This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
Stacy: Okay. This is the fifth time we've tried to sing an intro song and it just keeps crashing.
When we do, I think it's God smiting us, but let's see. Boom. Cha cha. Boom. Cha cha, boom
cha. It's the Showrunner show. Okay. Andy and Lauren. It's The
Andy: Okay, it's the showrunner.
Stacy: Show. It's the show. Rhonda Show.
Andy: show.
Stacy: show. Nailed it.
Jed: That is so bad. Each one is worse than the next
Andy: you really, you really abandoned me. Lauren. We're gonna be talking about, we're gonna
be
Jed: and.
Andy: talking about teams I know. Leaving me, hanging out to dry.
Stacy: this reminds me of when our son, uh, Johns and my son was doing School of Rock and
then the pandemic and it was great, right? They would all get together and play. They were like
really good. And then the pandemic hit and they kept trying to do it remotely. So, oh my God.
Hearing new musicians like this with like a zoo, because that's why it was a disaster, Ray, cuz
we're, you know, our timing isn't right.
Uh, it was the same thing. Just like ramp,
Andy: would've been a disaster for me in person also. So
Stacy: no, a hundred percent. No, I could
Drew: kudos for the effort. Kudos for the effort there. That
Jed: Yeah, kudos for the effort. Well, welcome to the Show Runners Show, where every week
we de demystify some aspect to the job of show running. For anyone who works in tv who wants
to work in TV or just wants to know how it's all made, uh, this week we're talking with. Uh,
Lauren Mackenzie and Andrew Getten, who, uh, yay, who are two of the best people we've met
in the industry in our, you know, entire time.
Like Drew, drew and I were lucky enough to have two season twos green lit at the same time,
and we were immediately like in panic mode and we asked everyone like, who can actually. Do
the job of running this show because we, we don't have time. And just over and over we kept
hearing, uh, Lauren and Andy's names, uh, and we're like, whatever it takes, we need to like,
get these guys.
And like
Drew: And their names are always, their names are always, uh, you know, uh, coupled with, you
know, Ken and Mackenzie are incredible, but you'll never get 'em, you know, if you can get 'em.
So we're lucky enough

Jed: in demand and we're like, we'll do anything we need, you know, we need them. And uh,
and we met with them and just like loved them. And they're just good people. They're, you know,
they're patient and kind with the people who work with, like, if you ever have the chance to work
in a room with them, they're the best.
And if you watch, you know, Waco aftermath, like. My favorite scenes and my favorite moments,
even in my own episodes, I'm like, oh, that moment's so Andy. You know what I mean? Or that
moment's. So Lauren like, and it's like my favorite moments, like, you know, in my own episodes
are, you know, moments that you guys put in there.
There's, there's a moment where, you know, cog doll's in the bathroom and a guy's cornered
him and he is like, You know, get outta my way before I have to throw a punch and embarrass
us both. Like, that's one of my favorite lines in the whole series. And, and, uh, I, I know that's
one of the two of you. Like, that's just, you know, um, but they're
Stacy: You guys were great in Always. I just wanna jump in to say you guys basically channeled
Dan Cogdell. I think you did some sort of voodoo where you stole something spirit, cuz you
know how you have, when you're on a show, different writers just like knock it out. They just
relate to different characters and they, they love writing them.
Every time you guys were write Cogdell, I was like, gimme more. It's so
Jed: Yeah.
Andy: he was great. I mean, we got to, you know, we talked to him a lot. Like that was part of
that process was getting to actually speak with him and he's such a like warm and also just
unique and specific human being, you know, like old school Texas lawyer that he also we're just
like, wow, this is fantastic.
We gotta use some of this.
Lauren: Thank you for that unbelievable introduction, um, that it was so nice of you. We feel the
same way about you guys. What an unbelievable experience it was for us, um, working with the
other most wonderful, nicest people on the, on the planet. So, um, I'm, I'm just so glad it worked
out.
Jed: Yeah, it was great. And it was just one of those seamless things like the show just
happened, you know, and, uh, like you guys just made it so smooth and so easy. so this week
we'd love to talk about how to get yourself into a writer's room. I, I know for myself, like I, you
know, went to film school and then I moved to Los Angeles and I basically, banged my head
against every wall I could find in Los Angeles for like 10 years.
Just trying to figure out do I do this, do I do that? And I just didn't really have people to ask who
knew anything, you know what I mean? Like, the people I knew were all kind of on the outside of
it and didn't have like, and I followed every advice, you know, I like any stranger, you know, who
knew anything, I would do anything.
Stacy: John
snuck up on Philip Seymour Hoffman in a coffee shop in the village once. You're like, Mr.
Hoffman,
Jed: did.
Stacy: didn't you approach Philip Seymour Hoffman with a script?

Jed: Well, he, was my dream idea for this role, and I was literally working on this script there in
a coffee shop, and he sat down next to me. I was like, it's a sign,
Andy: it's fate.
Jed: it was like one, of those, just like series of humiliating moments.
he was very nice and very, you know, he is like, oh, just send it to my agents. He, was nice
about it, but it was oh, I look like an idiot. And everyone in the coffee shop just saw me do that
and fail, you know? And here I am with the script still in my hand and, it was like one of those
shameful, but, you know, you try everything and, uh, and this is, you know, For Drew, and I like a
big kind of hole in our knowledge is we tried everything and then we sort of came into writer's
rooms through like a side door.
We came from the, you know, movie adapting to television. And so we figured, like we know you
guys know more, a lot more about writer's rooms, about like how things should actually be done
properly, um, than we do. Um,
Stacy: And, and you've helped a lot of people break in. You know what I mean? You're such
mentors. You've done it yourselves. You each have your own interesting stories of how you got
in, but then you've helped a bunch of people, so, so you know, a whole big bunch.
Andy: Yeah, well, we try, we try. Uh, it's funny, you know, you were like, oh, we came in the side
door and I feel like, I'm not really sure there's a front door, like I feel like it's sort of a wall. You
have to pull vault over and there's a bunch of different ways to do it. there's certainly like a more,
I do think there's things you can do to like give yourself a better chance at it.
Um, and I
Lauren: a. Just to interject, Andy and I always talk about it with young writers as like, um,
winning the lotto and you have to just buy a lot of tickets. Um, and so like he's saying, you have
to just keep trying lots of different avenues cuz hopefully one of them will pay off. Uh, sometimes
people will come out and say like, well, I don't wanna be an assistant, I'm an artist.
I'm just gonna make my stuff and it'll eventually get made. And hopefully that's true. But if you
are really trying to get into the industry, you have to play all, like, I think you need to play all of
the odds, right? You gotta, you gotta buy that ticket to like, everything, um, to be able to get
Andy: And this is, and like all of our advice too is, is like for writing specifically, I would say too,
like, you know, and I, I do think for what it's worth, one of the most important things you wanna
decide before you do anything is what exactly it is you want to do and how much you actually
wanna. Do it because it's gonna be hard under any, any, any version of this.
You know, it's gonna take a lot of time and effort and energy usually, and commitment to it. but
from our perspective, like obviously what, we'll, what we'll our advice and our, our experience is,
is like the writing track. So, that's, that's what we can speak to.
Lauren: yeah, there's, I mean, just to jump into practicals, just cuz I like practical advice, I was
the same way as you John, just like asking everyone, when I was an assistant once, I went up
to a very well-known producer on set who, uh, uh, was a woman. And I hadn't seen a lot of like
female, women in really positions of power.
And I remember I went up to her as a pa, I cannot believe I did this. And I was like, How do you
do this all, you have a family, right? Like, I was like, how do, how are you like having this
position? And like, it was the most awkward, horrible conversation for me as well. But I was just
like, give me your advice.

