This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
Stacy: Okay, here is this week's theme song. Award winning already. Please subscribe if our
podcast is gonna survive. We make it oh so good, but not many people watch it yet, listen yet,
but they should. The showrunner show!
John: Oh my gosh. Maybe my worst. No, not, not even close to your worst, not even
Stacy: close.
Welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of
show running. For anyone who works in tv, who wants to work in tv, or who just wants to know
how it's all made. I'm Stacey Shaki.
John: And I'm John Eric Dol. Uh, we're happy you're here.
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. It's just us this week. It's kind of crazy.
We usually have Drew and a guest, but now it's just us and we're married. So we can just do
things like talk about the grocery list or childcare, right? You guys won't mind if we just slip into
that, will
John: you? Yeah. This week we're talking about working through your own internal resistance.
Uh, you know, let's say you have a script to or an outline and you're having a hard time focusing
on it.
And I like to say, you know, the nice thing about working in TV is there's just no time for
resistance. There's no time for perfectionism. There's no time for, for any of that, you know, you
just have to get it done. And that can, that can be really daunting, really hard. And, uh, especially
before doing this, you know, before doing TV.
Like, it would take me a year to, you know, to write a script, or like, I'd spend all this time lovingly
crafting each scene, and I was always worried, like, oh, when TV's moving that fast, how do you,
how do you know you'll get it done? Like, how do you, how can you get, work at that speed, um,
I think the only way you can It is so different.
It's so different and, uh, yeah, there's a Steve Martin quote, uh, Writer's block is a fancy term
made up by whiners so they can have an excuse to drink alcohol. I love that. I love that. I, you
know, I feel like when doing feature scripts like, you know, or for the novice, there's this idea of
like writer's block.
I'm blocked on the script. In television, you, you're on a moving train and you gotta keep moving,
uh, even if
you're
Stacy: handing it There's another great quote. That novelist, what's the thing about like, what's
the, it's the famous one about like, uh A great poem? I only write when inspiration hits.
Fortunately, inspiration hits every morning at 9am.
Oh yeah. You know what I'm saying? You know that
John: one? I love that one too. But, you know, I guess first let's start by talking about what
resistance is. You know, what it is and then, you know, some strategies we've used to get
beyond that. Uh, so I, I'd say what it is, is fear, essentially, you know, so much of the

Perfectionism, fear.
Yeah. And really perfectionism is, I think, a version of fear too. Like, you know, it's, uh, if I can't
get it perfect, I can't do it. Um, and, you know, the fear that you're going to get it wrong, the fear
that you're, you know, don't understand the scene or the character that you're going to get
rewritten, or, yeah.
That the studio or network won't like it. Um, I think all those things or, you know, sometimes it's
just burnout too. Sometimes you're exhausted.
Stacy: I experienced this feeling a lot as like just a discomfort in my body. That's how I, you
know, like, so I'm not sitting there going, I am so I'm going to be rewritten.
That's probably what I'm feeling deep down. But how it shows up is I just, God, like my chair
doesn't feel good. My desk doesn't feel good. None of it feels right. And then when I sit down, I
can't focus. You know, I just find myself easily distracted. I'm not having fun. You know? Yeah.
But it's kind of interesting.
Um, Steve pointed this out. My brother pointed this out in a helpful way of like, you know, when
you're an amateur, you kind of do things because it's fun. And you know, you're doing it right
when it feels good. I just had this, even though I wanted to work on this pitch I'm developing that
I've been working on for.
And that's the thing I'm supposed to do yesterday. I was struck by this new idea and I just sat
down for hours. It just flew out of me full scenes. Like I meant to make notes about like, we
could do this or that. Instead, it came out as full scenes and it felt so good. It physically felt
good. And not only was it easy not to pick up the phone or do anything like that.
In fact, I actually ignored the sweet potatoes in the oven. And I, you know, like I just kept going
with the flow. That is a delightful feeling. And if you're an amateur, you can let that be your, your
guide the whole time. If you're a professional, you cannot wait for, you know, you cannot wait for
it to feel good.
You have to just like meet the deadline. Does that make sense? Like just because it feels
tedious or difficult or not super fun doesn't mean you're not doing it right. In fact, if you're a pro,
you probably are doing it right. There's a little burnout and sorry, I'm completing the flow of this
of, um, you know, I was saying that, that.
