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John: All right, Stacy, you wanna take it away?
Stacy: Let's go, let's go, let's go. Let's track. This one isn't as good as the other one. Ready?
Let's go. Let's go. Let's go to the show. What show Yoho? It's the show Runners Show Show.
Nelson: I think there should be a separate show about how to write these jingles for a show.
John: I know,
Stacy: a dream come true.
John: I know. This is all Stacy does. Like she, you know, yeah. She
writes shingles
Stacy: a record deal. I'm gonna go on tour across, across the world. Think in Japan, just singing
these jingles. That's it.

John: Well, welcome to this showrunner show where every week we demystify some aspect of
the job of show running for anyone who works in tv who wants to work in TV or just wants to
know how it's all made. Uh, this week we're talking with Nelson Grieves, and we're talking about
rewriting, which Nelson. You know, joined us on Joe Pickett season two, and is maybe the best
rewriter of anyone I've ever worked
Nelson: no, don't
John: No. No. Okay. No, but Nelson. Is able to, I don't know, sort of cut to the heart of things
and reshape, like you see the before and after of what Nelson does. Like, he's really great at
this and feel like so good at, uh, talking about the art of writing. So yeah, we wanted to talk that
through with you and just how you, I don't know how you go about it.
What are you looking for specifically when you start a, like someone gives you an outliner script.
What, what is the, what do you look for first?
Nelson: Well, I think for me personally, it starts even before the rewriting. You know, I think push
me into, uh, A different place if, if this isn't what you wanna talk about. But, are we talking about
sort of the entire process of a script being rewritten? Um, so from the time a writer turns in a first
draft till the time a script gets delivered to production, is that sort of what you wanna talk about?
John: I, I,
Stacy: Do you wanna leave outlines out of it then?
Nelson: Well, we're not gonna, we don't have to. Just, just the revision, you know, speaking of
revision as opposed to rewriting, is that sort of the idea?
John: yeah. Let's talk. Yeah, exactly.
Nelson: so I mean, I think per that, the, and we don't have to talk about outlines, but when a
script comes in, I think the most important thing. Is, um, well, I don't know.

It's the most important. A very, very important thing is I personally believe letting the writers have
a chance to do a. A revision of what they've done. I think there are a lot of showrunners who,
really just like to take it away at the moment that, they do. And you know, there's a lot of different
reasons for that.
Some people really feel like, uh, you know, they just do a lot more writing. They really feel like
they wanna have a lot more ownership of, of the scripts and, you know, just have them much
more closely come from them. Which is all, you know, none of these are judgment judgements.
This is,
Stacy: We hate those people.
Nelson: But, uh, if you have time, because again, sometimes you don't have time. One of the
reasons why sometimes writers don't get to rewrite their own things is cuz they're just, there's no
time for that. We gotta go straight straight to it. But if you have time, I think there's a lot of value
in just giving notes first.
And, uh, you know, a, a thing that, uh, we did on pick at a process that, uh, Really liked was
basically giving notes and then just hopping on Zoom and be like, let's go through all of these
notes because, you know, these are things I wrote in between who knows, like, you know,
maybe our morning, you know, I, I, I quickly read this in, you know, while on lunch because I
gotta do another thing in the morning and, you know, remember running the room and, you
know, uh, so a lot of the thoughts that went through my head might not necessarily have made
it.
On to the paper in my notes, you know? Um, and I also think that notes when you just get the
text can seem very, um, like. Judgmental or angry. Um, you know, when you're just reading, you
know, and you're trying to get into the, the person, you know, the showrunner's head of the note
of like, oh my God, why didn't they say this?
They just said this. And it's like, oh, because they were distracted by something. But like, you
take something as a very personal affront, um, that wasn't that at all. And so, you know, giving,
sort of sending notes over, be like, let's go on Zoom. Let's go through all of these. Um, and
going through
notes and
Stacy: even sent it up the chain, right? This is just the writer had their first draft, sent it to you.
This is a, a process just between the two of you and, and then later you'll kick it up. Great.
Thank you
Nelson: yeah. Um, and going through and being like, okay, so, you know, here's my first note.
This is what this note meant. Let me give you context for that note. Um, and sometimes I read
that. I'm like, oh, and by the way, that's right. I had this other note. About this that I forgot to put
into a note. Uh, and so, you know, being able to like sort of talk through, okay, these are the
various things.
This is what I meant by these notes. Now you have like an understanding of it. Go and rewrite
and come back.
