This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
Stacy: All right, here's the song. If you'd like to be the boss of your own television program, then
listen to the showrunner show.
I like it.
Rich: Woo!
Drew: simple player.
Stacy: I'm hoping you'll add like a little slide whistle at the end, like, some sort of, I was picturing
it going tackety tack, tackety tack, tackety tack. Woo. If you'd like to be the boss, but I just, my
pitch was bad when I did that.
Rich: That was good. How many, how many rewrites do you do on those before you perform
them?
Stacy: Um, I put it in my voice memos and usually about five, usually about five iterations when
I, when I zero out and it's all, I meditate every morning. So Thursday morning, my meditation is
usually just coming up with the. Zippy intro songs.
Rich: And it just, just comes to you.
Stacy: Sure. Yeah.
Rich: Yeah. Nice.
Stacy: The goal is as long as you don't have to have high quality, you know what I mean? As
long as it
doesn't have to be good, no problem. There can always be something new.
Drew: Still, you could give me, you know, a week to come up with one and I would struggle, so.
I, I, I don't know how you do it.
Rich: That sounds like a challenge.
Drew: It'd be a
Rich: Maybe, maybe you guys do need to do
that for one podcast. I
think you might need to try.
Drew: make
me almost have instant panic attacks and if I had to do an intro song, that would
Stacy: Drew, I know
Rich: It's good.
Stacy: Drew left me a happy

Rich: It's good.
Stacy: once years ago, like decades ago. Drew called me and he was leaving like a voice
message and he must have realized part way through that he was singing because he went,
happy birthday to you. And then it just sort of stopped.
Drew: sounds right. Yeah, that sounds right.

Drew: Well, everyone, welcome to the showrunner show where every week we demystify some
aspect of the job of showrunning for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just
wants to know how it's all made. I'm Drew Doudle.
John: I'm John Eric
Stacy: And I'm Stacey Shabosky. Thank you so much for joining us. We're really glad that you're
here.
John: Dowdell. This week we're talking about best practices for working with an editor with
Richard Fox. We've worked with Richard now on two seasons, two seasons of and Richard's
like the killer. When his episodes show up, you're like, great, I have to do nothing. This is
amazing. Um, and uh, he has a special gif for helping navigate episodes, whatever shape they
show up in, to like, something that sparkles.
And so Yeah,
super excited to hear how he does this.
Stacy: I just came up with a song for you, Rich. What does Richard Fox say?
John: Pfft.
Stacy: Cut, intercut, cut, cut, intercut. Cut, cut, cut, cut,
cut, cut, cut, intercut.
Drew: That's pretty good.
John: Pfft. Pfft.
Pfft.
Drew: And
Rich: That was beautiful.
Drew: credit is Rich Fox, right? Do you go by Rich Fox as a credit in case
Rich: I go by,
Drew: up?
Rich: I go by Rich Fox.
Drew: Rich

Stacy: Fox.
Drew: great. Cause I know
Rich: Yeah,
Drew: probably a
Rich: a little more casual.
Drew: a lot of Richard
Foxes out there. So in case anyone was looking you up, I just want to
Rich: Right,
Drew: Clarification.
Stacy: If my name were Richard, I
would definitely go with Rich in the whole Rick, Ricky, Richard, Dick. I mean, maybe part of me
Rich: okay.
Stacy: want to choose Dick because that's amazing, but Rich
Rich: I had,
Stacy: go.
Rich: I had the dick phase in maybe seventh grade. There
was a little bit of that, and I didn't, I didn't,
John: He he ha
Rich: I didn't appreciate it at the time, but now I'm like, bring it on, you know? Like, why do
people not call me that? What's
wrong?
Drew: How did that go for you? Yeah,
John: ha ha
Stacy: Lil
Dicky Fox.
John: choice for seventh grade, you know.
Rich: It wasn't my choice, It was given to me, but if I could do it
over again, I would, if I could do it over again, I would
embrace it. Yes, I would embrace it.

Drew: it.
Stacy: Yep.

Drew: Well, we were
just talking before we recorded, maybe we could just talk about, you know, uh, you know, we're
just coming out of that long WGA strike still in a, you know, actor strike. Um, but we're just
talking about, I think it's kind of an interesting detail, rich that like, know, we're asking, were you
able to stay busy during the strike?
And, uh, you know, were you able to, you know, get some work? Because, you know, most, you
Production jobs have been totally idle. Most, you know, it's, it's an interesting, you know, phase
for a lot of, uh, people in post production of what, you know, kind of work you can pick up. Can
you, you know, share with us again?
Kind of, what pivot you were able to make during this
Rich: Right.
Drew: keep, the lights on.
Rich: Yeah, because it's been a scary time, because I
did have a job when the strike happened, but every day there were, you know, picketers at the
location, and every day we didn't know if we were going to work the next day, and that was
really terrifying. And then the day came when, yeah, we had to pause production, and you think,
well, what am I going to do the rest of the year?
So, luckily for me, you know, I used to work in reality TV, and some of the people that I used to
work with are still on the same show. I used to work on The Bachelor, and um, They just happen

to need some more editors because they are doing the Golden Bachelor now, which is 71 year
old bachelor. So it's been kind of fun.
It's like a show people are talking about. I walked down
the street and the bus will pass me and there's the golden bachelor on the side of the bus. So
it's, it's kind of a trip and
it's been a good thing to like keep me busy, you know, keep my mind engaged and just keep
thinking about editing. Cause when I don't edit for three months, four months and I land on a
show, like it, it takes time, you know,
for those muscles to go back.
I don't know if you guys feel the same way about writing, but like there's a lot of momentum and.
You know, a mental state that goes into it.
And it's hard to have that much downtime and get right back to it. So
Drew: yeah,

