah, your reputation is the most important thing. Like if you're honest, if you're open,
you, uh, treat, you know, exacts and the other people you work with, like human beings, you
know, you don't go around screaming on set and belittling people. Like, you know what I mean?
If you, if you, if you hold yourself well, like that, that kind of idea that your character is your
destiny.
Like that is definitely true for a career if you're, if you're an awful person to work with you have
one miss and you're done, you know, if you're a good person to work with, you might, you might
be able to miss, you know, every once in a while and it'll be okay because people will want to
work with you regardless and,
Stacy: um,
John: um, and you know, you don't, you don't plan on having misses, but you know, You do
enough work, you will have misses.

And that's just part of it. And
Stacy: yeah,
John: you know, it's,
Stacy: not even be shows that make it to air, but aren't hits. It could even just be stuff that you're
developing. You've got this passion project and you're developing it and you do that a few times
in a row and it turns out it's not connecting with buyers. That's just not what people want at the
moment or something.
You know,
John: yeah.
Stacy: miss.
John: it's true.
Stacy: about, processing the notes. So we talked about whether it's an email or a Zoom or a
call, getting the notes, being cool, but now you said, okay, bye. Have a great weekend. We'll get
this to you soon. Now what do you do? Mm,
John: So there's a couple ways, there's, you know, one thing we like to look for is the note
behind the note in things. Like, there's sometimes when the note is very clear, it's very, you
know, direct. It's like, can you end the, you know, episode here instead of there, you know, or it's
like something. And that might be a like, well, that works great.
Let's do that. Or it might be like, well, you know what they're feeling is the back end of the script
is dragging a little, and what, what if we thin out everything before that? So, you know, the
original end we have is still the end, but it's. Five minutes earlier in the script, you know,
whatever like, you know There's all these different ways of doing a thing And then you can say
like we feel like what you were reacting to is there was three, you know Slow scenes in a row we
removed two of them to move up the ending But we really want this to be the cliffhanger
whatever like
something you can come to a lot of people like to say The rule of thirds, you know, a third, you
know, you take a third of their notes, exactly as written, a third of the notes is a variation of what
they've asked for and a third of the notes you don't do, um, and have a reason why you don't,
um, you know, we like to try everything and we like to challenge, you know, ourselves and the
writers we work with, like to try, like let's do every note.
And then see in the script, which ones do and don't feel like they fit instead of it being like, well,
that'll never work. And that'll never work. Like sometimes just the process of trying the bad
version, even of a note makes you go, Oh, actually, this is great. Like.
I, I didn't know how, like this note sounded like bad on paper, but now that I'm trying it, I really
like it, you
know, what do you, what do you, guys think of this, you know, and, I, I feel like, uh, just trying all
of them really helps.
Drew: Yeah. You're

Stacy: can be really helpful because then you can like, say for example, I was taking one of the
notes yesterday and saying to the guys like, Hey, I really liked this moment. This change is cool.
However, does it deflate the tension? Because I want maximum tension going into the next
scene. And I don't, I'm not willing to add like a happy, cheerful moment there. If it's going to
deflate the tension, that's, that's a. It's to analyze your own work and then you can actually talk
about it and go, No, actually this, this choice will actually increase the tension or whatever,
whatever it is.
It's nice to be able to step, take a step back, analyze your work and discuss it amongst your
writer group that.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: That
John: I'll, I'll,
Stacy: an articulate
John: no, no, well, I'll say to your point, like that comes with craft that comes with time and that
comes with craft like early on often. It's like, well, why is this scene here? Well, I don't know. I, I
liked it. You know what I mean? like
I feel like that. It's funny. I thought it was neat, you know, whatever, like, you
know, I'm imitating myself, you know, in
my earlier days, not, you know, but like, but you, you can't necessarily articulate why something
is the way it is.
And I think as time goes on, you start to think of the scenes. I mean, maybe right intuitively, but
then, you Are able to analyze the reason for the scene, why it's there, why it's in that position,
why it starts where it does and ends where it does. You know what I mean? Like, and have
reasons for shifting things.
But within that, like, I feel like as craft builds, you're more comfortable being able to analyze and
move things around in a way that doesn't break anything.
Stacy: I've got one about the opposite of the note behind the note. Cause certainly sometimes
there's a note behind the note and you can find it. Everybody goes, yes, yes, that's what we
meant. Uh, but sometimes there's just a note sometimes it's real clear. And sometimes it's about
something you like.
This happens to me pretty often where I like things quirky. I like them weird. And I have a taste
for the gross. I like things a little gross and other people don't as much, you know, and that's
something I bump up against a lot. So, so for example, um, I had a character, I had the main
character picking a wedgie.
Uh, and, uh, the network didn't like that. And for a
John: Yeah.
Stacy: like, but she's going to pick the wedgie in a cute way. It's funny. Why isn't it, you know,
and then just going, let it go, Stace. It's, are you really going to,

