This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
Stacy: Uno does Quatro, and a lot of other letters. It's the showrunner show.
Drew: I was like, how far are we gonna go?
John: I know. I was like, oh, this is gonna take the whole episode if she does the whole thing.
Create a Good
anticipation. Good. Good suspense. Yeah.
Stacy: Like this expensive. Oh, no.
John: What have we done?

Drew: Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the Show Runner Show, where every week we
demystify some aspect of the job of show running. For anyone who works at tv, who wants to
work in TV or just wants to know how it's all made, I'm Drew Dole.
John: I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: And I am Stacy Saboski. We are glad you're here. I'm feeling it today guys.
John: so this is part two of our pitch series. Um, you wanna sell your show To do that, you'll
have to have a meeting in which you sit, or you'll be invited to, you know, uh, have a meeting,
which you, uh. Sit around a boardroom table and pitch it to execs. Uh, the people you're selling
to will likely have some very specific questions in mind that if you can speak to and if you can,
you know, hit those, hit those questions without them asking will up your chance of a sale
tremendously.
Stacy: This is part two in our pitch series.
John: So, yeah, let's get into the questions, uh, and then we can, we can discuss 'em as we go.
So, first. I'd say the first question, you know, what genre is it? You know, is this a limited series?
Is this an ongoing series? Is it a comedy, a thriller, a drama?
Stacy: How
John: Um,
Stacy: we see this as
John: I.
Stacy: minute comedy, blah, blah, blah. We see this as a, you know, 60 minute dramatic, right.
Would you
John: Yeah. Yeah.
exactly. And that, that's a pretty simple one, but one to, you know, really think through and, you
know, likely you are, you know, if it's a comedy, you're pitching to the comedy people. If it's a

drama, you're pitching to the drama people at that network. Um, so you know, it's, even if you
think they know that and it's obvious, you know, we see, This show as a, you know, 60 minute,
you know, dramatic comedy set in the world of the interesting world of, you know, or exciting
world of mountaineering or, you know, whatever. Like, I'm
just making, but, you know, just something that gives him a sense of what, what genre, what,
what generally, uh, what kind of show is this?
Stacy: You can throw in things like premium, uh, or elevated or, you know, broad or, you know,
sort of, or dark.
John: Mm-Hmm.
Drew: And don't be afraid to mention maybe, uh, some reference shows that they're, that, you
know, everyone in the room is aware of. As you
John: Yeah.
Drew: some people think, oh, this is not like any other show ever. And it's, you know, you can't
compare it to anything.
John: Yeah.
Drew: I think it's
helpful, you know, to. say totally.
We kind of feel like this is, you know, in the world of succession or whatever.
John: Yeah.
Drew: to kind of give you just a general vibe of the show, I think could be helpful to have those
references.
John: Yeah, well, I would Put that as the second question, like what is it? Like what, what,
Drew: Yeah.
John: what is this show like? So, you know, what is it? It's a, you know, true story of a this and a
that and that like. You, You, sort of give like what kind of show it is, like what, what the, phylum
or species of show this is, you know, and then, and then you get into it is like, you know, we had
a pitch, uh, uh, for something called the order, which was a true story, uh, but, uh, polygamous
Mormon crime family.
And, you know, maybe I shouldn't be talking, but I
think it's okay to, Yeah.
it's,
Drew: all right. yeah,
John: yeah. And uh, and we said, you know, this is the soprano in, in, we, we, to it as a, an
uprising story, a a story of, you know, the younger generation uprising. We said, this is the
sopranos if. You found out like Meadow and Chrissy and AJ decided to overthrow their father for
control of the organization.

And that was, that was how we pitched it. And it gave you a sense of, oh, I would like to see the
Sopranos in which the kids overthrow Tony
Soprano. Like that would be awesome. And it, it sort of. Lets them play the movie in their own
minds a little
bit. And, uh, we found that helpful and, uh, still is unmade, so if you're an exec out there looking
to, uh, uh, but it's a, it's a great, you know, it
Stacy: what a
John: be a great series.
Yeah.
Stacy: People, uh, tend to make fun of comps, uh, but I love them. You know, the whole like, it's
so and so meets, so and so, you know, it's jaws meets, uh, I don't know.
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: me out here. Mi Mrs. Doubtfire, you, you figure it out. Yeah, but
perfect.
John: No, I mean,
Drew: watch that. Yeah, for
sure.
John: I dunno how say it too doubt nato. Uh,
Drew: Doubt.
Stacy: But I
John: yeah.
Stacy: helpful. And in fact, actually when I'm preparing for something, when I'm preparing to
write something, I figure out what the comps are for the thing, and I watch a crap ton of them,
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: very helpful. It's so helpful to see what people have done right or what they've done
wrong,
John: That's true. Y
Stacy: comp world.
John: Yeah, you're great about that.
Stacy: Well, I'm super analytical and I find it so helpful. I just find it really helpful.
Drew: I'd love to just rewind too for a minute, going back to like what genre is when we, you
mentioned kinda limited or ongoing and like maybe we could just spend one, one minute on

