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Stacy: Hey, Nick, do you do that thing where you do like looping, like that Andrew Bird thing?
Like if I sing something in the beginning, could you loop it to bring it back in the end? If you can,
that'd be amazing because here it is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run all night.
I'm gonna run all day. I'll run a TV show, so I get paid to play. This is the showrunner show.
gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
Hey, you know Oh, thank you so much. Actually, you know what? I did the thing. You don't have
to loop me like Andrew Bird 'cause I loop myself.
John: Well done. Well done. That's actually pretty catchy.
Stacy: Hey, thanks. Welcome to the Showrunner show, where every week we demystify. I love
that verb. I thought that was a really fun choice where every week we demystify some aspect of
the job of show running. It's for anyone who works in tv, who wants to work in TV or who just
wants to know how it's all made.
I'm Stacey Saboski.
John: I'm John Eric Dole, and we're so glad you're here.
So this week will be, uh, um, uh, week three of our pitch series. So this is, you know, five things
to, you know, make your pitch more sellable. It's not that your pitch will need all of these things
by any means, but each one of these things can help you, you know, just shift the odds, you
know, 5% more in your favor or, um, or more in some cases.
And, you know, just so we, we thought we'd lay some of these out and just discuss those.
Stacy: The first one is my favorite.
John: yeah, go ahead.
Stacy: Oh, good. Okay. Number one, a big idea. AKA, a cool idea. John and I went back and
forth on this one about whether to call it, he's like, let's call it a big idea. I'm like, no, but it's cool.
You want something like, like somebody explained that to us once. Um, oh, John was working
on a, a pitch.
John and Drew were working on a pitch where it was like a really cool thing. It was three young
scientists and they were fun and they were edgy and it was like flat liners. They were like, cool,
you know, and I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was, you know, fun brain implant
stuff. And I remember your reps at the time were really excited to go out and sell it for you.
And as they put it, they were like, look, this is a really, like, everybody wants to buy something
cool. This is really cool. 'cause they're young and they're good looking and they're a little edgy
and it's sciency and it's cool. Um, and no one is making that like, no, no writers are out there
selling something cool.
And that really landed for me of like, oh, that makes sense. So for me, when I hear something
like the big idea, I'm like, what is a big idea? What makes a big idea? But what makes a cool
idea? I, I, can wrap my head around that a little easier.

Thoughts?
John: Well, I, I think too, like the, the cool idea, you know, someone wants to explain to me like
these exact. Go to parties, they meet other execs, they meet other people outta the bus. Like
they want something they can brag about. Like, I have the new, this project, or, you know, we're
working on a project that's so cool.
We're wor, you know, it's this kind of a thing. So giving them the, uh, the party brag ability. You
know what I
Stacy: Yeah.
John: like whether that's working with cool people, whether that's working on cool projects, but
for me, the, the idea of the big idea is I'd say beyond it being cool. You know what I mean?
Like the idea, like, I remember when, you know, years ago when we did the Poughkeepsie
tapes, we could pitch that in one sentence. And it was, you know, our pitch at the time was, uh,
you know, the Poughkeepsie Tapes is a faux documentary on a serial killer's home movies. You
could just say that one sentence and just see anyone you've said that to would immediately like
lapse into, uh, you could see their eyes, you know, processing that and going, oh shit, that'll be
really scary.
That'll be really, you
Stacy: Yeah.
John: and having a, a real visceral reaction to the idea itself. And I think that
Stacy: That is fun. When you have a good idea and you pitch it and you can see that like people
blank out for just a second. And in my, in my opinion, what they're doing is they're going, they're
blanking out for just a second. 'cause they're going to the idea where the going to the place
where ideas come from
and they are writing it for you.
Do you know what I
mean? Like that's what makes it so cool the light comes on because they go, holy shit, because
they just blanked out for like one second. And in that one second they personally came up with
one or two or three scenes
for the thing you just pitched it. Like, I'm not gonna say it's easier, it writes itself, but it writes
itself enough that you can do an elevator pitch and you could have a blue sky session with the
person in the elevator before they reach their floor.
John: Yeah, that's it. That's it. You know, and I, I think
Stacy: So.
John: that, like, I mean, so much of the calculus from the buyer perspective is how, how would
this show cut through, you know, the market? There's
Stacy: Yeah.
John: things out there, like how, what makes this special, what makes this unique? What makes
this different from other shows with, without it being like crazy, like, oh, you know, you know, the

entire series is, uh, one shot of a person's close.
You know what I mean? There, there's a, the bad version of a big idea.
Stacy: Yeah,
John: but, you know, there, there might be a way that would work.
Stacy: So like a hook,
something sexy, something cool, something big.
John: Yeah, but I'd say something that lets it cut through something that you could see, like, you
know, when you look at the shows you watch, like what made you watch those shows?
You
Stacy: Mm
John: Uh, like I just, uh, watched, uh, I caught up to it pretty late hunting on Hill House it's like,
oh, it's, it's siblings dealing with the trauma of like a haunted house in their childhood. And that's
really interesting. That's
Stacy: mm.
John: interesting evocative hook. you know, I don't know how, you know, Flanagan, you know,
pitched it or, you know, um, but I assume that would've been part of, part of the pitch is that,
Stacy: The premise. Yeah.
John: yeah, the premise, like, and I've never seen something like that.
Stacy: Mm
John: never seen, you know, a haunted house show or movie handled in that way. And, uh, so
it, know, to me that's a big idea or. You know, we had a, a, religious crime family show we were
pitching and like, this is a, you know, crime family. This is a, a, you know, a show about, uh,
generational, civil war within this crime family.
Stacy: mm
John: imagine if it was a, you know, the Sopranos and, you know, Tony Soprano is being
overthrown by, know, aj, Chrissy, and Nick and, um, Meadow,
Stacy: mm.
John: if he was being overthrown by them, like what that show would be. And I haven't seen a
crime show like that. And, uh,
Stacy: Yeah,
John: know, so, so I think finding the, what makes this special, like how would they market this
like that, that's maybe another way of looking at it.
Or like, why would you watch this show? What, what about this show would make you go, oh, I
haven't seen that before.