Rich: it's been a good diversion for me.
Drew: Yeah, that's great. I mean that shows
John: that's,
Drew: too. It's pretty, pretty great.
Rich: it's interesting, like, how much, you know, of editing applies to different things. You know
what I mean? It's
like storytelling is storytelling. Sometimes I think, oh, when I used to do reality TV, that was so
different. But it's like, you're really still talking about scenes and characters, you know, and
there's a lot of crossover in these different crafts.
And, you know, different things I've done have made me, I think, a better editor in scripted TV,
you know, whether it's working in reality TV documentaries or some of the time I spent writing,
you know, I think those things all contribute to being a better editor.
John: the final draft of the script happens in editorial and, you know, it's, it, it's really the editor,
like a great editor can help you see things with fresh eyes and point things out that, you know,
you may not need this scene, after, , you know, years of developing it and, you know, and
torturing it and seeing what you can do without, you know, it's often the editor that really, like,
helps you see it, you know, anew.
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: Yeah,
Rich: Yeah.
Drew: many times that comment comes out of like do you need this scene at all? You know an
editor
Stacy: Like,
Drew: that it's
Stacy: huh?
Drew: we need it You know,
Stacy: Ha ha.
Drew: and
Stacy: Uh.
Drew: forever and and then you think about it You're like, hmm. Do we learn anything new here?
Do we you know? do we need it? And, uh, it's an interesting part of the process where those
scenes aren't necessary really become, uh, so clear. Only in editorial, somehow it's like a phase
of the process that those, you know, things become, that clarity really comes through.
Rich: Yeah, it's, it's interesting you say that because I was thinking about your podcast and what
would you say to like a showrunner that maybe wasn't comfortable working with editors um, that
hadn't maybe done it before. And I would maybe say, well, think of the editor not that much

different than you think about your writers.
You know, it's part of the same team of storytellers that are, you know, helping produce this story
and this episode and. talk to us the same way you would talk to people on your writing staff, you

know? We still speak the same language of story, and narrative, and characters, and perfor I
mean, performance is, is, you know, where it moves into a different realm, but it's still, it's still
very similar, you know?
We don't speak like a special language as editors, it's not really a technical craft, you know? It's
the same creative process that you
guys are going through when you're writing.
Drew: 100 percent agree.
Stacy: I'm surprised to hear you call it
not a technical craft. That's, that's
Rich: Yeah.
Drew: I,
Rich: Yeah.
I think, yeah.
Drew: I think it's right hand in hand with the director, honestly, you know, it seems, you know, in
terms of crafting performance and, you know, and, you know, like you said, it's almost part of
your writing staff, like really, you know, editors like yourself, Rich, that like, really have such a
strong sense of story and strong sense of performance like that.
That really is the best talent you can have as an editor, in my opinion, is performance and story
more than it is anything technical. I agree with that.
Rich: Yeah, for sure. I think that's the part of editing that people like don't really understand.
Even a lot of showrunners that I've worked with is how much of the performances, you know,
how important part of our job that is crafting those performances. You know, people don't really
realize that nobody else will ever have the opportunity to watch every.
of every scene. There's not time. The director doesn't have time in four days and you guys don't
have time either. We can go pinpoint into a scene and say, okay, show me every take of this
line. Or maybe there's a scene that's really a big problem and we just want to work through it
together, but no one else will.
See every take of every scene. And that is like a responsibility that I take really seriously, you
know, because I know that I have that knowledge and
I need to like bring that out in every time when, as soon as I start working on dailies, you know,
that process starts of taking it so seriously, you know, that the performances are so important,
you know, giving a baseline of an editor's cut that has good performances to me is the most
important thing.
That I'm doing.

That's the thing I'm most proud of to bring to it. Yeah.
Stacy: So you're not just out of, I mean, we have
this whole list of awesome questions. I feel like
Rich: Mhmm.
Stacy: but so it's not that you're
just like, wow, there were four setups for this scene. one was beautiful. That's so you're not
necessarily thinking of the beauty of the setups or the visual beauty of the total thing.
It's more like finding those great performances.
Rich: Right. To me, I'm thinking of visually as like a secondary part of the process.
I'm going into putting a scene together for the first time, you know, first time looking at the script
again and making sure I really understand, like, the story that we're trying to tell and the story
that you guys... Um, and then I'm really focused on the performances more than anything.
Just like what grabs me, what sucks me and what makes me emotional. What are those
moments in the performance that really selling that story? I just try to lose myself in those
performances and that almost tells me what to do. I try to turn off like the intellectual part of my
brain and just like feel the scene.
And if the performances are good, that's so much fun to do, you
know, cause it just. Draws me in and that's what pulls me through because you can get lost in
those decisions, right? Like there's so many
setups and takes and what do I do? And if I just I find if I stay focused on the performances it
guides the decisions For me much easier
and then as a second pass, I'll think visually more right like okay Am I mixing in the wide shot
enough?
You know, do we have a perspective on where we are? What's the most interesting way? to
come into a scene. So I will do a visual pass, but like I said, it's almost like a second pass.
Drew: Yeah. That's such an awesome process. Like that really shows, you know, like that's,
Rich: Yep.
Drew: you know, I think when we watch it, editors got, that's the one thing that, you know, if the
performances feel great, we're like, wow, this episode is in great shape. Maybe it's a little long.
Maybe we could pace it up here a little bit.
You know, you always have thoughts, but like if the performances feel great, you feel great
about the episode. And that really is, that trumps everything. Truly.
John: let's just jump back and give a
Drew: Yeah.
John: overview of the TV editorial process. Like, so you get dailies. Will you talk us through sort
of the, the kind of big steps on the way from getting dailies to final cut?