John: I love that. And it gives the writer the chance too, to be like, oh, I was, oh, I see you took it
this way or that point didn't get across what I intended was this other thing over here. And it can
be more like, oh, that's a gr. Like I love that intention. Maybe we could make that more clear by
doing this.
Like it becomes this, I don't know, collaborative. Chance for the, the writer to learn too. Like, you
know, it's, it's one thing to see your thing rewritten and try to figure out the logic of one thing to

the next. And it's another thing to be the hands on the keyboard and internalize, you know, how
do reshape something or, you know,
Nelson: Completely.
Stacy: Especially if the show's gonna run for a while and you're hoping, hoping, hoping they
stay with it. Do you know what I mean? If they never get a chance to rewrite the main
character's voice, how are they gonna get better at it? And if you're hoping they're gonna be
there for, if you're got your fingers crossed for a season four or five and six, you know, it'd be
nice if they learn how to write in the tone of the show, write in the, the voices of the show.
John: Yeah.
Nelson: No, completely. And that's also a good chance. You know, I think that one of the things
that is like a more delicate thing to address is like writing style. And I think especially with
younger writers, like, you know, there's sort of, sometimes there's like baggage you're bringing
in. That is, um, you know, is, is overly stylistic or, you know, not just sort of the language of, of
TV writing and, you know, there's just, you learn lessons along the way and you know, in some
ways it's like, I do think it's kind of true that the longer you do tv it's very possible for your voice
to get like diluted.
Um, and sort of when you become very good at imitating. Everyone else's voice. I think it is hard
sometimes to be like, oh, right, but what is my voice? What, how do I write when I'm, you know?
But that said, this is the job. So if you do, if you are doing the job, it is your voice, you're, you're,
uh, responsibility to, to, to imitate and stuff.
And so that's a chance to very gently be like, Hey, you know? And when you're writing, you
know, like I, I have a thing about ad uh, adverbs, which is like, adverbs are like, Almost always, I
think, unnecessary. Um, but definitely there should never be two of them, you know, um, for a
single verb. And, you know, I think this is something, you know, and prose, prose is completely
different.
It's like prose is about like the dance of the words and like, you know, like that stuff matters so
much. And I do think there's an element of that in, in writing action. Um, and by action, and I just
mean everything that isn't dialogue. Um, In scripts. Um, but, you know, it, it's, that's kind of a
very mean thing to come across in a written note, you know?
it feels like criticizing as opposed to like, Hey, you know, here's I think how you could do this
more efficiently and stuff. but getting that, giving them back to a writer, say, Hey, here's a
reasonable amount of time. Get it back to me. During that time, not too long, I think. You know,
it's like if you give them too long, I think it increases the likelihood that then you get back
resembles what you want less.
Because, you know, if there's too much time to go rethink through everything and rebreak stuff,
uh, then that can be a problem. But like, you know, here's a reasonable amount of time and get
it back to me in, in whatever shape it's in. And then at that point, you know, looking at it and. Uh,
you know, as a showrunner or you know, as you know, number two, who's ever doing this?
it's the balance of how do I really keep what this writer has done, and really like make sure I'm
not losing the unique things that this writer has brought. While, you know, functionally bringing
this in line with the tone of the show, you know, correcting the character's voices. Sort of, you
know, a lot of it is kind of cleaning up and building out.
So, um, you know, sometimes it's like scenes just aren't quite everything they, they need to be.
And so it's like finding what are the additional moments, um, that are happening here. Um, and
sometimes it's like things are just a little bit messy and, you know, the longer you do it knowing,

okay, here are the things to trim, you know, like actually the scene should end.
Four couplets earlier, you know, and like we can tell the story in the cut. We don't need to take
the scene all the way to the end. TV unlock movies, there's, there's TV kind of flows in this way
that, that is different than, than screenwriting.
Stacy: What do you mean by tell the story in the cut?
Nelson: Tell the story and the cut. I mean, we don't need to see characters make up the
decision.
They can be like in the room. It's like, okay, what are we gonna do? And then you can cut to the
people on the subway and we understand, oh, what they decided to do was go on the subway.
We don't have to see them be like, you know what, let's take the subway. Um, and you know,
you can even do extreme versions of that in, in TV that.
If you kind of step back and look at 'em objectively, don't make any sense, but like, you know,
often it's like you're getting right to the moment where you get the last bit of information you
need and then you cut away to the next thing.