Stacy: right. I think there are some things that will always sort of cut through, at least, at least in
my opinion, things like crime, uh, scary stuff, anything like thrilling or crime or, or, uh, things like
that. But then if you add in like a nice big dollop of family or relationships or depth,
that's pretty, I don't know,
I guess there, I guess.
John: I'd say even in those things though, like, you know, crime for example is one of the
hardest things to sell. Like,
Stacy: Oh really?
John: he's a, you know, homicide investigator who, you know, solves crimes. It's like, well, what,
what about that is interesting? You
Stacy: Hmm.
John: what, what, what's interesting about this homicide detective?
because crime works so well as a genre, we've seen so many variations of it, and there's so
many pitches of people pitching versions of the crime show we've all seen before, and there's a
lot of people pitching those. a lot of shows that have been made, you know, it's, it'd be hard to
pitch an NCIS or something like that and have someone go like, Ooh, that I've never seen that
before.
Um, you know, I still think those all need to cut through.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: if you see something like the killing cut through, like it was, that relationship between the
two of them was so special in that, and those
Stacy: Hmm.
John: were really rich and, you know, an interesting spin that we hadn't seen before.
#ERROR!
Stacy: this was really interesting.
John: Yeah. So strategic
Stacy: attachments might,
John: know, might be, uh, An actor could be a great strategic, you know, if you have a, a movie
star that you know is interested in this kind of thing and you're able to, you know, or a TV star
and, uh, able to get it in front of them and they, you know, sign on. that can be a huge, you
know, if it's the right kind of person, you know, if it's the right person for the project. there are,
you know, instances where that doesn't necessarily help.
Stacy: there are some instances I've, I've had personal experiences. I won't name any names
and we'll get to this in next week's episode, which is things to avoid in a pitch. But, you know,
sometimes like you can get a famous person attached. Uh, I had a friend who got a famous
person attached, very wonderful actor, and it turned out, uh, women didn't want to work with this
person, and it was for a romantic lead.

So that was actually an attachment, which seemed like one of those great, wow, this is really
gonna move the project along. And No, no. In fact, it was like, uh, like uhoh reverse chorus,
reverse chorus. Like
it can't be this person. So
John: But overall, overall I'd say like, you know, our season one Waco, to use that as an
example, uh, we had Mike Shannon and Taylor Kitch attached to that. And that really helped.
That really helped. You know, there was a, you know, there was a number of strikes against it as
a pitch. It was period, it was a limited series.
Like there was a lot of, you know, some things that were, you know, putting the thumb on the
scale of, you know, execs saying, no, it was an expensive show.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: but having two stars like that really, really helped.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: really, uh, know, really put it in a light and sort of showed that, you know, gave a sense of
the tone of it too.
Like it,
Stacy: Mm.
John: actors not just, you know, because of their, uh, uh, stardom or, you know, their value as a,
you know, movie stars. Um, but. you know, they're, you know, help cut through the marketing,
you know, they help make the trailers special.
Stacy: Right.
John: and,
Stacy: It's understood that it's gonna be a prestige piece
that, you know
Gives it that awardsy feel.
John: yeah. And someone like Taylor Kitsch like, tells you, this gonna be kind of fun.
You know what I mean?
Stacy: Yeah.
John: this, this isn't gonna just be, uh, don't know, like a
Stacy: It's not gonna be like homework.
Yeah,
John: exactly. And, and
Stacy: I was actually gonna joke about that earlier when we were talking about the big idea and,
uh, I didn't get a chance to, but I wanted to jump in and joke about like, it's about a broccoli

farmer, a homesteader going through menopause. Just like in terms of like the least cool, least
big idea.
But then I was gonna joke, uh, hold, see I'm going back to the whole joke in my mind that it's
starring Francis McDormand. You know what? Honestly, it was about a broccoli farming home
that started going through menopause, but you had Francis McDormand attached. You'd be like,
okay, yeah, I'll at least hear the pitch.
I mean,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: I don't know if I'll program it, but,
John: yeah, and the, uh, the idea sound, you know, at that point sounds so bad, but at least it
sounds original, you know what I mean? It sounds original. You're like, okay, it must be
something like, you know, when I heard the breaking bad pitch of like, it's a, you know, high
school chemistry teacher starts cooking meth.
I'm like, oh, that's a crazy idea, but could that be awesome? You know what I mean? Like,
Stacy: oh, really? Did that feel like a bad pitch to you? That sounds like a great pitch to me. Like
I feel like that's one that writes itself of like, oh, fish outta water High stakes.
John: Well, I think in retrospect I'm like, oh yeah, well, of course, you know, it seems like, and of
course, but it's like. Brian Cranson. Wait, the guy from Malcolm in the middle, the
Stacy: Mm
John: Malcolm in the middle with the back shaving and you know what I mean? Like, I was like,
that guy is a high school teacher cooking math.
Stacy: mm.
John: it, it was hard, like in the first, first time I heard someone mention that, you know, it
sounded quirky, if that makes sense.
Stacy: Oh, right, right.
John: didn't sound
Stacy: You thought it was gonna be like adorable.
John: Yeah. Or
Stacy: It's Zoe Dechanel as a meth dealer.
John: yeah, exactly. It had, like, I was, it was confusing, but I wanted to know more
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, that that was the kind of, uh, I don't know, show people mentioned to each
other and obviously it was so perfectly executed that,
Stacy: Hmm.

John: so it's hard to imagine, you know, the state of television without that show having existed
at this point.
Like it's just
Stacy: Sure.
John: you know, pillar. Um, you know, just a brilliant show.
Stacy: Truth.
John: yeah, when I first heard the pitch, I was like, could that, like, could that actually work?
strategic attachments could also occur like, like Drew and I had a historical thing we were
developing and we're like, okay, we, you know, separate from Waco.
And one of the things, you know, our agents were like, oh, you know, smokehouse like George
Clooney's company could be a good partner for you, you know, in this,
Stacy: Mm.
John: um, because they're known for this kind of thing. Um, you know, so, you know, finding
producers, you know, people who, uh, are meaningful in that kind of environment, know,
whatever you're trying to sell, uh, can be really, really helpful too.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: uh,
Stacy: like sometimes early writers or young writers are very nervous about the idea of, um, I.
At least I remember this from my youth are very nervous about getting producers or people like
that attached for fear that like, oh, you know, other people, like, if we work with this producer,
then that's basically closing the door on all those other, you know, possible relationships.
But I don't, I don't think it really works that way. I think you're smart to
suggest that somebody go to, uh, you know, potentially reach out to make a first pitch to a
producer, because then you're still gonna have to, even if the producer says yes and is into it,
you're still gonna have to go out and pitch to studios and networks.
Do you know
what I mean? And they can, if they're reputable, they can give you, uh, a lot of clout and open a
lot of doors for you.
John: that's true. That's true. And, you know, producer, like a, a great producer can help you
interpret notes, can kind of back channel with, you know, studios and networks to. Get more
detail or more information. You know, sometimes they'll be like, oh, the execs are telling you this,
but really the problem is their boss
Stacy: Hmm.
John: doesn't want anything in this area, so let's lean more away from that.
Or, you know, there, there's just all kinds of clarity that a, a great producer can help you get, and
a great producer can help be an engine that just drives, uses their relationship to get more
pitches, you