John: Yeah.
Drew: decision. I think I recently had a, you know, friend pitch. Me something that was, you
know, he was pitching as a limited, and that was my first question after he was done is like, why,
why limited?
It seems like the world you're, you're pitching is, you know, very much an ongoing, and his
thought was, well, I figure limited is just, you know, a smaller commitment on their part and
therefore has a better chance to sell because it's
not, you know, I have five seasons. It's, it's kind of, you know, a smaller bite size.
Um, but I think the, very much, the opposite is true. Limiteds are always harder to sell than show
that has, you know, the potential to go ongoing. They're not, going to commit in the room to say,
oh yeah, we'll take three seasons of this. You know, you're never gonna get that kind of
commitment. So it's, they know the, the power to go beyond season one or, you know, is in their
hands.
So, um, I think, you know, the logic of pitching something. If it can be ongoing, pitch it as an
ongoing version of that, I think is always going to automatically, you know, raise your chances of
selling the show.
John: Yeah.
And it's good for you. It's good for you. It's good for them
because, you know, seasons two and beyond, they don't have to build the sets
and they don't have to, uh, educate the audience on what this show is quite as much. You know,
they just, they have to tweak, you know, the knowledge of the audience. So like, oh, this season
we're gonna do this other crazy thing, as opposed to.
Like what even is, you know, is a show. So like from a marketing standpoint, it seasons two and
beyond are cheaper for, uh, for studios and networks and for you as a writer, like you have to
figure out so much tone in the pilot. And then in the first season, like. You have to figure out so
much tone and just the way who you cast and how it's like season two you're writing with actors
in mind.
You know, you're, you're creating a show that you know, like, oh, this actor's amazing. Let's give
them more stuff. Season two. Like season two, you can really deliver on stuff in a way, uh,
where you're just learning it in season one. And so it's, it's if you can do an ongoing, yeah, it's. A
hundred percent.
The, I guess the downside of an ongoing is sometimes it's harder to get movie stars for an
ongoing, because, uh, to Tom Cruise is not gonna wanna sign up for six seasons of a show that
might go off the rails after, you know, three episodes, you
know? Um,
Stacy: He might sign up for that mountaineering thing you pitched earlier that that sounded
white hot.
John: yeah. But, but you know, so, you know, the casting, You know, it's, it's sometimes hard to
get premier, uh, actors, uh, you know, movie stars to do. Like Brad Pitt is not gonna do a six
season ongoing,

Drew: Right.
John: um, unless he owns it somehow, or, you know what I mean? Unless it's like a different
kind of thing in some way.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: I feel like
John: \yeah.
Stacy: material itself. The idea itself tells you whether it's gonna be limited or ongoing. I mean,
you should definitely spend a moment sitting there thinking about it like, Hmm, could this be
ongoing? Or, but you know, if you've got something where your entire cast dies, if you've got like
a true
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: you've got a horror thing where almost everybody's dead at the end, or, or something like
that, that, that it's final within itself, then it's gonna be
Drew: Yeah, if you're
John: Yeah.
Drew: on, you know, the Unibomber or something like a historical true
story that, you
John: Yeah.
Yeah.
Drew: you know, obviously that made sense to do as a limited, but the flip side, you were saying
that it's very hard to get, you know, big movie stars on an ongoing, the flip side of a limited is,
yes, you can get, you know, bigger actors to do a one season commitment, but if you're trying to
sell a limited, you often will need a couple of those attachments, you know?
In your pocket when you go in to pitch it. You know, I think,
John: Yeah.
Drew: a, a network's decision to do a limited usually is an awards play or, you know, a prestige
play where they say, okay, um, we'll spend all this money on a one season, you know, one
season of a show that doesn't have, know, the season two, three, where things get really
profitable for them.
You know, we'll do the one season, but we want an Emmy for this, you know, and we
John: Yeah.
Drew: that you're casting it or able to cast it at a level that could get that Emmy. And, uh, um, so
I think there's a, there's a. a heavy burden on the limited series to, to, you know, to have a shot
at, you know, that kind of prestige.
And I think, uh, if that's what you're selling Unlimit, it could be really helpful to have, you know,
an actor or two that really means something to them kind of feel awardsy or feel, you know,

prestige, um, uh, that can really help your chances.
John: oh, for our, you know, season one Waco, we had, you know, Taylor Kitch, Michael
Shannon attached to it before we went to any networks. Um, and, you know, I'm so grateful to
them for, for signing up for it. We, we hadn't worked with them before that, and they were just
the vast and uh, just the
ins and outs of the process.
They were just the greatest
And
Drew: no way we sell that limited series without those two guys attached beforehand. You know,
0% chance
John: 0%. Yep.
Drew: Um.
John: Yep.
Stacy: you're not able to attach big actors, if you, maybe your career hasn't reached that level
or you, you know. Have that kind of buy-in or clout, um, you can go ahead and create the kind of
really juicy characters that, you know, people will wanna fight to play. You know, so
John: Yeah.
Stacy: of spreading out fun, say in your pitch, instead of spreading out fun stuff for all eight
people in your ensemble to do, if it's a limited, you know, maybe you wanna, boy we've kind of
focused a lot on this whole limited thing, but maybe
John: that's good.
Stacy: one or two leads that are very, very juicy.
With lots and lots of good stuff that, that could attract a lead. And then in your pitch, even if you
don't have somebody attached in your visual, in your visuals, like your pitch deck or your
PowerPoint or you know, whatever visuals you have, you can actually think of a couple of great
actors who would be great in that role and show, you know, pictures of them to get, to give
John: Yeah.
Stacy: the buyer the idea of like, oh, I get it.
This would be a great role for a Brian Cranston type. Or, oh, this would
John: Mm-Hmm.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Cox type whatever.
John: Yeah.
And I'll say too, like. If you come in, like every role is an Emmy part. It's not, that is not possible.
Like there is a certain amount of real estate in it. Like, and I'll say, you know, for our Waco

series, you know, the, you know, network bought it and then they said, look, you have these two
world-class actors and you're spreading around screen time all over the place.
Like we want every scene to have one of those two in it. And we sort of had to do this mental
calculus of like, okay. How do we, how do we wind all these informational scenes, all these
different scenes that they, they, they, weren't in, in the original script. How do we wind all those
scenes through one or the other of, you know, Michael Shannon or Taylor Kitch?
And we really like it. It took us like we had already written. Drafts of all six episodes and we went
back to zero and like rebroke everything, uh, from the top, you know, and, and added, you know,
changed so much. And, but then we had a show
and, and they were right. They were right to like, and that's, that's been a lesson we've learned
is, You know, to Stacey's point, if you want to like, create a star role, like make sure that role is
the role,
you know, if there's, if there's someone solving a, a clue in a scene, like it should be that person,