John: Yeah, comedy, I feel like that's a, uh, very often in comedy, like I would never, ever do this
thing cut to them doing that thing or whatever. You know, there's, that's a, I feel like a, a comedy
trope that always works.
Nelson: exactly. And you know, the, so it's like, it's a lot of that and, and those are lessons that
you really just learn doing the job a lot or you are a brilliant kin who has internalized all these
lessons, um, before you've ever done the job.
John: there's, and there's no way, like I, I would say, you know, in rewriting so much of it is
momentum, you know, the momentum of structure to, to your point, like, I think like. You know,
to start the scene at the start of the scene. Not like someone shows up and then they have to go
up, do a whole preamble before the scene starts.
Like either there's conflict right off the top in that, or, you know, sort of starting the scene in the
scene, you know what I mean? Like, or cliff hangers, you know, not repeating exposition, we
already know, you know, things like that. The, and I feel like so much of that, Once you've gone
through the process of editorial too, a couple times, like, and you see things in the cut and
you're like, oh my God, this episode drags.
How do we, how do we pace this up? And we're like, oh, we could start the scene halfway
through the scene here and end the scene, you know, three lines earlier and let the audience
play the game of like keeping up as opposed to like, I think there's a tendency to wanna explain
and like make sure everyone knows everything.
In the, in the script stage. Uh, but then in editorial it's like all these like lines and moments we've
tortured. It's like in editorial you're like, okay, that's gone and that's gone. You know what I
mean? And there's just like the preciousness when a scene isn't working just evaporates. You
know what I mean?
It's like, oh gosh, this scene doesn't work. What can we do to give it life? And usually the answer
is, It's funny, usually the answer in screen, in television writing, if some, uh, if something's not
working, usually the answer is slow it down, build it out more. And in post, usually the answer is
cut it, cut it down, and make, make it shorter.
Stacy: I remember you were working with, uh, TAC, Fuji Moda, the DP on Devil, and you guys
shot some opening to a scene that was just gorgeous. It was so beautiful, and it was before
anyone spoke a line of dialogue. It was like, you know, beautiful shot land on the actress. You

began to speak and afterward you were like, TAC that was just gorgeous.
And he was like, yeah, that's the first thing you're gonna cut. And, and you were like, never, you
know,
John: was like, I would never cut that.
It's so beautiful
Stacy: and it gets cut and it's sort of like, oh, that's,
John: he's like, when? When the movie's too long, it's the first thing you're gonna cut. And he
was right. Yeah. He was totally right. He knew he is shot enough of those beautiful moments,
you know.
Stacy: And I think it's true that like if you're gonna have. If a moment is special enough or funny
enough or beautiful enough that you really, really wanna save it, you gotta put it in the meat of
the scene. It can't be some, you know, little preamble of like, good to see you. Thanks so much.
Have a seat.
How's the weather? Pretty nice. No, let's get to the conflict. You know, like, my God, don't make
that the gorgeous shot. It's just gonna go.
John: it's true.
Nelson: I would say even though with. With that. You always have to be ready to murder any
moment, no matter how dear you hold it. And I think, you know, that is like a real value that
someone else rewriting you can bring is like, you know, and I do this in my writing all the time. I
feel like I'm, I'm. Terribly cursed by having darlings.
Um, but it's like you have things that are just So, and they can be objectively great. You
know, they can be like, wow, this is such a great moment. But it's just like, but you know
what? I've been trying to make this whole scene work around keeping this moment as
opposed to if I just kill this moment, then the whole scene can be what it is.
And you know, maybe the scene should not be, maybe the scene should be two lines. And
you know, I've been having the scene be bigger because I love this moment, but it's like that's
not actually what, what is serving the, story. And
Stacy: I keep accidentally writing like Franken scenes because in the room, you know, it's not
like you talk about a scene once in the room, you got a specific scene, you're talking about it for
days, sometimes over weeks. And during that time people throw out fun little pieces of dialogue,
right? And you write 'em down, writers system writes 'em down, and then by the end you got this
one scene that has these.
Three great lines, right? But maybe the lines are all doing the, the same thing. Maybe it's like the
thing the heroine says before she drops the mic and leaves the room. I will kill myself to like
stick those three lines in and I write the entire scene based on like, okay, how the fuck I keep
swearing too much?
How can I have these three lines? And I completely forget to think about like, what is the scene?
How do people get into it? What do they want? What's the objective? What's the conflict? How
do they get out? And I'm doing everything as though these are like. Three little gems that I
wanna set in a beautiful ring setting, and that's not the point at all.