Stacy: True.
John: or just keeps things moving, you
Stacy: Hmm.
John: uh, in, in a way, sometimes it's, it's harder, uh, as a writer, an individual to, to keep
moving.
Stacy: I think you could also get your foot in the door. If you're like a new writer, an unknown
writer, a young writer, it's probably easier to get your foot in the door with a production company.
Like for example,
I would think, okay, like we went out with murder at the state fair and you know, we were pitching
to, we were eventually pitching to like.
The head of NBC or maybe she was the head of peacock, I don't remember. But, um, 'cause I'm
so terrible with the, the businessy stuff, but if we had gone, um, to a producer first, uh, there's a
really good chance we would've been pitching to like a 26-year-old just outta the mail room. New
execs somewhere. Do
you know what I mean?
Like, like, and, and, they are probably have more time in their schedule and are probably more
open to hearing stuff. Another, another
good thing about, um,
John: just, uh, for clarity, it was the head of acquisitions, not the actual head of,
Stacy: oh, thank you. Yeah.
John: entire, uh, you know, um, NBC, head of Acquisitions.
Stacy: Still pretty Pretty
sweet. Pretty good. Pretty fancy apple.
John: Yeah. Very fancy Apple. I just wanna,
Stacy: Yeah. Thank you. No,
that's so good. I really am truly the worst, uh, with proper nouns and job titles. I pitched to
somebody somewhere and she impressed me,
you know,
John: Well, it's
Stacy: but, uh.
John: at that too. Drew's always like, you know, we'll be going in for a meeting and Drew will be
like, do you know how important this person is? I was like, I don't want to think about that. That
stresses me out. Like, he's like, but this person's like a really important person. You know?
It's like, no, no, stop. I, I just wanna meet people as people. Um,

Stacy: You were talking about, strategic attachments of going to producers and pitching to them
and trying to get them attached.
Um, I would say another thing they can help you do is polish your pitch to go out to studios and
networks.
Do you know what I mean?
John: That
Stacy: Not only hopefully are they, uh, well respected enough and have enough relationships
that they can get you a lot of, you know, a quantity of places to pitch to, but they can help you
work on the pitch itself.
Like with, um, the producers for Murder at the state Fair again, are the tandum company who
are
so smart and so nice
John: Just
Stacy: and
John: people if you
Stacy: wonderful people.
John: them. Wonderful
Stacy: Wonderful people and Jenna and Mel, um, execs there at, what do you call them? Execs
or producers if it's a
production company?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: two of the execs at a tandem bomb company.
Like we worked on the murder at the state Fair. Pitched together with the visuals and the writing
of it. I mean, we worked together on it for like a year and
then, and then went out, uh, to studios and networks
or, or I'm sorry. We were, whatever. Nobody needs to know all the details,
but they were so good at it.
They helped me, uh, make a better pitch.
John: Oh yeah. And you know, I'll use them as an example, a tam bomb company. Like the
Times we've gone out with a pitch with them, like we have 10 times the number of people willing
to hear a pitch if we have them. If, if we're doing it with them, because people love the tandem
bombs. They love,
Stacy: Yeah,

John: um, working with them.
And, and so a lot of doors open that, you know, uh, drew and I and
Stacy: all.
John: like, we aren't necessarily always open to us in every pitch. So
Stacy: Mm.
John: provide a lot of value
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that alone and then refining the pitch. And
Stacy: Yep. They improve the quantity of pitches, they improve the quality of the pitch.
yeah.
John: Yeah. And that's, that's a, you know, both huge wins. And I, I'd say in the strategic
attachments too, uh, I'd, I'd add two more things.
Uh, one is, uh, showrunner potentially,
Stacy: yeah.
John: if you're gonna show, run this, um, you know, it, could cut both ways. You know, if you're
newly experienced, you know, like, you know, on the newer side and you haven't run a show
before and you're like, I'm gonna run this myself. Um, that can, uh. You know, almost like, you
know, writing a script and being like, I'm gonna be the star.
This is for me to star in and nobody else like that,
Stacy: Also, I'm gonna write all 10 episodes.
Yeah.
John: totally. Totally. And that, that has worked for people at times, like, you know, Taylor
Sheridan, but you know, he had a, um, you know, a history of, uh, writing and, and directing
already. Um, you know, on Waco for us, like we wrote, we, we had written and directed multiple
movies, but because season one was our first time doing it, um, they wanted, uh, us to work
with, uh, another high level, right?
An executive producing writer who, you know, we were like, oh, does this, you know, you know,
what does this mean? Does this mean they're taking it away from us? Like we, we had some
real misgivings. And then he showed up and he was great. And, uh, we learned so much from
him. And it was really, really a, a, it was one of those. Uh, things I wouldn't have chosen, but
was, uh, life changing league positive for me. And, um, and so, yeah, I just want wanna bring
that up too. It doesn't mean like if they're like, Hey, you know, love your show, but we want, um,
know, we think, uh, attaching a show runner or somebody who's, you know, facilitated shows
before, you know, like Matt Weiner on Mad Men had a, had a showrunner.
Stacy: What? Really? Wow.
John: was a creator and he was kind of the one, you know, things, but there was somebody
else like kind of keeping the on the car and running thi, you know what I

Stacy: Yeah. That's very normal. I think
that's a, I think there are so many examples where a creator, a new creator or new to tv,
um, is, is, paired up with a showrunner. Um, I think there's like a, a zillion examples of that and
that can be, uh, so helpful. So
yeah. So that could be one of your strategic attachments.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: What about.
John: especially a showrunner with, uh, uh, a great track record. Like if you got,
Stacy: Sure.
John: one of those high level showrunners who has worked in this genre and done, you know,
this kind of thing, um, know, that, that can really, really move the needle on selling something.
and also I, I'd say, uh, you know, director or you know, somebody, like you're a writer who hasn't
directed, uh, and don't plan to direct having, you know, like, uh, you know, we interviewed Philip
Noyce, like, like somebody that, you know, at that tier, like a, you know, high level,
They had Dareon for Walking Dead, which, you
Stacy: sure.
John: uh, didn't turn out super great relationship wise, but, but it got it sold
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, and it was a really well-directed pilot.
Stacy: And I know some of our listeners might be like, yeah, but I don't really have access to
Frank Aught but you know what a lot of our listeners do. Like, do
you know what I mean? Like, I, I'm personally, as you're listing people, I'm like, oh, I know that
person. Oh, I know somebody who knows that person.
Oh, I know that person. You know what I mean? Like,
if you hang around long enough and you know, even if you haven't broken in,
in all aspects, you know, chances are you've broken in somewhere. You know, you know, you've
taken all those Groundlings classes and one of the people you went to school, to Groundlings
class with now has a show.
Or you sibling knows somebody. Like, like if
you stick around long enough, you're gonna have some connections. And uh, and yeah,
somebody might be willing to take a chance. ,
John: I would say too, like as you, I. Strategically attached. You know, someone like a producer
or somebody, you know, they may have a lot of these contacts. They may be like, oh, we worked
with this, you

Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, Leslie Linka, gladder, you know, on this, you know, previous show.
She would be amazing as your pilot director, great to work with. Let's see if she'd be interested.
And you can, know, as you attach people strategically, they may have contacts like, you know,
Sal Stabile who came into Waco season one. He's like, Hey, I know John Leg Zamo. Like I
worked with him before.
Like,
Stacy: Oh,
John: I, I bet he, I bet he'd be willing to do this role. And we're like, oh my God, that'd be
amazing. And he reached out and John signed up and it was,
Stacy: that's awesome.
John: of mind blowing for us. And, and then John was the one who was, you know, nominated
for the Emmy at the end of it.
Stacy: Right.
John: that was all, you know.
Salbi. Like he figured, you know, he made that happen for us. And uh, and we're so grateful for
that.
Stacy: So I'm gonna sum up strategic attachments, which is your attachments can be cast. Of
course, that's the first thing people think of. But
it can also be a producer, it can also be a director. Uh, it can also be a showrunner. All of those
are, are potential strategic attachments. Let's go to
number three for five things that, to make your pitch more sellable, which is truly special
characters.
John: Yeah. Truly special characters. There's some overlap with the big idea and truly special
characters. I think like,
Stacy: True,
John: you know, you know, breaking bad for an example, like that's a big idea. Like a school,
you know, chemistry, teacher cooking, math,
Stacy: right.
John: that is a big idea. But you know, in that like.
character. He's turning 40, I think 40 or 50. He's turning, uh, it's his birthday.
Stacy: I can't remember. I think 50.
John: you know, he finds out, you know, they're
Stacy: Right?

John: he has a, you know, child with special needs. They don't have money like he's, know,
about to go broke. And then he sees, you know, through his da, you know, DEA, you know,
agent Brother-in-Law, how much money some of these meth dealers make.
And he comes up with a plan like, oh, what if I just dealt enough meth to like, make sure my
family's oh, and he knows he's dying. these are all like, you know, big character things that, you
know, he's working in a car wash at night to
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: and he's, he's got this anger, this, you know, this anger inside of him.
Um,
Stacy: There is no way that great character. Sprang into somebody's mind fully formed like that.
That is, that is the result of loving patient creative rewrites. I did a, back when I was in acting
school, I went to Carnegie Mellon School of Drama for Acting and Musical Theater. And one of
the exercises we did with our teacher, Janet, who was so great, Janet Morrison, was, um, we
were working on checkoff and we were doing like one of those actor warmups.
I don't know if any any of you are actors listening, but there are a lot of warmups that you do at
the beginning of class where you sort of walk in a circle. Uh, everybody just sort of goes into
their own head, uh, as they walk in a circle and the teacher fills them up with things to think
about. And Janet, uh, was leading us through.
What it feels like to be a checkoff character. Uh, I can't remember the play, I can't remember the
character, but it was all these things of like, you are not engaged. The man you love is at the
dinner party. You, uh, just found out you've lost all your money. Your foot has fallen asleep. You
have hiccups.
Like, I can't, like,
it was just, it took like 10 minutes of just layering on all the details of what makes this particular
dinner party and this particular moment so fraught and tense, you know? And I feel, uh, and that
was just to, to be able to put it into performance. But you can do like, obviously a similar thing
with your characters of just layer on what makes them lovable, layer on what makes them
specific, layer on what makes this a difficult time in their lives.
The conflict, you know, the adversity they're up against.
John: What, what makes them fallible? Their weaknesses and
Stacy: Yeah. Vulnerabilities.
John: their vulnerabilities. I, I feel like, you know, a big part of the reason we love the people we
love is because more, because of their vulnerabilities than accomplishments.
Stacy: Mm
John: I would say the same is true for characters.
Like we see these like. Oh, why are they doing that? You, it's gonna be so bad for them. Like,
and you can't help but feel that, you know,
Stacy: mm

John: um, towards them. And, uh, and I, I think just all those things, all the, the ups and downs
that makes like, make them really special, make them really pop
Stacy: I'd say one of the things that makes characters special too, uh, and attaches them to the
big idea is irony.
That was a, uh, like it is ironic that a chemistry teacher. Would deal meth. Yes, it's apt because
he has knowledge of chemistry and meth is a chemical product. But it's ironic because that's,
you know, a teacher is a helper, a teacher is kind of nerdy and milk toasty.
There is inherent irony, fish outta water irony there that makes you like, lean in and go, Ooh,
what's that gonna look like? You know?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Whereas there are other things, like if you have a pitch and it's got a cool world or a cool,
you know, setting or something, but your character's just like, it's just a guy.
Or that you, if they're
generic, you've got a problem
or no, I won't say that. You've got an opportunity, you've got
an opportunity to make somebody not, uh, not generic and irony. Uh, that's a big Save the cat
thing right in the log lines. That there can be a, a good log line has some inherent irony to it,
usually based in who the character is.
Like, oh my God, that character in that setting, ho, ho sparks will fly.
John: yeah. That's really good. And like, I think too, like when, if in a pitch someone's like, well,
why is this character doing these things? And the response is like, well, because that's their job.
Like, if that's a response, like, you're a little dead in the water. You know what I
Stacy: Yeah.
John: it's important to, like Joe Pickett was a game warden who we like to say. Was so
determined to do the right thing because he was terrified. If he did, if he didn't, that he'd become
just like his father. Like, so
Stacy: Mm
John: right thing almost too vigilantly and for all the wrong reasons.
Stacy: mm.
John: and that gave, you know, a complexity, a human complexity. you know, he's writing
people tickets for hunting violations, but he's doing it because with a rigidity that people would
not have, you know, because he's terrified of backsliding into who he believes he's potentially
destined to become.
Stacy: Mm.
John: and so we, we could talk to like his reason for doing the things he did,
uh,

Stacy: it meaning,
John: just duty or Yeah. Like,
Stacy: yeah.
John: it's his job, you know, that's what
Stacy: Yeah,
John: do. You know
Stacy: yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like, I'm thinking of Law and Order. SVU Love me, love me some
SVU,
uh, we pretty much stopped watching it. Well, I mean, I'm sure they're making, they're still
making it right. It's not like a
John: I
Stacy: thousand years,
John: Yeah, yeah,
Stacy: but Yeah. But now we have kids, so we don't really watch it.
But we used to, I used to just gobble 'em up and Olivia Benson, holy crap, beloved character.
And she is, you know, a special victims unit investigator. She's investigating rape all day, and
she, herself is the product of a rape. You know, she was born
John: yeah,
Stacy: from a mother who was raped. That's fucking genius. Oh, I shouldn't have said
the F word. That's, that's so genius. You know?
John: That is, that is, that's that kind of thing. Like what, you know, what is special about your
character in like, I remember CSI, everyone was like, you know, oh, one of the characters in
CSI, you know, used to be a prostitute. Now, you know, she's a cop. it's like, that's awesome.
Stacy: That's cool. Yeah.
John: That wasn't a show I gravitated towards, but I heard multiple people mention that detail,
like
Stacy: Hmm.
John: that's, you know, that's not the big idea of the SE series, but that was the kind of hook
that people, like, a great character like becomes part of the hook or,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: like his sister went missing in an unexplained way, and so he was always kind of
searching for his sister.
Stacy: Hmm.