Rich: Sure. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, because of budgets, I don't start until maybe the day
before they're shooting my episodes on my own time I've had, hopefully I've written, read the
scripts and, you know, had some conversations, so I have some clue what's going on and then
the daily start coming in pretty fast and it's our job to keep up with camera.
So what you shoot on Monday. I'll edit on Tuesday, and it's a first pass of the scenes, it's rough,
but, you know, I have to at least try to do a first pass on that scene or I'll just get too far behind,
because when shooting stops, you know, then I have three days to put together what's called
the editor's cut, um, and, you know, I take it really seriously delivering a really good editor's cut
with Sound and sound design and you guys know I work with a great assistant Brian who does
an amazing job with sound and we really want to deliver that to the director so they can, you
know, be sucked into the story and feel like, oh, you know, I'm going on a journey watching this.
So,
Drew: Mm hmm.
Rich: um, again, time and TV is everything. You just never have enough time. So you have
three days for that editor's cut. Then you work with the director for about four days. Um, and
then you turn it into the showrunners, typically. Um, and then, I don't know, I'd say it's maybe,
what, about two weeks that you guys have?
A week to two weeks before then the... The studio's going to want to see it, and then the
network's going to want to see it, and then you just go through this process of a variety of cuts,
um, finally landing on picture lock, um, which usually doesn't mean you're completely finished
with picture, but let's say you're 98 percent finished with picture, then you can turn it over to the
sound department.
And then, you know, maybe we have a sound spotting where we all talk about it, and, you know,
the composer comes in and listens to my temp music and decides, okay, based on this. I kind of
want to go in this direction, you know, with the score. You've got sound people working in
another location, fixing the dialogue, working on the sound design, and then we all land together
in the sound mix, and then everything looks and sounds great, and then we're finished.
Drew: you
know, for a point of context to just point of comparison with movies, that's, that's one thing that,
you know, guys that came from movies and then later into TV, it was always kind of mind
blowing the, the, the speed of post in TV, you know, in movies, you have a, you wrap the show
and then you have what a two week editor's cut, and then you have a 12 week director's cut,
Rich: Right,
Drew: where TV, uh,
four day cut, and I mean, you're basically turning over the studio after, you know, between the
editor's cut, director's cut and showrunner cut, you know, in just over two weeks. You know, it's
really, uh, and a movie's 90 minutes and a TV show's, you know, just under 60 minutes. So it's
Stacy: right?
Drew: that different in length of content.
So it's really just a crazy speed.

John: one of the upsides is it kind of beats the, uh, You know, our you know, perfectionistic
streak
Stacy: Mm-hmm.
John: let's add a couple frames here. No, let's take those back out. Let's try
Rich: right,
Drew: Mm-hmm.
John: like you're just like kind of running for your life and it sort of beats that perfectionism out of
you or, you know, or you just die.
Like, how do you deal, how do you deal with that? Like,
Rich: right,
John: going through all the dailies, you're making cuts of every day. Like, do you have to just
stay really intuitive and just
Rich: right.
John: Like, how do you manage
Rich: Yeah, I mean that was very overwhelming at first, right? The idea of the speed and having
to keep up. And, I don't know, at some point you just learn to, like, trust your instincts. And
usually your first instincts are
amongst your best instincts, you know? And, um, yeah, you'll get a lot of feedback along the
way, and a lot of great ideas that will make it better.
You know, things that I couldn't see in that short amount of time. But, you know, you just have to
learn to trust those instincts and just go with it. There's no time to do anything different. If you
overthink it or if you get stuck on like one part, you're ignoring all the other parts that you won't
have time to get to.
So yeah, part of it is just keep moving. And it's like, I don't know, assume it's the same
sometimes with writing that you just have to get that first draft. written quickly,
right? Get something down on paper. So
then you have something to read, and then you have something to rewrite. And a lot of times I'll
approach a scene the same way.
Just get something down. Just get a version out. Because then maybe I'll watch it the next day,
and then I'll have something to look at. And I'll say, okay, reacting to this. You know, now I could
see how to shape this scene a little better or a different point of view I can attach to it. So I think
just keep moving and don't think too much, you know, there's a good way to look at it.
And then I feel like, you know, big picture there ultimately is enough time to get to everything.
You just have to sort of trust in the process. Like if I don't have time to try something and maybe
the director doesn't, but at some point along the process, something. On an episode that needs
work, a scene, or a story, at some point we're going to get there.
And that's important to just trust, that like, you guys are going to watch it and you're, you know,
really good at saying, okay, this is what's working. This is what's not working. Let's hone in on