Tell me all of your tips. So I, I get that. Um, need but to jump into practicals, like, um, trying to
get. An assistant job is probably like the fastest way into a writer's room, right? Like you are
trying to get anything. Like you start usually as a writer's pa, which is someone that go for
people that aren't familiar with it.
It's just someone that as, There is an entry level position that helps you like, uh, with very the
basics of the office. And they usually get lunches and they help get supplies and um, sort of
basic entry level. And then you try to work your way up from there to writer's assistant. There's
also a position called script coordinator that deals with the scripts, but normally you wanna try to
like get yourself into that writer's assistant position or the showrunner's assistant position.
Those are like the two places that you can really springboard from.
Andy: I look at it like there's basically two parts to getting a job as a writer. The first is like being
a good writer and having good material. And, you know, there's, there's not, there's things to be
said about how to do that, like joining writers groups, reading as much as you can, writing as
much as you can.
Those, those things, I'm sure other people cover in a lot of. So assuming you've done that and
you have material you believe in and it's good. The other part of it is just access, right? Because
with the exception of like, The way you guys came in, which is a little bit different in terms of you
built your career up on sort of the other side of the ledger and then had this idea, and you came
in, you sort of came in at the top.
But assuming you're not gonna come in at the top, then the way you're gonna get a job is from a
writer. That's who hires writers. Full stop is other writers, right? So the biggest part is just
access. Like that's what you're looking for is access and how do you get access to writers? And
there's a lot of different ways to do that.
But Lauren's right, like there's concentric circles of access and the closest. Level is going to be
show owner's, assistant writer's, assistant in terms of being able to make that jump. Um, but
there are other levels, other concentric circles before that that'll, that'll get you there too. And like
I agree wholeheartedly with Lauren that. are certainly people that just write something and, and
it manages to win a fellowship or get them somewhere and, and they just don't have to take
those steps. But to the degree that it is a lottery, like you want to give yourself more chances
and working your way up to that job, it's not just about, it's not just about getting a writer's
assistant job so you can get promoted on that show.
It's like you're gonna meet a lot of writers over the course of doing that job that are gonna be
able to help you in a lot of different ways because, Ultimately, like I feel like for me when I came
here, there's this sort of. Not fallacy, but you have this idea that you're gonna make connections
and those connections are instantly going to help you do something.
And like the way it really works is you usually make connections close to your own level, and
then you sort of rise up together, right? Like the connections that you make now, usually it's like
in five years are gonna bear fruit, not in five minutes, you know? And so putting yourself in a
position where you're meeting lots of people is just giving yourself more opportunity to have
connections and access.
Stacy: I love how actionable you guys are being. I too, like practical, actionable stuff. Um, I love
that you just listed all the, you know, showrunners, assistant writers, assistant script coordinator,
uh, writer's, pa I think there might have been another one.
And it sounds like what you're saying is you sort of get those jobs through word of mouth
connections. You just know a writer who's maybe a staff writer or an entry level person, but
What if you don't know people? What if you like? Are there other ways, like a LinkedIn or WGA
website? Do you have to be WGA to access These are these delicious little jobs listed

somewhere.
Lauren: No, you wi I
Andy: not.
Lauren: when, when,
Stacy: There you
Lauren: and I'll give you my example. When I started, I, um, I would cold call. Places. Um, and I
don't know if it still works this way, but I, I would bet someone could get in the door the way I did,
which was I would read deadline and it would say, um, like what shows were being announced.
And, um, and then I would call the studio that that show, uh, was being made by.
And, uh, I would ask to be connected to the production office. And, and usually they do, they
would just connect you. And once I got into the production office, I was like, hi, are, are you
hiring, um, PAs or writer's assistants? And it used to be like, uh, no, not yet. Usually get a like,
not yet, not yet. It's way too early.
Um, call back later. And then I would just keep calling back like every couple of days. And then
sometimes you would call and they'd be like, oh, no, position's been filled. And you're like, but
when, but I did that, I would keep a list, like a, like an Excel spreadsheet list of like, Who, like
what places I was calling, who I spoke with when they said to call back and if I had submitted
myself.
And then I just did that and it was like a numbers game. I kept, kept, kept doing it until uh, I
would get an interview and then that's how I got my foot in the door.
Stacy: is
Andy: think that works. Parti, yeah,
Drew: It is so impressive. It
Andy: well with, um, that's really good for network shows that still exist. I think the, the.
Announcements are still a lot more timely with those than they are oftentimes with like streaming
shows nowadays. And I, I was gonna say too, that Lauren actually, she actually, you actually
secured a writer's assistant that job that way.
I'm, they think, which is wild and very unlikely. But I do think that even beyond that, like writer's
pa like that kind of job is, is that's a way to do it. But to, to your point, Stacy, like, Almost
everybody has some kind of connection, however loose when they come here. Your, uh,
cousin's uncle works as a gaffer on, you know what I mean?
Like find whatever you can to try and connect to, uh, in, in the town to just get, to get something.
Um, and, and to Lauren's point, like, you know, these concentric circles, like writer's, assistant
show's, assistant, those are often referrals. Like very, very often. Those are referrals in some
way. So it's pretty hard to get that out of the gate, but, PA jobs, like those jobs are a lot easier to
get right and, and keeping track of, of what's going in that sense and just trying to get yourself
into that world.
Get your foot in the door so you can start meeting other people. The second you get on a set,
there's gonna be a writer a lot of times on set when they're shooting, and you can make that
approach at some point, or you can talk to like the script coordinator or whoever is interesting, or
the script supervisor, whoever's there that you can sort of make a connection to and sort of start

