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Stacy: 1, 2, 3, 4. It's time to dip your toe into the show. They call the showrunner show. The time
has come at last to queue up our podcast. It's called The Showrunner Show. The Showrunner
Show. The showrunner show.
John: Hey, that was a good one. I like,
Stacy: Thanks. Thanks so much. I felt pretty good today.

John: Well, welcome to the Show Runner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect
of the job of show running. For anyone who works in tv, who wants to work in TV or just wants to
know how it's all made, I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: And I'm Stacy Saboski. Thank you so much for joining us for number four in our pitch
series.
John: Yeah, this week we're talking about five pitch potholes to avoid or explain and shore up.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: a number of things that make your pitch potentially less sellable, and it's just worth
knowing that as you go into it, so that you can, push against it or have some countering, you
know, ability to, to make sure that those don't derail your pitch.
Stacy: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Even just calling it out and being like, we know this is, you know.
Yeah.
John: Yeah, totally. Like, you know, like red flags, you know, what are the red flags, uh, buyers
are, you know, looking for and would make it too easy to say no. And, uh, and then how do you
shore up those things? So, not to say,
Stacy: Oh,
John: never sell with any of these, uh, but they're just things to look out for.
Stacy: Number one, a red flag tool gap for to avoid if you can. Period. If it is a period piece,
obviously TV these days is filled with period pieces, but they are very expensive and they're
often done by, uh, people with tremendous clout. You know, like, uh, Shonda Rhimes or Ryan
Murphy.
Um, you know, if you're more of a newbie, maybe you wanna avoid those expensive period
pieces.
John: Yeah. And even for, you know, like you see there's a show Buccaneers coming out, like
all their artwork looks very modern. Like it takes a moment to go Wait, does that period, so, so I
think period piece is, you know, a couple things that buyers are worried about and one is
expense. Um, and one is, uh, relatability.
Like
Stacy: Hmm.

John: you know, it's, there's a wide held belief that, the more current a show is or the more you
know, present day it is, the more audiences will relate to it.
Stacy: Mm
John: uh, people will show up to watch the show, whereas period pieces, Are just harder to sell
to audiences too. So I think that's a part of it.
So it's, it's harder to make and harder to sell and like, and even if you're, you know, like the idea
is like, you know, you know, and Buccaneers is a good example. Like, okay, it's period, but it
feels very modern. Like the, you know, poster of that, like, everyone's like sitting and hanging
out in a very moderate, like, they're not.
Stacy: Yeah,
John: you know, prim and proper, like you think of as a period piece, you know,
Stacy: I think a lot of period is being done that way. Anachronistic, is that
the word? Anachronistic, like the great. Uh, Bridgeton, uh, the one you just mentioned, sorry, the
name escapes me, but I feel like that's become kind of a, a hot thing, maybe like a Sophia
Coppola thing to do to make it anachronistic.
John: yeah. There was a, you know, a movie, a Knight's Tale, and they played, you know, a
bunch of, like, I remember way back then they were doing music from, you know, queen and,
you know, stuff like that where, you know, ways to, how do you make a period piece feel, like a
present day, you know, event. And, you might be like, oh, you know, my, my movie or my show
is set in, uh, 2001. That's not really period piece because you know, but it is like
Stacy: Right.
John: that is not currently, like right now, you could, you know, your characters, your actors, you
know, the wardrobe department could go get closed right off the shelf, you know, uh, at the mall
today and bring it to set. And actors could wear those.
And
Stacy: Hmm.
John: happened to be on the street, like, you know, when we did a. The Waco series, like you
can't just shoot like a parking lot full of cars. You know what I mean? Like we had to put all those
cars in the parking lot and make sure that it
Stacy: Yeah.
No Teslas, no PT Cruisers.
John: Yeah, totally. Totally. It's like,
Stacy: PT Cruiser.
John: it creates a level of complexity That can just be hard. And that's not to say obviously that
you know that no period can work. You just
Stacy: Yeah.

