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John: All right. Well, Stacy, you wanna take it away?
Stacy: Yeah. Always. Okay. Lemme, I have my lyrics printed here. Dun dun dun. to the
Showrunner Show. It's an awesome place to learn some shit. You should know It's the
Showrunner show. It's the showrunner show.
Drew: pretty good.
Stacy: It is fun 'cause it had a swear in it.
Let's, let's people know we're cool.
John: really earn the explicit for that one.

Drew: Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify
some aspect of the job of show running. For anyone who works in TV or wants to work in TV or
just wants to know how it's all made, I'm Drew Dobble.
John: I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: And I am Stacey Saboski. We're so glad you're here. And before we introduce, uh, this
week's topic, I wanna do just a little bit of housekeeping. We have all these iterations we haven't
mentioned. We have, uh, a website, www.theshowrunnershow.com, and there you can find links
to our Instagram page and our TikTok page and our YouTube channel, which is quite fun
because I don't know if our listeners realize this.
We are spectacularly good looking. Um, it's actually held us back like Margo Robbi. It's been
really challenging for us to overcome. Are good looks. So go see this and, uh, you can guess in
the comments section. You can, you can guess which one of us is tallest, um, which one of us
has the, the biggest teeth and, uh, which one of us is generally the best dressed.
Uh, I'd love to hear your, your thoughts about that.
John: So this week, uh, we're talking about what to expect in your first pitch. You know, the pitch
process is like one of the most important parts of the process of getting a TV show made. Uh,
and so we wanted to do a kind of pitch series, you know, talking through all the ins and outs of
the process, what's worked for us, what hasn't.
Uh, some of you listening have never pitched to a studio or network, and this'll, you know,
probably be, uh, very helpful to you. Um, and some of you have, we hope, you know, we hope to
provide some value to both, um, just, know, with our experiences.
Stacy: I think some people will be surprised to even learn, uh. That you have to pitch. They
might be like, no, but I, I wrote the pilot. Somebody will just, just read that pilot. Right? And it's
like, hmm, maybe.
Drew: Yeah, and maybe just taking a step back too and saying what is involved in the pitch? I
think, uh. Some people, uh, have a pilot script that they're pitching and that the people in the

room have read,
you know, before they take the meeting. Um, that's one version, but often, uh, oftentimes there's
not a script and you're pitching the story kind of from, from soup to nuts right in the room.
Um, and they don't know, you know, much other than a headline, um, about the story before you
come in. So sometimes, uh, you know, things are sold pres script, uh, which can be. Uh, very
favorable because you don't have to spend all that time writing the script. But it also kind of
keeps it a little bit, um, more of an, uh, open field.
I think, you know, when you sell an idea or a story or, uh, in a pitch, then network and studio has
some, uh, you know, input before this, you know, before you're putting pen to paper and, you
know, doing that draft, which you'll often have to, you know, do a pretty heavy rewrite anyway,
um, after you sell a script.
Stacy: Drew. There's also an in-between of, uh, it could be that you don't have a script, but you
do have intellectual property, so
Drew: Yes.
Stacy: in with a great idea and a series of articles or a book or a
Drew: Right,
Stacy: or something like that, that they
Drew: right. Yeah.
Stacy: through some of those materials or not.
Drew: Yeah.
John: it might be their intellectual property. Like our, you know, our first, uh, movie we got was,
uh, the movie Quarantine, and that was based off, uh, the movie Wreck, uh, which was a
Spanish film that the producers had the rights to. And so we were actually pitching them, we
were selling them something they owned,
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: you know, that, uh, if they didn't, you know, like our pitch, you know, we were just, we get
nothing.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: In that case, you're actually pitching yourself for what they already, you know. So
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: an idea that you have, or you and your producers have. Sometimes you're pitching
yourself to be the one A. You want me to be your writer or director for this?
Drew: Yeah,
you're pic pitching your execution of this material if they own it. Yeah.
John: Yeah.

you know, this is, you know, for me, one of the things that I found, I found surprising over the
course of this was I. love writing. I love writing. That was what made me want to, you know, get
into this business is that love of writing, the love of cinema. And then at some point it's like, oh
no, like you have to be good at pitching.
And in fact, in fact, I would, I would venture to guess that may, you know, that writing and
pitching might be equally. for having a real career, like to convince people that this is a show
worth doing, that you are someone you know that they should employ to do it. Like that's a big
part of it.
And, and you know, if that makes you nervous. That made me nervous too. Like, I am not a
public speaker. I'm not, you know. Pitches cost me. You know, drew and Stacy will tell you, like, I

Stacy: Yeah.
John: nervous before them. And during them I've had panic attacks in pitches. and
Drew: Hmm.
John: it's horrible.
Drew: True story. True, true story.
Yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: drew story, drew, drew at this point knows my panic face.
When I have my panic face, I shoot him like these, like, you know, wide-eyed, this wide-eyed
look. And he knows that, oh, that means John's, uh, you know, floundering. And I go pick up the
ball and run with it. And, um.
Drew: It is stressful. It's very stressful. I mean, you walk into a room with, you know, big time
execs, there's usually a lot of them, or you know, five or six of them, and it's, it's, uh, you know,
you kind of have at that buyer, you have one shot and, uh, uh, and they're looking for every
reason possible to say no. You know, you kind of
go into it knowing that that's the mentality of the network.
And it's not because they're, they're mean and cruel. It's that, you know, they're hearing pitches
all day long and. You know, all the time. And they need to be really selective. They need to feel
really, um, you know, certain that, that, uh, when they say yes, that they really mean it. So, um,
so they're kind of, you know, they're geared towards looking for that one thing that you say that
is, uh, the thing that's a reason to say no, and that that is therefore very stressful.
So
Stacy: I never thought of it that way. You think that's true? That's
Drew: I do, yeah, I do. I
know you think like networks are looking for all these great shifts.
Stacy: and it'll be like, oh shit. Another no. Oh,