the ball rolling for yourself and build up the the Rolodex.
Drew: That's great.
Lauren: may, there may be actually more outreach now than there was. Back when we were
breaking in. I, I know there's been this tremendous movement, um, by assistance, um, and
especially with Guild Outreach to assistance. Um, and, uh, like Liz Alper, I know has, who's a, a
board member for writers. Um, wga, uh, west has really done a tremendous job in, extending a
hand to assistance.
And so it might be worth even checking with the guild to see if there is a list, um, that you can
get yourself on for writer's assistance.
Stacy: You could
Andy: And a lot of people too. Yeah,
Lauren: Yeah. You, you could probably Google it. You could probably Google it or, yeah. Call
and, and ask. Yeah.
Drew: I'd be curious what your advice would be. Like you're saying once you're the writer's
assistant in a writer's room, you're, you're on the springboard at that point. You're your, you
know, elevation to staff writer is, you know, probably going to happen if you, you know, do a
good job and you get along with your showrunners and the other writers in the room, you're kind
of right on the edge.
Like, what advice would you get? Give to someone who's, um, a writer's room pa, who's, you
know, The person getting lunches and getting office supplies and like someone who's not really
sitting around the table and having these conversations about breaking the show. And, you
know, these creative conversations like that person is around, there is access, but you're a little
on the outside of it.
And, uh, but a lot of people come up, you know, from a writer's pa to writer's assistant. And I
think that's a really, uh, important pathway. And like, uh, for a person that gets that job, what,
what would your advice be as far as, you know, how they plant seeds to elevate themselves to
the writer's assistant?
Andy: I would say be brave. I I, I think that there's always enough. Element of like, I, I don't think
you should try to overstep your bounds. I don't think you should walk up on the first day to the
showrunner and say, you wanna be a writer and can I have a job? Obviously, I'm not trying to
say that, but I do think that the people that we've interacted, that we've oftentimes ended up
having some sort of mentor relationship are people that are.
Have some ambition to, to it and put themselves in front of you, you know, and I think there's
value in that. And so I would say make it known that you wanna be a writer and, and have
material ready if anyone's willing to read you. And, you know, you wanna build those
relationships in a careful way, in an authentic way.
You don't wanna use people, but I, but don't, don't wait to like, for someone to ask you, you
know, don't wait for there to be that spot. Like you want someone to know you want the spot
when it opens. You don't want to be asking for it. Once it does, you know.
Jed: great.
Stacy: with an introduction too. I know, I know you're the ones being interviewed, but I think it's
funny and surprising how few people say you're on a set. How few people come up. Say, Hey, I
hear you're the writer. I hear you. That extend their hands, say what their name is and what

they're doing that day.
Like say if they're a hundred people playing, uh, small parts in the thing, you might have two
actors that come up and just say, Hey, I'm so-and-so. I'm playing the role of so-and-so. I love the
scripts, and I just wanted to say hello. And just that. And of course you don't wanna be the leech
who's like, so I just wanna hang, uh, beside you and talk your ear off and annoy you.
And you know, like, not that, but just that little bit of an introduction. Literally like, uh, I'm
surprised how many people I work with that I never, actually meet.
Drew: yeah,
Jed: Yeah,
Drew: yeah. I would say another thing for a PA too that I, in our experience too, that I found
really. Um, impressive and helpful and, and, uh, and smart in terms of career advancement is
like the, the, the writer's room pa usually is within earshot of what's happening in the room. And,
um, you know, and, uh, I think when you're listening to a season being broken, like whether
you're it's a true story or if it's, you know, pure fiction, there's always like a healthy amount of
research that needs to be done.
If someone's, you know, Trying to invent a character that does a certain job, like we need to
know more about that job. And if you're listening and you just take it upon yourself to do some of
that research and then present and say, Hey, I've, you know, found this character that's kind of
like the one you're inventing.
You know, here's his, you know, personal story or whatever that may be. I think those kind of
things I found, um, You know, when people kind of proactively find great details like that and
just, you know, slap 'em on your desk, that's always welcome. It's always, um, you know, kind of
an impressive thing cuz it hasn't been specifically asked of the person.
And uh, I think that's also a way to kind of leave an impression.
Jed: one thing I love about what you're saying too is like that the idea of like, Like showrunners
and writers, like you notice when the PA is just watching like TikTok videos in their office, all like,
and you notice when they're not doing that and when they're like hungry and they're like, and I,
you know, coming up or you know, still we're like, always be selling.
Always, always be presenting your best face. Don't deliver a draft that's half-assed because
you're like, oh, this is, this one doesn't matter. It's only episode four and it's only the first draft.
Like, like, Show up with every, you know, like how you do anything is how you're gonna do
everything. And there's a difference between the, the PA who's like, I have hay fever, I can't
come in.
And the pa who's like, you know what I mean? Like, uh, who's, who's like, yeah, can, can I. Can
I do some research on possible backgrounds for this character's backstory and present 'em to
you tomorrow just for my own education? You know, like, you know, because as a show runner,
you just have a million problems and you're constantly looking for who's, who can I lean on?
Uh, because the job is too big and you know, there's too much to do. Who can I lean on? Who's
gonna be, um, that person? And, and even as a pa, you can. Be that you, you can show that
you are capable of being that person,
Stacy: back when it was physical rooms lately, I've just been in zoom rooms, so this wouldn't
work for a Zoom room. But back when it was physical rooms, I was quite surprised how at the
end of the day people would just clear out like pew.