John: know that that may be a question you get in the room that may be, you know, um, part of
it, like, you know, when we did Waco, we're like, okay, yes, it's set in the nineties, but you know.
You won't go into this and look at it and be like, wow, this, we're not gonna play. The period that
we kept saying we're not gonna play the period, we're not putting everyone in like, eighties
sweaters and, you know what I mean? We're not, we're not gonna make them. And you know,
there was some of that, some of that came through.
Steve Schneider had, you know, um, you know, Paul Spark's character had a lot of, uh,
Stacy: Cosby Sweaters,
John: Cosby sweaters and uh, um, uh, yeah, he would quip like I just put on whatever they give
me. I just wear it, you know?
Stacy: Well, I think that's why this episode is called Five Pitch Potholes to avoid or explain.
John: mm-Hmm.
Stacy: here's the thing, like think about it, your thing's period. Is there a good reason it's period.
If there's not just then don't even make it, period. But if there is a good reason, that should be a
big, hot, important point of your pitch.
Like lately, uh, my daughter and I have been gobbling up 10 15. It's, and that's exactly what you
were talking about, John. It's period, but it's period from like. 15 years ago, you know what I
mean? So it's, it's, but it's still period. But why, because that's the age those 30 year olds were,
you know, it's being, it's 30 year olds playing 13 year olds.
That was the era. They were 13 years old in, and their, and their audience is going to be filled
with 30 year olds who remember all the stuff. I don't remember. 'cause that was not my age
group of like, oh my God, it's the a OL chat room. Remember? Ha ha. It's crazy. You know what I
mean? It's, it's, but I'm sure that was part of their pitch of like,
John: Oh
Stacy: this is why it, this is why it's not current day.
This is why it's so much funnier and better doing it, period. So I guess what we're trying to say
is. You can do, period. If you have a damn good reason to do it, and if you have a damn good
reason to do it, that should be a big part of your pitch.
John: Yeah, that's really well said. And you know, and just as you're looking at your own project
there, there might be like, well, it's an adaptation of book that was written in the 18 hundreds,
therefore I'm setting it like, but is it, you know, would it be possible to modernize that?
Would it be possible to set it in the present day, like just maybe taking an hour and looking like if
you are. If you're self-inflicting the, uh, period nature of your project, just maybe look at like what
would happen, you know, as a, as a mental experiment.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: would happen if I set it in the present day?
And if it doesn't work, then at least you have a, you know, maybe a better answer for why it has
to be set in that era.

Stacy: Love it.
John: Number two, uh, foreign, like something that's set in a foreign land, in a, you know, far
away place. Like, you know, and I'd say again, sort of the same rules as period.
It's not. Stuff like you can just shoot anywhere. You know, it's not like there's, there's certain, you
know, hubs of, uh, production where there's tax incentives and stuff where you can shoot and,
you know, those tend to be, you know, Canada, Atlanta, Santa Fe, you know, like, or New
Mexico. Like,
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: um, they tend to be.
you know, there is South Africa, you know, as a tax incentive place, but that's a really hard place
to get actors in and out of, to get execs in and out of to, you know, all this stuff. And so if you're
going to, Set this in a foreign place, uh, with foreign languages. Like, it just makes things more
difficult.
And it's not to say, you know, it's undoable, um, especially if there's a really great reason for it.
and there is, you know, on the flip side of that, like, if it is a, Jack Ryan series or something like
the foreign nature of it is part of what makes it feel, or, you know, James Bond movies.
Part of what makes them feel so, you know, exciting is this glamorous foreign quality of a lot.
Like to go to Paris and Vienna and all these beautiful places in that, Move your show.
Stacy: Right,
John: that's very alluring, but that's very expensive too. And what those shows are selling is
how big and glamorous they are.
Stacy: right. Emily in Paris. Selling Paris, you know, and it's, uh, delicious and delightful. Uh, so
you can do it, but just like with period, it's gotta be for a damn good reason.
John: Yeah. Well said. number three, expense. Like If you have a show that's like, uh, sci-fi,
epic, know, this is gonna be Star Wars. But for tv, you know, this is, uh, guess they, they're doing
Star Wars, but for tv, but they're, those are expensive. Sh those are not cheap shows.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, something that's set on Mars, something that's, needs tons of visual effects or
is, you know, in some way.
Going to be incredibly expensive. Um, that that is something, uh, you know, people will have
some concern over. And there may be clever ways around some of that. one of our movies we
had this, uh, where a helicopter crashes on a rooftop and. And people kept flagging that like,
well, you can't afford that on this budget.
And we're like, yeah, yeah, but we're not gonna see every angle of it. We're gonna be with our
lead characters and we're gonna see it like through things. which will make it, you know, we're
not doing the Michael Bay version of this. We're doing a, like a subjective point of view version
of
Stacy: Right.
John: And it'll be,