And and they always end up going,

John: Stacy tends to like really think things through and then write like ve. Very specifically, I
tend to like just write like what, you know what I mean? Like sort of do it, uh, just say wing it.
Like I'll write something five times. You know what I mean? Um, and so I, I feel like I tend to be
like, oh, let's throw this out.
Let's throw that out. Let's kill this. Um,
Stacy: I feel just the opposite. I'm like, if I wanted to write something else, I would've written
something else. So I don't wanna get rid of this and put in something else, because if I wanted
to do that, I would've done it already, you know?
John: Yeah, but it's, it's so funny. I feel like the job of like television or show like. I feel like so
much of the job is rewrites, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like that's of the value of, I guess,
show running. I'd say like, you know, 75% of that value is the ability to rewrite to, you know, to
diagnose what's, what is or isn't working in a scene, what you know, or what is or isn't working in
the structure of an episode or, um, and, and then did.
Be able to articulate what needs to change to, you know what I mean? To fix that. Like I feel like
that's such a, such like the big key, even more than writing, even more than being able to write
from scratch. I feel like that rewriting skill is so important and I feel like as a new writer, it's so
tempting to be like, I don't want to be rewritten.
I wanna write this perfectly and have like, When in fact the process of like taking notes and
having smart people giving you notes and helping you through some of that rewrite, like that
might be more valuable than the actual writing of the episodes to begin with.
Nelson: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, there's the old adage, which I, I do think is very true of
like, writing is rewriting. But I think with, there's another old adage, which I also think is true, is
that like you make a movie or you, you, any, any filmed content you make three times. You write
it once or you know, when you write it on paper, you write it again when you shoot it, and you
write it again in post.
Um, and it's really, you know, having that full experience and understanding how much things
change and understanding, you know, I remember early on. Um, I, there was this joke that I
loved and I was like, I just, like, I worked the whole scene around keeping this joke in and then
the actor couldn't deliver it.
And I remember being on set, just being like, tearing my hair out of like, ah, This guy, it's like he
just doesn't know how to deliver this, this joke. And like he had an accent and it just like, he
couldn't put the emphasis on the right and you know, it was like, so then we had to like, you
know, quickly put, put something else there.
But like, but I think the, you know what you're saying of being like a shepherd of the story and
really knowing how to hold onto what the story is. And I think what the characters like, you know,
journey is, I think. That being your job as a showrunner is to guide that through the entire
process and everything moves around that as opposed to pieces that, you know, you try to fit,
try to fit the story around those.
It's like you're with characters and you're holding onto their emotional centers, and it's your job
to, to man those through the stormy waters of the creation of an episode of
John: I love that.
Stacy: What was the joke?
Nelson: I don't even remember. I don't even

Stacy: me completely outta context. Vito,
John: I gotta say, yeah, like so, so often comedy, like certain actors can just crush those lines
and some just can't. And it's like to realize, I remember I did a movie, you know, A couple where
I like wrote all these quippy lines for one character, and then the person just can't do them. And
it's just like, oh, oh.
I guess they're the, they're the serious sidekick, not the funny sidekick I planned on. You know
what I mean?
It's like, oh, like
Stacy: I was with a sketch comedy group for years, and we wrote all, you know, we wrote all our
own stuff and we were very of the opinion of like, there's only one way to deliver this line. It was
written this way. This is how you deliver it. That's it. It's, you know, and then, and then to, um, to
write for TV and hand those lines over.
And in my mind, I, I still feel the same. There's only one way to say this and then going, oh, no,
that's not true at all. First of all, The actor may or may not have accurately remembered the
written line, and then there's a million ways to deliver it. There's even a million funny ways to
deliver something, but, uh, it could be all over the place and a lot of times actors maybe just
don't want to do something like I.
Maybe they don't, maybe the actor doesn't like looking surprised. I think actors a lot of times,
um, don't wanna look dumb, uh, because they've been mistreated by directors and editors in the
past, and so they're protecting their careers a little bit. And so, you know, but maybe the writer
wants them to look surprised or dumb or shocked or whatever.
And anyway, so there can be some resistance there. I have to say. Um, I had this kind of
overwhelming experience with season one of Joe Pickett, of David Allen Greer. He. I wrote a
bunch of lines that he said and when he did them, I'm like, that, that, that's exactly what was in
my head. And he was literally the only person who did it.
Exactly. You know? Anyway, it was a thrill.