crap.
Drew: almost have to like convince them beyond any doubt that it's a yes, you know, versus, uh,
you know, um, I think just due to the volume, they're not looking at like, oh, I could see, you
know, with a few changes how this could be a great show.
You know, they, they're, it's just easier to say no because they'll hear 10 more tomorrow. And,
um, I think that's the reality.
John: Well, and they'll never get in trouble. They'll never fail no.
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: Like, so what, like you bring in a, a show and they say no, and it turns into the, you know,
Yellowstone. You know what I mean? The next big thing. Nobody's gonna be like, wait, did you
hear that pitch? Why didn't you buy that pitch?
Drew: Yeah.
John: if they buy something that turns into a fiasco, like a money pit, and you know, the partners
are terrible and all that, like,
Stacy: Mm.
John: they get in trouble. So it's, it's always easier to say no. But at the same time, they're all
looking, the reason they're hearing pitches is because they are looking, they are looking for
things to buy.
Drew: Yeah.
John: looking, they, they have a problem. They have slots in their schedule to fill. And you can
be that solution. And know, I mean, it takes like, the course of time, like I've studied sales, you
know, from Zig Ziglar to Tony Robbins to um, you know, or like read, you know, a bunch of Seth
Godin and, you know, marketing and sales and just trying to get into the mentality of that.
I've done Toast Masters, I've, you know what I mean? Like, I like. I've taken acting classes, you
know, um, to just try and get over some of that. And I feel like that that stuff helps that, you know,
and it's a part of the craft. Like, I got into writing 'cause I'm an introvert. I'm not like somebody
who wants to, you know, you know, pontificate in front of lots of pe I mean, no, I'm kind of doing
that right now.
Um, but it's private. It's just me and Stacy and Drew here, like in my experience here. Um, uh,
Stacy: Right.
John: but then to do that, to, to be forced to sell, uh, is, is tough. And, and I just figured like it
might be nice just talking through. What a pitch is, what the
Stacy: Yeah,
John: is like.
Stacy: I think we should do that. Before we jump into that, I'd also like to do more of a big
picture thing, which is to say, sometimes you can go in to do a pitch and you don't get that job.
But they remember you and, and even right in the room, they could say, you know, well, how

have you thought about it?
They can pitch something right back to you. You go, you try to sell something, it might not work,
but then they say, Hey, we've got something, blah, blah, blah. They tell you about their property
that they own, say, you know, could you be interested in something like that? So sometimes you
end up, you go into the room for one thing and you end up leaving, deciding to collaborate on
something else, or at least to give it a try.
And before you mentioned, sometimes you go and you, you, um. to do a pitch. They don't sell it.
You end up going somewhere else and it turns into Yellowstone or whatever. people generally
will remember you
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: come back and they'll be hungry. Now. They'll be like, I, I could kick myself for letting that
one go.
They're not gonna say that to their bosses,
Drew: yeah,
Stacy: that to you, be like, we have to work together.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: So
Drew: it's true.
Stacy: end up selling the thing or getting attached to the job that you're in there pitching for, you
could, you could walk away with like a cool relationship or a, a future project.
Drew: I think that's, we always say that too, like sometimes it's not about the thing, it's about the
thing you're not even aware of. You
know, it's
the project you're not even aware of when you're sitting in that room. And uh, and you know, if
you're selling yourself well, even if they don't want that particular show, it can often lead to
something else.
I think that's really good to keep in mind.
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: Well,
Drew: yeah.
John: is all, it's all a relationship game, you know, it's, you know, so much of this career is a
relationship game, and Yeah, to your point, like you pitch to someone. And five years later you
come in with another pitch. they'll have some recollection of you, like, you know, if you're seeing,
you know, the same people you're pitching to every two, three years, you form a, a kind of
relationship.
You know, there're, there are heightened moments, uh,

Stacy: Mm mm-Hmm.
John: A lot of the execs who stay at the same place or move to a new place, like, you know,
we've become friends with a lot of the people who hear pitches over time, and it's, it's pretty
cool. Like it's, you know, becomes, you become part of the community in this, it's almost like a
hazing process where you become part of the
Drew: The community.
John: Uh.
Drew: I know
we pitched the same executive at Netflix like six times and we're, you know, we're o for six, um,
with her, but she really likes us. I know she does. And, uh.
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: and for, you know, each one of those projects, it just wasn't quite right. But I feel like
she's always excited to hear from us and, uh, and what we're pitching next.
So it's, uh,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: fun.
Drew: it's, you know,
it's fun, it's tough and you only need, you know, one thing we always tell ourselves is you only
need one. You don't need,
you know, if you pitch six networks and you get. A single bite. That is fantastic. And
that is, That's a sale
that is, it's a binary thing. It's either a
one or a zero and you either sell it and it stays alive or it doesn't sell.
And, uh, it's obviously better if you get two. Um, 'cause then you can, you know, terms can
change. It can be maybe, you know, move from a development project to kind of something that
is, you know, if they buy. Or commit to production or, you know, um, that's a lot better. And
sometimes a competitive process will allow you to, you know, not just get a better deal
financially, but get a more secure
Stacy: Closer to being a show.
Drew: Closer to me to show where it's not, you know, if you have one buyer, it's usually a
development deal. Okay. We'll pay for a script. We'll pay you to write it. We'll do, you know, four
rounds of the script, and then we'll decide if we're gonna make the, your show or not. Um, uh,
but if you have a more competitive situation, you can, you know, kind of essentially, you know, a
straight to series sale is kind of the, the, the thing you really want is, uh,
um,

Stacy: nice.
Drew: that they're gonna
pay you to write the script, but they're also committing to making this series.
And, uh,
uh, that's, that's the, that's the biggest prize.
Stacy: Nice.
John: I, well, I think the only time we've had a competitor, like a, a bidding war is the thing that
project Stacy brought out and pitched, um, sta Stacy's a much more comfortable performer, you
know, she ca, you know, came up, uh, as an actor and, she crushes, she, you know, she
crushes pitches.
She's funny and herself, you know, uh, whereas I'm, you know, kind of like this, like anxious
mess, which is kind of myself, but, uh, but sta yeah, Stacey's so naturally good at it. And, you
know, that was the first time I think ever we've had multiple offers on something.
Drew: true. It's true. We had on Waco season one, we had. Not two offers, at least two
interested parties and enough to make, um, the sale to Paramount Network. One that was a
series, you know, uh, straight to series. So
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: have a series commitment, uh, on a limited series for that show. So that was,
Stacy: That's awesome.
Drew: that was good.
John: That was,
Drew: It kinda gets you through the pilot writing process a lot faster if you have a serious
commitment. 'cause you're kind of opening a room right away and you kind of, you know, shave,
I don't know, six or eight months off the, off the process, which is great.
Stacy: guys wanna jump in, in the nitty gritty, tell people
Drew: Yeah. Can we, real, real quickly, I, the question I get asked so often I
think is how do you get the pitch? How do you, you know,
Stacy: Ah.
Drew: how do you, how, you know, how are you able to secure a pitch meeting with a network
or a studio? Uh, and that's, you know, I. You know, maybe something we could spend a few
minutes talking about.
cause that is tricky. Um,
and you know, they don't have any kind of like website. You could just fill something out at a
blind submission and they say, sure, come on in. You know, it's not