Stacy: Yeah.
John: the random guy who just showed up for one scene. You know what I mean?
If there's, you know, the barn burner speech, you know, at the
end of the teaser. It's that person's, it's not some random, you know, scientist who shows up to
tell you something.
You know what I mean? like, it's like, find ways to
make those, uh, parts shine and
give them, give them, the funny lines, the cool lines, the awesome actions.
Give it to them.
Stacy: the privilege scenes, the voiceovers, the affairs, the complications, the traumas, all of it.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: that's, I Would you say that, I'd say that's more for a limited, where you're trying to attract
a big old star than you. I think for, I think for ongoing series you, it'd be great if they're all
fantastic, very individ individualized roles, but I think it's okay to have more of an ensemble with
an ongoing, what do you guys think?
Drew: I think so. I think that's, you know, true. Just looking at like a succession for an example,
you have, you know, probably 10, an ensemble of 10 that are, you know, fairly. You know, five
that are, you know, probably lead leads and then another five that are strong supporting that
have about the same amount of real estate and
John: That's true. That's true.
But I would say,
Stacy: was all about Logan and Kendall.

Drew: Yeah, I think
John: mm-Hmm.
Drew: Kendall was probably, I
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. I bet
John: Yeah.
Stacy: guy, and
Drew: Yeah, I think
John: Yeah.
Drew: exactly right. Yeah.
John: And slowly over time, they go, all right, this character's good. Let's
bring them more forward. But I, I think, you know, knowing who your, like your real leads are,
and I, I would say too, like in, you know, Joe Pickett, you know, that that was like trying to figure
out like find somebody we really loved, you know, to play that role.
And, you know, it took some like, okay, how do we. How do we make this character really, uh,
interesting right up top and to, do you know what I mean? Give him some depth, some, you
know, some, some meat on the bone to like attract someone like Michael Doman. You know, we
loved doorman's work. We're like, we got one shot at this guy.
Like, let's make sure this is a media enough character for him to wanna sign up for multiple
seasons. So I'd say even, you know, for an ongoing like finding. You know, you want your
audience to fall in love with your characters. Like you need great actors for that. And, kind of
knowing who your leads, who's gonna be on the poster and making sure to give that, person or
those people, uh, some real, uh, real meat on the bone
in the pilot I think is really important.
Um.
Stacy: I think, uh, with TV too, uh, also great and I don't wanna get too far away from the pitch
aspect of it, but also great relationships. I think movies can have more of great characters who
are super interesting and they're going through something amazing, but it's not, like die hard.
What are the characters' names again?
I always forget John.
Drew: John McLean.
John: Yeah, done.

Stacy: So John McLean, you know, great character, right? Um, and, and of course the wife, ex-
wife. You know, it's influx. That's that's a cool. It basically, if it was a TV show instead of a movie,

their relationship would be way more a part of

Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: they relate to each other? I think. I think movies can have more like kickass characters
where it's them against the world. I think tv it's gonna be more about, it's not so much them
against the world, it's them relating with the other characters.
John: Yeah, well, movie is a plot, is a, you know, plot delivery vehicle. Um, and television is a
character delivery vehicle like character. You know, it's
characters, relationships. Yeah,
relationships. And I feel like that's how you really get to know character is through relationships.
So yeah, television is all about, you know, let's say much more about relationships than movies.
so here, here's an important question, uh, that your buyer in a pitch is gonna be asking is why.
Now? What about this? Why, like, you know, let's say, let's say you're, you've adapted a book
that was written 20 years ago and you're pitching it now. Like, why now? Why is this the
moment? Or just anything like,
Drew: Or
John: regardless of book, anything, whatever you're pitching, like why is.
Why is this a necessary story for this moment in time? Because that, you know, the things that
really hit the things that really work are things that feel topical, but not too topical. Not like the
thing everyone's talking about. You know? It's like, you know, like Drew and I had an AI thing.
We're like right now, that's just way too front and center a topic.
Let's just let that one go. We're not gonna pitch that, you know, we're gonna let that one go and
focus on other things 'cause it's too topical right now, where, you know, a year ago it might've
been a great time for it.
Stacy: Let's, let's talk about some of the things that we've said. 'cause this is literally something
that we'll say out loud in the pitch. We'll have something written where it's like, and we always
ask ourselves why Now
Drew: this is.
Stacy: we.
Drew: This is a hugely important detail,
like a hugely important detail. Truly.
Stacy: just say what some of our things have been.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: just did was, uh, because we are in the era of Family Reckoning,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: family story,