Oh, when I have resistance, it just feels gross. Like I'm just like, I don't, the chair, my lumbar
support, I hate it. The opposite is true too. When there's a deadline, like an actual deadline of a
real show you're working on, not just a spec that you're working on where you have an internal
deadline with your writing partner, not just a pitch where you're like, eh, it'll be done when it's
done, but an actual show that you're working on with an actual deadline, like, Hey, we're
shooting this scene tomorrow.
Can you finish the rewrite on it? When you've got that, I found that I did on Joe Pickett, because
so much of it is set in nature, I found myself often with my laptop, sitting on a stump by a creek,
just typing what could not be, it was so physically uncomfortable, but I didn't feel the discomfort.
Does that make sense?
Like on set, on set, on set, like, yeah, when I'm on set, I'm sitting on a stump. Bugs are biting
me, but the scene has to be turned in immediately, so I don't notice any of that at all. I just feel
fine. Yeah, the
John: adrenaline can sometimes, yeah, pick up, help you pick up the slack, you know, on some
of that. And sometimes, you know, I remember I worked with an actor a long time ago who had

this like, well, I basically just play myself.
So, you know, I don't have to, like, he didn't, you know, study acting, didn't he, you know, and
this was, you know, back in our, like, really amateur days, you know, this isn't, uh, anyone you'd
know or anything. But he had this, like, oh, I don't need acting, I just kind of play versions of
myself, it's fine. But then there was one day where that guy was going through something
emotional in his own life.
And he didn't feel like the, like, you know, version of himself that he wanted to play and he had
built no craft to, to get beyond that. I was like, Oh, this is why you have to build craft. You know, I
remember at the time having that like, Oh, this is why you build craft is so you have a, a System
of tools to fall back on when you're not feeling it, you know, when you're like, I used to like, you
know, write and I'd be like, you know, crying and like, you know, having, you know, laughing and
crying and having all the big feelings.
And now half the time when I write, I'm, I'm writing and, uh, you know, it's like, okay, this is, uh, I
love it. I love it. It's, you know, it's my job and I love writing. Um, but.
Stacy: But it doesn't always get you high.
John: You know you
Stacy: high. It's super fun when it gets you high, but I think the more you do it, for real, like the
more you actually do it, the less often you get high.
John: Yeah, well, sometimes it's like, okay, I gotta write a shootout scene, and uh, I don't know.
Like, don't know what to do with it. I don't feel like doing that right now. Like, you know, like I
gotta say, there's, there's still no feeling better than working on the script you're not supposed to
be working on. Oh, it's so true.
It's like, everyone's waiting on me, but I'm working on this thing, my passion project. A hundred
percent. It like goes back to like, you know, I feel like in my. In my twenties, like so often it was
like, well, I should be looking for a job, but I'm writing and it feels so good. Yeah. 'cause it's, it's
so, I'm, you know, I it's, it's like a, an act of subversion or like, it's so true.
Like something you're not supposed to be doing. And that's, so that
Stacy: would be like, I'm supposed to be turning around draft number 8 billion of the final scene
of act four of episode three. But what I'm really doing is working on my novel. Yeah, totally. And
it's so fun. Yeah. Um, I agree. But,
John: but there has to be a system, you know, especially if you're show running, especially
because as you know, show running your, your competence as a showrunner is judged almost
as much on.
Delivering scripts on time as it is on quality of scripts. Yeah. Wow. That's harrowing. Like, not,
not only do you have to get through your own resistance and get your, you know, scripts and
rewrites done, but you have to also help your writers, you know, get through their resistance and
get their scripts done on time.
And, uh. Well, that's
Stacy: probably a two parter, right? Like to get scripts on time, the showrunner's not writing
every script. So. Part of it would be delegating correctly, right? So that your writers know to keep
chugging along. And then the other part, a big part, is that a lot of times the showrunner, I mean,
they're always going to be the final one allowed to look at the, at the script.

And a lot of times they do, they are the final pass. Sometimes they rewrite a lot of scenes. Do
you know what I mean? Like, like, uh, uh, obviously people in the business would know that, but
maybe a first time listener might not realize that just because, um, basically many different
writers write the episodes, but the showrunner always has the.
Prerogative to do a final pass of them. So take and go, great, you did a wonderful job. Now I'm
just gonna shorten this scene and add this joke. Do do do. And they might not always do it, you
know, but usually
John: they do. Yeah, usually they do. And, you know, and as a showrunner, like, you know,
you'll get scripts that need a lot of work and that, you know, at moments, it's like a miracle
sometimes when they show up and you're like, oh, I can.