not quite like that. Um.
John: Yeah, you may need an agent manager, somebody you know like that, or a, you know, or
a producer attached
Drew: A producer, some gatekeeper. Yeah. Agent agents and manager are, you know, are, are
great at this. Uh, uh, but also if you are, if you don't have representation, but you have this great
idea, uh, I think my recommendation would be to go to, you know, television producers, uh,
production companies, um, studios and partner with someone you know that does have.
That kind of, uh, relationship with the networks who, you know, will be able to set up pitch
meetings and will be able to, um, you know, kind of give you some, some, uh, you know,
credibility in the, in the eyes of the network. 'cause they just don't have kind of a blind
submission for anyone to come in and, uh, I think that can really help.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: would you cold call them? Say it's like, oh, I wanna get
Drew: Yeah. You know.
Stacy: brownstone, they do lots of cool stuff.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: and see if their receptionist will listen to a little pitch.
Drew: the agents and managers are super helpful
in that regard. It's just, it is so tricky. If you're not, you know, if you don't have, um,
representation, it can be hard. I would, you know, try anything you can at cold call. Do you know
anyone who works there that you can slip them, you know, a draft of what you're working on or
whatever, like, you know, some, you just kind of need that partner to be able to kind of, you
know, schedule all the pitches and, and get that access.
John: Yeah, that's, that's a really good point.
Drew: yeah.
John: yeah, trying to find a manager and, you know, query letters, you know, cold calling
managers, I'd say is a great. A great path or, or agents like I, you know, to be honest though,
like, you know, I spent a decade sending query letters to agencies and stuff and got nothing
until, you know, our, our movie, the Poughkeepsie tapes did well in a film festival and suddenly,
you know, that changed, you know, but it's hard, it's hard getting a, an
Stacy: Oh yeah.
John: you know that that's a hard thing.
And, um, just ha harder than I thought, you
Drew: Yeah.
John: be. And uh, and then, you know, and then it clicks. You know, also like, just yeah,
producers, anyone, you know, who give it a, a read, an open read, uh, is helpful

Drew: Yeah.
John: that can be helpful to be in LA for that re you know, for that reason, at that point in your
career, just to meet people randomly in Los Angeles.
Uh, you never know who might open a door.
Drew: that's right. And managers are usually more accessible, you know, if you're just starting
out. Managers are significantly more accessible than the agents are. And uh, usually people find
management before they find an agent
generally.
John: So let's talk through the process. Let's talk through, you know, what it's like, what, you
know, what the actual physical process, what it feels like, what it looks like, you know, just so,
um, you know, I really honestly didn't have a very clear sense of what a pitch even was when I
went to do my first pitch.
And it was horrible. Um, it was like truly one of the most humiliating moments of my life.
Stacy: I think, I think we gotta roll it back. I think we gotta talk about preparing for the pitch,
right? Because you don't just go in there with five minutes of prep, you've been working on
something, you've got to, uh, that could be a whole separate topic, so we don't have to get
super into it.
John: Mm-Hmm?
Stacy: you're probably, you're preparing what you're gonna say.
You probably have something written down. You've probably rehearsed it a lot.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: say one, one thing that I really quite like to do, um, so far I've done mostly zoom pitches,
so I'm able to actually bring up my Word document and literally just read it, making sure that my
face can be seen. But I don't care if I can see my face, so I, I can just read off the thing.
But one thing I like to do, to make it seem natural to segue from topic to topic or from chunk to
chunk, I actually write those segues out in a way that makes them seem kind of natural. Like,
Hey, we've told you what an amazing true story this is. Now we're gonna tell you how it's gonna
be an amazing, uh, you know, season of television.
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Stacy: that. Then, you know, kinda, Hey, we're going from point A to point B.
Drew: That's good.
Stacy: take those segues, put them in all capital letters. And put them as a header on top of that
paragraph, chunk, you know what I mean? So that say I start having panic, say I start being like,
oh God, okay, where was I?
I know where I am. It's right there in capital letters. It's easy to find, to move on to the next thing.
Um, you could take that as a printed sheet, uh, with you. You'll also probably, and, and again,
we don't have to get too far into it 'cause this could be a whole separate topic. Topic, but
chances are you've prepared some visuals.

Whether it's, uh, you know, that you're going to do it live and you have like a visual deck or
something, you guys know more about that than I do, but, or it, you're doing it um, via Zoom and
you've got sort of like a PowerPoint presentation or something that somebody's helping you run.
Cool visuals of things you've pulled from the
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: You know, famous actors that you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna be pitching your
characters. You have, you know, photographs of famous actors as if to imply like, of course, you
know, you know, will Ferrell can't wait to be on my project, whatever.
Um,
Drew: I gotta say zoom, zoom pitching is so much better than
in-person pitching for so many reasons. But one of the reasons is, uh, the technology as far as
sharing any visuals, I swear to God, like every single one of these boardrooms is like the
glitches tech environment. You go to, you
know, Amazon or something, it's like you guys are a tech company and we can't get the screen
to work.
Like, oh my God. Um. Without fail, you spend 20 minutes of like the whole meet and greet time
is like me in the corner trying to like
figure out, you know, how to plug into their system and then it doesn't work and then they're
just like, okay.
John: crowding around your
Drew: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Like I'll just email it to us later.
Like it just really messes
up the flow and
Stacy: flow. It was
Drew: on a
flow is just destroyed. But I swear if you do 10, I remember doing 10 pitches on Waco and every
single one of 'em had a major tech issue.
Stacy: boy.
John: They,
Stacy: boy.
John: one of 'em. And it was like, yeah, we'd try, we'd show up half an hour early to make sure
the tech worked and then they'd be like, oh, Joe is dialing in from, you know, Seattle like, and
we'd be like, oh, how are we gonna have them watch it? You know? It'd always be something or
just, oh, we don't have any connectors for anything
Drew: All

