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Rachel: We have Calvin back there and we have Bella who's sitting right there. And then I think
Georgie's over in the corner. Georgie? Yeah, George's over there because Georgie won't leave
my side.
John: Alright, well we start every episode with Stacy, uh, doing a new theme song every week.
Stacy: Okay.
Rachel: Okay.
Stacy: All right. The call T Ss Ss hell yes. The showrunner show. The Showrunner Show with T
Ss s. Hell yes. The showrunner show. The showrunner show. The showrunner show, yeah.
Drew: I like that. Like that trail out is nice.
Stacy: I try. I wanted to work with Dynamics.
John: Yep.

Drew: Welcome to the show. Run a show where every week we demystify some aspect of the
job of show running for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV or just wants to know
how it's all made. I'm drew Dowdle.
John: I'm John Eric Dowdell.
Stacy: I'm Stacey Shabosky and we are glad you're here.
John: so this week we're talking, uh, we're looking for the best casting strategies. And we have
Rachel Tanner, who is one of our very favorite people in the entire industry. We, Drew and I love,
and Stacey, we all love Rachel. Like, and just working with her. Is funny. It's, she's like, just such
a good human. She has like, you can see like a hundred dogs behind her.
She's always adopting dogs and, and uh,
Stacy: When the boys gossip about you and talk behind your back, it's just as nice as this. It's
all like, oh, that Rachel Tanner.
Drew: One of our
TRUE
Rachel: same. It's the same way
Stacy: out with that Rachel Tanner more. It's like that.
John: Yeah.
Rachel: gossip the same way about you guys.

Drew: Oh, good. That's good to hear.
John: Thanks.
Rachel: It looks like I poisoned mine though doesn't it?
Drew: It does.
John: It's like Munchausen by Proxy, uh, with your dogs.
Drew: little like,
Rachel: Oh my God.
I feel like I could be Munchausen by proxy for sure.
Stacy: Just, like, too much dog joint medicine.
Rachel: Yeah. I watched that one. That's special with, uh, was it like Patricia? Yeah. It was
Drew: Picture Sharkette, yeah.
Rachel: I was like, Oh, I get it. I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. Kind of open like a
rescue and be like, yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.
Drew: Oh
John: so good. Well, and Rachel, Rachel is one of the premier casting directors in the world.
She works at the Cone Brothers, George Clooney, you know, Emmy Award winner, total badass.
you,
Stacy: what did you win Emmy awards for?
Rachel: I, well, I've won, um, I won for Fargo. Um, and I've been nominated for, I've got
nominated for Fargo, um, a few times and then got nominated for, um, Escape at Dannemora
and Severance.
Yes. Yes. Yes. And then, yeah, I'll be right. Exactly. Exactly. And then to clarify for Coen
Brothers, I used to work for Ellen Chenoweth and we would do and did Coen Brothers with her.
And then, um, he did a serious man that I shared with her, but, um, and then, then after True
Grits kind of went, um, uh, Kind of moved. Oh like left her and then she and obviously she
continues to do the Coen brothers But she's always done their stuff. I was her associate for a
long time. Yeah,
John: Oh, cool.
Rachel: so yeah.
Drew: That's a great person to, to come up underneath.
Rachel: Oh my god.
It's the best person Yeah, and then we just did Ethan's movie together. That's gonna come out
Driveaway girls and that's like September or something.

Stacy: Oh,
John: Oh, amazing. I Talk us through the ideal process from going from starting a project to, uh,
having IT cast,
Drew: And maybe too, you can actually add in that too, kind of like when you tend to come on
board, like with a showrunner, like when, at what stage do you typically, uh, you know, are you
injected into the process?
Rachel: Um, well, usually we come on early, you know, before everybody else and You know
the ideal what makes something ideal is generally the amount of time you get before a project
starts I would say I think that's kind of the ideal, you know situation is if you get a nice chunk of
time to really get to think out your ideas and time to approach people and Um, I mean, we've
done a couple of projects together so we can kind of like use our stuff as a reference point, but
you know, you want to, you know, you basically, you get your script and you break it down and
you know, the main thing you're going to start talking about initially is who's coming on board.
Like, what do we need? You know, like, who are we, do we need to have names in this? You
know, how many people are we anchoring this with somebody? This is, you know, not need
names. Like, you know, like it's kind of get a blueprint of just, um, you know, who, who's going to
be offers and who are not going to be offers kind of thing.
Who's going to have to come from, you know, the location, like when we shoot in Canada, you
know, sometimes budget restricts people who are going to come from on location and who's not
coming from location. There's just so many, like. Um, factors to just kind of get the reality, I
guess, of a, of a project sometimes.
Um, and then sometimes those parameters don't exist. It's kind of like, let's just get what we can
get, what we, what we want. And then we can kind of, you know, figure out the rest of it as we
go along. So, you know, let's pretend now we have no parameters, you know, let's say we can
just kind of go for whatever.
So we, I'll break down the script and, you know, obviously it'll be pretty clear as to who's the
lead. I'm going to kind of keep adding all these different caveats as we go along. Um, but it
depends obviously also if there's a lot, if you're getting a lot of scripts at once, are you getting
one script at once?
So sometimes I can see the whole scope of a role and know how much they're going to be
present in a season. Um, and sometimes, you know, you're just dealing with the first script
cause we're just talking about television,
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. Just
Rachel: Yeah. Okay. Right. So, I'm getting, Um, like I think on Waco, did we get all the scripts at
once? I kind of feel like we did. Didn't we? Yeah, the first one.
John: And the first one.
Drew: of them. Oh, the first one, the first one.
John: I think we had two or three when we started.
Rachel: Yeah. I felt like it may be like a blueprint for the rest of the, the season. Cause I felt like
it was pretty clear, like we had an idea as to who the roles were and how significant they were