John: Well, it's funny seeing, like in, uh, our kids showed up to watch the filming of this scene
where David Allen Greer gets up on stage and he's talking. And our daughter, you know, was
like, wow, he sounds just like mom, you know? It's like David Allen Greer, like channeling Stacy
from the stage. And uh, and he did, he did.
He, it was really, it was so funny. Those two are kindred spirits, you
Stacy: he said applesauce, like a swear word. That's something I wrote in like, oh, applesauce.
Like, oh hell, you know, but just, oh, apple sauce. I think that's just delightful. And he delivered it.
So delightfully, you know, adverb, uh,
John: he's amazing. looping back to rewrites, you know, what do you focus on first? Do you
focus on structure first? Dialogue first. story like what's, or do you just kind of do it all at once?
Nelson: Yeah, I mean, it's a very unsatisfying answer if I, I sort of, I do it the same way I do with
mine, which is I. And, uh, completely. I'm a little here, a little here, a little here, a little here. Uh,
you know, I start by reading the thing. Um, and I think often as I read, I will cut dialogue. Um, is
the, you know, I guess that's a fair, one of the first things I do is I, I cut.
So I go through and, you know, I think honestly I probably have a habit of overcut and. I often
find myself going back and pulling some stuff that I cut, um, back from old drafts. Uh, but going
through and just, you know, there's fat, there's trimming fat, and you know, it's like if you don't

lose it now you're gonna lose it in post.
Um, and going through and doing that first, um, you know, I think. After that, probably I build out
slug lines. So, you know, there was like a, one of the picket scripts specifically, there was sort of
this big, big event happening and, um, you know, the, the writer as you know, as we'd broken it,
but it had been all in a single, all under a single slug.
And so, you know, taking it, and rather than trying to give the note, Of like, okay, there should be
a slug here, there should be a slug here. You know, it's like, let the writer go and, and write me
the scene and write me emotionally the things that's happening, and then I can come in and do
the sort of grunt to or more technical stuff that I'm gonna be, you know, more particular about, of
like, okay, let's, let's map, you know, in this like crazy attack thing, let's actually map how this is
happening.
And you know, Do. Um, I don't wanna say like, do the hard work as if the writer wasn't worried to
do that. But it's like, there was a particular way I knew I was, knew it was gonna just be easier
for me to leave it for me than to like try to communicate something that ultimately is a good
lesson to learn and something good for someone to look at and be like, okay, I can learn from
how this happened.
Um, uh, so I would say that's the second big thing. And, you know, the final thing is I think the,
the rewriting itself, the. Making stuff better, trying to come up with trying to punch things. Um,
and you know, I do think it's a common thing, at least for me, is it's like I'll have deleted
something and try to write something better and I can't, and I'll just be like, you know what, the
thing they'd written originally was better than, you know, I aspired for something better, but I, I
failed.
And, and actually they, um, they got it. So, um, so I think that's, you know, that's sort of the, the
process for
John: Yeah. Well, I'll say too, I feel like that humility, like to have the humility of going like, I cut
this, I wanted to write something better. I don't like what I wrote better. I'm putting that like, I feel
like that is one of the big keys to rewrites to is just to, you know, I don't know, like to, to not be
like, I'm gonna put all my stuff in this.
Because my, you know what I mean? Like my writing is, or whatever, like to, to have that like
best idea wins mentality versus my ideas is best y you know what I mean? And I think that really,
I don't know that that's a great way to approach rewrites.
Nelson: for sure. And I think it's like, you know, I, I think about, it's like when it's your show, it's
like every word is yours. So, you know, it's like you get to, you know, I think being able to be like,
no, no, no. If I use their better line, that's good for me. Like, I'm, I'm the gatekeeper of all of this
stuff, and I'm choosing what to send through the gate.
And so it's like, you know, it reflects good on me to use the best thing and to not just have my
stuff in, because no matter what, everyone's gonna think it's all yours anyway. You know, people
don't, you know, people don't, you know, I mean, when, when you get to super fans and stuff,
people definitely do, but it's like when people talk about lost, you know, I.
It's like people aren't talking about like, uh, you know who Exactly. It's like, you know, it's like
Damon Lindel, you know, it's like at the Leftovers. It's like people aren't like, oh my gosh, this
writer on your day. It's like, no. It's like, this is Damon Lindelof. And so, you know, and he
obviously has very, very talented writers he's working with, um, to make these things happen.
But, uh, but it's like he gets all the credit, so there's no point in. Making it worse just for your own
ego, uh, because you have nothing to gain from that cuz you, you gain it all or you, you get all

the success and you get all the failure. Um, when it's, when it's the show you create.