these areas that aren't working. So knowing that I trust you guys, it makes it easier for me, right?
Just to like, okay, there's some things I have to let go at this phase,
Drew: Yeah,
Rich: knowing ultimately everything will be addressed, hopefully.
Drew: yeah,
Rich: And usually it is,
Stacy: In scripts, I fill that in with XXX, like, cause you don't want, you can get bogged down.
You can be like, I mean, can get sucked into a vortex where you're on one sentence for two and
a half hours. And that's not good
Rich: yeah.
Stacy: So I do a lot of like, get it at it XXX. And that means, you know, go back to it.
Then at the
Rich: Mm hmm.
Stacy: top of the script. I do a splat F and look for those XXXs. If I'm lucky, there's like three.
And if I'm unlucky, there's like 45. I'm like, Oh,
Drew: Damn
John: but but you
Stacy: but you get, through it.
John: I, I, do versions of that too, like, like
Stacy: Yeah,
John: like, fill in the scene here, like, you know, I, I don't have a good description for a, you
know, a thing or like, I don't, I don't want to go on Google and find out how this
Stacy: totally.
John: or whatever, you know, and I'll just sort of
Stacy: Mm hmm.
Drew: Yeah. I mean, to that point too, I think one thing I've, I've had to learn in TV is that.
doesn't have to be perfect on your director's cut. It doesn't have to be perfect on your
showrunner's cut. You, a scene is not a problematic scene, John, you always tell me this too,
like, we'll have more licks at this.
We'll have more licks at this. You know, it doesn't, you don't have to get all your licks in every
single. Every single delivery and just knowing like, this scene's working, a few things in my brain
that I think we can do a little bit better, but we'll have another chance to do it and we don't have
to, you know, torture every detail on every, every cut because you just will never get it done and
you'll never get it in and, uh, and that's, that's been hard, a hard thing, you know. to kind of
accept, I think, to kind of, you know, just roll with it more. And it's a little more jazz, a little bit
more, loose in, uh, but ultimately I think really good. Like you're saying, like you're, you really

have to rely on those first instincts and, and, be okay. Letting things go too. And I think that's
really helpful on TV and you've, you know, the perfectionism does get, you know, beat down,
which is nice.
John: I gotta say season one of Pick
Drew: Yeah.
John: and I had this, uh, workflow at the end of season one, we're like, okay, we would like, I
feel like we're working, like doing too
Stacy: Mm.
John: it was like, I would work on a script and then give it to Drew and then he'd give me notes
and then I'd do the notes.
And then Drew would work on a script and then give me, to me and I'd give him like, and we
were creating like double the drafts of
Stacy: Mm.
John: step along the way. Um, And we learned to be like, hey, you know, not just trust
ourselves, but like
Drew: Yeah.
John: like, you know what I mean? Like, I'll read it, you know, with the, with the studio when
Drew's ready, you know, as opposed to me creating a whole second draft in the middle of it and
vice
Drew: Yeah.
John: been really helpful, some
Drew: Yeah, and in editorial, to that point, like, we were both doing every cut, both of it. Just,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: like, you know, we decided, you know, if I was directing an episode, for example, I would
do the director's cut, and then John would just do the showrunner cut. I wouldn't even look at it.
It goes in, and I would just know in my head, like, If John did anything, like, anything out that I
love and want to bring back, like, I'll have a chance to, you know, It'll still be open, the episode
will still be open for a while and there's still time and
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: go of that having to see every change and sign off on absolutely everything because just
impossible
Stacy: I have a kind of an internal workflow question for you, Rich, which is, it sounds like you
take it very seriously. You're there from the beginning and you're very intuitive. So I'm wondering
if it's one of those things where when you're on an episode. it sort of eat into your, okay, by the
way, I just went to a women's retreat, fairytale and dream incubation weekend.
So this question is coming from this,

but does it sort of infiltrate? Is it the kind
Rich: ha.
Stacy: where you like wake up in the morning and the first thing you're thinking about is ideas
for the episode and you're brushing your teeth and you're thinking about the episode and like, as
you're falling asleep at night or in the middle of the night when you wake up, like
Rich: Right.
Stacy: of always, is it like that where it's always there?
Are you one of those people who's like, it's 6 30, it's dinnertime. I've got a
Rich: Yeah,
Stacy: My mind shuts off.
Rich: right, right. It kind of builds to that, what you're saying, like, as I build towards doing my
editor's cut, I get more and more immersed, you know, cause that three days is so intense and
there's, I have to be in such like a creative place that
I almost just submit to it, you know, all the time. Like you said, when I wake up, when I go to
sleep, I'm thinking about it when I'm walking around,
taking breaks, um, but that will burn you out over the long run, right?
So, you know, the good thing about my position is. You know, then there's times when I get to
relax a little bit and say, okay, now the director is kind of coming in with their perspective. You
guys are coming in with your perspective, you know? So then I, there's times when I'm kind of
leading the charge and, you know, let myself go all the way there.
And then there's other times when I can kind of take a step back and realize, okay, now I'm
following a little bit more, you know, still supporting, still bringing ideas, um, but following a little
bit more. So it kind of has a nice ebb and flow to it.
Stacy: I like that. That's nice.
Drew: That
is
nice. I can't tell you how many times with Rich I would have like a moment where I'd see your
editor's cut. I'm like, Oh, that's a really good take of that moment. And I love it. It's really good.
But I remember there was a better one. I remember, you know, I was there that day and there's
another one that's even better.
Rich: Yeah.
Drew: sign it, you know, like, uh, and then you go dig it up and then, you know, sure enough, the
one you selected is, is actually better. It's funny how
Stacy: Oh.
Drew: from the day is often, know, a little off and like, you know, the editor is like the truly
objective, judgment on all of the material and