I can hand this in without, you know, doing much of anything. And, and so often it's, you know,
so often the other writers are. They're trying to mimic the voice of the show, which is, if you're a
showrunner, it's probably your voice, and it's not easy to write as someone else, and so, you
know, that, that you would be just as hard writing in their voice as it is for them to write in your
voice, and so that, that's just part of it.
That's part of it. Part of it is you're gonna get scripts that don't sound like the show, or that don't
feel like the show, or, or, I've seen, you know, moments where. I'll say, you know, I'll start with
like one of the, you know, unhealthy ways of overcoming resistance is by like drinking or getting
stoned or, you know, sometimes writers use that as a way of getting past their resistance.
And I've, you know, been delivered scripts, you know, from, you know, higher level people where
you're like, Oh my God, what is this? Like I don't understand what. What happened here and
then to realize later like, oh, I think this is a way of getting, you know, they're using this as a way
of getting through.
They were high. Yeah. Through their
Stacy: resistance. I wanna be, I wanna be clear about, when I was talking about getting high
earlier when ready, I meant high on dopamine. I did .
John: Oh yeah. Oh no, of course.
Stacy: Course. Smoke a bowl and sit down and write a bunch of crap. I meant, but, and
probably people realize that, but when I was talking about like, oh, you're right, and then you're
feeling high, I meant dopamine.
John: Of course. Of course. And, you know, I'll speak for myself, like, I, I know in my twenties,
you know, early on in, in writing, I would regularly like use alcohol, use weed, like to help like
loosen me up to write and my scripts were never all that good. And then I got to a point where I
was like, honestly, just spending too much time on my own.
in altered states. And it, it really was having a horrible impact on my life. And I, I had to get to the
place where I was like, okay, well, even if I can never write again, I have to stop doing this. And I
got sober and suddenly my scripts got coherent and good. Uh, and I developed craft and And
that, that was a life changing realization for me.
I, I had this real limiting belief on that front and, and as an adult and as a pro, like, you know, I, I
have a whole, whole bunch of little tricks and tools. Um, one of my favorite is, uh, my sand timer.
I have a 20 minute sand timer. I can do anything for 20 minutes. And I'll flip my sand timer and
I'll give myself 20 minutes of reading this next script or writing this next, you know, writing this
scene.

And often by the time that 20 minutes is over, I'm, I have a flow on or, or I've at least taken a big
bite out of it. And then maybe I'll tell myself like, after this 20 minutes, I'll take a walk or I'll, you
know, do something, you know, nice and relaxing or, you know, do a wordle or whatever, you
know, have a tea.
Stacy: Um, If I've really got a deadline, I'll do the same thing with a timer. I use my phone and I
set a 30 minute timer, although that's dangerous, right? Because you've got your phone, which
is the ultimate black hole to suck you in away from your work. So I get why a sand timer is
better, but I'll set my alarm for 30 minutes or 45 minutes.
And then or 20 minutes and I'll set it aside and then when it rings, I'll do jumping jacks or I'll pee
or I'll get a water. I'll do something where I physically move around. Now that's if I really have,
um, like a big deadline or if I'm, if I'm out on outline, but I'm eager to get back to the room. So
that's one thing a lot of times, um, you know, speaking of showrunners, they're kind of on all the
scripts all the time, but the writers who are actually in the room.
They often get to leave the room, like, hey, you're out on outline, you know, don't show up until
your outline's done. Um, and it's different for every room and it's communicated differently for,
but sometimes people are allowed to leave. I mean, I think I've been on stuff where people left
the room for like 10 days.
For an outline or something insane. I like the room. I love talking. I hate the idea that if I'm gone
for 10 days, oh my God, that's 10 days that I've had nothing to do with the show. You know, I'm
going to come back and be like, wait, what, what are we doing? I like the room. So when I go
out on outline, I'm trying to blast it out as quickly as possible.
So I can get back in the room and I'm not one of those heroes who can be like, well, I'll just stay
up till three in the morning. I don't, I don't stay up till three in the morning. It's not, I'm old. I'm not
going to do it. You know what I mean? I'm going to have a normal banker's hours. So I have
absolutely no idea what I'm talking about anymore, but oh, the inspiration of like, you set your
timer, you crank it out, you take a sip of water, you do some jumping jacks and you get right
back into it.