Stacy: Eventually there's gonna be a helicopter just on its side and a swishy camera, you
know?
John: Yeah, totally. And, and that worked. It was right, but it, we had to have that conversation a
hundred times
Stacy: Yeah.
John: and, uh, and it was, and still people kind of half believed us.
Stacy: Right.
John: so, you know, that's, something to just be aware of.
Stacy: this is an interesting one where I really, I don't have much to say on this topic because I
have so much less production experience than you, but you just throw out like a few things that
are expensive. CGI. So you don't wanna have a bunch of dinosaurs, you don't wanna have a
bunch of fighter planes.
So like CGI type things. What else?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Water.
John: Yeah. water, if you're gonna set your show like it's Jaws, the television series, like that's
gonna be a hard thing. Like you're gonna need water rigs and, you know, boat rigs and
everyone's gonna get seasick and it's gonna slow things down. Like, and just anytime you get
out on the water, super expensive.
Like, let's say you're doing a show and you're like. the whole city is flooded. You know, we read
a for a, a Katrina, hurricane Katrina thing a while back. It was a great script, but it was like,
you're taking a boat through city like is going to be in Incredi, that is a hundred million dollar plus
drama.
You
Stacy: mm
John: Like that is gonna be a real uphill battle to get made, uh,
Stacy: When a, a network could fill their slate with, like, couldn't we just do something where
there's like a therapy office and a, you know.
John: Yeah, totally. The, the cheapest thing is two people sitting and talking,
Stacy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: have two people at a table having lunch, talking
Stacy: Let's do that
John: that is the cheapest thing. You know, two people like on a boat in a, you know, outer
space in, you know, zero gravity.
Stacy: Yeah.

John: just anything, um. like, something that the predicate like that absolutely needs, like, like
every scene has rain in it and it doesn't work if it's not raining the entire, like,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: something set a hundred percent at night.
Stacy: Yeah. Unless it's in, I was thinking the exact same thing. Unless it's on a lot, unless
you've got it, you know, and unless you're shooting it like a, what do they call that? Not on
location, but. On a set, on a lot
closed set or whatever.
John: Yeah. Like, you know, lots of kids. Like, if you're like, okay, this is a show about a bunch
of, it's a kindergarten full of kids in space, zero gravity set. You know what I mean? Like, and
then transition there underwater. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, it's like you're just, uh, um,
Stacy: That show actually sounds awesome. A boy in his dinosaur,
John: Yeah, totally like that, you know, and those things can be done, but you just may have to
think through they could be done in,
Stacy: right?
John: won't destroy like budgets. Because like wants to sign up for a fiasco, for
Stacy: Yeah.
John: uns shootable in that
Stacy: Yeah. Uh, number four for five pitch potholes to avoid or explain unhelpful attachments.
This is the other side of the coin from last week's episode when we talked about how helpful
attachments can, uh, can help your pitch. This is the flip side of the coin.
John: Without naming names. Somebody who's been canceled for good reasons. Like if you're
like, oh, this person's been canceled for good re like, and they're not doing anything, and they
signed up to do my show. Like, you, you, you can go around pitching that show and people will
be like, dude, what are you doing?
Like, why, why do you have that person attached?
Stacy: I think about that all the time, but it gives me the giggles of like. It's Woody Allen directing
Kevin Space. You, I'm like
Woody.
John: I know, I know. It's, and you know, and you could have connection, have feelings about,
you know, these people on one side or another, you know what I mean? But like a, a. Pure
marketing standpoint, just looking at it through a marketing lens, which
Stacy: a business lens. yeah,
John: business lens, A pretty cold lens to look at it through.
Um, some of those, and you know, sometimes it's, uh. You know, people, uh, a studio network
might have a personal, you know, beef with and you