John: that just gives, that gives some great character dimension. And the irony you're talking
about, like,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: a personal reason for caring about this.
Stacy: God knows if you wanna show to run a long time, chances are you're gonna be dipping
back into that character's backstory.
Whether it's meeting people from their past or flashing back to it, or, or flash popping bits of
trauma, or, you know, having an interesting past. Even. Even if like. It sure comes in handy
when you're on season 1 billion.
It sure is
nice to be able to dip into the character's past.
John: totally. Or like something like Monk, you know what I mean? That's a crime show, but a
guy with debilitating OCD, you know, in a crime show, like as
Stacy: There was a bunch of those for a while. My parents loved all of them, like it's
an investigator, but they've got, or it's a, it's a, you know, a doctor or an investigator, but they've
got like that one weird quirk, you
know?
John: yeah.
Stacy: that stuff.
John: one thing that makes it hard for them to do their jobs, but that's the still what they're
showing up and doing.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: yeah, it's, you know, I like, I think that, you know, the great, you know, truly special
characters in that, in that world. Like if you can, you know, add world plus this special character
and you can see people's eyes go like, oh, that's such a. It never occurred to me, you know, the,
you know, product of a, know, an assault, you know, as one of the heads of the SVU like that,
you know, that kind of world plus character,
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: you know, that, that alchemy can be really powerful.
Stacy: We're gonna take it one step further though, because that was number three in our list of

five was truly special characters. But number four, great relationships. You would think, oh, of
course a, of course a great character's gonna have great relationships. Not necessarily, I think in
movies there are a lot of great characters who, it's just sort of them against the antagonist, but
there's not, they don't really dig into relationships that much tv, all about the relationships.

John: Yeah. TV is all about the re and the relationships and, you know, people getting closer
and then breaking apart and, you know, aligning themselves with this person and that person.
Like I. That's what drives your series, that's
Stacy: Yeah,
John: your series, you know, seasons, you know, or episodes, you know, three through 10 and,
and beyond.
Like, is is shifting allegiances, you know,
Stacy: Yes.
John: their
Stacy: Let's talk about the good wife. Let's talk about the good wife because Okay. The good
wife, fantastic character. I mean,
she was a lawyer. Now she's basically been a housewife and, you know, a, a politician's, you
know, uh, dutiful looks good on paper, wife, but then he cheats and there's a big scandal. She
slaps his face, you know, in the cold
open, and that's the end
John: yeah.
Stacy: of,
John: by his side on stage and then slaps his face in private.
Stacy: yes.
John: a this dutiful
Stacy: Yes. I took an Ellen Sandler class. She was really awesome. And she showed that as an
example of how to write a good pilot. And you know, you see the slap at the end of the cold
open and the, the title card comes up, the Good Wife. And she's like, and that's the end of the
Good Wife.
She was the good wife. She, you know what I mean? Like that's the end meaning, yes, it's
called The Good Wife, but the whole series is gonna be about how this good wife stops being
such a goody goodie and like gets her mojo back. You know what I
mean? I just, I just love that. I thought it was so good, but okay, so there's a great character
right?
But, and, and I bet initially nobody even thought of relationships. They just thought of maybe her
relationship to her husband.
Right. But it was just God, that's an awesome character. The, the woman who stands by her
man in public and then slaps his face, private, great character. But then the show developed
such good relationships, like the boss who eventually hires her is her old boyfriend, you know?
Oh,

good. Now we've got old romantic tension. Her mentor.
John: I would say he's the real love of her life, not.
Stacy: Yes.
John: she ended up with
Stacy: Yeah. So it ends up in this fantastic love triangle that spins
out for years. And then her, and then she's got, uh, this woman, this older woman who seems to
be a mentor, but is really kind of a backstabbing mentor. You know,
like Uhoh, is this woman on her?
John: back and forth.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: things at different
Stacy: Do we trust her? Is she really gonna help or not?
And then she's got this colleague, this young peer, I forget everybody's names by now, because
good wife is 4,000 years ago, and I'm the worst. But, uh, the dude. Carrie, Carrie,
that's her peer, because he's also a first time associate, a first year associate. But of course,
he's much, much younger than her because she spent all that time being the good wife.
So now they've got this competition, right? But they've also, and he's kind of a bro, but, so
there's a little disrespect there, but there's also some respect, you know?
And then she's got this investigator with Kalinda and that's, I mean, I mean, Kalinda is a
fantastic character, right?
But it's also the relationship between them that there's
sort of like a couple of broads drinking their bourbon drinks, you know,
being tough together and a little sexual tensiony and kind of best friends, like they're both kind of

lone wolves who have best friends, you know?
And then you throw the kids
in. Then you got the mother-in-Law.
John: had had an affair with her husband back before she knew her.
Stacy: Oh, I forgot about that.
John: yeah. But like that all said, there's so many great relationships in, you know, and they
obviously thought through these relationships, like, how is she gonna get along with, each of
these different characters brought out a different side of her, and we