So you can finish whatever you're working on as quickly as possible. So you can get back to the

John: room. I think that's great. And, you know, I have to say too, like the, the idea of like, you
know, on set director say, you know, you, you don't, when you're more, you don't lose your day,
you know, at the end of the day, you lose your day in the morning, you know, when you have all
the time in the world.
Um, and I, I think the same is true with. Outlines and scripts. Like if you have 10 days to write an
outline or, you know, two weeks to write a script or something, and you spend the first week and
a half of that, or the first, you know, seven days of that just like goofing around, then suddenly
it's like trying to write, like, I mean, here's a funny story, like trying to write under that.
The stress, like the, like, I feel like the best writing happens with ease, not with like, Oh my God,
I have to get this done today or I'm dead. You know, like that adding that extra layer of fear, uh,
or stress can be really hard to just focus through where we, you know, on, uh, the movie devil
that I directed years ago, we were re writing, we, we are redoing, uh, Uh, a section at the start.
And so we had to do a rewrite on this opening scene, but nobody could agree on what the
scene should be. And so it was like me in a room writing and we had an entire crew sitting in the
hall waiting to go on a location scout and I'd write a version of the scene and then the studio
didn't like it. So then I wrote a different version of the scene and then M.

Night Shyamalan didn't like it. He was producing and then And I had like 50 people sitting in the
hall waiting. You know, there are buses outside waiting and they needed me to write this and I
just freaked out. Like I, I was just like in this, like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what they
want from me.
And uh, I actually called Stacy's brother, Steve Shabosky and I was like, Steve, I don't know
what to do. There's 50 people sitting in the hallway and nobody likes what I'm doing. Um. And
he's like, okay, just slow down. And, and just like talking to him, he was like, oh, that's the worst.
Like, you know, when, you know, it gets, you know, down to the wire like that.
And, um, and he just sort of helped me slow down a little bit. And we talked through the scene. I
tried a third thing and, um, and it went through okay. But yeah, there are those moments. I'll say
that's another strategy is talk to someone you trust, talk to someone you trust. Like I, all kinds of
times, like I'm stuck on a scene and I'll talk to Stacey, I'll talk to Drew, I'll talk to, Nelson or, you
know, an actor or like, and just talk through a scene because so many, what you don't have time
to, I don't know, to ruminate over like you would on a feature script in TV, like part of the
counterbalance to the speed you need to deliver things in is a room full of people working on it
with you.
Yes. Yeah. So bringing things back to the room, bringing things to the showrunner or to the, and
just saying like, I'm stuck on the scene. I don't know how to get into the scene. And like often,
you know, talking a scene through with Stacy, um, for five minutes will save me hours. Oh,
thanks. And, and we'll help, you know, oftentimes like I'm going into the scene the wrong way
and I'm, I feel that, but I can't quite articulate it and Stace will be able to be analytical and be
like, Oh, this is the problem is, and diagnose something I, you know.
I do love analyzing. Yeah. And that, so I'll say, you know, sand timers, gamifying, you know, your
workload, talking with, you know, the people you work with.
Stacy: What about, uh, MIQ? I want to talk about MIQ for a sec. I used to love that one. So
MIQ, your most important question. Now this is something you do more at the early stages when
you got the full room and you're probably not shooting yet.
You know, this is all pre production. I guess you could do it in production, but your room has
probably. Disbanded by then. But sometimes whoever was running the room, whether it was you
or Lauren and Andy or Nelson, whoever's running it, would give us like a, hey. They would give
us a challenge or a question for the next day.
Like, how are we gonna introduce this character? Or What should the big climactic fight be? Or
whatever. Or, Hey, we've got a, there's a clue that we've got to get out. What? You know, 'cause
we do thrillers and stuff. There's this clue we've gotta get out. What's the best. Way to do it, or
what's the best way to do it in a way that features these particular actors, whatever.
And then what I like to do is, so that's the question and you're supposed to bring it in the next
day at like homework. And I'm very gold star student. So I get super irritated when we. Do it and
we bring it in and then whoever's running the room doesn't ask for it. Be like, excuse me, you
wanted to know how we're going to resolve that clue and I worked on it all night.
So what I like to do is I make it the MIQ, the most important question. And before I go to sleep, I
just tell myself like, Hey, when you're asleep, if you wouldn't mind, if you could just come up with
a cool way to. Land that character or solve that clue or, if you could just come up with like a cool
idea for that, that would be great.