Like it was like, okay guys, I think we're wrapping it up and pew, everybody's gone. And I feel
like there's, again, you don't wanna be a hanger on who's making everyone uncomfortable with
your mouth breathing, hang around, but. On the other end when the room clears, if you're willing
to sort of hang out till the end, I think there are opportunities, even if you're lower on the totem
pole to go, Hey, I overheard that you guys were talking about this.
Um, would you mind if I, uh, uh, try to bring in some research based on that, or, or even throw
out an idea, even like a little pitch. Nothing crazy, but. You know, hey, I read a story in the news
that reminded me blah, blah, blah. Like, that's sort of your chance to connect, to pitch, to show
that you're hungry. You know what I mean?
Like, everybody leaves and if you care and you show up and, and they care that a couple of
people stay who really care, often the showrunner. And if you show that you care and are willing
to stay a, a few extra minutes, like, I don't know, do you guys agree or are you like, my God, no,
everybody's gonna say,
Lauren: No, a hun. A hundred percent. I, I, I would say too, I mean, that's how I got. My start
with, like, I started, uh, working for David Kelly and I was a, um, pa and his shows are very
research based. I mean, I was working on Boston Legal and it's just like a, you know, lot, uh, like
a case after case, uh, every week. And that's exactly how I got my start.
Drew, I was gonna say the same thing, which is that, um, I just did some research for them. I
typed it up. I didn't even, like, it wasn't even a big presentation I gave, I just had done it and
then, Gave it over to the writer and, and then they liked that research and then they moved me
over into a more writer's assistant position, and then I was able to kind of rise from there.
I will also add too, As an PA or at any kind of entry level, you don't have to focus only your
attention on this showrunner. I think you need to be smart and look to see who kind of sees
themselves as a mentor, as writers. Um, we, Andy and I owe our career to other writers. In
writer's rooms who just, uh, were approachable and, and helpful.
And at some point they offered to read our material and we gave it to one and then another was
like, oh, I wanna read it. And it, and it sort of spread through them. And then collectively they
sort of boosted our career. Um, we. You know, cuz a showrunner often has like a ton of
responsibilities and they can't also be launching your career at the same time.
And so sometimes you can kind of work with the other writers and get to know them and that
can launch you.
Andy: And oftentimes you're gonna have a lot more in common with the lower level writers, an
assistant, right? You're gonna be closer in age, closer in experience. Like it can be easier to
build that connection in a more authentic way. But I was gonna say, you guys brought up so
many great points. Um, You know, in terms of like what you're trying to do in any situation where
you have access to other writers is like showcase your, like your ambition, your professionalism,
and kind of like your, uh, abilities and any way you can do that.
Like, uh, you know, if you're gonna get the lunches, get 'em perfectly, if you're gonna like, all of
that I think is, it matters because ultimately, like when you think about hiring somebody
eventually on a staff, what you want is, you know, someone that's gonna be like, Uh, in, that's
gonna put their, their whole, their whole self into it.
And if they're not putting their whole self into something else, it's hard to make that jump in your
mind that they're gonna do it for, for your project. Um, I also just wanted to say off something
you guys said. Like a little story that comes from our first experience writing a script, uh, and
how that also I think is relevant, which is the first thing we ever wrote that got on the screen was
a freelance episode of a show called Elementary, which was on C vs for many years.

It's like Johnny Lee Miller, Lucy Lou. And uh, the way in which that happened is Lauren was the
writer's assistant for that show. And the showrunner is a guy named Rob Doherty, who's a
wonderful guy. And Lauren was very at this, she had had several writers since I think. Smartly
had learned the lesson of like sitting, you know, waiting for anything is not a good idea.
And was very forthright with him in terms of like, what I want is to be a writer on this show and
how do I, how do I get there? And you know, basically kept Adam and he was like, well, you
know, I. You guys could always pitch ideas if you wanna pitch ideas to me. And so Lauren and I
would literally send him three ideas every week.
We're like, here's more ideas, here's more ideas, here's more ideas, here's more ideas. And,
and eventually I think he was like, fuck, fine. You guys can write an episode. You know? Uh,
and, and so that, that was effective. But it speaks to something too, which is like showrunners in
particular, but, but many writers too, they don't have a lot of time and.
So you need to put yourself in front of them. Like I tell this to y to people breaking in even before
you get to be an assistant. When you move to LA and you're trying to make connections, like I'm
like, pester me. Like don't feel like you email me once and then we don't set up that lunch and
then that's it.
I'm like, you gotta stay on people because I. It's not coming from a place of malevolence or
annoyance or anything like that. It's, it's purely the fact that like, we're all super busy and I'm
sure you guys too, like there's a lot of people out there who are trying to break in that are
oftentimes trying to take your time.
So the people that like are able to stay at it and actually like arrange it are the ones that actually
get themselves in front of you. So I just, I'm a big proponent of, um, of putting yourself out there.
Lauren: Yeah, I'll, I'll add. I'll add too on that story is that, um, the way we did it too, cuz we, it's
not like I got in front of his face and was pitching him every week, cuz I think I would probably be
fired for that. But, um, I, he had written up, we would write, write up like a one page sheet and
then I would just slip it into his inbox.
Like every Friday. Like every Friday, every Friday, every Friday. And then, yes, I think at some
point he was like, fine. Like fine, I'm gonna feel like an asshole. Give these guys a shot. So,
yeah.
Jed: Well, that, that kind of sticktuitiveness, like, you know, that's, that's someone who's gonna
be around in 20 years, you know what I mean? You're like, oh, this is the, these are real, these
are people who are willing to face rejection. Over and over and keep showing up. You, you know
what I mean? Because that's the job.
Like, that's the job. Like, and, and I gotta say two thi, like one thing I love too is the idea of
saying what can we do to position ourselves to be like, you know, like I feel like often people's
kind of skip that step and like, will you make me a writer? And it, it kind of puts the onus on the
person to try and figure out how to do that as opposed to like, what could I do to position
myself?
And, and the idea, you know, you guys had a script ready to go. So that when, that, like, I know
in my own experience I've been like, Hey, I'll read something if you have something. And, but
they don't have a script they're willing to share or ready to share. Like to have that thing ready to
drop, even if it's not perfect, even if your best foot forward, but it's polished to a point that you
think it's, you know, ready to be seen.
To have that ready to go, like those things I, I think are really invaluable.