Stacy: Yes.
John: see a different shade of her personality, you know, accessed by her ex-husband,
accessed by her, her true love, accessed by her competitor, accessed by her friend,
Stacy: Her brother, her mother-in-Law, her kids,
John: Her kids
Stacy: yeah.
John: different relationship. Like, and you were able to see this really multidimensional person
as a result of all these relationships.
Stacy: Mm.
John: And, I, I would say too, like looking at the concentric circles of relationships, like if you
have a show and there's like you know, or 10, you know, lead characters say, and you can find
ways to then them closer and closer together.
Like, family relationships go deeper, you know what I mean? Like have more, more ground they
can cover than, um, work relationships, for
Stacy: Mm.
John: Like if you can, you know, make, um, you know, and the good wife, those aren't just like.
People she knew, they were, you know, people she worked with and they were family members.
They were, you know, they were the people in her environment every day where if you can, you
know, something like Hill House. These weren't like investigating this haunting, you know what I
mean? They were They
Stacy: Mm
John: deep relationships with everyone in that house. You know what I mean?
They had deep relationships all around the board and individual relationships with each other
Stacy: mm
John: and different ways of reacting to different siblings
Stacy: You can also Venn diagram it. You're talking about concentric circles of relationships, but
you can also say it's like a workplace thing, right? Where you're not
really, I mean, you know, it's like there's obviously gotta be space in the world for like workplace
pitches or friend
pitches and all that,
John: For
Stacy: but you can also Venn diagram it where.
There's some overlap where there's some reason for someone in your family to visit you at work
and not just

visit, not just like, oh, so this is where you work. Oh, I like your, but you know, to actually
have like a real, again, I'm thinking of the good wife of who was Eli, was that the character?
Anyway, there was like
this great lawyer, spin Doctory or spin doctor character who like, yes, she was now estranged
from her husband, but they still had to put on a good political face.
So then there was this, you know, sort of, uh, the Allen Cumming character that would come and
go. He created sort of a Venn diagram on top of them to connect them, you know,
and then his daughter ends up working for the company and that there's another Venn diagram
of like, oh, there's a familiar relationship or romantic relationship and a work relationship sort of
Venn diagramming each other.
John: yeah. Like overlapping and,
Stacy: Overlapping. That's a better way to say it.
John: and you know,
Stacy: Uh.
John: Wife as an example, like her best friend is somebody who works at the firm. As an
investigator. So all the investigative beats, like she also is a part of, and she also had an affair
with her husband before they knew each other.
And that becomes a secret. So there's just these, you know, there's like a myriad of ways that
these relationships are interconnected, even within that one relationship.
Stacy: Yeah, that's so true.
John: so much to do with that. So, you know,
The more spider webby the relationships
Stacy: I like that.
John: And whether that's like making people's siblings, whether that's, you know, uh, there,
there was a, a crime show called Simon and Simon remember that
Stacy: Of course,
John: like in the
Stacy: I don't remember ever watching it, but I remember
John: it was, two brothers
Stacy: I,
John: crimes,
Stacy: ah.
John: I mean? Like together. And they kind of got along half the time, didn't get along half the
time, but there was something in that, you know, siblings doing a thing as opposed to workplace

friends, you know
Stacy: Well, let's go back to your breaking bad example. You know, the DE agent could have
been, you know, it could have been the guy he ran into at the high school reunion. It could have
been somebody, but no, it's
his brother-in-Law, like, that's
so smart. Now you can bring your conflict right to dinner, you know?
John: yeah. And as it gets worse and worse, like his wife is now conflicted 'cause she's, that's
her brother and this is her husband. And now she has to choose one of them as
Stacy: Right.
John: comes to learn. Like, it just, it complicates relationships in an exponentially complicated
manner, which you can just make so much of as the, you know, and I think that's part of what
buyers are looking for is like, will there be an episode You know what I
Stacy: Mm.
John: Like, how will this, like, not just resolve in two episodes and be done, like,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: forever? And, and I think the, the relationships, um, and all the ways they connect is a big
part of that.
Stacy: I just wanna tack one thing onto relationships. We, we promised ourself for this one.
We're like, we can, we can bang this one out in 30 minutes. This will be a 30 minute, we just
started acting away. But just have to add this on that relationships, it's also about changing
allegiances. Again, I'm gonna go back to and, and you don't have to worry about this too much
in your pitch,
but I think it's worth mentioning when you get to that section of your pitch that's all about the
great legs that your show has and how it's gonna have interesting stuff to say and do for
season, after season, after season, after season.
It's at least worth mentioning that all these awesome relationships have the flexibility and the
potential to have shifting allegiances. 'cause the good
wife, I mean, honestly, it was just season after season of like, this season carries her enemy
because they're competing with each other. This year carries her friend because they're opening
up a shop together this season.
You know, like
John: Yeah.
Stacy: who was your enemy and who was your friend? Who was on your side, who was on your
team, and who was on the other team on that show? As with many good shows that have legs, it
shifted every year,
and I could watch that endlessly. I.
John: me too. Me too. number five on the list. Uh, one other thing that can make your pitch
more sellable is some sort of ip. IP is intellectual property of some sort. that's, that could be a

book, that could be a podcast, that you own, that you control. you know, it, it can be, uh, the life
rights of somebody, for, for our season.
One of Waco, and I had stumbled across, uh, David Thibodaux's book. and you know, it was, it
was like this outer print book and. Nobody else was looking at, you know what I mean? Like, no,

Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: we were in a non-competitive, it wasn't like a New York Times bestseller that had just
come out. This is something that had come out, you know, 15 years before or something like
that, and had sort of run its course.
And, um, you know, we found him on Facebook, reached out to him, flew to, you know, banger
Maine to, to meet with Thibodaux. And
Stacy: all with the goal of optioning it?
John: so it was with the goal of optioning it,
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: option it to, because we didn't just wanna tell a generic, you know, Waco story, we wanna
tell his story. And that's kind of how we came into the whole thing.
It was, we're like, we want to tell this story. And as we went further, then we found, um, Gary
Nester's book, uh, stalling for Time. He was an FBI negotiator. So now we had a Branch
Davidian's book and we went and, uh, met with Nesser too and got, you know, you know, we're
lucky enough to get his book also.
but controlling those two pieces of IP made us the guys who were gonna do that series. And
then when we sold it, we, so our deal was much, much better than it would've been if we just
showed up, uh, a pitch, but with no, uh, tangible object,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: us in a much better negotiating position. It It just felt to people like the train was already
moving.
Stacy: Yes.
John: And I feel like that alone, like anything you can do to give that feeling like series is gonna
happen, this is gonna, this is gonna be a thing,
Stacy: I mean, honestly, let's just go back to our body of work. There's like, I hadn't really
thought of this thought of this before, but Waco, you had those two pieces of intellectual property
and then
added a new one for Waco, season two, right?
John: Yep.
Stacy: Did we end up optioning that? And then Joe Pickett. The Joe Pickett TV series obviously
is based on the CJ Box book series.

Right now we're developing murder at the state fair for Hulu. That is based on a series of award-
winning articles from the Des Moines Register.