Stacy: I'm
Drew: guys. Ah, we can't
get a hold of him. Yeah, totally. It
was just, yeah.
So at least on Zoom you have some, some control over the, the technology and the
presentation just tends to
be a lot smoother on Zoom.
Stacy: this
this sounds ridiculously obvious, but I would also say, and again, not to get too much into the
prep, 'cause we could do that as a separate thing, but if you are pitching on something that
somebody else owns, like meaning, hey, they've got, they're gonna turn this children's book into
a movie and they're gonna be seeing all sorts of people to pitch on it.
Um, and, and you're one of those people. Read the material.
Drew: Oh yeah.
John: Yeah,
Stacy: it's a podcast, listen to it. If it's a show, watch it. If it's a book,
read it. You know, I don't think everyone does that, and uh, they should.
John: Yeah.
Drew: least, Yeah.
John: and it's a, it's probably a safe assumption that. At least one person you're pitching to,
probably the decision maker has not read, has no idea who you are, has no idea like what the
project is, even
Stacy: Yeah.
John: like they haven't read their own book. You know what I mean?
Like it's, you know, like Drew and I used to joke like, oh, we we're making a living, like selling
people what they already own, you know? Um,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: and,
Drew: that once We called the studio and be like, you guys own a book that we love. And we,
and they're like, we do. Um,
they had no idea. Yeah. We they had no idea it was even in their library. Yeah.
John: even like, you know, quarantine. You know, quarantine, they, they had a found footage
thing, but they didn't understand necessarily what that was. We're like, here's how this is gonna

look. Because it was, you know, pre clover field,
Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
John: it was like, this is a, you know, but we got it because we were already kind of in that
space.
And,
Stacy: they, they owned rec, but they hadn't seen it.
Drew: They
hadn't seen it. Yeah,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: they had seen like a one minute. Yeah. They had like a one minute teaser or something
they had seen and that was it. Uh,
Stacy: Which Doug And Roy
Drew: script.
Yeah.
Stacy: out of
Drew: Yeah.
Totally.
Stacy: to them. There's a reason they roll around in money.
John: Yeah, totally. so yeah, let's talk through the process. So you show up, you, uh, you know,
go to a front desk somewhere, you, you know, go find the, uh, offices. You know, I recommend
using the restroom before, you know, going, checking in. Um,
Stacy: Show up early. Parking is often hard.
Drew: Yeah. it's true.
Stacy: polite to everyone. Don't be a dick to anyone. You don't know when you're gonna be
overheard. I mean, that should just be in general,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: what I mean. You don't know who is sharing the restroom with you, so
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: be nice.
John: in assistance. Assistance will tell. Like, you know, we've had like auditions, uh, where you
know, people are auditioning to do a role in something and then the assistant comes in after a
person is like, that person's a total asshole. Please don't cast 'em.

Stacy: Wow.
John: you're like, oh, they did great in the audition,
Stacy: Ugh.
John: were. Like super mean. Like they rub someone so the wrong way. Just in the hallway that

Stacy: Yeah.
John: gonna be a problem. Like especially you cast 'em in a TV show, that's a problem.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know, to Drew's point earlier, like there's many reasons to say no in a personality.
Conflict can be one of them.
If you're nice and know, like not snapping at the receptionist, even if you're stressed out. Even if
you're worried, you know, like. Be nice, you know, be nice to everyone because you don't know.
Yeah. Like, be the, you know, the of the studio's daughter who's working the front desk,
Drew: Yeah.
John: know, or this, this could be the head of a studio in two years.
And you know what, they'll remember who is mean to them on their way up.
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, it's, it's all a relationship game. Everyone in that building is a, potential friend to
you in your career. And
Stacy: If you're stressed out and you feel like biting people's heads off and stuff, which it's
understandable, the stress is understandable. It could be nice to pre-plan your reward. These
things are difficult and, um, and you can't control the outcome. You can't be like, I'm definitely
gonna get this job. You know, you can't
control that. You can control your prep, but you can also, um, think about like, oh, after this I'm
gonna go meet a friend for a drink. I'm gonna get a massage, I'm gonna, whatever. You can,
you can preplan your treat. I got one of my first pitches I ever did. Um, I was so nervous for it,
and John and my kids bought me this ridiculous zip up, full length, uh, hooded plaid pajama set
as like a, you did it.
Here's some ridiculous pajamas. And for years I would, you know, wear those pajamas and think
about the job that I did not get. But the, but then I did a good job pitching it.
John: Yeah, yeah. Director and I, our first time we, uh, pitched to a studio ahead. It was again,
quarantine, and we brought it into screen gems and we pitched it. And it was terrifying. And it
was kind of like, we, we didn't think it was an actual pitch. We kind of just thought it was a
meeting, and then suddenly they're like, okay, pitch it.
You know? We're like, oh shit. Okay. Well, thank, thank God. Just as a, just in case we brought
all our stuff, uh,

Stacy: Ah.
John: that ended up being the buyer. and it was, it was super nerve wracking, but we. delivered
and we, you know, we did our part and then we left. And my, my thing is always, I, I drink way
less coffee on days when, uh, when we're pitching or public speaking.
then my, my reward to myself is always like, I'm gonna get a big coffee after that.
Stacy: Ah, the best.
John: drew and I went to Starbucks. our cards bounced. 'cause we couldn't afford two coffees.
Like we were so broke, we couldn't afford two coffees, you know? Uh, it was so sad,
Drew: We needed that job. Yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: job, you know, it was a real burn the boats moment.
so, so you, you check in, you check in with them, you know, they may say, do you want a water
or something? You want a tea or a water? I try to have nothing open. Open topped.
Stacy: Mm-Hmm.
John: Because I, I'm a spiller, I'm a nervous spiller sometimes, and nothing derails your pitch,
like, you know, becoming like a Chevy Chase, you know, SNL sketch, you know?
Um, so
Stacy: I need to have water there. So I'll just bring mine with me and say, oh no thanks. I don't
need your bottled water, whatever. But I will get dry mouthed out of nervousness. So I do the
opposite where I make sure I have a fluid.
John: That's good. And then, you know, the other producers, anyone on your side of the table,
you know, other producers, other right. You know, like anyone who's attached to the project, uh,
will show up and you'll all sort of wait in the lobby together and chitchat You know, nervously, like
I, I tend to kinda like sometimes pace around by myself a little removed like sometimes. Certain