John: Yeah.
Stacy: And the fam things were not going well. So we talked about we are in the era of family
reckoning. So even though this is an old story, an old true crime.
families and my God, with, uh, politics and covid and social media, things have never been more
fraught among families, and families are breaking up. So that
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: what are some ones
Drew: Uh, similarly I would just go back to maybe that, um, we've alluded to the, the crime
family show, um, that has not been made. But, uh, you know, we had a similar idea on that. One
is like, we are in an era. Of not just family reckoning, but of a, you know, children growing up into
adults and realizing their parents might not be, you know, who they thought they were.
And coming to terms with that and like, you know, the kind of end of, uh, the, the eras of denial
and uh,
um, and what else did we say? Oh, and just
John: Yeah.
Drew: information trying to keep, you know, a society closed from the information of the world is
becoming harder and harder at this moment in time. And, um, all of those things kind of felt like
it made it a very, you know.
You could have told the show 10 years ago too, but you wouldn't have all those elements. It
wouldn't have, like why is the, the foundation of this secret family starting to crack, you know?
And,
John: it's because we we were saying like the, the, for the first time in history, they can see over
the walls of the fortress. They
they've been held in. They can see what other people live like
Stacy: Oh
John: social media and on their phones. And they're starting to go like, wait, why is everyone
else living like that?
And we're living like this. You know? And that naturally is gonna create some, you know. How,
how do you keep people penned in once they see what's possible? Joe Pickett, what was the
why now on that was, uh, oh, right now, you know, is a time when we're seeing, a lot of people
acting, Irresponsibly with their jobs. Like we're seeing, you know, politics is falling apart, like just
everyone's acting crazy and here's a guy who does the right things sometimes for the wrong
reasons 'cause he's scared not to. Um, but here's a guy who's willing to. Do whatever it takes to
do, you know, the right thing in a situation, no matter what the cost is.
And, and that's, it feels good at this moment in time, you know, with politic, with everything
where it is to see one person doing their job, like
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.

John: wholeheartedly.
Um, making,
Stacy: a, almost like after a decade of anti-heroes.
John: yeah.
Drew: That was it. Yeah.
Stacy: where people in politics actually are anti-heroes, and then characters like they're great
characters. They're great characters, but we've had it up to here with anti-heroes. Like, what
about a hero?
What
John: Yeah.
Stacy: person who fights the good fight? And there's still all the conflict, but yeah.
John: Yeah.
And he is not always doing it because he's a good guy. He's not. He's doing it because he's
scared. If he doesn't do the right thing, he's gonna turn out just like his dad. And he's driven by a
negative fear to do right, no matter what the cost is to himself and his family. And
just that.
Stacy: your hero a little juj. You don't want a
John: Yeah,
Stacy: Dudley do, right? He's boring. You want somebody
John: yeah,
Drew: Yeah.
John: yeah. some
some reason, Yeah,
some conflict. Uh, internal conflict.
Drew: uh, the aftermath that season, we could maybe talk about the why now of that a minute
too.
John: Yeah.
Drew: I think that, you know, Waco, the original was supposed to just be a limited series. There
was no plan to follow up. And then when we started talking to the network about, um, a follow up
season, it was like, well, you know.
lot of people knew that, you know, Timothy McVeigh was very inspired by what happened at
Waco to do this terrible thing. what really motivated him. Uh, but what a lot of people don't know
is that he was inspired by and the things he was reading, and the kind of, you know. His specific
brand of anti-government is, was, you know, very much in line with what we just experienced,

you know, on January 6th in the United States.
And how similar, uh, there's just a direct, you know, direct through line between, you know, what
he was learning and what he was believing, uh, and what we just saw on all of our TVs, you
know, in 2021. And a lot of people don't, didn't know that connection. And that's
John: Yeah.
Drew: a reason to, you know, kinda reveal that now, is that this isn't just, you know, a lone wolf.
And then this one thing that
just kind of a riot that broke out. Like this is actually, you know, part of the same movement. And
uh, I think that was, uh, a surprise to most
most people that we were pitching that to.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: like, you know why now? Because you can draw a direct line from Ruby Ridge to Waco
to Timothy McVeigh, to the rise in the militias, to what you are seeing in
Drew: That's it. Yeah, that's it.
Stacy: and
John: Yeah.
Stacy: actually had sold it before, before January 6th. 'cause we were in the writer's room
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: 6th happened,
Drew: I know. That's right. You're right.
Stacy: and crapped our pants.
I'm
Drew: Yeah, yeah.
John: like
Drew: pitching it as like what we're feeling in the
country. Yeah.
John: yeah.
Stacy: have to happen for all the
Drew: No, that's
Stacy: to it.

John: Yeah. Well, and there's this rise of the militias that we were all seeing, you
know, and, and that was all, you know, happening. And, and all, you know, a lot of those militias
used, you know, Waco was their rallying cry. And, and I get it, like that was, you know, Waco
was the, the moment which the, you know. Citizens of our country and the government, you
know, sort of lost their innocent connection, you know, to some extent.
and so yeah, so we, you know, we pitched it as like, this moment can only be described through
these steps along the way. And, and, you know, the why now of it, like, you know, when we're
watching the January 6th like riots, you know, mid writers room we're like, yeah, this,
why not like this? That, that's why now.
And, uh.
Stacy: if you are creating something and you don't have a why now? Uh, I think that means you
have to think a little bit. Not only
John: Yeah.
Stacy: to think about it to make a better pitch, but honestly that's the kind of thinking that's
gonna help you make a better show
John: Yeah.
Stacy: you're basically saying like, what makes it current and also universal, you
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: And, and that's, that's gonna make a better show when you figure that out.
John: That's a great point. And, and it's important. You gotta find, you gotta find that,
You gotta speak to that. cause they, they will, if you, if they don't, if the, the buyers don't feel like
that's been touched in any way, they will ask about that. And if you're like, well, why now? 'cause
I mean, good stories are always good.
Right. You know,
that's not an
answer, you know. Um. Where like to have a reason that this story couldn't have been told 10
years ago. This story can't wait 10 more years. It has to be told now. And this is the reason and
Drew: that's
John: that's, that's important.
And if, if you have to yeah. Dig deep and find it like that is time all spent.
Stacy: Another question is why you like or
John: Yeah,
Stacy: why us? Like why are you the person who should tell this story?