going to be throughout the season in a pretty clear way.
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Rachel: You know, once you understand how many episodes people are going to be in and how
significant their parts and who are series regulars who are heavy recurring and things like
that, then at least, you know, , the level of.
You know, people you're going to approach and, and what you're going to be going for. So that's
just kind of like more the, you know, the, the, the meat and bones part of it. And then, you know,
the create part is then, then you break it down. So then you start breaking it down And I, you
know, I think when you start, you know, it's like when you read, you know, it's like when you read
books, like when you read anything, like, I think, you know, if you're up like a certain mind, like
you just start seeing, I think everybody sees in their brain, like what that person is, you know,
something comes alive for you always, you know, you start really, um, you know, visualizing and
feeling what, uh, what the role is feeling like.
And then, you know, a lot of times what I'll do is I'll sit down first. And, you know, make my first
initial list. So I call it my vomit list, you know? And I just like, I literally like vomit out anything in
my brain. Like even like the dumbest ideas that I think are probably ridiculous, but I just want to
get it like out of my system.
I'm sure maybe it's what you do when you write too, you know, I don't write anymore. So it's like,
it's just kind of like, like get it out. And, um. And then, and then, because then I can go back and
I can curate, you know what I mean? And I can start like really shaping what, you know,
because when I go back I can start like honing in and really kind of starting to To see like it's
such a uh, a visceral reaction like you'll see a name And you'll be like, oh, it's like a it's like a
sigh almost and you'll be like, okay And you you'll bold that name, you know, like, okay, I know
that person And so maybe if you made a list of 50 people, maybe you'll have like 10 or 15 that
you'll have that real super strong reaction to And you know, like those are your good 10 15 that
you feel like or 10 maybe that you feel really great about, then maybe you could have a 10 that
you're like, okay, I love this idea.
Maybe it's like kind of more out of the box or maybe it's like not right. Um, but you'll, you know,
you'll have that group too. And then maybe you just have like. The crazy list, you know, that are
just kind of whatever. Um, and then, you know, you'll sit down with your showrunners, you know,
and, and then you'll start talking about the role more and, you know, that hearing, you know,
what they, I like to do that step before sometimes, um, I sit down with, uh, creators because, you
know, you kind of want to have your own idea of the character, I think before you sit down, um,
so that
you. Yeah,
Stacy: Otherwise to be
like a costumer who's like, I don't know. How do you see it? It's like well, I don't know that's your
job
Rachel: right. Exactly. Exactly. Because then you keep right. Cause then, you know, when they
start talking about it, you can kind of see like in your ABC categories, like which, which, which
category is kind of morphing with yours. And then I could be like, okay, okay, well, yes, I see
what you're saying.
I, in that world, I, These are the people I think we're thinking of, but here's what I was thinking. I
was thinking, these are the column A, these are the column A people that I was thinking would

be amazing. And I would say almost always we're usually, you know, enmeshed, there's usually
at least like an overlap of like a group of people that will, will all feel, you know, gen, um,
Generally, we'll have, um, a real strong five people overlap or something.
And then a lot of times it's about talking about like the hierarchy within that five people. You
know, and maybe it's me getting materials to educate and maybe it's, you know, just kind of
talking things through, you know, it depends a lot about your show runners too, you know, about
how not, you know, knowledgeable they are, but also how open they are to things.
Um, obviously you guys are like, you guys are super, you guys are very open and also very kind
about the whole process. You know, you'll guys will be like, yeah, you'll always go like, yeah,
yeah. No, like your, your nose are all like, they're very gentle. They're always like, yeah. Like
you're like, I, you know. I see your point.
They're always like, but like, I'll see, you know, you see the point, you think it through, you'll
watch the materials. And then it's always like a, a gentle, like, I don't see it that way kind of thing,
you know, but I, I feel like, you know, there's a lot of showwriters who will let me, I call it my day,
like with Ben, I'll be like, okay.
I need, here's my day in court. Like I, I'm always like, I need to have my day in court and I'll
present like the craziest idea. And he, and he'll like, sit and listen and then he'll be like, and no
ter he'll be like, terrible idea. You know? But like, but we lay, I mean, it's funny, you know? Yeah.
Stacy: I want to jump in and ask you a question because I feel like so much of casting It ties up
with tone Do you know what I mean? Like, um, and I feel like different directors and
showrunners have their, and studios, I imagine, have, or networks, have their taste of how they
like to do things.
Like, you know, some people might want to stick a crazy character actor into everything so that
everything's got that texture of like, everybody's got a weird face and an interesting, you know,
body. Whereas other people might be like, I don't care, you know, the role can be the janitor.
That person's got to be hot, you know, like,
like
there are certain studios where everybody's got to be good looking, where everybody's between
the ages of 28 and 32, even the judge, you know.
So some people, you know, I think some creators love a leading man. Some creators love a
character actor. Do you come neutral to things or do you have a secret tone that you prefer
above all others?
Rachel: First of all, I never get the hot shows.
Drew: know, John and I
are, John and I love to like, you know, go as character y and non sexy as possible usually, but
give it a
Rachel: I mean, I, when I got, I got fast and furious, you know, and an agent called me and
goes, you got fast and furious. And I said, yeah. And he's like, why do they want weird character
people? I was like, I can cast sexy. I know what I can sound like. I can't do it.
I just, you know. Like I just, it's not been my world that I like, you know, and I wasn't really doing,
you know, when it came into television, um, when I was in LA, you know, um, When I, I came
here, I was mostly doing movies, you know, and I was doing Cone Brothers, so like, you know,