Rich: Yeah.
Drew: time I think, oh, wait, no, no, but I remember there's something better.
It's, it's, I'm almost 100 percent wrong. And, uh, yeah, it's,
Rich: It's just one of the advantages that we have is that we do have fresh eyes. You know,
when I
look at a scene, I don't know any of the backstory. I don't know what went wrong. I don't know
who was sick that day. I don't know what arguments you guys had with the network
over what the scene was supposed to be.
And sometimes I feel with showrunners, they're bringing a lot of like past, you know, issues
into the cut. You know, like
almost working through problems that I don't always see. I'm like, well, I think this performance
is good. I know you guys didn't get along or, you know, it wasn't what you thought it was going to
be, but Objectively for me, it's, it's, it's working.
So,
Drew: it.
Rich: know, that doesn't mean that, you know, that's right. And then we shouldn't try to make it
what the original tent was intent was. Cause sometimes that that's important to do is make it
back to the original tent, but intent, but it's still helpful to get my perspective to that, like, well,
this is working on its own.
And that's another way to go is to embrace just what it is,
you know,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that's one of my like post, it's a surrender
Stacy: Mm.
John: like, you know, some days you show up and it's raining and it's, it's supposed to be a
picnic scene, but it's raining and you're like, I guess we're shooting the scene in the car, , you
know, or whatever. And you like, it's interesting us, you know, from the short running side, like
often, you know, the director had a slightly different take on.
You know, this intimate scene is now a walk and
Stacy: Yeah.
John: like, like certain things are just different than how we imagined it, you know, in the writer's
room or pitched it internally or how the, you know, writer's room decided the scene was going to
be this kind of a thing. But then the director and the actor sort of took it in this direction on the
day. And then to see that in the cut, there's just all these things that are for me, you know, I'll
speak for myself, for me personally. Like. Okay, that's different than I imagined, but does that

make it wrong or just
Rich: Right.
John: know what I mean? And that, that can be a real process, you know, for me, you know, just
sorting through like, okay, I didn't visualize it this way, but it actually might be better.
I just have to let my brain catch up to, the difference, if that makes
Stacy: Mm
Rich: Makes sense to me. I would think
from your standpoint, it would be challenging to see something that's different in so many ways.
I would think you almost need to watch it twice to like, have the first reaction of like, wait, what's
this? What's that? And then the second time, maybe you can just see it for what it is.
Um, and I know from an
editorial standpoint, it's one reason why, like, Knowing you're having that experience and even
the director who shot the episode is someone having that experience like wanting it to be
So polished, you know is so hopefully you can get lost in a little bit and
just go on the narrative journey right and have like A genuine experience with the story that's
there and see the problems that are there not like what you were expecting You know try to
increase the odds that you can kind of get lost in it.
Because then there's problems, new problems, that like, you didn't think you were gonna have,
and then when you watch it objectively,
you're like, well, I was worried about all these other things. Actually, the problem's over here, you
know.
Drew: Yeah.
Rich: the quicker we can get to that,
and to like, see what we're actually, you know, dealing with, the better, I think.
Stacy: editorial?
John: some things you wish to every showrunner knew about editorial like oftentimes, you know
a lot of showrunners I assume I assume a lot of showrunners especially you know in new in their
show running journey may have never been in post before maybe maybe came up as writers
and Haven't really spent time in editorial what are some things like I assume you've experienced
all kinds, like, you know, people who are very experienced in editorial?
and people who don't, don't have a, you know, language for it yet.
Um, what are some things you wish knew, uh, when they came into editorial,
Rich: it's a great question, because I can tell, obviously, when showrunners are a lot more
experienced, and, for example, they do kind of things that you guys are saying you had along
your journey, which is like, they're able to... Let go of details earlier in the process,

right? Like, I think it's so important when you first watch a cut to think, like, really big picture and
really communicate, like, at a very top level, like, what about the story is working and what is not
working, right?
And to not just send an email with specific notes, but to really, like, have a conversation. About
what was the experience of watching this episode, and how did I feel, you know, and what do I
want to feel, and what am I missing when I watch this episode. Again, just really relate to it from
a very, like, narrative standpoint.
Cause I find, like, some showrunners that haven't had as much editing experience kind of get
lost in, like, these details of, like, this edit's not working, you know, or this transition is a little bit
off. And those are the things that we're ultimately gonna get to, right? the thing that we should
be talking about at first.
So
that would be one thing I would say.
Drew: it's so helpful to me. Because a lot of times we don't know that. So
they're supposed to be very tense. Hearing that helps me know what they shouldn't the
potentials are way over there.
John: more of broad notes? Like I, I, you know, like I feel like, you know, I wanted the scene or
this episode to play a little like, is that more helpful than the little minutiae and maybe doing the
first pass is just very broad. Uh, general thoughts and then drilling down as time
Rich: Yeah, like what you said is a great note, like I wish this episode would play tenser, you
know? Like that's so helpful to me. Because a lot of times we don't know that, you know? It's
like, sometimes episodes are supposed to be very tense, you know? And sometimes it's not
about that. You know, and so just hearing that just tells me, okay, what was the intent of this
episode?
It was to create tension, you know, it was to make the character feel so tense that, you know,
they're going to crack at some point or they're going to do something wrong, you know, that they
shouldn't do, but because of the tension and we need the audience. to feel that tension and
really understand that tension.
Like those are great overall notes that are so helpful to me because I can take one note like that
and filter through like the whole episode. You know, I can apply it to every scene. I can rethink
the temp music that I had in there, you know, based,
Stacy: Dun dun dun dun dun just put that on everything
Rich: there you go.
John: Yeah.
Rich: That sometimes
is where you
have to go.
Like sometimes that's the last.