Drew: Yeah.
John: totally.
Drew: hugely, important thing to, touch on in a pitch, why
John: Yeah.
Stacy: a
Drew: yeah.
Stacy: time if, if this is actually from your life at all. If you are pitching something that's like, for
example, um, friend of mine, a couple friends of mine now are, are going out with a pitch soon.
They've been working on it and I've been, uh, reading their documents and stuff. Really fun.
the woman who's one of the two writers. She actually went to, she's, uh, you know, a nice
Jewish girl from America who went to a Mexican prison for two years. In the seventies. That's
true.
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: first, their pitch doc, that detail was buried way down. Like, oh, and by the way, it's a true
story. I'm like, my God, if I had spent two years in a Mexican prison in the 1970s, I wouldn't shut
up about it.
That like, that's, that's all it would be if first, I mean, my God. Talk about a, talk about a great, like
why me? 'cause I was there,
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah. That's great.
yeah. And the why, the why you, like, you know, if, if you're writing a, you know, a, a project
that's like a. Native American story, you're a white person. Like that's gonna be a tough, that's
gonna be a tough one for you to sell. You know
what I mean? That's, unless you have a very compelling YYU,
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: you know, unless there's some, you know, some aspect of that, I'm, yeah.
I can't imagine off the top of my head. Um. That's gonna be difficult, but, you know, the why U
um, what are some good examples of why, why's
that you guys can think of?
Drew: without getting like, you know, too specific, I think, you know, if you're able to get
personal, even if it's a little uncomfortable, if you're able to say like. had this, you know, thing
happen to me as a kid, and so I understand what this character is going through. I understand
how difficult it is to come back from an event like that because I experienced something very
similar to this.

You know? Or if that's true, you know, if that's, if that's, uh, if that's real. You know, don't be
afraid to like. You know, call upon some, some, you know, something from your past, even if it's,
even if you don't want to specifically say what it is or, but if you do have something that you
know, you can relate to in this, you know, main character in some way, um, I think, you know, we
found, you know, we had one, one pitch where we kind of had, you know.
Something fairly personal that we brought up and I felt like it was the most engaged. Everybody
was, you know, in the entire pitch was in that moment
of like,
John: Yeah,
Drew: wow. You do, you do get, you know, the psychology of this in a personal way and that,
uh,
John: yeah,
Drew: that goes a long way.
John: yeah. Like
Stacy: Drew said, you have permission to keep it vague. You
Drew: Yes.
Stacy: say like, without getting too personal, we experienced something, uh, very similar to this,
like a childhood trauma where we learned, you know, that some of our family was built on lies or
what,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: have to,
Drew: Yes, that's it.
Stacy: have to, uh, if you're not
John: Yeah.
Stacy: if you don't want to name the thing, you do not have to.
Drew: Yes, I think that's right. You know, and if you're, you know, I don't know, making a show
about terrorism and, you know, you lost a family member in nine 11 like that, that's the kind
John: yeah.
Drew: should bring up. And even if it does feel a
John: Yeah.
Drew: you know, vulnerable, um,
Stacy: Like Pete Davidson
Drew: like Pete Davidson. Yeah, that's right.

Stacy: he did the SNL opener after October 7th and
Drew: Yeah, that's right.
Stacy: is Pete Davidson talking about this? Well, actually, I'm a pretty good person to talk
Drew: And he like hit that outta the park. I thought in terms of
like, why am I, he killed it. I thought that was just beautiful, what he said. And, uh, um, and even
though what he's alluding to has, you know, um, is not directly connected to, you know, what's
happening right now. Um, it still felt like emotionally he, he truly is a great person to be speaking
to us right now.
And that, that, uh, if you can, you know, if you can find that thing, um, that really.
Stacy: It's also
John: Well.
Stacy: that episode just for the, I'm just Pete, so
John: Yeah.
Drew: That was really good.
Yeah.
Stacy: what were you gonna
John: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say too, like just, you know, you probably aren't a writer because
everything's been awesome. You know,
your whole life, there's probably a moment at which you're like sort of had to snap into
distancing yourself from reality due to some trauma, some pain, like that thing that made you
wanna write like.
There's a world in which you can mention that. And, uh, you know, drew and I have actually
shared, you know, details of our personal lives that I haven't been very open with, with a lot of
my friends. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, you know, things we don't necessarily talk
about in a public way or, you know, uh, with lots of people.
And, you know, it, it's, it's a fine line. You know, what, what's oversharing, what's
what's gonna be like, oh Jesus. Like I don't want to hear that. You know?
Um, versus like. Yeah. No, but saying, you know, saying enough to say like, Hey, I, you know,
um, you know, like Drew and I had weird experiences growing up, you know, from military
school to, you know, all kinds of weird, random stuff.
And we can speak to certain things, um, from the inside. Like, what can you, what can you talk
about from the inside? Like what, what, when you're talking to these execs, what do you know
about? From a personal inside way that they
don't, that you can be the expert on, that you can be. Um, you know, when we, you know, sold
Waco, we had met, uh, you know, on our own dime.

Like we had met a whole bunch of the, uh, surviving Branch Davidians. We had had dinner with
them. We had, you know,
Stacy: Mm.
John: flown around the country and met, you know. Survivors all over the place. We had been
to Mount Carmel, we had gone through the archives at Baylor and scanned them all, read, you
know, people's personal document.
Like we had become, you know, experts to a point that we talked to people who wrote books on
Waco and they'd be, we'd be filling them in on details that we had learned that they didn't know
about.
And you know, I felt really proud of, you know, how deep we went on that one. And
so
at that, by the time it was, you know, we were pitching it.
We knew that we knew that story in a way that, um, uh, nobody we met over the course of it.
Like, you know, like even when we, you know, met like people who were there, they didn't know
the other side. They didn't know what was going on on the other side. They just thought the
other side was evil. You
know what I mean? Both sides. And we could fill 'em in like, oh, no, no, you had that wrong.
Like, you know, like. So we, you know, the why, the why us was like, Hey, we had done the deep
dive. We had done the work and
Stacy: I would
Drew: Yeah.
Expertise.
John: expertise.
Drew: that satisfies that question too
in a big way of, uh. Nobody knows more about the story than, than we do. And that's why us And
uh, it does always help, you know, if you have another layer of like, I emotionally understand this
story because of this, you
know, and that always helps too, of course.
But, uh,
John: Yeah.
Drew: yeah.
Stacy: I would put that in there. I
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: people just poop their pants with excitement over the fact that you two are from
Minnesota.