that pretty is not really like, it's just not part of the, you're just not thinking about that.
It's not like pretty people aren't in anything, but it's just like, it's just not part of your, you know,
process. And obviously, as you know, they love a great face and, you know, and, uh, I think all
the work we were doing in Chicago also kind of emphasized that, you know, we come from a
city of just great character actors and, you know, and, and comedians and character actors and
great theater companies that had also emphasized just great, you know, again, I'm not saying
there aren't, there's also a ton of attractive people in within that, but I just don't think the idea,
the idea that everything had to be pretty was emphasized in any of like, um, that stuff.
So I didn't, I wasn't doing network stuff, you know, my first real, I guess my first real series, I
think I'd done like me, probably a comedy central series before that, but was Fargo here.
Drew: yeah.
Rachel: So, you know, Fargo got let, you know, that was like a limited series and it's been a lot
of limited series and it's in a lot of like, um, you know, shows that don't shows in movies that
don't really just, it's just not the focal point.
so when it's been my own projects, so, again, anyone listening, I can certainly do it. I, it's not
that I can't gauge you what a beautiful person is.
Stacy: ha.
Rachel: Um, but, uh, yeah, I think I do come to it neutral. I mean, really at the end of the day, if
the role calls for, you know, needs a beautiful person, I'm not going to be like, no, it has to be a
character.
Character funny face, you know, whatever, like, you know, um, but you know, I, I respond to like,
you know, I like an interesting look, you know, I mean, I think,
Stacy: Me too. Ha
Rachel: I like, um, you know, like, you know, the world is a really physically interesting place,
you know, we all look different and we're all different shapes and sizes and looks and, and it's
fun to see it reflected, you know, on the screen, I think, and I gravitate towards it.
You know, movies and TV shows that, um, reflect that I think more than, you know, other stuff. I
mean, not that I don't love a good, you know, young adult something or other that, you know,
that, you know, there's a gossip girl in me somewhere, but, um, you know, but, it's not like my,
My soul, like, you know, like it's not my soul lane, you know,
Drew: Yeah. Well, your stuff has been, you know, so consistently at that like highest level of
performance. And I think when showrunners are going for that, when they're going for Emmy
caliber performances across the board, that tends to, you know, not necessarily be the 100%
sexiest cast in the, you know, it doesn't, those two things don't always go hand in hand.
I'm not saying there's not like incredibly beautiful people that are also really wonderful
John: There's a Venn diagram like they, they cross over each other, but you know, like sexy
does not always equal great actor
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Ha

Rachel: guess the best thing to say is I don't think I've had showrunners. I don't remember. I'm
maybe there, I'm sure there has been, but I don't remember having showrunners or networks or
studios say that we can't hire someone. Cause they're not. Pretty enough or someone needs to
be hotter or something like that Unless the role, you know mandates that like if it's something
plot driven and it doesn't someone's not meeting that for a story for a storyline reason Then
maybe that's the reason but I don't feel like we've had that many like conversations about About
that,
Drew: And well, I, I have one question and, uh, You know, there's the casting director role for us
as showrunners, the casting director role is really obviously hugely important, but really unique
in that, you know, Rachel will have once she comes on board, the studio network will have ideas
that they'll sometimes, you know, run through you and not through us.
And, you know, maybe John and Stacey and I will love an actor for a role, you know, and we're
just so passionate about it and maybe the studio or network doesn't love that choice that they'll
kind of, you know, try to manage it through. through the casting director to some extent. So you
probably have more, you know, interaction with the network, studio network apparatus over the
process, uh, independent of us than maybe any other, you know, person on, on the team.
And, uh, you know, so the question being is like, what is the most consistent feedback you get
from a network when you're trying to push an actor on behalf of showrunners, if you're trying to
push an actor that they're not so warm up, what is, you know, what are some of the reasons that
the network is, Not on board.
Rachel: you know, I have to say they don't I think they're very, careful about not, you know, they
really, um, I think they guard their, their words. You know what I mean? They'll just kind of be
like, they don't see it.
Drew: yeah,
Rachel: You know what I mean? That'll stay very vague. I think they don't want to say anything
that's like, you know, insulting or, or to, to you guys as a showrunner, to an actor that might be
someone who's going to work for them down the line.
Like, you know what I mean? They don't want to put anything out into like the world that's, you
know, um, so it's usually just kind of like, uh, you know, we're not seeing it. And it could be
something where I could say, well, look, my showrunners are super passionate. Can, is there
something we could? work on or do again with the actor to, you know, answer some questions
that they're having or, and then sometimes they'll be like, no, they just, you know, they'll be like,
put it, they could be just be like, put it to bed.
It's not never going to happen kind of thing. Or they could be like, yeah, you know, can you,
these are some of the notes we'd like that, you know, the actor to address or the showrunners to
address, you know, that we're not seeing or something like that. But usually it's not like, We just
hated her audition or we think she's terrible or he's terrible
Stacy: I
hate her big, stupid head.
Rachel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly I think it's a lot more diplomatic than you would think, you
Stacy: I
Drew: And we've done

Stacy: true of Hollywood in general. That when people, when people outside the business, like
think about it, or when you see Hollywood on screen portrayed, it's always people, you know,
quite rude and brusque and, you know, bossy and saying awful things. Where in general, I feel
like people are very discreet here.
People don't burn bridges. Even if they've had, say, you know, even if say a director's worked
with an actor and the experience has been terrible. They're not going to say it in an interview
because, you know, you know what I mean? You don't air your
Rachel: Oh wait, Stacey I think the point you were saying is that like everybody's a lot more
discreet than Then, um, then like it's portrayed and I think it's true and, you know, I think when it
comes to like acting, I, I, I actually think it's not wrong to be that way because, you know, I think
acting out of, I mean, I can only speak cause it's my own crap that I'm a part of that I'm adjacent
to, you know, it's like, that is like, you have like an off day, you know what I mean?
Like, it's just, it's like an off day. And, yeah. If that's the day you auditioned or that's the day you
did something or had your test or you had your whatever like that's what was presented and you
know, and you are like, you're judged on that. So like, that's something that like five days later,
you could be on point and amazing.
And, and so like, I think if you're, you know, if people are walking around town, like shitting all
like, you know, shitting all over and then Your next job, you're like the talk of the town. I just think
like it could just, you know, you know, backfire. I think it's like, it's almost like a kinder, gentler
way to like, you know, to, uh, to have some empathy, I think for, for the actors who I think like,
it's just so, you know,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.
Rachel: hard.
Like, I just, you know, I feel like they just kind of like, it's
Stacy: it's performance. Oh,
Rachel: Oh my God. It's totally like a sport.
Drew: You have your good games and your bad games. Yeah,
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: we've been through this with you, Rachel, where we really love someone for a really big
role. And, you know, the network didn't really see it. And we said, okay, well, what are your
concerns? And we took those concerns and did another round of, you know, of reads with that
actor to, you know, kind of alleviate those concerns and represent it.
And, and they still came back and said, we just don't, we just don't see this. And I think, uh, you
know. We found that it, it, it is not very helpful to kind of continue to fight that fight and say, you
know, but we see it and you know, like the, you have to kind of trust if they really don't see it, you
know, your interests are generally aligned and sometimes you can have different taste, but, um,
but if they really don't see it, you're fighting, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle, uh, the
entire show and it's worth moving on,
Rachel: Well, exactly. It depends. Like, you have to choose. Like, is, are you going to die? Is
that the hill you're dying on? Like, is it, you know, like, because you could go and fight the good