John: Yeah.
Rich: that I got, but I try to not have it to be the first option that I have, you know It's like usually
it's
like
Drew: Yeah.
John: push in. Like, we once had an actor who was just like, you know. Just nothing, giving us
nothing. And we're like, we just added some
Rich: yeah
John: score and did a push in and
Drew: Yeah, wow.
John: that performance, was amazing. It's like there was nothing,
Rich: Right.
Stacy: like a twinkle in the eye.
Drew: I mean,
Rich: Mm hmm.
Drew: it
Rich: Hey.
John: Yeah.
Drew: what you can do. Like, it's incredible how you could say, I want this episode to feel
hilarious and, you know, and, you know, light hearted, and then you could say, I want this
episode to feel, like, super tense. And you could literally take the same footage and... Create
two totally different episodes.
I mean, it's, it, it ceases to blow my mind how, how much you can manipulate an episode in
editorial. It's really
the
Rich: Right.
Drew: It's
Rich: There's so much you can do to
shape the tone, right, of a scene, of an episode, and to your previous question, it's like, what, do
I kind of wish, you know, showrunners knew or thought about? It's just like, communicating
those things are so important. You
know, as, as editors, a lot of times we don't get that information.

Drew: Yeah.
Rich: sometimes we're the last to like, hear something about a story or an idea or what's the
episode about.
Um, and so. being included in all that from an earlier stage is really helpful because if I'm like,
trying to hit the same points in the same tone, um, it's so helpful. We're just, we're just going to
get there faster.
Now, we might change along the way or we might make different decisions as we go, but it's still
really nice to be included in those conversations. And, you know, really, um, again, just
communication, you
know, I think a lot of times there's not enough communication with editors, you know, we're kind

of working in a vacuum and feel people feel like, well, we'll have time to have those
conversations later,
but then what you've done is you've lost all this time that an editor has been working on the
episode and
it could have been more productive time.
It could have been more efficient time if we already had some of that information and we didn't
just wait until we got into Producers cut to like learn some of those things
Stacy: Are you ever invited or even permitted? Cause one thing we talk about a lot on the show
is that there's just such a hierarchy of etiquette and what, who's allowed to communicate what to
whom, you know,
Rich: Right
Stacy: say, for example, you know, that you're going to supposed to cut something together.
That's supposed to be funny.
So
Rich: Mm hmm,
Stacy: for example, have a lot more reaction shots. This is something that obsesses me
because anyway, um, like you need. stuff with faces because faces are funny and you need to
be able to cut to them. Are you able to say, like, Hey, director, or hey, showrunner, or whatever,
like, I could use a little more of this.
Or opposite, you know, I could use more swishy camera motion because, boy, this is what I'm
seeing is really static and you want
Rich: right
Stacy: Are you allowed to say that? Or would that be considered, like, no, no, rude, or is it, or
does it vary show to show? I'm just
Rich: It very right
Stacy: pre production and production a one way street where people just tell you stuff or can
you reverse it?

Rich: It's a little hard as an editor to give too much feedback at an early stage, you know what I
mean? Because then you're stepping on the director's toes and you're not involved in all the
conversations, so it's hard to interject yourself when you don't know everything that's being said
or what's already been planned.
So it's, it's, at that stage it's more helpful for me just to like, listen to conversations, you know?
Sometimes a tone meeting will be recorded, because maybe... They don't want an editor on the
call, you know, cause it's too many people talking, but sometimes I get to listen to them later,
you know, and that's helpful just to hear that, you know, and, and ingest that information.
And then in terms of feedback, it's almost like depends on the director. Cause that, you know, is
an interesting relationship with the editor too, because some directors don't communicate with
us until. their director's cut, you know, but some directors will call us before they start shooting
and We'll call throughout production and we'll call at the end of their day to vent to me and and
and that's cool too because then I'm getting again more information and Sometimes they do
want feedback.
Sometimes directors will say like how did how is this performance going? What do you think or
you know, how how how is the coverage here? You know
and please let me know if I miss Um, and then, you know, I just have to be careful, because I
don't know the director that well, so I don't want to be critical, I don't want to seem like I'm
criticizing them, but like, if I feel like there's something they really need to hear, and they're open
to that communication, then I will share that, you know, like.
You know, or maybe I'm missing something. Maybe they had a plan and I just didn't get it. And
me
asking that question, they could say, Oh no, we've got this. We're going to do X, Y, Z. So that
communication with the director during production can be really helpful and gives me sometimes
a little bit of a voice to give some feedback.
Stacy: Hmm. That's really smart.
John: recording the tone meeting
Drew: I know I'm
Stacy: Mm hmm. Mm
John: like
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: hmm. Mm
Drew: definitely guilty of not like, you know.
John: uh,
Drew: Talking to the editor too much ahead of time, you know, as far as, you know, what's
important in the scene, what's not, you know, like I'm, I'm clocking that now myself and saying
like, I need to, I need to be more communicative with the, with the editor earlier and not just wait
for a cut and give notes, you know, like you can probably get ahead, get a, you know,