Drew: Yeah,
Lauren: I also think it's important, like Andy and I were talking about this, that first script that you
sh um, have and show to people. we encourage people to take chances for it to be daring, for it
to be like we had a, a Showrun, our friend of ours say when he was like reading to staff his show
and he was reading a bunch of, um, people's original material, if it was something that he felt
like a thousand other people had sort of done this story as a very trod story, but well told, he was
like, that's not his.
Interesting to me. He said, because you can write about anything in the world. This is your
material. This is what you wanna put out there, this is what you wanna say. And. Like, I'm
interested to know what you wanna say, and if you're just saying something that's been like, kind
of like recycled a million times, like I don't know if I need that voice in my room.
So, especially in these beginning stages, like take a swing at something and, and like, you
know, make an impact. Have something to, to, to write about and have something to say.
Andy: yeah, just to piggyback on that, like this is sort of, you know, like, like Lauren said, we're
very much into the nuts and bolts and sort of the like, utilitarian side of how to do this. Um, every
person that comes here, even you need to establish your own narrative, When you get in a
room, when you're meeting with somebody, when you're like, ultimately when you think about
hiring somebody for anything, but certainly as it gets towards closer to being a writer, like they
wanna know what they're gonna offer, obviously.
And, and, and I wanna just preface this by saying I understand, we all understand as writers,
like our, in our minds we're like, we can write a lot of different things, right? And we wanna write
a lot of different types of things. And that I understand that. So this isn't coming from a place of
me not understanding that.
But I also think that.
Drew: that
Andy: We have made the mistake earlier in our career of trying to hit every base when we think
about what we can write and what we are as writers, and that just ends up being nothing to the
person that's listening in a lot of ways. Uh, so you wanna think about when you craft your
sample and also who you are.
You want those things to have like a synergy. You wanna write a sample that is weird and
different, but that also speaks to something about your own experience and who you are. Big
proponent of that. And I I, I will say again, as a caveat, I think a little of this is bullshit. Right. I
think that the people sitting on the other side of the table that are executives that are reps a lot
of the time, like buy into this idea of authenticity that I don't always subscribe to cuz I, I think that
we are people that have imaginations and are, and part of the beauty of writing is be able to
jump around into different perspectives.
However, I do think that there is a hundred percent, especially now there's this huge. Onus on
authenticity, on your story. And so leaning into that I think is smart when you think about how
you wanna craft your sample and how you wanna talk about yourself a little bit, right? When
somebody's asking about you, whether it's at, at the lunch truck, it could get on a set, or if you're
in a meeting, general meeting with a rep or executive, like you wanna think about talking about
yourself in the context of who you are as a writer and something that's gonna make you stand
out and interesting.
What is the thing about you that makes people want it? Hear something from you, you know?
And I think your sample ideally should also reflect that.

Drew: That's a really,
Jed: Sorry, dear.
Drew: yeah, I was gonna say that's a really important point and like both of you guys are making
in, in the idea of like, I can't tell you how many times John and I have had conversations about
hiring somebody and said, oh my God, you never believe how, you know, where this person
grew up and the circumstances and like, you know, and like all of these things that you can
gather from a sample, from a writing sample that kind of alludes to.
interesting life experiences that are, um, I think so important. I think, you know, the, the, the, like
you said, Lauren, the, the script, the sample doesn't need to be so polished and so like, shoot
ready, it needs to like, I don't know, elicit more. I. Interesting life experiences, taking swings, you
know, like we hire people, I think everyone hires people into the room for big ideas and, and you
know, that creative energy versus it being like a perfectly polished, you know, finished product.
And I think that's, uh, um, really interesting. And, and to circle back to your point about, you
know, the mentorship, I think this is such a mentorship business and, uh, the, the inner team,
Entertainment industry writ large is very mentorship based. And I think, uh, you know, one thing
John and I realized in the feature side of things early is like, let's find those mentors men, you
know, and how do you find a mentor?
You might ask yourself like, where do I look for one? Or, who wants to mentor me? And I think
one thing we realized is, oh, people want to mentor, you know, younger talent. Like, I think it's a
human, you know, condition to want to mentor people. And I think, you know, to use that and to,
to know that when you.
Reach out to somebody that they may not respond to your first email. And you mentioned it, you
really have to stick to it. I know for me, you know, if someone's reaching out to me that's, uh, you
know, wanting a, you know, entry level kind of job, and I don't respond to the first one, and then
they email me back, I never, ever, ever think of that as pestering.
I a hundred percent of the time think I'm such an asshole. I forgot to respond to this email,
Andy: totally, totally.
Drew: always, you know, I, I internalized that as my fault. Like, I, I'm such a, such a jerk.
Andy: but they, they, they think they're pestering you sometimes, you know?
Drew: totally. But you should put that, and I'm that kind of person who is like very, like, cautious
of pestering anyone, or, you know, if they didn't respond to me, they must think, you know, I
suck.
You know, and that's never the case. That's, it's always that people are busy and they're just, uh,
they just didn't get to it. And, and to, you know, continue to put yourself out there.
Stacy: Drew, I'd like to piggyback on that if you don't mind, because I do wanna say, I would say
that advice is fantastic for 99% of the listeners. There is that 1%. I'm sure you guys have all
experienced. People who, this is the classic thing. We'll call you stoned. Do you know what I
mean? Like there was somebody, I was doing Walla, I was an actor and I was doing Walla with
somebody and they were like, oh, your husband's a writer.
I, you know, I wanna be a writer. I'm gonna call and pick his brain. So this fella called me and
John, you weren't available, you were gone. But he and I just started yak Andy Yack and we
talked for like half an hour. It was all over the place. And he was like, At the end, he was like,