Drew: true.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: They're just like Minnesota. My god. That's real. How? How authentic.
Drew: We were attached to one show. We were attached to one show at one point that we
weren't writing, but we were attached to executive, producer and direct. And it was literally the
main character. The whole story was set in Minnesota and that was
like really our whole reason for being there,
John: Yeah.
Drew: we're from Minnesota.
Okay. And that's all we got. That's all we have to add
here. Yeah.
Stacy: think sometimes people don't
John: It's true.
Stacy: that like, um, maybe a, writer that perhaps is listening to this who feels like a little bit of
an outsider. Maybe they don't know anyone in Hollywood. Maybe they don't live in Los Angeles.
Maybe they feel like that's, um, a drawback. Honestly, anyone who has authentic.
Experience of something outside of New York or LA and the entertainment industry that's such a
plus.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: If you were raised somewhere weird or you've been in prison, or you've been in the
foster care system, or you worked on a fishing boat or you know, if you had some kind of cool
job or somebody in your family did or grew up somewhere like, like people in LA are pretty into
like real America.
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: people are
Drew: It's true.
Stacy: about real America
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: so being from real America is actually real cool.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: There's all the basics too, of like, even just the basic family history of, you used to do
spelling bees, you used to do beauty pageants, you know, whatever.
Whatever you can bring to it, your real life experiences might be quite a bit more interesting than
you're giving them credit for.

Drew: Yeah, I think that's well said.
John: And just, just I, I'd like to say just from a branding perspective too, like a lot of these
buyers, if they have something, like if you talk to who the human being you are, your life
experience. Like all the people in this room, they're all storytellers. They all have, you know,
signed up for a business that tells stories because they love stories, they love hearing about
what goes on in people's lives.
And if you
speak to that, they will remember you and they
will have like something else may, you know, let's say the fishing boat, let's say you worked on a
fishing boat and they're like, that's so, so crazy. And then a fishing boat, you know. Script, you
know, comes across their desk and they're like, you know, who would actually be able to rewrite
this and do a good job of this?
Is that that person who pitched the fishing boat, you know, you know, person with a
fishing boat history like. Those little ways of branding yourself, like will make you memorable.
You know, where, where, you know, if you're trying to get a job at like Goldman Sachs and
you're like, you know, I once did Ayahuasca and, you know, went crazy in the jungles and lived
off, you know, like snails.
You know, like that's, that's not gonna be a winning play. But if you're trying to sell something
that's about that, um. Tell them like, it's fine. Like everyone's, you know, got a, you know, drug
habit that they've gotten over. Hopefully, you know, and, and you know, like, you know, ev
everyone's a hot mess. Like speak to it, it, it actually makes you
cooler, you know?
Drew: does.
Stacy: be the summary. I know we're not at the summary yet, but I think should be, you know,
everyone's had a drug habit they've gotten over, so use yours. I have one. I have one more to
add about the why you, like, why me, why am I the right person to write this? Um, if all else fails,
love.
Like passion for the subject. Say it's something set in a sci-fi world, or it's something you simply
can't have a connection to, you know, or, or you
John: Yeah.
Stacy: it's quite tenuous. It's just like, I've always admitted to cowboys. I don't know. Um, you
can, hopefully you're writing it because you just love this material.
Like I'm working on a pitch now. I have very little in common with the world or the characters
because it's quite out there. There's no way I could, you know, but I already plan in the pitch to
say like, I love a female driven thriller. So often thrillers are about women being the victims.
They're on the, they're the subject of the sentence.
I love a thing like Silence of the Lambs or you know, Rosemary's Baby or something where the
person is both the potential victim and the investigator. You know, like, do you know
John: Yeah.

Stacy: I can say I'm the right person for that because I fucking love it.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: think that's, that's if all else fails, you can do that.
Drew: yeah.
John: Yeah. I'd say the next question, what's the theme you're exploring?
Stacy: Yes.
John: what is, what is the bigger question? The, the thing that gets beyond, beyond the thing?
Beyond the, like, you know, what happens when a cop, you know, has a drinking problem? Like,
like beyond that, like going deeper than that, you
know what I mean?
Like
what, what is the theme you're explaining? Like in, um, in, uh, the order, I remember our, our
theme for that was, uh, you know, people. We like exploring the idea that like everyone thinks,
like I'll believe it when I see it, but it's actually the opposite. It's actually, I'll see it when I believe
it's there
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: we're gonna see, you know, people who can't see what they're looking at.
And slowly over the course of the series one by one, they're gonna start seeing the thing they
couldn't see. And you know, we all like, you know, like. Tune out, you know, opposite viewpoints
in the news. We all, you know, we all like, there's this moment in time, we're all in our little
bubbles, and it's hard to see the other person's perspective, uh, because we refuse to see what
we don't believe and, you know, so we wanted to explore that in a show.
And that sort of touches a little, the why now and a little the like, I don't know, just a, what we
thought was an, you know, evocative, you know, thing to explore in a series.
Drew: Yeah, I would add to that, I think sometimes the theme you're exploring could sometimes
connect to the why now of it
as
John: Yeah.
Drew: I think that's really great when it does. Um, and, you know, to use that example of like
this, you know, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll believe it when I see it versus I'll, I'll see it when I believe it.
You know, we were talking about how. the world at large over the last several years, you're
seeing these like walls of denial kind of come crumbling down all over the place. And like a lot of
people can relate to this kind of flip in terms of belief, uh, in their own lives in the last few years
specifically.
And, uh, and so yeah. So if you can kind of tie the theme that you're exploring into the why now
that can, that can be great.