chitchat makes me feel a little crazy sometimes when someone shows up and they're like, Rat-
a-tat Rat-a-tat here. You know, here's all the things happening in the, sometimes that makes me

feel a little nutty.
Stacy: A lot of times they're not gonna be the one talking you are. So they're
not necessarily thinking about, it they can go on and on about the 405
Drew: Yeah,
it's like talking to your. You know, your field goal kicker before they line it up for the winning field
goal, you know, about traffic
and about, you know, the presidential election or something. You know, like you
just leave them alone,
John: Yeah, that's so, good. I love that analogy. uh, okay. And then, you know, once you guys,
once all your people are there, they'll call you back, you know? Do

Stacy: Wait, wait. What do you, what do you wear? What do you wear?
John: I usually just wear a button down or something like that. Uh, and
Drew: It's good to, you know, be comfortable. I think, you
know, it's LA so it's not very formal,
but I think personally I think it's good to be, you know. You're probably in a boardroom at Fox or
you know,
Sony or something. And like, these are real companies where they actually dress up for work.
So, um, you know, it can be, uh, helpful to be not in a T-shirt, I think,
personally, but,
uh, but if you're a great writer and sometimes Yeah. Yeah.
You know, if you, if you, come in with a hoodie and that's your, your, your, what you're most
comfortable in and like, you know, it, it's not a, a faux pa necessarily. Uh.
John: yeah, but it to be respectful, you
Drew: Yeah.
John: you know, like, I think, uh, sometimes people are like, oh, it's Hollywood. I'm gonna dress
like, uh. I, I guess, dress like yourself. What are you presenting?
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
John: I, I, I think, tend to try and present ourselves as, responsible professionals, you know? So
I think we'll show up, uh, know, in a polo or something like.
Stacy: Yeah, not a jacket though.
John: not a jacket, A pro tip right here. I once like, you know, all my button downs were dirty,
except this one, it was wool. And I was like, oh, it looks good. You know, it doesn't make me look
too chunky. And so I put on this wool shirt and then the room was a little warm and suddenly I
just started overheating.
And it led to like a full, uh, emotional meltdown of like, oh my God, I'm pouring sweat. Like, you
know, it was. It was one of the worst pitches. It was, you know, for me, a nightmare. And I was
like, oh, never again. I will never wear a warm shirt to a pitch. I'd rather be a little chilly than like,
overheating. And so now I, you know, you know, I, I think a short sleeve shirt is fine.
You know, like a polo or something is fine, you know, something like that. Um,
but
Stacy: I would SI would say for a woman, uh, probably a good idea not to be too sexualized.
You know what I mean? Like, keep your cleavage to yourself for the day, that kinda thing. Or
like, you know, the level of tightness or the level of cleavage or the level of heels. Like if you're
going in to pitch for something as a writer or a writer director, um, I wouldn't lead with that.
but, you know, look nicer than like, for example, right today, and you'll see this when you go to
YouTube to see how good looking we are. Like, I'm wearing a, uh, tie-dye, t-shirt. I wouldn't do

that. I'd
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: but I'd wear the equivalent of, you know. jeans, good boots, something with buttons.
Maybe it's shiny. I don't know.
John: Sta
Stacy: the worst.
John: Stacy came home one day and she's like, I've had an epiphany. I like, I know exactly how
I need to dress from now on. to dress just like Larry David. I was like, huh. That's funny. That's a,
that's an interesting, uh, you know, not, you know, where I thought you were going with that, you
know?
Stacy: I went, I got a whole, a whole set of target pants. They were very inexpensive
Goodfellows, target pants. I got 'em in all the different colors, and then I just wear a uh, t-shirt.
It's perfect.
Drew: Well, I think one thing to note too, on what you're wearing and uh, is just the audience of
the pitch is. Making a determination as much on the content of what you're pitching and the idea
of the show as they are on what you will be like as a partner for five years, you know, and, um,
and whatever that means to you, you know, in terms of professionalism or, you know, just a, you
know.
Seem like a, a good person to be around versus difficult or, uh, you know, ornery or something.
Like they, they, they are a lot of nos I think come out of like, love the idea, but just don't really
want to, you know, spend five years with that person. And I
think that that's something to, to really think about is, is that's as much of their determination as
anything
Stacy: Not as much Ed Hardy lay off all the Ed Hardy, like
maybe you
Drew: that's
John: Unless that's your gig, you know? You
Stacy: Yeah, that's true.
John: might be your, you know,
Stacy: That's a good point.
John: like, I, I do think there's a certain branding that happens with clothes that, you know,
Stacy: Good point. Good point.
John: yeah. If you're pitching something in that, that or that world, like, I don't know, that's, that's
valid.

Drew: Yeah.
John: And,
Stacy: Cool.
John: you want, you know, ideally, like, you want them to wanna invite you to a barbecue
someday,
Drew: Yeah. you know what
Stacy: Yeah.
John: um, or to, yeah, to, to go to the, you know, the dozens of, you know, notes, calls and stuff.
Like, you know, you don't wanna show up and be like, you know, if they're like, oh, you know,
what could be cool is, you know, a little this, like, if you, if you jump right to, uh.
been thinking, you know, I've been thinking about this for years. Like, there's nothing, no idea
you'll come up with, I haven't already thought of and rejected.
Stacy: Mm.
John: guy, it's just never, you know, you're not gonna sell this thing.
Stacy: So collaborative right from the get go.
John: collaborative and kind and open, you know, open and just having a conversation.
You know, the more conversational, the better, I think.
Drew: Yeah, I would agree. And the more like that small talk at the beginning of the pitch with
the actual buyers, I think like. Embrace that. Like,
you know, if they're, you know, not rushing you along to get to the pitch so they can get outta
there and they're asking you, you know, where you live and if you have kids and all that stuff.
Like, you know, really, you know, spend the time in the small talk zone with them, you know, um,
as much as you can. 'cause they're trying to get to know you and what. What you're about and
you know, what's important to you and you know what kind of person you are. And I think that's
a really important part of the pitch that isn't really part of the pitch, but it is.
And that's, um, something not to, you know, uh, ignore or, you know, um, or sell short on that
front.
John: Yeah, we got that advice early on. Like, don't, don't start the pitch until they say like, okay,
well let's hear it,
Drew: Yeah, exactly.
Stacy: Mm.
John: don't leap. Right. To like, okay, you ready? You know, like if, if they wanna be human
beings for a little while and connect with you as a human being, like take, like, don't leap over
that.
That