So that was newspaper intellectual property.
Um, the order,
John: family, uh, crime family one was, uh, based on, an article in Rolling Stone.
Stacy: yeah.
John: Friday night Lights, you know, we're Drew and our slated to direct, uh, Friday Night
Lights, reboot. Um, you know, that's obviously got IP like has IP upon ip.
And in fact, they actually sent out reporters find a new town, create new ip, you know, to, to
base this, uh,
Stacy: Oh yeah.
John: the next series or the
Stacy: Yeah.
John: movie on,
Stacy: I feel like there's always a sense, like you said, that the train's already go, 'cause I know
some listeners will be like, yeah, is there nothing creative anymore? Is there nothing original?
And I get that. But I feel like with intellectual property, first of all, there's a sense of authenticity
and
and truth to it that you know, that somebody's already put some artistic thought into it.
It might even be based on something real. And
then, like you said, there's, there's a sense of momentum. There's like, oh. There's, there's a
path to product. It feels like there's more of a path to production because there's already one
stepping stone that's been laid down. It's not
just like somebody showing up with an original idea.
It's like, no, there was already a stepping stone. There was already an article or a book or a
movie or a musical or something that's already been laid down, and now we're at the next step,
which is converting it into television. I don't know, it just,
John: yeah.
Stacy: it feels like more of a path to production.
John: A lot of these. whether it's a streamer or network like our corporate owned, and a lot of
the times people wanna be able to point at something and say,
Stacy: Ah,
John: bought the last of us. It's a video game.
You know what I mean?
Stacy: yeah.

John: this thing we're converting it into a series. Like we, you know, whatever it is. Like, just
something they can point at, not like, Hey, you know, this guy had a great idea and we thought it
was cool, and so we bought it and we're gonna spend a bunch of money to make this series.
Stacy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
John: like something like the Joe Pickett series. Like there's a proven audience for that. There's
a, you know, an audience of people who love those books. They're all New York Times
bestsellers.
Stacy: yeah,
John: there's so many books. Like we could've, you know, done that series for, you know, 30
seasons
Stacy: yeah.
John: there would've still been plenty to do.
Stacy: It's true.
John: makes me sad. We only got two.
Stacy: Mm.
John: that's the way, that's the way it, know, these things work.
Stacy: I'm gonna jump in and say if, if listeners are intimidated by the idea of like, oh, that's all
well and good, but like what I'm gonna, you know, like, I wait tables, I barely pay my rent. What
am I gonna hop on a plane and go option a novel? Like, what are you talking about? There's
also, um, public domain
just quite delicious, right?
There are fairytales and legends and uh,
or you can get life rights from someone. If you know someone personally with a fascinating
story, you can try to do that. Uh, follow the House of Usher. John and I were just talking about it
this morning. I've been watching that. Oh my God, it's so enjoyable. It's just so delicious and fun.
And every episode is based on a different Edgar Allen Poe work. You know, there's the black cat
and there's uh, Annabelle Lee, and there's the telltale heart. And that's got to be public domain,
right? I'm
guessing.
John: Oh, yeah, yeah. All of that. And, and so that, yeah, there's, that, there's, there's also, you
know, there's kind of a whole industry of people too, like. Let's say you take a pitch out and it
doesn't go, or you, um, really believe in something but don't have the connect. Like you can
make a podcast of that and then could become your own IP to sell your series.
You know, that you could, you know, write a book, write a story, write an article,
Stacy: Graphic novel,
John: graphic novel. Like you could do one of those things on your own. And in fact, you know,
even like, you know, I was talking to someone the other day and he, you know, works at a, you

know, runs a graphic novel company and Ridley Scott's doing a graphic novel to help him create
IP to then own and sell, you know, into a show, um,
Stacy: so awesome.
John: And it's like, you know, and then you're getting paid twice. You're getting paid, you know,
you're getting paid to do the thing. And someone's also like, and also, so, you know, a show
where, you know, for Tito's book, like. You know, the Waco series, like advertised his book, like
that book, you know, has done real business since, um, he was essentially outta print and now
it's, you know, he's made, you know, money off that,
Stacy: That's awesome.
John: in, in a way because, uh, he owns that, the original IP of that.
Stacy: Yeah. And not only would there probably be residuals, but people wanna go back, I
assume there are residuals.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: uh, well, there's, uh, royalties
Stacy: Royalties. Royalties, royalties. Yeah,
John: yeah,
we'll add one bonus thing, uh, number six, one thing that'll help make your pitch more sellable
is a deep personal connection to the material. what is the big why, what is the reason you need
to tell this story?
And really leaning into that like that. If there's something very deep in your life, you have a deep
connection, like this is the story, like, you know, was in the Johnny Cash movie that, or you
know, they're like. You know, you can't tell me this is the, the song you would play if this was the
end of your life.
You had one song in your life to play. Would it this be your song? And then, and then he starts
busting out, uh is it Ring of Fire or something, you know, one of his like, you know, signature
songs and he is like, well, this is original. And he starts playing that. And it's like this, this
transformative moment.
Like what is, if you had one pitch, one show, you know, you could do for the rest of your
life. Is it this one? And if not, why aren't you pitching that one? You know what I mean?
Like, like what is, what is the reason you need to tell this story? Like what is it in you? Why has
your whole life led to this moment?
Stacy: Hmm.
John: really getting into the deep personal connection you have to, this material I think is really,
really important. And part of the reason the execs will are like, see you as a human being and be
like, oh my God. Well I, you know. You know, this, this story is, you know, set in the foster care
system and this person was a foster kid You know what I mean?
Stacy: Hmm.

John: the execs would be like, oh my God, this person has a rich story to tell and will know how
to tell it from the inside in a way that maybe nobody else on the planet could tell it.
Stacy: That's a fun idea too. Like why aren't you telling this story? If you've got one amazing
story that's so personal, why aren't you pitching that one? Part of me agrees with that and thinks
that's awesome. And part of me is like, yeah, but you know, as a working writer, you're probably
gonna be going out and pitching stuff, you know, once every year or two, like
John: yeah,
Stacy: let's say once a year ago.
And probably they're not all gonna be, they couldn't all be the one story you have to tell.
However, you could bring that level of meaning and passion to it
Do you know what I mean? Give it that depth, that it's not just like, well, I'm showing up and I'm
pitching you a procedure about procedural, about ai, because I really want a bigger house.
And people like procedurals and AI is big, you know what I mean?
Like it's, you can't just Like,
you gotta bring some fire to it and some personal meaning.
John: I gotta say, anytime Drew and I have had a, you know, kind of quote unquote safety
school project, like, you know what I mean? Like, okay, our real project we love is this one over
here, but we're also working on this one just in case that one doesn't happen. Like we'll have a
backup. Like our backups never tend to work.
Stacy: interesting.
John: even when the ones we're really passionate about fall apart, our backups don't actually
help
Stacy: Ah,
John: typically, like, you know, historically for us it's like the like, and we've learned to just more
and more embrace like. You know, it's, it's either fuck yes or no.
Stacy: yeah,
John: like, fuck yes, I love this.
Like,
Stacy: yeah, yeah, yeah,
John: this series, or No, I'm not
Stacy: yeah.
John: spend my time on this because I can spend my time on, you know, on the fuck. Yes.
Stacy: Yeah.
For a young writer. You know, when you're like, I'm coming up with my sample, I keep calling
them specs, but what do I really mean is sample. You