Stacy: Yes.
John: oh, you know, like, this network will never buy something from that studio. Like, we've
Stacy: Ah,
John: where we're like, we bringing a pitch out. We're like, huh, why won't Netflix even hear the
pitch that it's like, oh, because.
They hate that studio
Stacy: Ah,
John: they've
Stacy: really?
John: you know?
So
Stacy: Oh,
John: like, even having a, you know, certain studios at or, um, this studio and this network,
because they're owned by rival entities can never make a deal. They will never be
Stacy: ah.
John: make a deal between the two of 'em, and therefore they won't hear your pitch.
So drew and I once were, um. You know, we were like, kind of like helping out with something.
There was a showrunner. We went out to lunch with this guy and he was like, oh, you know, just,
yeah, don't Google my name because, you know, it's like all lies. We're like, what?
You know? So we went home, immediately Googled his name. and It was like fired for toxic, you
know, practices and, and we're like, oh, this is
Stacy: yikes.
John: this will never sell. You know, with that. Showrunner at, you know what I mean?
Stacy: Right.
John: and we're like, we can spend our time better elsewhere. You know, this, this is a, you
know, a winning, not a winning play because person had, least according to the press, uh, you
know, kind of torched their own goodwill.
Stacy: Yeah. I would put that in the, uh, life's too short file, whether it's, you know,
John: yeah.
Stacy: or cast or, you know what, there are a lot of talented showrunners out there. There are a
lot of talented producers. There are a lot of talented casts You don't have to work with somebody
who is notoriously unpleasant or toxic.
John: Yeah, that's, I, I, that's really well said. Like that, know, over and over Drew and I have,
you know, um, when we found ourselves working with people who aren't aligned with us, like in

the way we deal with people, you know what I mean? Uh. are cruel or, um, you know, there's
some like, you know, kind of cruel, kind of sadistic people out there.
And, and it's good to stay away from them.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: And, uh, yeah. And there's, to your point, there's wonderful human beings. I. Who are
very famous actors, and there are wonderful human beings who are, you know, like producers
and directors and, you know, straight across the board. Like we've, you know, been very blessed
to work with like really, really wonderful people.
Um, but really just, it takes one, it takes
Stacy: Hmm.
John: who's showing up um, to really make everyone's, you know, just. Life a little less happy.
And, uh, especially with the TV series, like could go for 10 years, you know, it's, yeah. The, the
Life's Too Short is a very important one for your own, for your own sake, especially.
Stacy: I have, uh, I have one to, to add for this category of unhelpful attachments. And this is a,
this is a, a note geared for, uh, young writers, new writers. Um, I had the experience several
times, uh, in my early writing career. Attaching myself with, Producers or people who had
worked in production and were people who were segueing into being producers who wanted to
become producers, uh, but weren't yet.
And, and I did this like two or three times where I got together with people. We hashed things
out, we brainstormed, we pitched something, they said, that sounds great. Do that. I went off, I
wrote sometimes something, sometimes with a partner. I think most of these were with partners,
wrote comedy stuff with partners, brought it back to these producers or these wannabe
producers and said, here it is.
Then they looked at me and said, great, who are we gonna shop it around to? I'm like, oh no,
that's, that's your job. That's why I attached myself to this project with you because I bring the
words, 'cause I wrote them and you bring. The connections because you're the producer. But
that is a conversation I should have had in a skillful, I don't know how you would say it skillfully,
but you know, basically the equivalent of like when somebody says, Hey, I think you're really
talented.
I love what you do. We should work on something together. These are my bonafides. I've been
whatever. I've been an assistant for this, showrunner, blah, blah, blah. I'm looking to get into
producing. Um, we should work on something together. Like you should have that conversation
early of like, awesome, that sounds great.
Like if we had a project like this, like who do you have connections to? Who could we go out to
with this? Like, I just, I wouldn't have even brought this up except that it happened to be so
many times of I didn't have that conversation.
John: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: wrote a project for someone specifically to that they sort of custom ordered like a
sandwich, which is not a thing I would've.
Been interested in, you know,
John: That's great. Number five, uh, is too topical or not topical enough. You know, something in
your story is too topical. Like, it's the topic every, like right now. Um, you know, drew and I, for