Stacy: I agree. They, they go together so
Drew: They do.
Stacy: It can flow well in the pitch
John: Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's worth, I think it's worth saying like thematically. We love the idea
of exploring this. You know, I feel
like just really underscores that. It's not just like a story with like, oh, a bunch of things happen
and it's gonna be awesome. You know,
like, but going, you know, what, what is, what is the thing behind, like, what is the reason to do
this?
What is the, you know,
um,
Drew: Yeah.
John: does this mean? What does this mean?
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: I, I agree with you that it's okay, or it's actually good to use either the word thematically or
themes. We
John: yeah.
Stacy: explore themes of loneliness. We wanna get into the themes of, uh, power, whatever,
you
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah. And then, you know, I'd say the next question is, where's this going? Like, you
know, to, to know like, by the end of season one, we'd like to be in this place by the end of, you
know, season two, we'd like to explore this other thing. And then season three, you know, is
gonna be a, you know, reset. Like, whatever that is.
Like, if you can talk through, you know, I would say three seasons, you know, not like, you know,
in season eight we could do this in season nine, like not go, you know, to, you know, crazy town.

Stacy: Yeah.
John: three seasons, like if you can. If you have a sense of where you're going over the course
of the first three seasons and, and frankly, you know, like a show like Breaking Bad, they were
planning to kill, uh, who was Aaron Paul's character at
the end of the pilot. Yeah.
And they realized like, oh, they're great together. Like, let's rethink this. And, you know, so they
were halfway through shooting and they, you know, took a break, rewrote some stuff and made
them

like kind of a duo throughout the series. And it became about their relationship or. What you
decide and pitch may not be what it is, but they're gonna, like, it is better to show up with a plan,
um, that changes versus like, I don't know, in success.
I'm sure there's a season two, like, you know, to,
to have that, to have that thought out, to have, you know, um, some sense of where it's going,
um, can really be helpful.
Drew: Yeah, and you don't need that much, you know, when you're talking about, you know,
season two, season threes, you know, you need a few things. That kind of just what you're trying
to elicit is just this show has legs,
it has an engine beyond season one. There's, you know, more fuel to throw on that fire. Um, but
you don't need like huge amount of detail either.
It's, uh.
Stacy: just like one sentence
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Or like, our main
John: Yeah.
Drew: is gonna do
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: this, and this, and you
know, and that's gonna be the spine of season two. You know, like
John: Yeah.
Drew: keeping it brief, but just, you know, all you're trying to do is plant the seed that, you know,
there are, there's continued propulsion and, and future seasons.
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: Yeah. Can't tell my son, uh, has a basketball out there. I can't tell if he's about to start
shooting hoops at the,
but yeah, like, you know, season one we like, you know, in the order, I think, you know, by the
end of season one, you know, this person will die and then we'll start to see this start to happen.
Season two becomes an, This character versus this character. And then season three, we're
gonna see, um, this, you know, crazy thing happen and all, how all the relationships shift as a
result.
You know, just real simple, you
know, real simple, you know, couple, couple sentences per season. But to give a sense that,
hey, you've thought this through, you know, you've really thought this through. You have a real
plan. You have, you know, some real craft and you've thought, you know, you've really spent
time with this.
Stacy: Do you think it's, uh, we've obviously said that, uh, for season two, three, and four, you
know, you're only giving it like a sentence or two each. What about in the pitch itself? Do you

spend most of your time talking about the first season or do you spend most of your time talking
about the pilot? Obviously you're gonna have to hang, you're have to gonna have to get into the
characters and the themes and the why now and all that.
But do you do that by hanging all those little Christmas ornaments on the Christmas tree of
episode or the Christmas tree of the first season?
John: I'd say it depends on the show. Like Waco, like we talked through, this is what it's gonna
feel like. This is what the season's gonna be. This is, this is what you have wrong, like your
knowledge of these events. This is where it's different than what you think it is. You know what I
mean? Like we, we sort of had a lot more broad view.
What the series is gonna be. Whereas the
order, a lot of that was the pilot. You
know, we really had a deep pitch of the pilot and then and the world, you know, the pilot and the
world were like the two big ones. And then here's where season one is going, season two,
season three. And that
was just kind of a quick, quick little, little blip.
Stacy: I bet. For Limiteds, you know, as Waco was, you have to sort of tell the season and I bet
for ongoing you kind of pitch the pilot more. That's my
John: Yeah.
Stacy: you know?
Drew: That feels right, like you really, it's helpful to have a really good and last beat of the pilot
and to be able to really nail that, uh,
John: Mm-Hmm.
Drew: on the last scene of the pilot, this is what's gonna happen. And you know, to really. Get
across that anyone who watches this pilot is going to have to watch the next episode.
And that's, uh, uh, that's a really good thing to get across, whether it's limited or ongoing, I think.
But um, but yeah, I think you're right. Maybe in the limit it's a little bit more about the season, uh,
um, than maybe an ongoing. But, um, but yeah, if at least, you know, kind of letting them know
where the pilot episode ends, I think is
really helpful.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: cliffhanger, that's good. Or
Drew: Yeah, it's some
John: Yeah,
Drew: some great, beat that kind of gives you, okay, that's where we are in the story. You're
pitching be a seasoned kind of arc story, but that's where we are at the end of the pilot. That's,
you know, and it can always change later. Um, you know, but it's kind of good about that and
how it comes across in the room is really good, even if it changes

after the fact.