John: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Stacy: because you want to protect that wedgie?
Fuck the wedgie. You know, does that make sense?
Drew: I'll say, even to make a point, you know, that I'd love to expand on right there is also
knowing, like they didn't like it. They probably are thinking about casting. They're probably
thinking we want a great actress to play this. She probably wants to be sexy. And we feel like
we're making fun of her. She's going to be like gross or overweight or something.
Like, you know, it doesn't, know, It's not helpful for casting, but knowing that, like, there's a
difference between what ends up on the page and what you end up shooting, too, and knowing,

like, that shot, we'll be there, and we'll say, hey, you know what, let's grab that little wedgie
moment, and it might be, um, you know, something we really like,
um, but just knowing that there's, you know, you could still, you know, Not saying you can go
rogue and shoot scenes that don't exist, or shoot a bunch of dialogue that's not on the page, but
like when it comes to visuals and stuff like that, kind of keeping track of those things and saying,
I still want to try to do that and see if
that works, you know, and,
Stacy: I
Drew: and the same is
John: Yeah.
Drew: with the notes that we found sometimes, like, you know, if they really don't like a certain
thing or think this one thing's unnecessary, if it doesn't change your shooting day, really, and it
doesn't change story where like, you could either remove it in post or keep it in, and it won't
really change anything, then, It's a perfectly acceptable thing, you know, to say, Hey, we'd love
to just try it.
Like we
get it if it doesn't work, we'll nip it out and post and
it'll be no harm, no foul. It won't be, you know, two extra hours on the day or anything. It's just
baked into the scene and we'll shoot it. And, uh, and if you don't like it, then we'll take it out. I
think that's a perfectly, uh, acceptable way to let them feel heard and also get the thing that you
still kind of want.
And then,
you know, the proof will be in the pudding. At the end of the day, it'll be clear to all whether it
was, uh, you know, worth keeping or not. And then you can
John: Yeah.

Drew: can always edit, edit things out, you know?
John: Yeah, and well, then to shoot it in such a way or make sure, make sure it's covered in
such a way that, that could be nipped out,
like,
like we've definitely worked with, you know, uh, like a director, like, oh yeah, I'll give it to you lots
of different ways. And we're like,
okay, but we need to be able to pull this out.
And then it's a one er and it's like, there's,
you know, it really hard to edit that one thing out. And um, and I, I think, you know, that's part of,
yeah, yeah. Intentional, like, you know, hamstringing you where. Like playing those kinds of
games. That's not, that's not,
you know, we like the mentality of like, play long term games with long term people, like all these
exacts, all these people you're working with, they're going to be around, they're going to be
around 30 years from now, you know?
Um, and they could be your lifeline. They could be a great ally to you. But if you're showing them
that you're, you'll be like, oh yeah, I'll make sure we cover it in such a way that we can just nip
that up, but then it's. I'll just give them one option. And the only option is, you know,
not what you discussed.
Like that's, that shows poorly and you
know,
Stacy: what you're talking about though, Drew, right? You're talking about
John: no, no.
Stacy: yeah, exactly,
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: them know, reminding them sometimes I think, There could be a tendency to want to
make it perfect on the page. It's got to be perfect before we shoot it. But just always kind of the
gentle reminder, sometimes like, Hey, you know what? I still think it's going to work. cover it.
And if you don't like it in the cut, well, I'll just take it out. And you're, you're, you're, suggesting a
willingness to remove it
but you just want to try it and then we can remove it later. And, um, and you're not saying it has
to be, it has to be. It's kind of almost like, let me show you. And if you still don't like it, I'll take it
out.
I won't complain about it. And, um, you know,
I
John: Yeah.