John: That's great. When you, when you were talking too about, you know, cutting like
sometimes good stuff like Drew and I like to say the quality of the finished product is equal to the
quality of the scenes you were willing to cut to get there. You know what I mean? Like, if you're
willing to cut amazing se like Drew and I on our, uh, season one of Waco, We, uh, because we
were inexperienced, uh, people kept telling us our scripts were long.
We're like, no, they're not. No, they're not. This is gonna go by so fast. And we had
to, uh, we had 45 minute episodes and our first cuts were 73 minutes long. And it was like, oh,
they're going to kill us. They're gonna kill. We spent millions of dollars shooting stuff, like 10 tens
of millions of dollars of stuff shooting stuff that we don't have space for.
And we're like, Do we try to expand it, take it episodes, and that didn't work. That didn't make
any sense. So it just became this like fire drill of like, okay, how can we get the most, the most
across in the least number of scenes? And, you know, one of those was, and one of the things
we, you know, we actually did this a lot in the writer's room, was, uh, the idea that if it had one of
the two leads in a scene, any scene goes, you know, but if neither the two, you know, Main
people were in a scene if the, I guess this gets a little in the weeds, but like, you know, on the
call sheet, it's like the, the number one is your lead and the number two is your second lead.
And, and then sort of goes, you know, but if the number of the two people in a scene, um,
equals more than 10, if the sum of those numbers, uh, then that scene has to die. And, you
know, we cut so much outta the writer's room based on, you know, You know, the, you know,
number 10 character and number 15 character.
And it was a great scene, but because it wasn't one of the leads, you know, that, that became,
you know, a litmus test for us early on is don't write too many scenes. You can do a few, but
don't write too many scenes between people who are. Deep on the call sheet.
Um, and I would say from an experience too, like don't give the monologue to the day player.
Like if there's someone, a new person shows up into a scene that you've never met and delivers
like half a page dialog, it's gonna be somebody who may not be at the level that your leads are,
your leads, you know their strengths, and you can write to those,
Stacy: Although we gave a monologue to a day player in season two of Joe Pickett and she
crushed it.
John: She crushed it. She crushed it. But you, we
Stacy: But that was necessary. That was
Nelson: you're rolling the dice.
Stacy: for that particular story. That wasn't the norm. That was a, and yeah, it was rolling the
dice.
John: And we spent a lot of time making sure, like we really focused on that as if we were
Stacy: You didn't just see like two actors ago. Fine. Good enough.
John: Yeah. That's a dangerous one that, you know, some of those are things, you know,
through experience you learn like, oh, I wrote this amazing se, you know, sequence for a date
player and watched it die in front of me and then die in post.

And
you, Yeah,
totally. I have a question for you guys, cuz I've never been the top rewriter, I've never been the
top advisor. do you try to create uniformity? In the actions, in the non dialogue stuff, obviously
the dialogue, you want to feel representative of every episode of the show. So it all feels like the
same show.
Stacy: But some people have a very, in terms of like the actions and the, and the, the stuff that's
not dialogue, um, people have very different styles, you know, do you try to edit it so there's just
one style. Um, or are you like, well this isn't gonna show up on screen anyway. You know, if this,
this is just informing, this is giving information to the costumer and the actors and the dp, but it's
not gonna show up on screen.
So do you let it just play out? You know, some people, I've noticed, some people, uh, are very
theatrical with their actions. Very, they put a lot of humor in and they put a lot of style into the
actions. Do you try to. Get rid of that. So it matches the, the tone of the actions of every episode,
or do you let it be original?
Nelson: I, I mean, for me, uh, the, you know, it, it's a little bit in between. I think. It's like, I, I don't
really care about, you know, I feel like people use punctuation very differently. I mean, I, I know I
certainly use it in a crazy, I feel like the way I write is like Emily Dickinson poems where I'm just
like using dashes in ways that people have never, never even heard of.
And I, you know, I think, I hope it's like, you know, it's sort of an emotional, intuitive way of
writing, even though, you know, an English professor would be pulling their hair out. Um, for me
it's like anything that's distracting. So, you know, like I said, with like adverbs, it's like sometimes
it's like there are a bunch of adverbs in here.
And it's like, we don't need these adverbs. It's, it's just confusing. The read. We can just lift that
out, you know? Or like layers of unnecessary detail that are adding length to the script that isn't,
you know, um, that is necessary. Or, you know, sometimes, you know, I think people will write,
um, you know, like in the middle of a dialogue thing, let's say like, Joe looks on, you know,
longingly and Mary Beth says, Joe, what's wrong?