fight until you win and then know that you probably aren't going to win any other fights. Like, you
know what I mean?
Like, you have to choose. Or, sometimes I do think, um, it can be indicative of, like, are you
making the same
John: Yeah.
Drew: that's true.
Rachel: You know what I mean? Like sometimes these conversations really, I've been on a lot
of things where it begets a much bigger conversation about like, are we all making the same
show
Drew: That's a great point. That
Rachel: You know?
Drew: those first couple big attachments. Like, that is really where you, they kind of, the tonality
of the show kind of really comes into focus, I
Rachel: exactly. Like when it's so clear to you and it's not clear to them and you're like, wait a
minute. Like, you know, that's kind of sometimes when you're like, when you're in my position,
you're like, I mean, it's there, obviously they're paying for it, but you're the creatives and you're
like,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: you think of a real world example of that? That you'd be willing to share? I don't want you
to
John: That could be dangerous.
Stacy: talk behind people's back. If there's a good one where it worked out only, if there's a
good one where it worked out, where you're like, Oh, I thought it was that. But then once they
said that I go,
Drew: Maybe, yeah, maybe without naming names. Yeah, maybe there's an example without,
uh, naming names.
Stacy: we're not, that's
Rachel: um, it's like, I mean, the generic story of it won't be good because it's kind of like, oh,
there was a lead role and like the studio really pushed back and the showrunner was like, this is
crazy. Like we're not making the same show and fought and fought and pushed through and
then it was a huge
hit.
John: Oh, amazing.
Drew: Okay, good.
Rachel: Yeah.
Drew: And did the showrunner get

Stacy: yeah.
Rachel: Who
won showrunner
Stacy: or the
studio
Rachel: always
Drew: the studio of the showrunner did
Rachel: the show runner one on this one.
Drew: Oh, really? It was a huge hit? Okay.
Rachel: And it was a big hit.
Stacy: I want to know so bad.
Rachel: I know. I know.
Drew: We can, we can
talk after
Stacy: with schmargo? Yeah, yeah,
Rachel: know. It really, you know, I'll say at the end of the day, like, it's very rare that somebody
ends up in, um, a cast that you're like, when it goes to air that you're like, Oh my God, this is
horrible.
Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're just like, this was so wrong.
John: Yeah, that's,
Rachel: There's a couple times where it's been out of my control and somebody else has like,
chosen somebody and put them in and I'm, and I do feel that way when it's not my, of my
choosing where I, you know, it was like a showrunner's like, Oh, I worked with that person.
He's going to go here. And I'm like, Oh no, that's not right. But I can't win that fight. And then I,
when I, when it airs, I am like, Oh, that was, that was bad.
Drew: Well, how do you manage those situations where you think the showrunner is making a
wrong choice? Yeah.
Rachel: I mean, well, you, you can only, you know, you have to say, you say something, you
have to be like, you know, gently, like it just be like, I see what, cause I'll, I'll be like, I see what
you like in that person, but I kind of think it could be stronger with this person or, you know, and
then they'll usually be like, I worked with them and I love them.
And. You know, shut up in the nice, in a nice way, not shut up, but you know what I mean? Like,
you know, and you just have to, you know, you win some and you lose some, you don't win
everybody. You don't win every fight, you know? But I, you know, I think it's important that you
just have to make sure like you, you make your point, you know, I'm sure it is like with all every,

I'm sure you interview all the other departments and I'm sure everyone has the same kind of
thing where you, you, you present and you, you want to have your point of view and I think it's
kind of like deciding like when is it's like you were talking about with the studio Like when is you
know, like there's been times where?
a showrunner's been like, okay enough, you know what I mean? Like You gotta stop,
Stacy: Yeah.
Rachel: you know what I mean, where I'll be like, I know, I'm just telling you, I really feel it's this
person, like, I really, like, I tell, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they don't see it. And they're kind
of like, you need to like, shut it down.
And I'll say to Rick, like, I, I have to stop. Like I'm, now I've, I've gone, I, I went over too far. I
went over the, the line and, uh, you know, and then you just kind of have to like, you know,
John: well, I, I feel like some, I feel like some of the casting choices that people give us the
most credit for in our career have been people you've been like, seriously, look back at this
person, uh, like who are now big, huge, famous stars. You're like, look at this person closer. That
person's amazing
Rachel: mean?
John: uh, and we know when you like I gotta say there there are like I feel like so many
Departments that are just trying to tell you what they think you want to hear and then there's
someone like, you know Like you Rachel who?
Will just say what you see and that that's so valuable that you're not trying to I don't know You're
like everyone can trust you because they know you're playing politics or whatever, you know
what I mean? You're not helping get filmmakers on board with the studio or network or vice
versa.
Like, you're just saying what you see. Like, clearly,
Rachel: Right. Right. Like there's not another agenda.
John: just so, that's so helpful having...
Rachel: Well, I do make 30% of every actor's, um,
John: Ha ha
Rachel: that I, we hire. It's a separate little income. It's a separate business we have on the
side, by the way, you know, that there's somebody listening to this being like, Oh my God, I
cannot
John: hah. That's not true. That's not
Rachel: Casting directors are horrible, horrible. I knew they
John: Well, I got to say, too, there's casting directors, you know, we've seen that you get the
sense they don't really like actors and then there's casting directors who you can tell love actors
and just, I don't know, have a real, uh, soft spot and you, like, obviously, like, you love actors,
like, and that just, it's infectious, like, when you advocate for someone, it's like, this person's
amazing, I saw them do this thing and, like, I, I know this is an outside of the box idea, like, I
know nobody else would think to, like, Think of this person for this role, but I really think this
would be something special and, and not the, you know, sometimes there's like the character