Okay, good night. And then I'll go to sleep, and I don't actively think about it. It's not like I lay
there, because if I actively thought about it, then I would probably have trouble falling asleep. So
I just like, give it up to my subconscious. I go to sleep, and honest to God, more than half the
time, it's not foolproof, but more than half the time, I wake up, or I'll even wake up at like four in

the morning, like, Hmm, gotta voice memo this, and I'll have it, I'll at least have something.
You know, and, uh, that is just the most delightful feeling when your subconscious does all the
work and you get all the reward.
John: Yeah. And yeah, to trust your, yeah, your unconscious mind and to trust your, and you
know, that's part of the benefit of having time. You know, if you, if you start working on your
script right away when, you know, instead of waiting till the last moment.
Like, but if you start like picking away at it.
Stacy: Yeah, because you're writing an outline in January, you're, you're blue skying something
in December that you're going to outline in January that they're going to be shooting in July or
June, you know, not always. I think some shows that, that, uh, I bet network shows that have, I
think 4 billion episodes.
per season. I'm sure they're, uh, you know, writing and shooting as they go, but anyway, there
can be a lot of
John: time. Or sometimes the writer's room breaks down and, you know what I mean? And, or
whatever, for whatever reason, uh, it gets right up to the wire where they're delivering scripts like
the day before people are, you know, shooting.
And that sounds horrible. Like we, we try very hard to stay way ahead of it so that there's time to
have conversations and. And, and to fix things, uh, where it's not like all down to the wire. Cause
that, that just, yeah, creates that level of stress, which makes it hard to work through. It's hard to
play, you know, it's, it's hard to play violin while the Titanic sinking, you know, like that is not an
easy thing to do.
Stacy: There's got to be like that sweet spot, right, where your deadlines, uh, inspire you and
motivate you. But if you get too close to that deadline or you have too many of those, it's one
thing if you have to write a cool half page scene with a great speech and that's all you've got to
rewrite. It's another thing if you've got a deadline and you've got like eight of those, you know,
and you don't know how episode 10 is going to end.
You don't even know what characters are going to be in it. That's a different kind of, so how it's.
It's a, it's a fine line. You want your deadlines to motivate and inspire you, but not have so many
that you feel like throwing up, um, from stress.
John: Yeah, that's, yeah, that's well said.
Stacy: Getting up early is a good
John: technique.
Yeah, getting up early. I gotta say working out like Uh, working out at noon, like, I find, like, if I
get up early and I, you know, work all morning and then I do a workout at noon, I almost feel like
I'm waking up all over again. I'm fresh all over again for the second half of the day. Uh, and if I
don't do that, I, you know, I have, you know, eh, three, four good hours in the morning and then I
sort of peter out.
Um. Right, right, right. But if I, if I'm willing to do a workout. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, that,
that can be a great way. Like, You know, sometimes resistance comes from not being clear what
the scene should be. And in those circumstances, often it's really helpful, uh, to talk it through
and, you know, just keeping mindful of like done is better than perfect, you know, getting it done
is better than getting it perfect.

And no matter what, there's going to be more rewrites, there's going to be more shots at it. Um, I
remember our first. Show that drew and I were just like running on our own like we'd work on the
script give it to each other do rewrites Give it back give it back Like we'd create we created like
five extra drafts unlike every draft just by going back and forth trying to get every script perfect
along the way and and season two we'd sort of trusted the process more and would just take be
very specific about when we And we took our, you know, our licks at it and it was a fraction of
the amount of work and it, the scripts were even better as a result in season two, I thought.
Oh, that's great. So, yeah, it's, you know, just getting it done, keeping it
Stacy: moving. You mentioned craft before, um, when you were saying clarity, like what is the
scene? What should the scene be? I think the more craft a person has and, you know, if they
are analytical. It can be helpful to almost go through a checklist to not write like a robot.
You know, um, what's the Mike Nichols thing? Every scene is a negotiation, a seduction or a, or
a fight. Yeah. I don't think that's always the true. Sometimes it's just hilarious banter among
friends, you know, but if you have a scene, that's a problem child. And it just, they, you know,
studio just keeps wanting you to rewrite it again and again.
Nobody's happy with it. It's got problems. That can be a good thing of going like, maybe it's just
fat and boring. Maybe if I just turn it into a negotiation, a fight or a seduction, maybe that will
help, you know, or things like maybe some of the characters are just talking too long. Maybe,
maybe I'm entering the scene at the wrong place and I should enter it.
a little further down, you know, instead of like, instead of being like, good morning. Well, good
morning to you too. Full pot of coffee. Yeah, betcha. Maybe you get rid of all that shit and just
enter deeper. What are some other like go to craft things? Or maybe
John: just cut the scene. You know, consider cutting the scene.