And then, then it's like, Mary Beth knows there's something wrong, like her heart is burning for
like, to say the true answer, but like, she cannot say it. You know, as well as like, no, no, no. Just
do parenthetical like, wants to know the answer, whatever, you know? I mean, that's, that's like a
terrible, but you know, it's like the, the floweriness, if it's, if it's distracting from the read, uh, cuz
you know, it's like a script is a functional document.
A script is a, a document to give to a director to get them, give to a director, actors and
production in order to get them to create things for you to put on screen. And so anything that's
taken away from that, you know, I think is, is stuff to, to live. But in terms of trying to make things
uniform for the sake of it being uniform, I, for me,
Stacy: kind of sounds like what you're saying is it can stay original and doesn't have to be
uniform as long as it's good. But if something's like a PU or you know that that all has to go,
John: Well, I'd say good. Good is maybe a like, you know, a ju judgment, you know what I
mean? Like, sometimes something can be good, but in a different style that, like I'll say, you
know, sometimes like visually, you know, you look at a script. And you can see like from, you
know, I, I would say too, you know, if you're in a room and you're like to make sure your script
visually looks like other script, like there's some where it's like little bit of dialogue and then a
description this long and it's just blocks a text and you're like, you can tell just from looking at it

like, oh, this is, this is written like a novel.
It's, it's going to, uh, be either too long or too short when you actually shoot it. And, you know,
there's all these things where sometimes just visually, if you see, like, you can see chunks of
description that are like, like I try to, I try to keep all my descriptions like, you know, a line or two,
you know what I mean?
And just keep it real simple and just keep it moving and,
Stacy: I think we all do that, that it's a game that we play with ourselves of like if I just get rid of
that half sentence, or if I just get rid of that clause, I can make this three line thing go to two
lines, or I can make two lines go to one line. I always do that just to keep myself entertained of
like, how tight can I get these things and I'll be willing to lose an adjective to, you know,
John: Yeah. Well, and I'll say too, like just on a basic, you know, marketing standpoint, like once
it goes to the studio, they're gonna see those big chunks of descriptions and be like, oh, this is
gonna be too expensive. You know, cuz usually descriptions dialogue is cheaper than. Action.
You know, because action forces people to move around into different spaces and blocking and
you know, so like just to, you know, visually it looks, you know, two people sitting in a room is the
cheapest scene you can shoot, or two people sitting outside even, you don't even have to light
it.
Then, you know, two people sitting on their front porch talking if there's no rain, but with a rain
cover option in case you know. That is the cheapest scene you can shoot. Whereas you know
somebody, you know, car chase or something like, you know, and a car chase is all description,
you know, it's not, you know, I mean it might be like, look, uh, they're coming, you know, but it's
gonna be mostly description.
And so description equals money in studio, you know, to the studio. So I think just having that,
you know, and then, and then you'll see, you know, some actors will try to like, I know stay.
Sometimes you have a very specific way you want the actors to deliver the line. You try to put
coded messages in the, in the scene descriptions to get
actors to do it Exactly with,
Stacy: it's so true.
John: she fights back a tear and looks up to the right and, you know, like you, you'll wanna like
get really specific like
that just to like try to trick them into doing it the way you
see it in your mind.
Stacy: It's because I have all these fantasies. I'm like, if only I were the director and I worked on
the kind of shows where we have table reads, and then I could be like, no, no. How about like
this? Or I think the comedy isn't this, you know, and going like, oh, that's never gonna happen.
I'm never gonna, and really, I just wanna, in fact, recently I was like, could I make a musical
where I just do it in front of a Zoom camera and I play all the parts?
That's actually what I wanna do, you know?
John: Yeah, totally,
Stacy: I'm trying to do it through, I mean, I have so many parentheticals in my dialogue. It's just
ridiculous. Nelson, you probably spent half year, year last year just deleting.

Nelson: I wanted to jump back, uh, John, as something you said earlier though, um, the idea of,
uh, you know, when you were talking about the number of, you know, adding up the people's call
numbers on there, um, the call sheet and making sure scenes are worth it, a lesson I learned
early on.
Um, this was also something I learned from, from Chris Vak, um, showing I was, uh, uh, singing
the praises of, uh, in, in the last episode. Um, was I, he'd given me something, something I'd
written to, to rewrite and it was like three pages over. Um, and he, he wanted me to cut out three
pages. And being young, I was sort of going and I was like, okay, how can I shorten?