description in the script and it's nice.
You come at it with not like, oh, it says tall, handsome, you know, six feet tall, handsome with,
you know, brown hair. Like you, you tend to throw that out and like cast for the essence of the
character versus the physical description that sometimes in the script.
Rachel: right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, I think I, you know, I think that that's
probably like the most, you know, fun, you know, the fun part of casting is when, you know,
you're feeling it and you're excited and it makes you feel passionate about it. Like that's just like
the part that gets you going, you know I'm sure every I know all my casting director friends, you
know feel the same way and operate the same way you know with that same kind of excitement
about finding people or pushing for people and you know, I think what's so funny is I was
thinking about Doing this day and there was something I don't know.
There's something I don't know why this popped in my brain but I always think it's funny like how
You'll remember like a performance from like 20 years ago. Like you saw them do one thing like
20 years ago and you're just like, you've decided that they are that actor.
Like, you might never have seen them again and you're just like, listen, he should totally be in
this role.
25 years ago, he'd played this part on Grey's Anatomy and it was so amazing and you know,
whatever. But like, um, and I think every, like, I'm sure, like, I know, like people I work with, like,
you know, we all do this cause we'll all like reference these crazy, like old references. Like I
remember, like I saw, um, um, William Peterson who like, he has, you know, he was You know,
see after his, you know, career, like his, um, you know, kind of went out doing, was he on CSI?
It
Stacy: Yeah.
Rachel: was a CSI, right? Yeah. Right. And he kind of took that
Stacy: of those, something with like tweezers and pubic hair. I don't know which one, but some
sort of like, Hmm.
Rachel: And before that
Stacy: the luminol.
Rachel: he had like a, you know, he was like a feature actor and he had like this whole thing,
but I saw him doing, um, Night of the Iguana at the Goodman like probably like 35 years ago
with Cherry Jones. In Chicago and I'm like, I have for till this day, if there's like a leading man
role, I'm
John: Yeah.
Drew: How old is he? Doesn't
Rachel: like, you can do it.
He hasn't acted in like 28. I mean, he's been, I don't even know if he's, I haven't even looked to
see if he's still been doing things or anything. I've just like decided because I saw him do it like
25 years ago or 30.
Stacy: you might be too young for this. I don't know when it actually happened, but did you see
Lori Metcalf in Glass Menagerie?

Rachel: Yeah,
Stacy: Did you see that? I
was reading about that in the New York Times. I didn't see it. I didn't live in Chicago. I was from
Pittsburgh. But they made it sound like that, like anyone who saw that, and that was a while ago,
just still, it will always be in their brain.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. There's a few shows that, yeah, for sure. Yeah. That night at the Iguana, I,
I don't know what it was. It was. It was the most, it was just one of those shows that just got into
my core and I've never forgotten it. I was like, so good. Yeah. That show was amazing.
Clockwork Orange was amazing with K Todd Freeman at Steppenwolf was so good and was
just so like they were kind of marketing it.
They were like out of the box theater, but it really was kind of out of the box theater. It was like
really in your face, in your face theater Steppenwolf. And it really was.
Drew: It's amazing how much interaction we've had with the Chicago theater world in our career
too with you and Michael Shannon and Paul Dillon and I feel like we've kind of cast out of, you
know,
Rachel: Yeah. And
Drew: theater world, you know, Shannon loves to, you know, whenever we have openings, you
know, like who's playing this role?
We don't have someone yet. Hey, have you thought about like Michael Shannon will always kind
of be pitching and it's always, you know, people from the Chicago theater world that
he's, he's pushing. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. Talk about, I mean, Killer Joe was like, Oh my God. That was like when he, that
original cast of Killer Joe with when Tracy like, that was a really fun time. That was so when I
was,
Drew: Tracy gave Mike his first job ever. Really.
Stacy: that originate in Chicago? Oh, cool. I didn't know that.
Rachel: yeah, yeah. With Paul and Shannon and it was so fun. So when I, um, when I got to
Chicago after college and I was like, I got an internship at this company called Jane Brody
Casting.
And so it was a casting agency. And, um, there was this girl there named Mickey Paschal, who
was also interning at a different part of the business. She, this woman had a husband who was
doing like, whatever, some, NPR thing. And, um, and so Mickey was interning, came over and
interned with me. And it was just kind of like the weird, I loved it.
Like it just clicked right away. Like the first thing I got on Baldwin was the Hudsucker proxy. They
were like doing it. So I was like, this job is the best. Like I got it, it clicked. And so it was like part
time full internship, part time full time. And I bought the company with Mickey. Like in two years
because this woman just wanted out, was like ready to leave.
So we were like, let's do this. And so I was 25. When we bought the company. Yeah. So you can
only imagine being a 25 year old, like id, owning a company in Chicago with like Tracy and Mike
Shannon and all these people. So people would come in, we would sit in the lobby smoking