well, it's probably good that your husband couldn't talk cause I'm fucking so stoned right now.
I wouldn't remember any of it. I would put that in, you know, in the what not to do. Now, like I
said, for 99% of the listeners, this will seem obvious, but there is that 1% that's like, oh, that's a
good point. That's a good point. I should now call stoned. Or if you are. Or some people will, um,
they'll turn in material that's not ready or, here's a good example of how I, in my life, how to do it.
So we hired a babysitter who was also a writer, a very talented young writer named Mark
Brockwell. He's currently working as a showrunner's assistant. He just casually mentioned to me
while he was still our babysitter, a project he was working on. I said, that sounds really cool. I'd
love to read it. He waited a full like six months, nine months, and then emailed and said, Hey,
remember that conversation we had?
Well, it's all polished to perfection and ready to go. And when I read it, it really was, it was
polished and tight, and it had momentum. It's like he was proactive enough to pitch it. He was
proactive enough to remember that I'd offered to read it, but he was also disciplined enough to
wait the six months or whatever until it was in good shape.
Do you know what I mean? So I think that's, I think there's a fine line. Yes, you should be
proactive. Put yourself in front of people, um, ask for mentorship, introduce yourself, do all those
things. But you also should be, Discipline about it and respectful of the other person's time.
Lauren: it. That's a really good point, Stacy. Like we tell people too, most people will. Read
something of yours once you get usually one shot. So you wanna make sure before you send
that script that that is what you wanna lead with.
Stacy: That, that one shot, by the way, it's gonna be five pages long, you know what I mean?
The one shot will be, if it's a good five pages, they're gonna read the whole thing. That's what I
do. But if it's allow, if you can't make your first five pages good, then dear God, what? You
know?
Lauren: Yeah.
Drew: I was gonna say the same thing. Make that first five pages really, uh, stand out cuz it it's
an unfortunate reality when you're, you know, have a hundred scripts in front of you to read
samples for people to potentially hire a lot of those scripts. You're gonna read five to 10 pages
and, and move on and, uh, uh, but the ones that you're engaged in those first five, then you'll
plow through.
And, um, and, uh, but that, that's the intro is really, really important.
Andy: the last time we staffed a show last year, you know, we probably read a hundred and
something scripts at least. And the thing that I came away with from it was a couple things. Like
one, it's like most of them are pretty good.
Like there's a ton of B pluses out there, a ton. And I'm talking about working writers by the way,
right? At this point, like the scripts are good, you know? Now there are very few that are
fantastic. Like there's very, very few that are a's. And so when you think about writing and
breaking through the clutter, you know, and actually getting someone to want to mentor you and
champion you, you're a hundred percent right that that needs to be great.
And I think it speaks to also another sort of tangential point, which is, when you start writing, like
you need to find a community of people who are gonna read your writing and help you make
your writing better. There's also a community you need to build on that. I mean, there's the
David Kelly's out there who are like in law school and write a script and everyone's like, oh,
you're a genius.

Get out here. But mostly people need time to get better at the craft. And, and so I think another
thing that we find, I'm sure you guys have found too, is like someone just moved out here. At a
college, they're 23 years old and they have a script. It's the first script they've ever written, and
they hand it to you.
And it's terrible because, not because they're bad writers necessarily, but because they deserve
their script, you know? And so people that can read and help you make stuff better along the
way also, I think is a huge part because you know it's gonna take time for your, to put yourself in
the position, to give it to somebody that's gonna really be able to help you and use that time to
make yourself a better writer.
Jed: Well, I would say too, just as a, like, one thing I, I'm always wary of when someone's like,
will you read my script? Often what they want is me to read their script and be like, this is
brilliant. I'm sending it to Brad Pitt and caa. You know what I mean? Like I have a financier who
would be perfect for like, that's really, you know, what they want.
And short of that, like they get angry and I'm like, oh, people aren't asking me for notes most of
the time. Where as a writer, like. That's when I give a, another writer a script, I'm like, Hey, will
you give me notes so I can make this better? Because that's always, you know, that's the end
goal is to craft it into something that sparkles.
And I feel like it's impossible to, you know, we all have blind spots. We all have things we don't
see or, you know, things that, you know, we're trying to communicate that aren't getting across
like everyone and, and. I think people become better writers as they have better people around
them, giving them better notes.
And I, you know, I would say like, you know, if a writer said like, Hey, will you read my script and
give me notes so I can make this really good? hear like professional writer in that, you know
what I mean? I'm much more. Willing to do that versus like, read a script that I know if I have
any notes is just gonna make the person angry at me.
Which, you know, I've, I've kind of essentially stopped and I've been like, okay. I, I don't read
scripts anymore cuz it's just, everyone's angry at me and I'm like, spending all this time and it's
just,
Stacy: When John takes meetings with people, that's his, his rule is no homework. So he'll let
you know. It's like it's his mom's dentist's brother's cousin who's moving to LA and wants to be
writers. Like, yes, I will have coffee with you. No homework. You can't, you know,
Jed: can't give me a homework. And, and, and there's exception, like, I gotta say, there was a,
a, a guy. There, there was a guy, uh, um, a British film student reached out to me on Facebook
who was like, I'll be in L uh, I'm coming to la. I would really, I'm trying to meet filmmakers. I love
your work. Like, could I just buy you lunch?
And, and I was like, wow, that's really gutsy, and why not? And I showed up. And the guy spent
the whole lunch talking about how he's, uh, talked all these filmmakers into having lunches and
so he can get selfies to, you know, show off to his, uh, film school friends. I was like, shit, why'd I
do this? Like, this is such a waste of time.
You know what I mean? Like, I was like, okay,
Andy: You're like, I'll have the lobster,
Stacy: Yeah.
Andy: Uh,