If you're getting a lot of notes on a scene repeatedly, there's a good chance you're hanging on to
that scene because there's something about it. Like, Oh, but I really like that one line the
character says it. It's such a funny line and or whatever there might be some something that's
blinding you to like, Oh, the scene doesn't fit.
Just kill it. You know,
Stacy: I hate cutting scenes so much that even hearing you say that I'm like, Oh, you can't cut
the scene. I'm like, Oh, this is a theorem. There's literally no. scene. All I've got is the coffee pot
banter, and I'm like, you're going to cut the coffee pot banter? How's the audience going to know
if the coffee's fresh?
You know, I hate cutting scenes. So stupid. I know you're just going to cut them anyway.
John: Of you and me and Drew, like, I tend to be like, let's change everything. Let's change it
all. Like every day, you know, and you tend to be like, let's keep it all the same. And Drew, Drew
sort of toggles back and forth, you know, we're like the, you know, the.
You know, Hindu trinity of writing, you know,
Stacy: John Shiva, the destroyer. I have this really bad habit of you're in the room, right? And
people are throwing, everybody's really talented. Everybody's throwing out, you know, you know,
the scene has to end with one. She looks him in the eye and she says something that just cuts
him to the core.
And people are throwing out their ideas and there are great lines all over the place. I had this
terrible habit of trying to build scenes. In such a way that I can stuff in as many of those lines as

possible, you know, which is, guess what a scene does not need? A scene does not actually
need three or four mic drop moments.
That's just insane. You know, but I'll do, you know, and the more I have those, the more I have
like the mic drop, great line scenes where I build the scene around the line. Those things get cut
to shit. They either get cut completely or the showrunner is like, I'll just take this. Fix this by
making it an actual scene.
Yeah.
John: I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard not to get, you know, uh, drawn in by shiny, you know,
shine like, Oh my God, there's these five great moments that no one will ever see. And, and, you
know, I think Drew and I, we came up with this adage years ago of like the quality of your
finished movie or show. Is directly related to the quality of the scenes you're willing to kill to
make it great and, you know, we, some of the best scenes we've ever written are on the cutting
room floor or, you know, we're cut out of scripts and, um,
Stacy: Ugh, that pains me.
I know it shouldn't, but it does.
John: But that's part of what It needs it's part of what it demands like the to get the momentum
to get the spirit of the script Right, like I don't know just because some scene is great doesn't
mean it fits and when it doesn't fit you know, even if it's great has to go and yeah, just getting
back to the the resistance of it all like Knowing that a script in television is a constantly changing
Uh, blueprint, you know, it's like, I feel like scripts in television are just constantly changing.
It's a new rewrite on a script every five days and, and just over and over and over and over. And
sometimes it's hard to show up with fresh eyes, you know, 10 drafts into it and In those
circumstances, it is worth just, just doing it, just getting in and it trains you to be, you know, like
from 8 a. m. or from, you know, sometimes 4 a.
m. to 11 a. m. Like I'm writing, there's nothing else. I'm just going to take it scene by scene and
just go through and do the notes, try things, try three different versions of things. You know,
sometimes I'd, uh, do 30 versions of one scene just to try and get it right. Like there's a big
speech and it has to be right.
And I just do it over and over and over until it feels good. And yeah.
Stacy: I always love that when, when a scene turns out really well and it flows effortlessly and
people assume you just, it's so organic, you just dash it off and actually you just churned it, you
just cranked it. That's a very satisfying feeling of going like, wow, you know, sometimes you can
just crank that shit out.
John: Yeah. And that, that's part of craft is you don't have to feel it to write it. You know what I
mean? Like there's days when I'm like, like, you know, tears in my eyes and I'm writing a scene
and it feels so good. And that doesn't actually mean it's going to be a better scene than the one I
wrote when I was just grinding it out.
You know, there's times when I, there's times when I grind it out and I compare the two scenes
and it might even be better than the one I was totally emotional personally while writing.
Stacy: It's nice to have both. You know, you wouldn't, as a writer, cause you wouldn't want to
live in either place forever. I have a trick I like.
I like journaling. I mean I journal anyway. I have. A zillion years, but sometimes just sitting down
and, and a lot of times my journal entries are about the writing I'm about to do or the writing I'm

procrastinating. You know? And that's like, I can't tell you how many journal entries I have that
are like, I'm sitting at this new desk chair and I just don't like how it fits and I think I'm going to
move my table against the wall because I don't like being in the center of the room, you know, I
do a lot of that.