cigarettes with all the actors, just like before they'd audition.
They'd like, just, we'd be out there smoking, smoking at our desk. We'd shut down from 12 to
one to do crossword puzzles. Then we'd have like, yeah, you'd have to do the, you know, the
crossword puzzle. And then on Mondays, especially you'd have to bring in your Sundays. And
then we'd have like Euchre festivals from like four to five and like, Oh my God, you bet.
I know you guys know how to
Drew: know it was you. Yeah.
Rachel: Hello Midwest.
Drew: I know.
Rachel: I mean, it was like, and then we'd go see everybody's show. You'd go to theater, like.
You know, all, I mean, it's like three, four times a week and like, and then you'd go out to the
bars with all the actors after. So like, it's just so funny to think about, like, I, I mean, I think about,
um, you know, going out with like Mike and all these people, like, you know what I mean?
To see like after their shows and everything and like, um, how it was like so intimate and fun and
everything. It's so different in LA.
Drew: it's so different in LA and I mean to, to kinda bring up the covid of it all. Like now, like, you
know, we used to, you know, John and I used to go sit with Rachel and read all the actors and
be there for the whole day and meet them all in person and
you know, Offer some direction, do a few takes, now it's, you know, all video and you just go
back to your hotel room after, you know, a pre production day and watch a bunch of, you know,
auditions on your computer.
It's just very, do you, do you as a casting director miss the in person of it all? Um, does that still
happen at all?
Rachel: Um, I, you know, it's happening, um, more in a callback situation or like a, a almost
even, like more like a final callback. I feel like. you know, with Ethan we did like final mix and
matches for a pilot. We did, we did final testings, things like that. I feel like, um, it's interesting
now I look back and I think, what a crazy mismanage of time.
that I had, like, doing business the way I did it. And it's funny, some casting directors were
already doing this way before COVID, the self tapes. And I was like, oh, harumph! You know,
like, like... What bad casting director is so weird, so lazy, like, I don't even know what I thought
and I was like, and you know, we had someone, we worked on the show, um, with somebody in
London and they were already doing self tapings way before COVID and I was like, Oh my God,
I was like, what is this process?
I was like, get the actors in, have a session, send it to me. Like, this is so long. This takes so
long, you know, because you'd be like, I'd be like, Hey, we need this really quick. And it'd be like,
okay, let me send out through this, let them sell tapes on the back and then let them do this. You
know? And I was just like, Oh my God, this is crazy.
Now, because of COVID, you know, what would happen is you'd have these sessions, right? All
day. First of all, well, okay, there's parts of it. So you'd have sessions as a person, as a casting
director, you have these sessions all day that you're in, then all the work that you don't get to do
during your session that you're in all day.

And you're in sessions every day, all day, then begins at 6 PM. So now you're working 6 PM to 1
AM every single day, doing all the work that you don't get to do during the day. So your days are
literally, I mean. You know, they're set like literally 17 hour days every day. Like they're just so
the days they were just, and they've just, they were really hard days, really, really hard, you
know?
And, um, and inefficient in the way that like, you know, you're only limited to getting to see a
certain number of people a day. Like, you know, if you have a role working on Friday and like,
you only get to see, you know, 15 people and then, you know, it just kind of like, doesn't let you.
you don't get to explore as much, to be honest, as you do now.
Like now you get to be like, if someone calls you like, Oh my God, I just signed this great guy.
You're like, great. Have him taped. Like, you know what I mean? Like you get to try so many
new people and, and like, because there's like the time risk, the time limits are the same, but
you get to manage your time.
So much more efficiently, you know, and then you have, and then you get to have the callbacks.
You get to have the, get to do the next step with everybody and, um, and still have that in person
piece. Um, but you get to, you know, just be able to like really see more people and take a lot
more chances than I feel like you got to initially.
Stacy: is so interesting because I've only heard it from the actor point of view of like, I have
some actor friends who were like. They're charming, the way actors are, and they're like, Ah, I
miss the small talk, I miss the chance to just connect and, you know, and the sort of chit chat
and, you know, but to go, well, that might be fun, but it's not efficient, and you're, I hadn't thought
of that, that you'll get to see so many more people because you're not like, how have you been?
How was your
John: Well, and, and, and actors can do, like, Five takes, you know what I mean? Like what you
were saying earlier, like some days you have an off day, you know But you could retape later
that afternoon the next morning like if you're if you're not in the right Emotional space as an
actor you could give yourself, you know Give yourself a vomit take where you try something
crazy and watch it back and go like, you know Oh, that's not quite right.
Like you can you can try things too
Rachel: If I was an actor, I would be self tape all day long.
Oh my God. To have the control. I can't, I, I would, I, that would be my jam that like, just like you
said, because you don't get to, you don't get to do that in a room. You know what I mean? Like,
eventually you're gonna get kicked out. Like you just don't get that much time.
You can't, you can't, like, you know what I mean? And then when people like, you know, and
then it's like, you know, sometimes people don't show up and then you just took a spot that
nobody got, you know, that's an actor could have had. And you know, sometimes people are
like, I think, you know, I feel like actors not, you know, like, you know, there's, I'm not making
mass generalizations, but like, you know, sometimes someone would show up and be like, you
know what, I'll just figure it out
John: yeah,
Rachel: You know what I mean? Instead of coming in with like a choice and you know, and then
that's a real long time. That takes a lot of time in the room. You know what I mean? And, and,
you know, I mean, I'm not saying sometimes that's not fun, the process, you know, the process
of discovering it, but that's a lot of time.