Jed: But there's things like, like there was an opportunity there that I feel like he could have, uh,
just. Instead of talking, like asking like, I know for me, you know, I wanted to be a professional
writer. I was banging my head against the wall. Uh, Stacy's brother Steve Shabos is a, you
know, professional writer.
And one night I was like, I've tried everything I can think of. Like, I don't know what else to do.
Like how did you do? Just talk me through how you did this. And he had this like, oh, nobody's
ever asked me that. Thank you. And he's like, first I listened to like all Tony Robbins, you know,
tapes. And then I like, and he talked me through this process that I went through and, and it
worked.
You know what I mean? It, I mean it. Like it, it helped me get outta my own, you know, comfort
zone and challenge myself to, I don't know, try things that scared me and, and give people
scripts and be vulnerable and talk about, you know, myself and, you know what I mean? Not in
a, like, I'm gonna be a great filmmaker, but more like I'm scared and I'm trying to do this thing.
Like, can you help me? Um, which I feel like goes a lot further.
Stacy: before Andy, you went into a thing about, you know, what makes you specific and
authentic. And I think most people understood what you meant, but I just wanna jump on that of
saying It, it's the things that make you a little weird or a little different or a little vulnerable.
That's what you're talking about, the good stuff, not just like I was raised in Boston, NA Asha. I
do love baseball,
Andy: no, no,
Stacy: like, it's not that everyone, you, you would think I, I could see a young writer.
Andy: pretty close to me, but yeah,
Stacy: I could see a young writer soon, too
Andy: you were describing me a little bit, but yeah.
Stacy: But I could see, I could see someone listening to this if they were young, if they were
insecure, if they had imposter syndrome, and they're like, everybody went to Harvard and I
didn't, you know, being like, say you have a parent that's in prison. Say you grew up in a trailer
park.
Say you have some sort of really interesting, weird way you grew up, or there's just something
about, or the opposite, you maybe. You spent the first 18 years of your life, uh, studying to be a
professional gymnast and you didn't live with your family. Like it's all of that stuff, right? I think
that's what you were talking about.
Now, I could see somebody who has imposter syndrome and is young and insecure, keeping
those things to themself. Like, ooh, nobody needs to know that, you know, that. All I really know,
I can't actually spell. I can only figure skate. But those things are actually. Helpful. Right. And if
you can diffuse that into your script and it just makes you interesting.
Anyway, I just wanted to circle back to that. I know we've moved on,
Andy: hundred percent. No, I was gonna say too off what, uh, what, what John had said too that
I thought was really interesting is like, I a hundred percent agree with everything you said. I
would bet, like if, if you, if I was coming to LA as your dentists, sisters, whatever, and I was like,
have coffee with me.

And we had coffee and it was great. And then nine to 12 months later I was like, Hey, I got a
new job and I'm doing this new thing. And I was wondering if I could just pick your brain about
something and then 12 months after that you're like, Hey, you know, um, I'm actually in between
jobs right now. I was wondering if we could go a hike and catch up.
Right. And then if they're like, Hey, will you read something? You'd be like, yeah, I will. Right?
Like it's, I, it's like you gotta play the long game. You gotta aggressively play the long game.
That's what I would
Drew: That's so smart. The long game on many different levels, as many people, you're playing
the long game with the better and that, that's such smart advice and it isn't like, you know, John,
you were saying that, that it's something we run into so often of like, I've got the script. Will you
read it and you realize quickly that yeah, the only interest is if you can flip a switch and make
this script, um, You know, put it in production overnight, then, you know, I'm interested in
continuing this conversation.
If not, you know, um, then I'm, you know, it's almost like they're wasting their time with you and
that, that, that obviously is not a good strategy, but what you're
Andy: And how many times. I'm sure it's the same for you guys. Like most of the, when a, like,
let's say a connection pays off, what it usually is is they reach out three years later and they're
like, oh, this project just came up. That seems like it would be good for you guys. Or this ju, you
know what I mean? Like, it's never like, what do you have for me now?
It's, it's never that. It's
Drew: I know.
Andy: like later, you
Drew: It's funny, I'm just making a note to call someone. Uh, the son of someone I used to work
with in New York 20 years ago is a film student, and we talked a couple times, you know, and
he's, you know, an undergrad and he's just, we talk every six months and he's gonna graduate
in another year or so, but he's definitely playing longer.
And I just made a note to like, Hey, give that kid a call. Uh, see what he's up to. And like, you
know, I'm already like prepped for him to kind of enter the business in, uh, another year
whenever he graduates, uh, because he's, Played it. So, I mean, he's doing all these things,
asking for advice and is it feature or TV that I should be looking at?
And all the things that, you know, it's fun for us to talk about and, uh, um, and not just, you know,
dumping, you know, a thousand pages of material in my inbox to read. You know, it's kind of,
um, but yeah, but I'm actually motivated myself to reach out to him and, and catch up versus the
other way around.
Jed: Yeah. Yeah. There's no quick path. There's no quick path. Like, and I, I, I like, you know
what you're saying, like that. Yeah. Playing the line, like Drew and I, that's been our mantra
since early days. Like, you know, let's play the long, we're playing the long game. We're not,
we're not going for the like, Really bad horror movie that we're gonna be embarrassed of two
years from now.
We're, we're, you know, we can slower all this, like, we don't have to like, worry about, don't
worry about today, like, plan for like 10 years from now. Where, where do you want, like, And
God, it took Drew and I, I think 12 years to start making a living, doing this like we were hustling
for a long time and it was a much longer, long game than I would've, uh, you know, chosen

Drew: Extra long game.
Andy: yeah. You were hoping, you were hoping, you were hoping for a par three.
Drew: that'd be our biopic. The longest. The longest. The longest game would be our what? Our
bio
Stacy: a good title,
Andy: we talked a lot about like, oh, it, the, the sort of holy grail is to make these connections
and work your way in concentric circles and trying to find a job inside a writer room. Awesome.
There are other avenues and I just wanted to, to just tag those really quickly in terms of other
things you should and could be doing at the same time.
one is there are many fellowships and, uh, other competitions as well that that can be a, like we,
we've been in so many writers' rooms and I think the room we're in right now, Two of the five or
six writers came out of fellowships. Like, it's a very, very common path. Uh, I won't go through
the entire comprehensive list, but a lot of the studios, uh, Warner Brothers, or Disney or hbo,
they have these fellowships where you apply with a script and if you get in, there's like a year's
worth of training.
And then they oftentimes try to place you inside of a writer's room with your first job. And those
are incredibly valuable, very competitive. Incredibly challenging to get, but also like a very
worthwhile avenue for putting your material forward.
Lauren: If your listeners wanna know what those are, if you go to W G A foundation and you
just, uh, look up fellowship programs for screenwriters, it has a full list for you to,
Stacy: That is so awesome.
Drew: that's such excellent advice. That's really great. And, uh, I wanna bring up one more thing
before we get into rapid fire too. I just, uh, I feel like there's, one question I certainly get a ton is,
is the agent manager question for, you know, up and coming rider. Like, how do I get an agent?
How do I get a manager?
And I think there's some belief that that thing is gonna, you know, if I can just get a manager, it's
gonna change everything. And, uh, I'm not sure that's always true. It's certainly helpful, no
question. But, um, You know, I do know there's kind of that paradox, whether you're, you know,
it's true for actors, it's true for pretty much everyone.
Like, uh, it's very hard to get an agent or a manager when you're kind of up and coming and
then you have some, some amount of success and then suddenly all the agents and managers
come to you at the same time. And that's a, it's an unfortunate paradox cuz it's not, um, the most
helpful path. But I'd be curious, you know, um, What you guys think is a, an appropriate answer
when someone says, like, how do I go about finding a manager or agent or representation in
general?
Andy: I agree. It's not really a silver bullet. It's, which is a disappointing piece of information to
learn. I think. Um, I'll split it up. A little, I'll say, I'll start with agents. You know, it's important to
understand something that took us a long time to understand, which is the dynamic of the
relationship.
It's easy. It's easy to look at it from your own side and be like, I need this agent because they're
gonna help me get this. The way agents view things, for the most part, for the most part, there
are definitely exceptions to this, where a young agent finds a sample they love and they're like,
I'm gonna champion you and I'm gonna find a way to make this happen for you and for us