But just, A journal is like, no, one's ever going to look at it. I'm not going to go back and look at
my sixth grade journal. I have occasionally, it's pretty fun. Um, but nobody's ever going to look at
it. It's just for me. It's just how I feel. And so I can have. It can be kind of nice when your first 5 or
10 minutes of writing of the day is just how you feel and then your fingers are moving and you're
like, Oh, this is easy.
Right. I'm good at this. This is fine. I like words. I like writing. It's fun. And then you can slip into
actually, you know, your job. That's great. Big fan of
John: that. Yeah. One of my favorite tricks, too, is the private first draft. You know, like, giving
myself that, and this I learned really early on, like, the idea of like, no, I'm, I'm gonna read it
down and adjust things before I show this to anyone.
Therefore, I can take risks, I can try things that don't work, and I'll read it later and I'll realize it
doesn't work, you know. When I'm writing, I'm not, I'm not playing offense and defense. I'm just
playing offense. I'm just, I can just, like, try things and wing it and try this and try that and, and
then get to the end and then I go back and then I play defense and I read.
And taking the defense out of the offense, I, I find, for myself, really, Really helps if I know I
have, you know, a pass of a script and nobody will see it but me. So if I write something that's
really stupid, it's fine. I can take it out later. As opposed to, um, feeling like everything I write, like
people are going to read it and think like to take that voice.
Yeah. Yeah. To take that voice out of my head. Like I found early on, that was the thing that
freed me up at 22 when I, I was like, Oh. I'm not showing this to anyone until I feel comfortable
showing it to people. And that freed me in a way that I, I hadn't been
Stacy: before. I have a thought about that because, uh, John, I've noticed that you, a lot of
times do your initial writing right in final draft, you'll like open up final draft and you'll just start
cranking.
Right. Whereas I'm, I mean, I would be like opening up final draft is like, you know, like by then I
have done so many voice memos. I've written so many notes to myself, so many docs, I have a
piece of advice for people and it took me 15 years to come up with this very simple piece of
advice, but are this very simple technique.
If people are more like me and they prefer to have a lot of notes and a lot of ideas before they
go to draft. I have learned to put it in one. I have something, I'll have a new project and I'll call it
Megadoc, you know, let's call it, you know, Project X Megadoc. And I'll put every single note,
every idea, every voice memo in it.
And sometimes I have one recently, I'm working on something where it's an 89 page Word
document. That's a lot, but you can go in there and use the find function to look for the thing, as
opposed to, I look at shit that I wrote 20 years ago. It's a disaster. I'll open up, uh, an idea and I
will have a hundred folders where it's got like one idea.
How am I ever going to find that thing? And then, and then if you are in the zone to
procrastinate, if you are feeling like I'm not really focused. You can easily waste a day, two days,
a week looking for that, like, I remember I had one great line, one great line, or I remember I
came up with a really fun character name.

Where could it be? Where could it be? You can waste so much time digging around for that little
crumb. Anyway, Megadoc, I highly recommend it. If you got a new project and you don't want to
go to final draft right away, just Put it in this massive document.
John: Yeah. I, I personally find it, like, for myself, like you said, like, I just get right into final, final
draft and, and I'll do brackets with, like, notes to myself, like, oh, I'm not sure what to do with
this.
And I'll, I'll just keep moving. I'll do the fastest, fast pass I can instead of trying to find the perfect
line and wind my way to it. You know what I mean? Like, I just, I just sort of riff, you know, as, as
fast and quick and dirty as I can. And then I have time to do it again and again and like, by not,
uh, overthinking it, uh, it gives me the chance to do more, more passes.
Yeah.
Stacy: What's the most, I'm not going to ask about television because that's its own separate
thing with, you know, studios and networks and production notes and all that. What's the most
final draft draft you've done of a single movie
John: script. Oh, gosh, I'm, I'm sure there's, there's one I read it so many times.
I, I bet I've written 10, 000 pages on that one to get a hundred pages down, like maybe more.
And I've, I easily have a hundred plus versions of that. Wow. And, and it's still not ready. Yeah,
yeah. It's kind of my, you know, when I go back to over and over, I'm like, I know this is going to
be great. That's just part of, you know, that one, that one is, uh, I don't know, kind of like the
thing I do.