Drew: you know,
Stacy: our, episode that was about like the three reasons to have a pilot or the 75 lives of your
John: Yeah.
Stacy: So, you know, something like that, that there's, this is at the stage we're early in
development, early in the development stage. The purpose right now is to get a green light or
get a series order.
And get a cast.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: example, I had the words muffin top skank, you know, like I described the character as a

John: Yeah.
Stacy: top skank, which I think is awesome. I would love to play a muffin top skank. That'd be
amazing. Um, but the average amazing actress who's I shouldn't call them, you know, like an A
list actress, who's that's what we, who we want to say this probably won't want to play a muffin
top skank.
So
John: Yeah.
Stacy: that out, you get cast,
Drew: You just
John: Yeah.
Drew: and like, I think a lot of notes, you do find that, especially the pilot episode, you'll see a lot
of notes that are just really careful about how characters are described, and oftentimes, you
know, a little less is more, because it might appeal to more actors, and
casting is so, like, You know, important.
And, you know, the show is getting made or not made. We talked about development, you know,
the binary situation of it, like often it flips to a show getting made based solely on who, what
actor you're able to convince to do
the show. And, uh,
John: Yeah.
Drew: you see a lot of care taken about, you know, taken toward, uh, how those characters are
described to make sure, you know, Are.
Actor, actress doesn't read, you know, the first two pages and be like, wait, what? I got, you
know, missing a tooth and I don't want to

do this, you know? Yeah,
Stacy: decrepit,
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Stacy: Oh God.
John: let's get into the third step of the process is delivering the new draft. And one thing Drew
and I have done, and this isn't, you know, we didn't invent the idea, but one thing we've done.
For years, you know, both in editorial and in scripts and just kind of every step along the way To
furthering to Drew's point like making sure they feel heard as we do what would you know a note
stock?
So we take their notes and we just print out their notes and then we insert, you know Like our
initials and just write done or like done is our favorite like
You know, this note done, this note done, this note done, you know, we
we sort of chart those and then we'll have kind of, you know, the, like, not, not writing
defensively, you know what I mean?
Like writing respectfully, but like some of the others, like, Hey, we tried this, but we felt like it
seemed to slow down the scene in a way that didn't feel, you know, helpful to us. Happy to
discuss further. Um. And just kind of leave it at that. And if they want to discuss further, it, it's, it's
not saying this didn't work.
This didn't, you know, it, it's, it's a discussion. It's always a conversation
Oh, God.
Stacy: those docs to have done, done, done, done. Cause you're just building trust, right?
You're saying like, I listened to you. I took it, you know, here it is.
John: Yep.
Stacy: but you could also, uh, do something that's like, you know, adjusted the scene for pace
or massage or whatever.
Like, so you can have something that's not quite done, but that addresses it somehow. I like to
do it.
Drew: ha ha.
Stacy: that part in caps, right? Like, you know, adjusted the pace, put that in caps. And then I go
into an explanation of like, you know, I tried the note as blah, blah, blah, like basically saying I
tried it the way you guys asked for it.
I found that it made things a little bit too dry or a little bit too slow or whatever. So what I did was
I like, for example, um, they were saying, Hey, less devices recently. So, but we decided to keep
the voiceover and not get rid of it. But we said, what we did was. You know, we adjusted it. Yes,
we kept the voiceover, but we thinned it out.
We got rid of all the spoilers. We turned it, you know, saying we addressed it. We changed it, but
we kept it.