example, had, uh, like a couple years back we had some, an AI project and we were, you know,
developing that. Right now in this environment, like AI is what everybody's talking about, it feels
too topical to
Stacy: Mm.
John: this environment where, um, I am, I would guess there's 50 AI projects, um, being pitched
right now and you know, I'm sure some of 'em are great and I'm sure you know. A couple of
them will go become series and be amazing and Everett will be like, well of course, like show
happened in this moment because it's AI and it's such a topical topic.
Um, but ideally, you know, be the show that was getting made. A year or two ago like timed that
perfectly.
Stacy: Mm.
John: as opposed to trying to follow a trend like, well, everybody's talking about this in the news
right now. Um, of course this is gonna be a hit, you know, hit show. And, uh, not to chase the
thing.
Stacy: If you have a representative, if you have an agent or manager, I feel like this is a good
thing to run past them, to be like, Hey. I'm thinking about what's right next. I'm kicking around
this idea. What do you think? Are people hearing stuff like that now or are they not? I, I think
that's a good one to run past them.
John: people who know, like, yeah, are there a lot of people selling this kind of thing and trying
to stay. Out of competition. Like you don't wanna, like in my mind, you know, you don't wanna be
one of many people pitching on the same kind of thing. want something that differentiates you
and if you're gonna be pitching an AI thing, AI can't be the point. know what I mean? Right now
Stacy: Yeah, that's well said.
John: like, that can't be the, the point is ai, it's gonna change everything. Like, that can't be the
point. You
Stacy: Yeah.
John: is it's, you know, I know applies to this, uh, one very thin, you know, sliver of the world,
you know, and, and really developing something deep on that level.
Stacy: Mm.
John: So yeah, so not too topical, not top, you know, not topical enough. I'd say something like,

Stacy: You're.
John: yeah, doing, uh, know, it's a, Duke's a hazard, you know, reboot or, you know what I
mean? Like, maybe that'd be awesome. Maybe, maybe that just feels like a 1970s, you know,
you know, thing of the past or, or whatever.
I, I'm just using that as a, random example, but something that feels. that is a little passe that is
like, doesn't have a connection to, we're telling this, the ancient Greek story of this. Like, okay,
but why is that relevant to us today?
Stacy: Mm.