For exercise. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I go back and play with that and,
you know, it taught me to rewrite it, you know, it's been good. But yeah, anyway, that's, yeah, no,
tons, like, and I, I love doing fast passes, lots of passes. Right. And I feel like that's
Stacy: 90 pages in it of just notes before I've opened up anything.
And you've skipped that and you go to final draft. But you're potentially gonna do 80, 90, 100
drafts of something, you know?
John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah, totally. Like, I, I like, you know, I, I have more of an
improvisational, uh, repetitive style and you tend to be a lot more thoughtful and, uh, focused
ahead of, you pre think things and I tend to like, be like, I'll try a little of this and a little of that
and then do that over and over enough times and find the shape as it goes and neither right or
wrong, you
Stacy: know.
Yeah, correct. You also write with music. I write without music. I feel like, I feel like the writers I
really admire, and the people who can really churn it out fast, people who write a lot and who
write well, they tend to play music. You know, you hear about Shonda Rhimes with her
headphones on blasting music, or Stephen King cranking the rock and roll, and I'm like, I wish I
could do that, but honestly, It's very rare.
The only time I ever played music while writing was when I was copywriting for the internet. And
I would play this like terrible, like massage, almost trance music. I put on my cap that I got from
In N Out Burger and I wrote, I wrote thinking cap on it and marker. And I'd put it on and the desk
was at the end, it was in the bedroom, right?
So I'd get out of bed. I Basically be like, I hate my life, brush my teeth, put on my thinking cap,
put on my carpal tunnel gloves, sit at the desk at the foot of the bed, put on some sort of trancy,

like, meditation music, just so I could basically like, Disassociate and float above my body while
I wrote emu oil.
Chapstick emu oil, lip balms are as as soothing as they are. Nourishing . Emu oil is the oilies
emu oil, you know, just all that keyword. Search engine optimization. Oh my God. I'm so glad I
don't do that anymore. Oh
John: my God. Yeah. Where.
Stacy: Yeah. The things I used to do for a hundred dollars a
John: day. Yeah. So, and, and, you know, I love having music, like it keeps the energy flowing
and I'll sort of write a little, walk around a little and then write a little more.
Like I, I try to keep my energy high. I find that really helps me, uh, just keep going. Um, and, uh,
yeah, and there's, yeah, lots of ways to do it. But I think, you know, so often that craft muscle,
just, you know, having that, you know, section of the day. That you don't do anything but right
keeps it so that you're actually doing the work and you're doing the writing and it's easy.
It's almost like working out. It's, you know, it's very hard to find 20 minutes a day to work out, you
know, unless that's a priority and you create the space for it and you have a zone where you're
gonna gonna do it no matter what. And it's same
Stacy: with writing. Fail to plan, plan to fail. Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Actionable tip, tip of the week, you know, if you're getting stuck, uh, and you're having a hard
time, talk to somebody you trust. You know, if you're, you know, doing this on your own, like, you
know, find a writer's group or someone, you know, someone you trust creatively enough to, you
know, talk script ideas or talk through scenes with, you know, Stacey and I, like in our early days
would walk, you know, miles a day just talking through script ideas and, uh,
Stacy: I love me a good walk and talk.
I like it on screen. I like it in real life.
John: Yeah, yeah, we do that all the time whenever we're stuck and, you know, or try gamifying
it with like sand timers or like, I'll do this and then I can go do that, um, Rewards.
Stacy: Yeah. Rewards like. Times a day you do things, uh, most important question, journaling.
Yeah.
Lots
John: of delicious coffee. Yeah. Coffee. Yeah. I tend to lean on that too much. Um, but yeah, if
you like our show, please, Oh,
Stacy: sorry. I'm sorry. I just have one more, which is also choose your projects wisely too,
because, you know, no matter how fast you do it, no matter how well you do it, writing does take
time and if you're say working on a spec script.
Uh, whether it's a pilot or a film, you are, if you're doing it right, you are going to be with it for a
long time. You are going to be with it for a long time. So choose the projects wisely.
John: Yeah. And choose your partners wisely. You know, if you can, like if you're working with
people who demoralize you. Um, it can be really hard, you know, and part of the resistance is

just pushing through that too.
And, you know, getting to the next job, if, if that's part of the problem, you know, get to the next
job, like keep push through. Um, so if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to
subscribe and rate us wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend that all really
helps us find our audience.
Thank you. We appreciate it. We're happy you're here.
Stacy: So true.