mostly.
They want, they, they look at you as an ATM in a little Right, to a certain degree. Right. They're
like, do you have something that is going to be sellable, stackable, whatever. Right. And, and
with the least amount of effort possible, because agents have. 150 clients, most of them, right?
They have a shitload of people that they're servicing.
And so, um, particularly in LA and this climate now, with the consolidation of a lot of the big
agencies in particular, you know, more than likely what's gonna happen is you are gonna get
work and then an agent's gonna be like, Hey man, what's going on? Not, I don't have a job. Find
me a job. Agent managers slightly different.
There's a huge plethora of options in that regard. Our experience, I mean, I've personally had.
Three different agencies and two or three different management companies over the course of
my career before I really broke. Most of those were ineffective. I, there's a lot of managers that
don't do anything and very few that do.
Uh, if you can find one that does a hundred percent, but again, I would never hang my career or
my future on the idea of finding representation. That's not to say it can't be something you're
doing along the way, but it is by no means the answer to how you're going to. Break in usually
with, with a few exceptions, it's, it's a lottery ticket.
That's not a great one.
Drew: yeah, that's great. And I think going back to earlier in the conversation, other writers are,
are, to me, the most valuable relationships you could make as an up and coming writer are
other writers. We have hired 100% of our writers' assistants in rooms have been the
recommendation of another writer in the room.
And a hundred percent of those writers' assistants have then become staff writers in our room.
So, I mean, I think in our experience that is, that is by far the most valuable direction.
Lauren: That's another good tip for assistants is like you wanna work on the show, you wanna
work for like you guys, right? Like if someone says, oh, why is this how writers assistant position
empty? Oh, it's because I promoted this person to writer You're like, that's the job I want. There's
a lot of people that don't promote and you wanna try to like wiggle your way into a place that
does promote.
And if you find your PLA yourself working for someone and you're like, oh, this is never gonna
work out, then you gotta kind of look around and see if you can jump to another, show, another,
showrunner.
Drew: Yeah.
Jed: Yeah. I had, I had a thought when you guys were talking about fellowships, I had a thought
of like, here's, here's another idea that, you know, if you're, you know, You know, trying to make
it in television and wanna get into a writer's room, take your favorite show and look at like I M D
B. Look at the list of writers who worked on that show.
Find them on social media. Reach out to each writer and ask if you could have coffee with them.
You'll come to them, you'll make it super easy. And just ask them how they, you know, made it
onto the show. And, Gush about their episode, tell them how much you, you know what I mean?
Like, I, I feel like there's, and just do that every day, you know, do like, there's social media that,
that wasn't around really when I was coming up because, you know, those 12 years were in like
the dark ages, you know, before, like when Drew and I, drew and I sold our first movie.

And we literally went out and bought iPhones, which had just come out and underwear because
we, ours were so full of holes and we were so poor for so long. Um, all right, well, let's jump into
the Rapid fire four. Rapid Fire four. So this week, uh, we'll ask Lauren the Rapid Fire four. And
next week, Andy.
No, we're recording it all the same week. Okay. Uh, so this is, uh, four questions we ask every
guest. Number one, what is the first television show you truly loved and why?
Lauren: Um, Seinfeld, even though I'm a, a drama writer, Seinfeld was truly the first show that I
loved. It was a show that my family watched altogether and we would normally have, um, uh,
dinner at the dinner table, but when Seinfeld was on, we got to eat in front of the tv and that was
glorious.
Stacy: that's so sweet.
Jed: beautiful. Stacy, you wanna ask a second?
Stacy: Ooh, I do. What is your favorite part of the job?
Lauren: Uh, my favorite part of the job is getting to work with other artists and, um, both in, with
other writers. I think it's so fun. You're just getting to play, make believe with other writers, but
also when you get into production and you get to work with artists in all different fields, uh, I find
that so exciting to see what they bring to the table and, um, and sort of getting to.
Uh, support each other's work is really, uh, an exciting place to be.
Drew: I'll ask the third one. What is the part of the job that costs you something?
Lauren: Uh, the uncertainty where your next job is coming from means that a lot of times you
can't plan for a vacation. Um, and actually Andy and I. Have still never taken a honeymoon
because, um, when we got married, we had just staffed on our first show and we asked, we got
married over Labor Day weekend and we had a Monday off, and we asked if we could take the
rest of the week off, like the four days just to get away for a little mini moon.
Um, and we're told, uh, you know, by a writer who's a friend now, so he is gonna hate to hear
this story said, said on
Stacy: Say his name. Say his
Lauren: uh, But, uh, but he said, listen, you could, you can take a honeymoon, but you're gonna
get really like, resented for it. It's not gonna go well for you. So we didn't, we went right back to
work.
Um, I think things are changing in this regard. Like I think people are getting to have more
personal lives, but when we started, you just like you bled for your shows. Um, and I think that
that part was hard not getting to have a honeymoon with my, uh, with my husband.
Jed: Oh, and number
Andy: We'll get there someday.
Lauren: Yeah.
Jed: yeah, if you had a time machine, what one piece of advice would you give yourself when
you started your television journey?

Lauren: I would say to be braver and to, um, make more of my own material, that's what I would
do.
Jed: Beautiful.
Drew: That is
Jed: love this. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for a wonderful episode. We'll be back next week
with, working as a duo or not in the ups and downs of, uh, being a writing duo.
Stacy: I can't wait to hear that theme song. It's gonna be incredible.