John: Yeah,
we got rid of, you know, breaking the fourth wall, you know,
there's these, these three devices we got rid of this one we thinned out and we clear, you know,
clarified, you know, happy to discuss further, you know what I
mean? And then, and,
Stacy: Um,
John: and, it becomes just part of the process. And, you know, and over the course of time, like,

Stacy: emailed you notes, I just want to jump
John: yeah, yeah.
Stacy: actually emailed you the notes, cause you know how we talked about, maybe they'll
email them, maybe it's a notes call. Maybe it's a zoom. If they've emailed you, you can literally
just use their document as the basis of your document that you're sending back to them.
Drew: Correct. Yeah.
Stacy: however, if it's like yesterday where it was a zoom, I took notes during the zoom, I've
turned those into a doc, and then I could use some form of that, you know, that they asked for
four things and, you know, you can type it up in a Word doc and address it. Uh, within that. And,
and by the way, when you do these, keep them all, keep
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Like I like to keep everything so much of this communication is going to happen via
email, but then you're going to be looking for this shit later and you're not going to be able to find
it in your email. It's going to drive you nuts. So I save it all in a series of, you know, lovingly, uh,
named folders.
Drew: And then for, you know, the people out there that have a show that does get going and
everything, the exact same process exists in editorial, you'll get, you know, you'll deliver, you
know, the showrunner cut of episode one, they'll email you, you know, 40 notes. And we do the
same exact thing, just, you know, respond to each one done.
And honestly, if you do anything to address a note, we just call it done and let them go look at it
and see, you know, kind of with Fresh eyes and see if they, they agree that it's done, but you
don't have to, um, overexplain everything. It's really, you kind of have to just explain it when you
tried something that didn't work and why it didn't work, you know?
But, but
Stacy: Okay. So less
John: Yeah.
Drew: yeah, less, less
John: Yeah.

Drew: is more, I think, on the responses. But, uh, it's a good kind of format to communicate with
in both the script phase and in editorial as well.
John: And if you're writing this from a place of defensiveness, that'll come across,
I would just recommend like doing it in a way that's, you know, you're respecting your partners,
you're writing it out. Like, it's not like, well, we tried changing this line, but it didn't work because
the end of the scene says this other line.
And they're like, you know, they might be like, well, you could change that line too. If you
really wanted to give this a fair shot. You know what I
mean? Um,
Stacy: reminder that tone can be hard to communicate written. You know, we've
John: yeah.
Stacy: like texts or
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: that's another reason why less is more, because if you're
John: Yeah.
Stacy: know, seven sentences, uh, via an email, that's probably going to sound defensive.
Drew: yeah.
John: Yeah. And it probably, we, the longer it goes, the more defensive it's probably going to
sound
just as a general, you know,
Stacy: it probably is.
John: yeah,
no, no, it's true. It's true.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: to, to
that point, like Drew and I will often, especially with new partners or, um, you know, if it's a
contested episode or something, Drew and I will often like read each other's note stocks and,
and just make sure we. Take out any language that feel, you know,
almost treat it like a draft of a script or something, take out any language that might sound like
this word sounds a little defensive. Can
we change it to that word? Like, and we'll do that for each other just to, you know, make
sure, um, I don't know, you know, that there's that, what is the book?

The, uh, uh, nonviolent, uh, The Art of
Nonviolent Communication,
or it's called something
like that. And it's a great, great book on just how to, how to speak in ways that is disarming, not,
aggressive. And
I find that
kind of mentality, like, like adopting some of that is really, really helpful. So in summary, yeah,
we talked about, uh, taking notes, processing notes, delivering, you know, notes and really
making, uh, studios, networks feel heard and doing good work for yourself and your, your
project. Um, that's what we covered this week.
Stacy: Yeah. That was a big one.
Drew: Yeah. Thanks for.
Stacy: of the, big part of the business. Thanks everyone. If you like our show, to it, rate it highly,
share it with your friends, get a tattoo, put the tattoo on Instagram. I don't know. Make a TikTok.
That's, uh, where you play us for Halloween. That would be amazing. And,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: also, uh, we'll see you next week.
John: Yeah. Thank y'all for being here.
Stacy: Thank you. Bye.