Rich: Yep.
Drew: running
Rich: hmm.
Drew: better if, uh, you know, just even the intention, the tone.
Yeah. Like you said, the tone meeting, the tone of each scene and what the, if that's
communicated beforehand, that can make a huge difference. Yes.
Rich: I think it helps, and you guys are so
busy, right? It's like, I
know talking to the editor can be the last thing you have time for when you're shooting next
week. It's
like, on your priority level, obviously shooting next week is more important than a cut you're
gonna have to deal with, like, in a month or two, right?
But like, just a little bit amount of time goes a long way, I would say,
in communicating with editors. It doesn't have to be that much.
Drew: Yeah.
Yeah.
Stacy: It sounds actually like maybe some people use
you as a therapist and maybe that's not the most idea ideal.
Rich: That could happen. I don't
mind though. I don't know.
It's kind of nice to hear some stories from
set because we don't get to hear this stuff.
Sometimes it's nice,
you know, just to like be included in some gossip. I don't really
mind that.
Stacy: good.
Rich: Sometimes directors in the
director's four days. Sometimes the first half a day is just
Drew: Venting,
Rich: haven't had anyone, they haven't

had someone they can cry to.
Drew: Yeah.
Rich: say, in this
scene, I wanted to do this,
and I didn't get to because of X, Y, Z. And it's actually, again,
it's useful time for us to kind of like, form our connection.
Because four days is a very short amount of time to like, establish, you know, a connection to
someone and be able to collaborate. So,
Stacy: Yeah.
Rich: can be helpful just to like,
John: Yeah.
Rich: some stories.
Drew: Yeah. I definitely use the editor as a bit of a therapist at points too. Especially when it's,
like, You know, it was raining and we only had a chance to do this one big thing, one take. Like,
please, please tell me it's good enough. You know, please tell me you can make this work and
Stacy: Ah,
Drew: terrible.
Like,
Stacy: yeah.
Drew: even if you think it's terrible, just tell me it's not. You know, cause
Rich: Right,
Stacy: lie to me.
Rich: right.
Drew: to me, just
Rich: Yeah.
Drew: me. That's
John: I know editorial is really like a, like a speed therapist, like intensive therapy. It's like, you
got four days to get
Rich: Right.
John: and, uh, and I think too, like, you know, there's like, Drew and I like, you know, like to say
like, there's the thing you intended to shoot. But That's

never what you end up with, you know what I mean?
And so there's like, there is a death process to the thing you meant to shoot. then there's like,
this new process of finding like, well, okay, what, what do we have? what is the best version of
what we have, you know, versus what we intended. Because like, even when we're directing,
like, you know, I'll speak for myself.
When I'm directing, it's never like, I'm like, Oh, this is so much better in my head. know, and you
have to sort of let it, Let that vision die so that you can
Drew: it, yeah.
John: thing really wants to be, not what you, not what you are trying to will from your original
intent. And that, that process can be really emotionally, you know, in our first number of movies
like It became like a, like a cycle.
I would call Stacy and like,
Drew: Heh heh heh heh heh heh.
John: it. The first two weeks of editorial, I'd be like, Oh my god, I fucked this up so bad, like,
they're gonna kill me. Like, this is horrible, I don't know. Like, and she'd be like, Just give it a
couple weeks, you know,
Stacy: I'd be like, we have young children. Figure it out. I'm just kidding.
John: LAUGHS
Stacy: I'm still an actor. I
Rich: Nice.
Stacy: money at all.
Rich: Wow. . No pressure.
Stacy: No pressure. Yeah.
Rich: No pressure.
John: pressure, but, but then slowly you pick away at it and you have, you know, and for me it
was always that death process of letting go of the
Rich: yeah. Mm-hmm.
John: and then finding like, okay, now that I've let go of that original intent, like what, what does
this actually want to be and how do I support it in this being not what, not
Drew: Yeah.
John: but what it wants. And, you know, the, the editor like, Yeah.
it's such a key part of that. Like, you know, when you were saying earlier, like, do you need this
scene? Like, I feel like That
process is always like, do you, I wonder if you actually need this