Drew: Yeah.
John: a, really critical Yeah. Piece of this.
Drew: Yeah. They're
asking you those questions for a reason. Uh, they really are. It may seem like small talk, but
they're actually, you know, trying to get to know who you are, and I think that's, uh, really, really
important.
Stacy: I feel like it can also, um, if you can remember the details they said, uh, you know, not to
be manipulative, but it can lead to pleasant follow ups. You don't wanna follow up. It's not like
you've had one pitch with somebody and all of a sudden you're sending them an email a day.
That would be insane. But if you want to, like, I've definitely done it where in the small talk, you
know, the person says something like, oh, I can't wait for this movie to come out.
I love rom-coms. And then it comes out a week later and I, and I see it and I send them a thing
like, ah, you were right. It was so good. Whatever, you know, like a little, a little pleasant follow
up, maybe one,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: And then, you know, and you can also, um, I like to write, uh, write things down
afterward.
I have a bad memory, so I'll write down what the person was like, what we talked about just a
little bit. And then, you know, if you see them again in a couple of years, you can, you know,
bring something up. You
Drew: Yeah.
that is really helpful.
I try to do the same thing, put some of those personal details in, in my contact in my computer
just so I can, you know, come back to it at a future date. 'cause it's hard. What do you meet A
lot of people. It's hard to keep everyone straight.
John: it is, it is. One other thing too that can be really helpful is, uh, whoever helped you set the
meeting, whether it's an agent, manager, producer, if you could ask them to find out or have an
assistant, have someone, find out who you're gonna be pitching to specifically, and if you, you
know. Like, then look up, you know, this person's name and the network, you will usually be able
to get a bio of them online and get some sense of who you're pitching to.
Like it, you know, it does a couple things. It humanizes them in your own mind. You can, know, a
little bit about, so, and there might be, you know, certain connections that you're like, oh my
God, they went to the same college I went to. Or they, you know, they went to, um, they're a part
of this thing. I, you know, this charity I love, or, you know, whatever.
Stacy: Mm.
John: there, there might be something. You realize, um, that, you know, connects the two of you
and you know that that can be a part of the humanization? You know, the, know, I have to say,
one of my, one of my realizations over the course of this has been when I go into a pitch, like,
please think I'm good at this.

You know, please, you know, when, when I go in seeking approval, I get quite stressed out when
I go in seeking connection with the people. Like, Hey, I'm, you know. I'm here in these people's
lives for an hour. Like I'm gonna try and connect with them and just have a human experience
with people. I don't know.
Uh, when I'm focused in that direction, I, it tends to go a lot better and
Drew: Yeah.
John: enjoy the process a lot more myself.
Stacy: much more relaxing.
John: Yeah.
Drew: I find, I mean, you know, just talking about the vibe of the pitch, I, we find the most
relaxing versions of these are the ones where it does become more conversational with the
buyer, where they start, you know, sometimes they'll ask a question and you may have that in
your pitch, but you're not, you know, you're 10 minutes away from that and you're like, oh, this is
my outline and this is my order, and I don't wanna stray from that because that's what I
prepared.
And then. They say, well, what about this thing? And like instead of saying, oh, I'll get to that.
Just, you know, I think embrace the, like shuffling the deck a little bit and answer that question,
then be like, oh, we we're gonna get to that. But you know, since you asked, let's, you know, let's
talk about that and then try to, in your head, go back to kind of where you left off.
And like, you know, sometimes, you know, earlier in our career that would stress us out if
someone kind of like threw
a, threw a curve ball in the middle of the pitch that forced us kind of off the outline. But with
some experience, I think we learned that that is the best version of the pitch. When they're
engaged and they're asking you questions, even if it's like throwing your outline right out the
window.
Those are always the best pitches. Like the worst pitches in my, in my view, are the ones where
you just, I. Literally go through your outline exactly rehearsed, and you just have a bunch of, you
know, eyes, eyeballs blinking at you the whole time without a single question and without a
single, you know, comment.
Uh, those are really stressful 'cause you really feel like you're on stage, you're feeling the
audience straight right across the table from you just staring at you. Um,
you know, so so, tried. Anything you can to kind of evoke a conversational feeling in the pitch, I
think is really super helpful.
John: That's great.
Stacy: I go, I go for more, for more of the saz. Like I'm putting on a little show. Here's my little
show. So you saying that? I'm like, no, no, don't, no, don't talk. No. One time I went in, I pitched
something twice. I went in. It was like a general, that led to me sort of throwing out an idea and
in the room we yed about it and then she said, well bring it back when it's fully developed.
So like a month later, I brought back. The fully developed thing, I got the advice, or maybe I
gave it to myself of like, she'll have forgotten, take her through all the steps again, blah, blah,
blah. And so I am saying some of the things I said a month ago, I'm pitching some of the things,

same things. And she's like, yeah, no, I remember that.
I be like, oh no. Oh, I should have embraced that. More casual, conversational, but yeah,
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: that's great advice. But I have to tell you, I don't like that advice.
Drew: I know it's hard. It, John and I usually have kind of a, um, a system where if a question,
you know, gets the curve, ball comes, you know, midstream, John will chase that curve ball and
like answer all the questions and
I'll kind of flag like, you know, where we were in the pitch so I
can kind of like.
Stacy: that.
Drew: us back around at some point and be like, okay, you know, you know, we kinda skipped
over, you know, some, some, some thoughts we had about the tone of this piece and we'd like
to, you know, make sure to go back to that. You know, you kind of
find your way back to where, where you left off and then you can kind of know what you've
already covered that you can skip over and just, but it does require you to go off script and kind
of, you
know, um, but if you can kind of come in and out of your script a little bit, um.
In those kind of pitches, but the energy of that room when they're asking a ton of questions is
just great. Now, on the flip side, we once had like someone who was on our side of the table
who was a producer, who kept like jumping in and taking it wildly off course and into like deeper
sections of the pitch and just kind of someone who just talked, talked to talk, and uh, um. That
was very challenging. And we had to have like, you know, a, a conversation, you know, internally
after saying, Hey, that's not really helpful when you do that. And, uh, um, so like that, you
know, that wasn't helpful, but that was kind of coming from within, you know, from within
our Self-inflicted.
Yeah. And it was different.
It would happened like two different pitches and it was totally different both times. Like, oh my
God, I
can't, I can't track it. And uh,
uh.
John: getting, you know, feedback from the buyers. Like, oh, you know, they like it, but they felt
like it was a little scattered. And we're like, yeah, 'cause
Drew: Because
the guy's
John: to