And again, that just takes away opportunities for other people too, you know, and, and it's just
hard. I mean, there's a lot of actors, you know, and this has allowed. I understand. I know how
isolating it's been for actors to not be able to have the traditional, um, opportunities that it used
to be, but it's really, um, given a lot of other people opportunities, the ones who aren't with big
agencies and aren't, you know, so easily represented and, you know, a lot more marginalized to
have opportunities that they haven't before.
And we've been able to meet so many more people and discover so many new people. And so,
of course, see, like. You know, the, the people that we love, you know?
Drew: that's great.
Rachel: yeah. And actors do, you know, and they make choices and they have fun.
Stacy: I was
going to ask about choices. Do people, because that's one thing when you go into the room, you
know, you come in with a choice, but you know, you can get the feedback of like, no, no, no. Do
it more businesslike. Do it more,
Rachel: yeah,
Stacy: less with your mouth, Stacey,
Drew: Your choice is wrong. Yeah, your choice was wrong.
Rachel: Yeah.
Stacy: Stop doing this.
You know, do you, do you find when people send in self tapes, they're not going to get that. Do
you, does it go better? When they make a bold choice and it might be the wrong choice, but it's
a bold choice or do you, is it better when somebody is just keeps it a little bit more, uh, neutral,
classic
Rachel: no. I feel like always, always make a choice.
Stacy: Always make a choice.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, look, I can only speak for my office. I feel like I could probably speak for
at least my casting director friends, you know, because, you know, with all, there's been a lot of
casting drama, I feel like lately, like, you know, with the, there was like, well, there was this
whole thing about, um, a casting company that advertised what for actors to be able to rent their
space.
To tape to self tape,
you know, and the, I think the reality is it's a kind of like a separate part of the company and I
just don't think it was like a, like the person who owns all of it. I don't think even probably knew
that that was.
Stacy: I see.
Rachel: It's just two separate companies under an umbrella, you know what I mean?
Because there's like different, it's like they rented out for theaters who need things or podcasts.
You know what I mean? I think it's just a separate like taping facility part of it, but it triggered like

a lot of stuff and like people wrote the meanest things about casting. I was like, I was like, what?
I mean, and, and actors were writing things about casting is lazy and need to get back in the
room and they're great, greedy and lazy. And it was like the, first of all, I was like, none of you
know what we do for a living. Like you read what people write about it. And I was like, do any of
you understand what we do for a living?
Hey, but a lot of the stuff people wrote, I was like, Oh my God, it's just like, you know, you wish
you could kind of like, you're not going to respond and I can get in the fray. But, um, but like, you
know, again, for the people I know, like. We watch every single tape, you know, people are like,
they don't even watch tapes.
It's like, Oh my God, if we requested your tape, I'm watching that tape from start to finish.
There's no reason I'm not. I wanted to see it. Like I want to watch the whole thing. And let me tell
you something. If I see anything that is like, you know, speaking to me, that's right, that's right
for this role.
And it's not quite there. I'm going to tell your agent, I'm going to give you notes. I'm going to call
you and we're going to talk about it and you're going to retape it.
You know, and then we're going to get it on point and then we're going to send it off. You know
what I mean? Or I'm going to send it to my director and say, this is a, this tape, it's not quite
there, but you'll, she's, she's great.
Wait till you see this or that. And then we
Stacy: fast forward to eight, eight minutes and 29 seconds. You're going to love this choice.
Rachel: Oh yeah. By the way, that's the other thing about these page numbers. Yeah. We also
don't give like 20 pages, like, cause I'm not going to sit through 20 pages of watching people do
stuff. So like, that's my other thing.
Drew: I was going to make that exact point though, Rachel, I think for actors now that they don't
come into the room and they don't, you know, occupy that 50 minute slot and know that they're
being seen, like, I think kind of self taping and sending it in can feel like you're just, you know,
sending your work into the void and it's like anyone actually even seeing this.
And I know, you know, actors that I'm close to that are doing self tapes all the time have that
question. Like, is anyone even watching this? And I, you know, and working with you, it's like.
You watch absolutely
everything you receive, which is like incredible, but I think this kind of new way of doing things
actually allows for that and probably gives a lot more aspiring actors opportunities
as a result.
Stacy: this is obvious to say, but I think being an actor, it's an enormous amount of rejection.
You get rejected so much just to maybe get, you know. There's, for the average actor, the ratio
of rejection to job is, is really painfully high. And there's only one face of rejection.
If you, you're like, there's this whole industry, but there's only one person that you're like, Could
you give me the job? No? Like, the casting director is the face of rejection to actors. And so
there's so much anger. You know, there's like, Why won't you? I've, I've given up my life. I've
never gone on a vacation and I'm 65 years old.
Just stop

rejecting me.
Rachel: I'm like, yeah, I, I, I could, I could not tell you the stuff that I was reading. I was like, oh
my God, it was so harsh. And I was like, yeah. And I was, I, I felt so, um, it was so, it was really
mean. But also it's like, I know, well, I mean, it's not like whatever, you know, but it just was kind
of, it was, I, I felt all the frustration, right, all that stuff that was just coming up from like, you
know, from the, the way things have changed from the pandemic.
And, you know, and I mean, you can imagine, I mean, there's so much emotions, right. That
have just been building up from the pandemic period. And then your work changes so
significantly. And then this is such a subjective and. Vulnerable industry, like it's just like compile,
compile, compile and like what, you know, everyone's, you know, becomes a villain one way or
another, I think at one point, you know, and so, um, I kind of like, obviously there's part of me
that understood it, but I just wanted to be like, we work every day, all weekends. Like I haven't
taken a, you know, I don't think I've taken a vacation in seven years. You know what I mean?
Like, like it's like, it's not, you know what I mean? You work all night. Like
Stacy: I also, I, I'm not saying you're the face of rejection. Now I feel bad. It's
like a, it's
not
Rachel: I really, I
Stacy: you could even love the person and pass them through that you're actually watching all
this stuff that it's like they're, they're getting, they're getting rejected way down the line, you
know?
Rachel: no, I know. I, trust me, I couldn't be an actor. I, I, you know, I feel bad getting rejected in
my own career. Like, I, when, I mean, it's not like I get everything I want and get everything that
I, you know what I mean? So it's like, you know, it's, um, it doesn't feel good and I couldn't do it. I
also can't act. So that's the other part to the story.
But, but, uh, you know, I'm not an actor, A lot of actor, a lot of actors, you know, um, I'm not an
actor turned casting director, so, um, that wasn't my route, but, I mean, you know, any actor
listening to this, you know, should know that they really are like such a huge piece of our
passion, you know, they bring I mean for you guys to you know Like as a collective they bring
our stories to life You know what?
I mean? And and we're like we get to be the piece to help that process, you know, like blossom I
mean that couldn't be in the world but like, you know and and it's so exciting and it's so exciting
when you find that person and it fits and and then You know, we get to send them to, you know,
we send them to you and you see it and you're excited and then you make the deal and then
they get to get it and then you guys do your stuff and then you see it on the screen and it's
amazing and then if it goes on to even better glory and, you know, reviews or awards, like, you
know, whatever, or the, and then the careers go or whatever happens, it's just, it's like thrilling,
it's thrilling, but you know, and, and so it's like, we really could not celebrate.
Great. You know actors more and I know the process is hard and you know I just can only speak
for myself and people. I know it's like we really do you know, we watch everything and You
know, it's seen I mean
John: and
you advocate, like I, I can say from the other side that you advocate for actors in a way. Uh,
with, uh, with a passion and, uh, I don't know, a love for the actor that, yeah, is really