John: and I, I think having some, if it's something that's not topical, To have a reason that that
story needs to be told today.
And what is, how is it top, like, how is it related to what's happening in the world today? And
Stacy: Yeah.
John: um, you know,
Stacy: Right.
John: an example, like. That really started the division between government and population and
know, there's a direct line between the events of Waco and the January 6th, uh, storming the
Capitol.
There's a direct link between those two things and you know, have like drew that link between
those things as we went, and I think that's what makes it. Topical and you know, important to tell
today. Otherwise, it's just a 1990 story that would seem less relevant.
Stacy: Number six, this is a bonus 'cause we promised you five, but you know what? People
were giving you seven. Number six is a limited series. Yes, there are plenty of limited series out
there. God knows we're developing one ourselves right now and have done them in the past as
well.
They do happen, they do sell, but they just, uh, aren't a lot of bang for your buck money-wise
with all of that investment in, you know, casting and sets and costumes and all that. So, uh, if
you can't, it's better to go out and try to sell a series that could have legs and run for three, four,
or five seasons than to try to sell a limited series.
John: Yeah. And you know, to your point too, sta like, it's part of it too is it's marketing. Like if a,
if a network is gonna market a series, but they only get one season out of it, no. Like
amortization of that marketing spend, you know,
Stacy: Mm
John: there's, you don't get a, the wind at your back for seasons two and three in, in success.
Um, it's, it's a deadlift from the start of the season to, you know, and you get one season out of
it. And I think the marketing spend is a huge part of that too.
Stacy: Interesting.
John: but like, you know, one thing with the Hulu series, you know, we were told. You know,
limiteds aren't selling, you know, I, I think a lot of people who had limiteds either tried to convert
them into ongoing or just waited, um, or just killed them.
And, um, Stacy, you did something really interesting. You had a, like, you know, in success we
could do this. You know, we could create an ongoing based on this, you know, with this idea.
Stacy: I think John right now is quoting the pitch itself. I think what he's saying is that I, they said
Uhoh, oh no, God, we're going out and selling a limited, but limiteds are dead. What do we do?
And so we just added a paragraph that was basically like something we said in the pitch saying,
look, we think this story is perfect for a limited series.
However, if you were interested in talking about how this could work as an ongoing, we actually
have a lot of great ideas. To that end, uh, where we would lean a little bit more in this direction. I
actually don't even know we actually came up with a cool idea, but I think in the pitch, I don't

even think what we said, what the, the idea was like, the true story is a 1996 double homicide at
the Iowa State Fair.
So what we came up with was you could find interesting crimes that happened at different fairs
or state fairs or carnivals and zero in on different ones, and take some of your cast of
characters. With you, right? Because the concessionaires and the carnies and stuff, they travel
from place to place, so you could take some of your cast and travel 'em with you.
I don't even, and so that was our idea, right, of like, okay, if somebody wanted to be ongoing
there, we could do that. I don't even think we said that in the pitch. I think we just teased it out
and that way, because your pitch is always gonna be followed with a question and answer
session.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: So we just threw it out there.
And that way if we happened to be pitching to somebody who had recently gotten a mandate
from their bosses saying, no limited series, but they liked what we were selling,
John: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: were cordially invited to ask us about it and the questions and answers, and you know
what? They never did. We had
John: And we had a good answer for it.
Stacy: a good answer.
John: if they, did, and you know, we could build that out. So we had thought through, you know,
in Waco, you know, in success we'd love to do a, you know, season two of, you know, And in
fact, like we actually got to do that season two. so like there is a, there is a world in which, uh,
you know, you're limited will become an ongoing or an anthology or, you know,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: other, uh, version of that.
But Having thought through that question, just so you don't get a know, like, Nope, it can only be
limited. Like if
Stacy: Right.
John: some way of, in success, in success, how could they make use of the marketing money
they've already spent?
having something to say on that front could really be helpful. And then number seven, uh, too
much detail. You know, and this is counterintuitive, but let's say you've figured out the entire, you
know, five seasons of this show,
Stacy: Mm.
John: and you're gonna pitch every character's arc from the start of the five seasons to the end
of the five seasons. You have 20 characters, you're pitching all their stories.
You know, like your pitch is two hours long and, it just never seems to stop. Um. Everyone's
eyes are gonna glaze over