John: And then the, I'd say the last question of the seven is. Who
are
your main characters and why do we care about them? You know, that
that may be, you
know, something you have in the middle of this. You know, I, I'm not saying that's the last
question, but, you know, finding a way. Give us the, the pieces of them, uh, that lets us know
why we should love them and why you love them.
Like, tell us why you love, like Stacey always, uh, quotes a thing. Uh, what I love, others will love
and I will show them how. Like, I love that you know, it's you, there's a reason you're pitching
this, there's a reason you love this. Like, talk about what you love about these characters so that
the people listening can fall in love with these characters too.
Because, you know, TV is a character medium. People are gonna wanna show up to love
characters or you know, be like shocked by character, whatever. Whatever it is, like, you know,
um, uh. Explain what makes you love these characters and why we should,
Stacy: Ideally, I also think you would probably put the characters in action, and
John: yeah.
Stacy: sort of phrased it earlier. It was a bad analogy. But talking about the Christmas tree of
like, are you mostly talking about the pilot or are you mostly talking about the whole. Season,
and I think it's because I don't think it would be a good pitch to just go, here is a list of my lead
characters.
You know,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: so is a lawyer with a drinking problem and God does he love his horses, you know, or
whatever. You can't, like, if you're just doing that, it'd be very boring, very fast. But if you put
them in, you know. Uh, when we first meet the lead character, you know, who's a lawyer with a
drinking problem, he's actually putting down his favorite horse and it kills him because he, you
know, loves that horse.
And I might be pitching something from Yellowstone. I think he puts down a horse anyway, but,
but you know, you put them in action and then, so you can throw in all the details and the
adjectives and the descriptors and all that, but you put them in action and then you lead to the
next character, and now you're into the relationships, you know, like.
He goes to cry about it to his maid because, you know, all his relationships have fallen apart and
the only person he's close to is this maid. Or obviously these are all hideous pitches, but you
know what I mean. You, you put the characters on their feet.
John: Yeah, don't do a list.
Do you know, tell the, yeah. Put them in action of some kinds and give us something we can
remember.

Like, oh, that's a, you know, like I remember House of Cards, like, yeah, he strangles a dog.
Remember
that the dog was hit and he strangles a
dog and you see Yeah. Puts it down and he feels nothing.
You're like, oh, that I guarantee that was in the pitch. You know, I
guarantee. That moment was pitched
like, this is the kind of guy where this happens and this is how he reacts. And everyone in that
room I'm sure went, oh, that's bananas. That's a crazy way to act in that situation.
Like what an
Stacy: fourth wall while doing it. So I imagine the, the people pitching her like, so he turns to the
camera, right? And he says, ity, you know, they probably acted it out.
John: yeah though that fourth wall breaking can, you know, that can cut both ways. You know
what I mean?
Like honestly in a pitch.
Stacy: I wanna do dear listeners, is break some fourth walls and no one will let me. all I want
John: It's true.
Stacy: every episode of television to have a musical number and people breaking fourth walls
and it just keeps getting shot down.
Drew: I was gonna say with the characters too, one thing I'm always tempted to do in pitches to
kind of, know, is to pitch too much plot or story. And I think one thing we've learned over time is
that's where you can kind of lose people a little bit when you're, when you are stuck too much in
the plot, you know,
of the show. And I think I. If you can hold that until you get into this character section, you're
talking about your main characters and saying, you know, our main character is David. David is
a lawyer who loves horses and you know, in the pilot what happens to David. You know, if you
can
John: yeah.
Drew: the plot through the character, I
think that's always super helpful and it doesn't need to be in order.
cause really, you know, as John you were saying this is a character medium. That's what. Your
audience in the, in the room, the buyers are really thinking, okay, do we have great characters?
Do we have, is this a really, you know, rich collection of characters? Um, but pitch all your plot,
even if it's completely outta order or whatever, through the characters in this section.
John: Yeah,
Stacy: And

John: that's.
Stacy: at, or even be overt about potential conflicts and shifting alliances because I feel like so
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: alliance. You can just do that forever of like this season, these two, like each other next
season, they hate each
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: they sleep together.
John: So, just to, just to summarize, uh, so you know, seven
questions to answer in your pitch. What genre is it? What is it like? Why now? Why you, what's
the theme you're exploring? Where's this going and who are your main characters and why
should we love them? So if you, if you answer all those questions, that those will be a lot of what
the buyers are, you know, wondering themselves and if you lay that out for them, that you know,
you've done half their job for them, uh, in wanting to buy it.
Stacy: I, I just have to jump on with one, which is, I think you have to tuck tone into that,
probably into that comp section of what is it like, that's where you talk about whether it's, you
know, rock and roll or grid. Or classic or, you
John: Yeah.
Drew: That's good. Yeah.
Stacy: mention the word tone overtly.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Yeah.
totally. And, and I think tone a lot of that is, you know, by comparisons. It's like the, you know,
silence of the Lambs, like that gives you a really complete sense of tone
or, you know what I mean? Or saw, like those are two different tones, both in the kind of genre
space, um, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. But I, I, I agree with that.
Stacy: All right.
John: Um, okay.
Actionable tip of the week.
Stacy: I would say do this kind of list of thinking. Go through this list of questions, not just to
make your pitch better, but to make your potential series better. All of these questions will help
you create a deeper, more meaningful, uh, better show.
Drew: Mm-Hmm.

John: Yeah.
Great.
Stacy: Hey, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and to rate us
very, very highly wherever you get your podcasts. Um, watch us on YouTube. It's a lot of fun.
Nick, our producer, does fun stuff with us. It's really cool. And, uh, tell a friend about us, TikTok
us. Uh, Instagram us. I don't know. That all really helps us find our audience. Thank you. We
appreciate you spending time with us.
John: Yeah.
Drew: everyone.
John: Thanks everyone.
Stacy: Bye.