Stacy: you seem so fond of them. You'll say things like,
John: love them and you advocate for them,
like,
every day.
Drew: And you're trying to see what's, you're trying to see with every audition what makes that
person right for the show versus, I think, you know, a prevailing mentality can kind of be like,
you're in the business of saying no to everybody until the one kind of makes it undeniable. But I
feel like you have that kind of.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Flip the script on that and kind of like, what about this person makes them
good for this role? And uh,
Rachel: Yeah, I mean when Rick, when Rick and I like, when we like, watch a video, like if he
sees something, I see something, we send it to each other. I mean, we are like, and it's like,
we're excited. It's like, it just goes, it's like a loop. It's like, it's like we're like Rain Man. We're like,
blah, like over and over and over and over.
And I, I literally, I have an audition from a movie. So long ago, and he didn't get it because they
ended up giving it to like a name. But it was so funny that I just pull it up every once in a while
and watch it just because he makes me laugh. It just makes me laugh. He said he came up with
like an improv that was like the funniest thing and I still this was from Oh my god, this had to be
like 10 years ago, and i'll still watch it because
Stacy: Does he know that? Did you tell him
Rachel: Now I never told him that it's so funny.
I should tell him that He, yeah, he came up with the funniest line. I probably use it. I say it all the
time and I just like, I'll watch it every once in a while. It just makes me laugh and you know,
yeah, I, you know, I know, I
Drew: Yeah, you're also one of those rare casting directors that calls us in the middle of
production to be, you know, to ask, like, so how's it going? You know, you don't wait till the show
comes out and be like, Oh, that was a great, that worked great. You actually call
during
production and say, how's it going?
You know, like, especially if it's one of those more, you know. hotly contested choices. Um,
I, I feel like I always get a call from you mid, mid, midway through production and be like, tell
me, how's it going? Was it the right call? And I
Rachel: right. Exactly.
Drew: this was absolutely the best choice.
Rachel: right. Well, I mean, we had that whole thing. Remember we had such a long, I mean,
on picket, we had such a long, um, uh, process for the wife. Remember?

Yeah,
Drew: of want to mention that too. Like, what I loved about that process and I think is maybe
helpful for some people to know is like, when you go down the, you know, down the path of
starting to cast your lead leads, you know, your top three or four, um, there's often, You know,
the network wants a name for, for all those like lead leads.
They want a name, you know, almost, you know, for every show. And, uh, and sometimes you
kind of go through those, you know, name lists and, you know, a lot of people are unavailable. A
lot of people don't wanna do an ongoing series, you know, whatever, this, a lot of 'em fall off the
list just based on, you know, the dynamics of their life or their availability.
Stacy: life stuff, like divorces and not legally being able to work in Canada, or
Drew: That too. I mean, Canada's not for everyone. Um, but, uh, what I loved about the
Marybeth picket process was like, you know, which you so are so good at managing too, is like,
okay, let's keep looking at the names, but let's also go on a parallel track and. Audition a lot of
people cause it's a lead, lead role, but it could be someone who comes out of auditions.
And you mentioned at the top of this episode to the kind of world of offer only versus, you know,
not offer only an offer only for those who don't know, are just basically the kind of list of namey
actors who won't come in and read for a role that you basically make an offer just based on
their, you know, material that exists in the world.
And, um, whereas not offer only people will come in and read and send you. a tape of an
audition. Um, so we kind of did both at the same time for Marybeth Pickett, where we were
exploring kind of bigger names, but then also really reading tons of women in, you know, L. A.
and New York and Chicago and Vancouver and Toronto.
We were reading everywhere. And, uh, um, and that was one of those situations where it went
to, you know, the person to, you know, Juliana Gwil who, who read for it and just absolutely stole
it. And it was one of those auditions where it's like, you know. Was undeniable and she is such a
huge part of the show.
She is such, you know, a huge part of the attraction to that show. I can't tell you how many
things I read online that she is like such a beloved character. Maybe the favorite, favorite
character for so many people. this is one of those situations. I think a lot of actors out there
might think, you know, they always go with the name. They're always going to go with the name
over who's right for it. And this is maybe one of those very clear examples when faced with that
choice of like.
Do we pay someone a ton of money who may not be quite creatively right for it, but they're
recognizable and people know them versus the person who is undeniably the creative perfect fit
and, uh, who people might not know her name and, and, and in this case it went, it went that
direction. And I
think that's, you know, really exciting for us as showrunners.
It's so exciting when it does, when that does happen, because then you feel like you really have
something to prove with that actor and, you know, uh, a situation that might, you know, really
changed their lives in a huge meaningful way. And, um, to us, that's really exciting.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Stacy: If you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us wherever
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That all really helps us find our audience. Thank you. We appreciate it.
Drew: Thank you.