Stacy: Yeah.
John: like, there's a point at which there's so much detail that it's hard to find the threads within
it. Like, okay, but what is this about? What is
Stacy: Exactly. Exactly.
John: this show gonna feel like?
What's this show gonna, you know what I mean? What's the big idea? What the show, what's
the, like, am I listening for? I think that, you know, really, uh. Selling the premise, not how much
work you've put in.
Stacy: Yes. And like, oh, I know this backwards and forwards. I've, I've got every detail worked
out. Like no one caress. Like, it's just gonna confuse the point of what you just said. John, what
is this a. About. And I think one of the simplest ways to put it, like we were talking with Rich Fox,
we had that, uh, those couple of episodes of our podcast where we spoke with Editor Rich Fox
and he was saying, you know, when you have a problem episode, you sometimes have to go
back and go, okay, what is this about?
There are so many subplots, they're all treated equally. Let's go back to the basics of what is this
episode about? I think it's the same for a show with a pitch of, uh. Especially if something is an
ensemble or it has a lot of strong characters, you should not go into all the details about it. To, to
go back to, uh, what we were talking about last time, the good wife, it's got a million great
characters, right?
One, and you could go on and on about character number 11 on the call sheets backstory, but
you don't want to because what it's about. The good Wife. It's about her and her journey. And I
think just going to that, back to that basic, in the pitch of saying it's about this main character or
perhaps it's about these two main characters and what they go through.
And yes, of course you'll wanna hint at and talk about the other supporting characters, but just in
the pitch, never forget that they are supporting. There should be less detail about them and you
should. Invoke their name less often as you're describing the episodes, the arc, the, you know,
like for, like, I bet I, I obviously wasn't there for the succession pitch, but I'm imagining, you
know, they could have talked about all the siblings in great detail, but I'm guessing the pitch
mostly focused on Logan and Kendall,
John: Yeah,
Stacy: right.
John: yeah.
Stacy: that's what I would do. That's how I'd pitch it. Otherwise, it's gonna be too confusing.
John: Yeah, totally. And or you know, and the other siblings, well, you know what I mean? But
yeah, like if they got into the deep, like, and these are the problems that the family will face and
these are the, like, yeah. I could see in a succession that, yeah, there, there's a point at which
detail becomes an enemy.
And
Stacy: sure.

John: more things for them to go like, oh, I don't like that. You know, let's
Stacy: Yes. Yes.
John: don't get your show passed on for the seventh lead characters
Stacy: Yes.
John: You know what I
Stacy: Right, right, right. More stuff for them listening to go like, eh, I don't like that. You know?
Um, it's also muddy.
It also, I think, and this is something we've talked a lot about in pitches, uh. TV is a collaborative
medium. You are pitching to people who are going to wanna collaborate with you.
So if you're trying to impress them by showing them, like, I have thought at everything. There's
no detail I haven't already imagined and decided on, well, then there's no room for them to play.
You know, like you can't impress them by being like, no, this is exactly what it is. I, I've got it in
my head. I don't need your help.
Just listen to me talk about, you know, character number twelve's, uh, romantic relationship.
Like, no, that's not gonna work
John: that's exactly right. so yeah, in summary, you know, keeping this one lean and mean. In
summary, uh, you know, five pitch pothole, actually seven pitch potholes to avoid or explain. Um,
if your show is a period piece.
Stacy: your show is foreign set in a foreign land.
John: if your show is going to be re very expensive to shoot.
Stacy: If your show has unhelpful attachments, people who have been canceled or, or
problematic, or just a big old pain in the butt.
John: that they have a personal beef with,
if it's too topical or not topical enough. I.
Stacy: If it's a limited series.
John: Yeah, and if your pitch has too much detail or, I guess conversely not enough detail, like it
has to kind of have the right amount of, uh, details when you pitch it.
Stacy: Yeah. Well, you know what? I, I, yeah, I think that's a problem of going too broad. You
wanna go deep? Not broad.
John: Yeah, well said. Well said.
Stacy: All right. Fantastic. Hey, if you like our show. First of all, thank you. That's really nice of
you. Uh, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us wherever you get your
podcasts. And please share this with a friend.
We would love to expand a little. We do all this talking. We wanna, we want people listening. It'd
be super fun. And we're, we're across all sorts of platforms too. We're like on Instagram and I
don't know, what are we on

John: Yeah,
Stacy: YouTube? Yeah, just look at all the stuff. It's all fun. Hey, we appreciate you being here.
Thank you so much.
John: Thank you.
Stacy: Bye.
John: Bye.