Drew: us. Yeah.
John: dude, I know we're not like perfect pitchers, but like, give us a chance to get through it.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: And so I think sometimes those conversations and yeah.
Drew as you were saying, like, oh, sometimes they ask a question, we veer off course. And my,
in my mind I was like, oh, drew will get us back on it. Like, that's exactly, I'm like. I, I love the wild
styling, just like riff, you know, talking through stuff and just going all over the place. Drew's
drew, you're,
Drew: you're better
John: like, remembering to get back to like, I dunno, drew, drew tends to, um, be more
disciplined than I am in that, in that
Drew: I think I'm naturally more like you Stacey. Like I want it to be orderly and like, you know.
Um,
Stacy: but I, but I wrote
Drew: yeah, but I wrote that,
Stacy: I, I worked so hard. Look at this.
John: yeah.
Drew: but man, we had one pitch
that was, uh. The studio was with Fox, was the studio, and they had convinced us to kind of
basically write the pilot in a pitch, you know, and kind of pitch the whole pilot kind of scene by
scene, by scene. And that was excruciating. It was like a.
Stacy: Ah,
Drew: was like an hour long pitch and it was just
John and I bouncing back and forth going through the whole pilot scene by scene, by scene.
And it did ultimately sell. So like it, it was, it worked. But I found those, like on the morning we
had one of a pitch. I remember one day we had two of 'em. I was like, oh my God, I just can't, I
don't even
know if I'm gonna live through this day. I just
John: Yeah,
Drew: wait for this day to be over. And
um, yeah,

it's.
John: was the second one of those that day, right? The second one of those is the one that sold
because it was like we're just, our stress had just been exhausted.
Drew: it's true. It's true. It it, it's true. That was, we were kind of just loosened up, but
you know, sometimes you're five minutes in and the, you know, John and I ponging back and
forth. I'm like, oh my God, no one here is listening to anything.
They've all tuned down and we have like 40 minutes to go, oh
god.
Stacy: talk about that. Let's talk about weird listeners.
Drew: Weird.
Stacy: didn't you guys have somebody on the floor?
John: no, that was, uh, uh, we had, we had in one of our early pitches, uh, manager at the time
said, uh. Just so you know, this person may get up and go check emails, mid pitch, may like
read, you know, like do other stuff. Like just keep going. Don't worry. That doesn't mean
anything. That's just how they are sometimes.
And uh, I had a friend who had a pitch with a high level, you know, director, and he was told like,
Hey, just so you know, like there's a chance. director, you know, while you're pitching may, you
know, pick up a guitar and lay on the floor and strum the guitar.
Stacy: Ugh,
John: just, Just,
Stacy: nightmare.
John: yeah, just pretend like that's not, and I mean, you know, God loved the assistant for
giving the heads up on that,
Drew: Yeah.
John: I could see being in there and being like, what the hell? Like, is like,
Stacy: Hmm
John: this, you know, is this a cruel joke? Like, what is this? Um.
Stacy: Hmm.
John: you know, he sold that. And, uh, we sold the one, you know, with
Drew: Yeah, it's true.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know,

Stacy: Oh, don't be worried if you get bad energy too. I shouldn't even say bad energy, but
skeptical energy. Or if the people either during it or afterwards seem to be poking holes into
what you're doing. Like, are you sure? Is this too that? Is it too cartoony? Is it too like. I think we
said that in a recent episode that a lot of times it's when they're asking difficult questions and
pushing, that means they're actually interested.
They're
actually kicking the tires
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: they're thinking about it. And the person who tells you That was fantastic. We love it. Um,
it's probably not gonna lead, you know,
maybe it's gonna lead to a sale,
but probably not.
John: Often the death nail, you know, is when they're like. You pitched that great, you know,
really
Drew: well done.
John: You're like, oh, that's dead.
Drew: That's a no.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that's a
Drew: a no,
John: you know, most likely. And, and I mean, here's the ironic thing is like when I'm honest with
myself before pitches, I'm like, I'd rather do a great job pitching and feel good about myself and
have it not sell, then fumble a pitch and have it sell anyway.
And I know that's so wrong. That's like obviously like. The wrong priority. And yet at the same
time, emotionally, that's what actually I feel like
Stacy: Yeah.
John: is, you know, I'd rather do my part well and
Drew: Yeah, I get that.
John: what I want,
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: get that.
John: and then, you know, at the end of the pitch, you know, there's a world in which they throw
in some, like, have you considered, You know, doing this, uh, as a, you know, present day story,

not set in the, you know, 5,000 bc and you might be like, well, but that's the point of the show is
it's set in 5,000 bc. some of those things, you know, that circumstance that, that might be worth
saying, you know, if that's actually the case.
And sometimes like, yeah, we considered it like if it's honest, you know, we considered that this
is the reason we chose that time period. I think it's worth having a, an open conversation and if
you're like, well, actually the time period's not in that important. the importance is the character's
journey and so we could make it present day, but, I don't know, like
Stacy: You could probably split the difference and reiterate what you love about the choice you
made, but. but express that you're open-minded to it, of like, the thing we loved about the 5,000
BC is just that it's kind of gritty and raw and real, and it's an interesting space that not people
don't really know about, but are fascinated by.
But we could sort of take, you know, I that's an interesting idea, what you said about the present.
Like, I wonder if we could take some of that same feeling and bring that into the present.
You know,
Drew: Yeah,
John: good.
Drew: that is good.
Stacy: you
could also, along those, uh, lines of that kind of language, that sort of collaborative. Hey, I'm
gonna be cool to work with and we are in fact going to be making this together, uh, language.
You guys have said to me that in pitches, you like saying, and it's something I've adopted from
you using language.
Like we see this as a blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, what's the other one? We see this as a, we love
the idea of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So that's not saying, that's not absolute language. It's not saying this is a dark comedy. uh, you
know, pickleball saying we love the idea of this being a premium elevated dark comedy about
pickleball.
We see this as a, you know, so it's, it's saying that you've got a vision and you're confident, but
it's, it, it implies that it's a flexible vision and that there's room for them. You know, it's, it's
basically expressing the truth, which is, Hey, this is still just an idea. This is not,
you know, it's not a complete thing.
Drew: Yeah,
John: Yeah, it's
Drew: it's,
John: not an ultimatum,
Drew: yeah.
Stacy: Yeah.