Rich: right?
John: course we need the scene. This is the best scene.
This is the most important scene. And then I go to Drew and I'm like,
Rich: That
John: the scene?
Drew: And then we go through the, we go through the, list, like,
do we learn this information somewhere else?
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: Uh,
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: the list. You're like, I
guess we technically don't need this,
Stacy: you have? Yeah.
Rich: right.
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: it is.
John: a humbling process, like,
Stacy: Hmm.
Rich: Yeah, I mean you
mentioned like therapy and I know, I know what it's like being on your side of it and the, the
director and like the insecurity that comes from like seeing footage and scenes and feeling like
this wasn't, you know, what we intended. And I do feel that's like part of my job, you know, when
something, when I feel something is good to say it, you
know, and to like. Tell a director or tell a showrunner, no, this scene is good and this
performance is good. I know it's not what you had in mind, but you should feel good about it for,
for this reason. And I feel like, you know, a lot of directors need to hear that, you know,
Drew: totally.
Rich: shows, because they're feeling very insecure, you know, about what they shot.
Um,
and a lot of times I just feel like, no, like, I know this was hard to shoot and you did a great job,
you know, and I feel that's like the personal part of my job, you

know, and it also helps like establish a good relationship, you know, so they feel like you
appreciate the work that they did, you know, and then maybe they're open to appreciating the
work that I did, you
know, and then it's like, it's a good back and forth.
So I'm usually I try to be very open with praise because I feel a lot of editors can be very
negative. You know, they only look at what doesn't work. It's like, Oh, you screwed up this
scene. You didn't get what I needed or,
you know. I don't know, some editors, they feel they're a little bit bitter, maybe, you know, it's not
their thing.
So they are more critical. And I kind of feel like it's important to be the opposite, you
know, to really bring like a lot of positivity to the process, you
know, because I know what you guys are going through is hard. Like you said, it's like the death
process almost, right? So like, if I'm also feeling a death process, then we're not having fun,
you know, so. you know, I want to bring, like, a
lot of positive energy and say, No, this is good. This is a good episode. You know, we just have a
little bit of work to do, you know, and I feel like that's, you know, one of my roles.
Stacy: That sounds so good, not only emotionally, sorry Drew, but also creatively, because I feel
like that can be so helpful. You know, in any part of the creative process, you just want to do
more of the good stuff that's working and less of the bad stuff that's not working at the script
level, at
whatever level. So I think creatively, that's probably extremely helpful too, to go, these are all the
things that are working super well.
Drew: yeah,
Stacy: do more of that. Does
that make
Rich: Right.
Stacy: Yes.
Rich: Yeah, because sometimes directors, showrunners,
I feel, don't like, appreciate what, what is good about
it, you know? And getting sucked into the negativity kind of brings the whole process down and
makes everyone feel bad about, you know, what you're doing. And I feel like, like, base level,
you asked again, like, you know, what do I wish some showrunners knew about the process?
Like, we should be having fun. I mean, we really should be enjoying it. You know, we're going to
do better work if we are Enjoying the process. You know, that's something I learned early on
from, you know, uh, uh, a supervising editor that I work with, this guy, Tim Good, and we were
on a show and it was just kind of a disaster, but like he came in every day with like so much
positive energy and we're going to fix this and this is going to be great.

And sometimes I was like, you're delusional. This is a disaster. But okay, if you are telling me
we're going to have fun today, then I'm going to go with you. Right?
So that's just always my model of like, okay, no matter how bad things appear, you're going to
do better work. Okay. If you're having fun and if you have a positive attitude and if you
appreciate that you get to have this job and work in television, you know, it's all kind of exciting
and fun thing to do.
So I try to, like, as much as possible, like, keep that spark going. Obviously, it's hard when
people around you are being really negative and kind of bringing you down, but I try to do what I
can to, like, contribute to that.
Drew: it's amazing how, important that
what you're saying is that, you know, you did a good job. This episode is good. We'll get it there.
Like just hearing that is, you know, as a showrunner, you can kind of look at another director's
work and say, okay, there's some stuff we'll figure it out.
You're just a less, a little less emotionally attached. But if you directed the episode, like, I can't
tell you how much I've needed that, you know,
Stacy: Mmm.
Drew: one of the director's cut is just that affirmation is so.
Rich: Mm hmm.
Drew: because it really is, you know, I love what you're saying, John, too, as being this like, you
know, death of the perfect ideal that you had in your mind, you know, it's like a living, breathing
thing that is still being raised.
You know, it's like having a kid. You think your kid's going to be, you know, when they're an
infant, they're going to be a straight A student. They're going to be great at sports. They're going
to be, you know, the coolest kid in school, they're going to be all the things and then time, you
know, does its thing and they're like, okay, well maybe not, you know. You know, any of those
things is perfect, you know, but you know, this could still be, you know, an absolutely great kid,
you know, and that,
Stacy: Are you
Drew: and that might be
Stacy: Yeah,
John: be better.
Drew: there is no perfect. There is no perfect episode. You know, there's not,
Stacy: Are you letting go of your little soccer star? Are you realizing Fr Freddy's now Ha ha ha
ha ha!
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: She can be a ballet star or a soccer star, but probably not both. Hmm.
Drew: Oh, probably

Stacy: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Drew: Yeah. One or the other.
Stacy: two. I think we should mention that She's two. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha. Ha.
John: Uh,
Drew: Uh,
John: let's wrap this one up and that will come in
Rich: Great.
John: for the next.
Drew: We're going to
come back and talk about, uh, tips to fix a broken episode, which I think will be really
Rich: Ooh,
Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
John: If you like our show Please consider taking a moment to subscribe and rate us wherever
you get your podcasts and please tell a friend that really helps us
Find our audience
Stacy: Thanks so much.
Drew: Thanks so much,
Rich. We'll see
you in the
Rich: Thanks. Thanks, guys.
Stacy: flip flop.