know, when you're like, I'm gonna work on something, and you pretty much just, you come up
with an idea, you're like, good enough, I'll do that one.
cause you know you're probably gonna be writing two a year. You know?
I think it's good to switch your mentality perhaps, and to think, alright, I've got 10 ideas on little
strips of paper in my back pocket. Which 1:00 AM I gonna do? It's good to think about the fact
that if you're actually gonna go out and pitch this, it's gonna take you at least a year.
You know, from start to finish. Just to go out and pitch and sell the thing, and then God forbid
somebody actually buys it, then you're gonna be working on it for another year. Just developing
it and then
if it actually goes, do you know what I mean? Like what's the idea? I can think of some ideas. I
can definitely think of some movies I've written or some TV shows I've written as samples.
I didn't think of them as samples at the time. I thought of them as just, I have an idea, I'm gonna
do it.
But if somebody had been like Stacey. If this goes, you are still going to be working on this four
years from now. Every day. I would've been like, Ugh, no thanks. You know, like there are some
ideas that I just, I'm like, work on it for three months.
Fun. Sounds great. This is the idea I've got at the moment. This is the one I'm rolling with.
But if somebody had said, can you stick with it longer? I would've been, no. I think that's very
telling.
And maybe writers, young writers, new writers especially, should be like, Ugh, am I willing to
stick with this one?
Am I willing to still be talking about this one and playing in this sandbox four years from now?
You know?
John: Yeah. Well, and I, I think part of that too, to your point, like try not to think so much like
what I think would, might sell in the
Stacy: Yeah.
John: and think more like, what is the story I really wanna tell? Like, Stacy, as you were pitching
the, uh, you know, the broccoli farmer going through menopause, I was like, I was like, you
know what?
If someone's like, is the story I would kill to tell, like, you know, you're not competing with like 50
other broccoli farmer projects. You, you are gonna be, you know, you're not gonna be in a
competitive situation. It's either gonna work or it's not,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: be its own thing. And I think. So often when people are trying to, you know, like when
Drew and I were doing like horror, you know, all the time we're going back to it now, you know, in
part.
But, but when we were doing that, I can't tell you how many times it's like, well that movie didn't
work. Horror's dead. Like nobody's buying any horror.

Stacy: Mm
John: um, everyone would pivot away from who and we just kept doing what we were doing
Stacy: mm.
John: it was always wrong. You know, like Stacy, you and I were told, you know, oh, nobody's
buying limited series and we brought out murder at the state fair and had a bidding war, you
know,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: limited series.
Stacy: Right, right, right.
John: think, I think if you're telling the story, you need to tell You know, nobody was pitching a
Waco project
Stacy: Mm.
John: for a Waco project when we brought it out. It was, it was a non-competitive situation. Um,
and that really helped. It really, it made it singular, it made it surprising that somebody's bringing
that.
Like, what, why, why would somebody, I thought I already knew that story. Why is somebody
telling that?
Stacy: Yeah.
John: having that deep personal connection, the big why, uh, really telling something you feel
like, like almost like on a, like, like soul mission to tell,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that comes across in the room, you know, as opposed to like, people want, you know,
brown suits.
I'm going to make brown suits.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: know what I mean? If you're doing that, uh, that shows too. And so I, I would just caution
like I. Tell the thing you really want to tell, like,
Stacy: And maybe pay attention,
John: this procedural and then I'm gonna write the thing I love.
Stacy: right?
John: Like, write the thing you love.
Stacy: So some people have just a very clear sense of what genre they wanna work in, what
tone they wanna work in, who they are. Uh, some don't. I'm, I've definitely suffered from being
like, you know, like, Stacy, what's your, what's your wheelhouse? What are you doing? I'm like, I

don't know. Good stuff, you know.
But I, I think, if every pitch or every show you're developing is not just a product and a project,
but also a chance for you to learn more about yourself,
John: yeah.
Stacy: you can learn a lot about yourself, what your wheelhouse is, what your're good at, what
your future is going to hold, by figuring out what you feel that passion for.
What you don't. For example,
I was like, I dipped into my own head for a second thought. What are some of the things that I've
worked on, that I've pitched on or developed? Um, that if somebody had said, Hey, you're still
gonna be working on this in four years, I would've been like, Ugh, can't I just wanna quit the
business?
And one of them was a rom-com. I really liked it. It was really fun. It was a really cool idea. I
would've gladly spent three months in it if somebody had wanted me to spend four years in it.
No. Oh my God, no. And another one was a, uh, touching family drama. I had written something
that kind of queued me up to go out and pitch on this touching family drama.
I really wanted it 'cause just career-wise, I really wanted it.
But if I had had to work in that for four years, I would've been miserable. And I would've known
that at the time. And that's interesting to me. I can look at that now and go, ah, that tells me
something about myself. Maybe I'm not meant to work in family dramas, and maybe I'm not
meant to work in romantic comedies.
You know?
Does that make sense? It, it teaches me something about myself. And even if you don't get a
sale out of it, if you learn something about yourself as you're developing your pitch, that's
probably good information to have.
John: That is, that is, yeah. Listen to yourself. Listen to yourself and what, what really gets you
up in the morning? 'cause that, that'll be the thing. You put the extra,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, put the extra effort into and
Stacy: The z
John: has. Yeah. let's sum up the, uh, the, the five things to make your pitch more sellable. Plus
bonus. They are
having a big idea. that turns the lights on in people's eyes when you pitch it.
Stacy: ha
John: attachments.
Stacy: truly special characters,
great relationships.

Obviously, we
didn't work out. Who says what?
John: is a mess. Yeah.
Stacy: Let's start it from the beginning.
John: having a big idea. You know, something that, you know, you can see the lights go off, go
on in people's eyes when you pitch it.
Stacy: Strategic attachments, whether it's to an actor, a producer, a showrunner, a director.
John: Uh, number three, truly special characters. Something that'll give your series legs,
Stacy: Number four, great relationships because TV is not just about characters. TV is all about
characters who have great, interesting relationships.
John: five, intellectual property if you, if you have access to that or can figure out some way to
do that.
Stacy: And our bonus number six, a deep personal connection to the material. AKA. Your big
why
or as we learned in drama school, your big why.
John: Uh, if you like our show, please consider taking a moment to subscribe and rate us
wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend. This all really helps us find our
audience. Thank you, and we appreciate you being here.