John: you know, like, this must be, you know, bold. This must be, you
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you
Stacy: It's not a manifesto. Yeah.
John: It's not a manifesto. right, well, let's, uh, in summary, like
Stacy: Oh, wait, I, I have a couple. No, I have a couple more questions. How,
how long?
Drew: Well, how
long for the pitch?
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: less than an
Drew: Less than an hour. Yeah, closer to a half hour. If you
can be there and.
Stacy: 20 to 30,
Drew: It.
Yeah. 38, you know,
30. And then you're going to inevitably spend another, you know, 20 minutes on top of that,
30, you know, in The chitchat and the,
Stacy: but that's
Drew: they'll have
Stacy: and the questions
Drew: questions afterwards. Totally. And
if you, you know, visuals do. do.
you know, help so much in terms of trying to convey what you think the show will look like? And I
think trying to, as much as you're kind of putting their head into the story Yes. But also into like,
what does the show look like? What will the experience of watching it be like? Um, that tends to
be a real good conversation.
Part of the pitch when you start
talking about the visuals and you know, what insp, you know, inspirations you have for the
visual, you know, the visual look and feel and, Color and shooting style and all of that can really
help put them into the experience of watching the show. And that's, I find to be like the best

conversational part of the pitch, typically.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: are we just talking to? Who was talking about Craig Brewer, who is a recent guest of
ours? Wonderful guest, and saying that he played. Music during his
Drew: Oh yeah, someone did tell
us that. No.
Stacy: else we just had a meeting with.
John: talking about, oh yeah, we just, you know, we
Stacy: Oh yeah.
John: and uh, yeah, he was playing music to give a vibe of
Stacy: Yeah. And it worked.
Drew: Yeah.
John: and they
Stacy: Yeah.
John: And, uh, you know, I, I, It's one thing if you're Craig Brewer and you're like, okay, he, he's
got a whole vibe.
Like, you
Stacy: known for music.
Drew: Yeah.
John: known and he's known to these buyers, you know, very specifically. Like if you're showing
up and you're gonna reinvent the wheel with a pitch, like it could work. It could work.
Drew: Yeah.
John: that could be a great way to go. But you know, just gimmicks generally can, I mean,
we've heard of pitches though, where people are playing characters and doing things like that.
Like we've heard of, people try all kinds of things and some of 'em really work and become like,
oh my God, these people are amazing pitchers. If you have a two hour pitch, don't do that. you
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: won't, get called back for a second pitch, you know, time.
Like, really time it out. Like do it in your
Stacy: Nice.

John: or in your, you know, time it out. Make sure, it's two hours, but it's so good. You know, like
you will, they will never have you back.
Drew: Yeah.
John: and, uh, and it, it's, yeah, I don't know. It's important to
Drew: If you have, and if you have material, like we had one limited series that we had kind of a
fairly decent breakdown of all eight episodes of what each of the episodes would be like. And it
was in our series document that we were giving them. So we didn't, you know, in the pitch,
bother to go through like, okay, episode one, this is what happens episode two.
Like you'll lose them pretty quickly. It's like,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: know, but mention, you know, hey, you know, in the series document we, we took a crack
at, you know. Breaking the eight episodes and what each one would be about. And of course
when we get in the room, things might change a little. And you know, we're open to, you know,
you know, changes.
But, you know, just to give you a sense, it's in there. And, uh, I think just alluding to what, you
know, might be in the information that you've given them, you know, any written word you've
given them to, to, to consider, uh, is worth mentioning. But don't, you don't need to, you know,
double down on all of that in the room.
John: Cool. All right. So, uh, you know, talk through the pitch process, uh, today and, you know,
it's a difficult process. It's, you know, if you're a writer, you're probably introverted. It's going to be
a bit of a stretch, you know, potentially, um, unless you, you know, came up as an actor or
something and love it.
but even still like, it, it's, it, it's a stretch and it's a. Um, it's very rewarding pretty necessary.
Stacy: It is necessary. Yeah.
John: yeah, it's a skill worth cultivating, even if it's not, you know, something you love, you'll,
you'll get better at it. And, um, I'll say tip of the week, don't wear a, a hot shirt. Do you guys have
one? You guys wanna throw in a tip of the
Drew: Um,
get plenty of sleep before those days. 'cause
uh,
John: that's
Drew: you know, sometimes you'll be tempted to like, oh, I'm not quite done rehearsing and I'm
still kind of working on it and I'm gonna stay up late. And that's always a mistake. Get a lot of
sleep.
Um, come, come very well rested. Yeah.
Stacy: Mine is, uh, congratulate yourself and reward yourself. Really like. When you leave, go
to the bathroom, whatever, a private moment, like literally pat yourself on the back. Literally give
yourself a hug and give a little triumph arms and give yourself a high five and just say, you did it

cause nobody else is gonna,
and give yourself a little, if it's a hot coffee or a glass of wine, or a hot bath or whatever it is, give
yourself a little treat to look forward to afterward because you know you deserve it just for
getting out there and pitching.
Drew: That's great, and next week we'll get more into like what, what, you know, the contents of
a great pitch typically look like and,
and kind of provide some insight on that front. I.
Stacy: If you
like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us wherever you get your
podcasts. And please tell a friend about us. And I don't know, I, I heard we're doing well on
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Thank you so much.
We appreciate you being here.
Drew: Thanks
so much.
John: Thanks so much. See you
Stacy: Bye.