And I was like taking a look at all the scenes and sort of shortening every scene. And in doing
so, I was basically making all the dialogue down to, its like most basic, You know, functional
thing. And I was like losing all the character and I gave it back to him and he was like, great,
thanks. And then when the script got published, um, I saw he, he kept almost everything I'd
written.
He just cut scenes, you know, or he cut a scene in half. So it's like, don't make things worse.
Like scenes still have to be great and entertaining and, um, but it's like, The way to cut is to cut
things, not to like squeeze the life out of something. Um, which I think is a very, very valuable
lesson. Um, you know, and, and that's not to say there isn't trimming to do, uh, in dialogue, but
like knowing the difference between trimming the fat in something, um, and cutting it down cuz
you're trying to save pages so you're losing the whole point of,
John: I love that. Yeah. Cutting scenes, big chunks, cut the action sequence, cut the, you know,
whatever like that, as opposed to like cutting the flavor out. Like I love that. I, I think that's a
great, I dunno, great thing to keep, be mindful of because it is, that, that's what gives you, like,
gives you the human connection to characters and stuff is some of the downbeat moments.
And if you just cut out. Every downbeat moment or every, you know, the quiet moments like,
yeah. Then it's just, it just feels like, uh, one thing after another at some point.
Stacy: I wanted to jump to say, Nelson. One thing I noticed about how you rewrite from, uh, last
season we were working together is I feel like you always remember that the scene work should
be about a scene. That the scene should be about something where the characters want
something rather than just being where the writer.
Want something. So I would write things where I thought the dialogue was really fun. So it was
really just two characters bouncing fun dialogue back and forth. And you'd be like, uh, no, no.
Somebody has to want something. They have to be trying to get it. They're not just there to
throw out one liners, like, oh yeah, good, you didn't say that, but that's what, you know, the
rewrite would come back as, Or you know, a lot of times you get into those scenes and you're
like, oh shit, this is gonna be a tough one.
I have to have people rush into the police station, give a lot of exposition, trade some clues and
some exposition and run out. You know, that's what I, the writer have to do. But like, oh, but the
characters have to do something too. Like why are they rushing in to trade exposition? You
know? And I feel like your rewrites were always really good at that.
You were always good at remembering the characters have to want something and. The
characters have to lead it, not the writer.
John: when so often too, the when delivering exposition, Like, I, I think the best trick is make it
an argument like, we need to like go after the thing. Like, no, we can't do that for this reason.
Like, well, you're not trying very hard to do your job. Like, well, you don't know like what you're
talking, like you can get a lot of exposition out if it's a fight, um, or uh, uh, negotiation of.

Yeah. Or a negotiation of some kind, whereas like, just exposition, like, or, or it's delivered, you
know, while like running for your life. Like, you know what I mean? Like you're, you know, I
mean, I guess that can be a form of conflict too. Like we need to like, get to the thing or it's
gonna explode and kill us all.
Like, you know, you can deliver exposition when running, running for your life or as a fight. Um,
or both.
Stacy: good old walk and talk. My absolute favorite walk and talk.
John: Yeah, but just exposition in a walk and talk is, you know, like just death, you know.
Stacy: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, it's a lot better than not walking.
John: Yeah, no, I, unless there's some sort of conflict though, you know what I mean? Like a
walk and talk. Like, let me tell you about how things, you know, you know, started. Right. You
know what I mean? Like, unless somebody's challenging them or arguing, I, I feel like that even
can just walk to me, uh, may not be enough to give that sparkle of, uh, um, momentum to
exposition.
Nelson: Well, and I think the, one of the things discovering is it's so often you just don't need all
the exposition you think you need.
Stacy: mm.
Nelson: you know, so often it's like what you actually just need is for another character to learn
that exposition. And so I think especially in like crime mystery things, it's like so much of those
stories are about.
People learning different pieces of information and information traveling between people. And
so, you know, often that's like on the first thing you write it and it just becomes a bunch of people
telling other people things that the audience has already heard. And it's like, I, I try to, you know,
live by a rule of like, you never, you never say something the audience already knows.
And so, you know, having, getting to be fresh eyes and rewriting as opposed to, you know, a
writer is like in it and they're, you know, they're in the trenches trying to figure this out, being like,
okay, you know what, they can just come into the police station and they say, you know, like,
pick it. What are you doing here?
And then you can cut, and now you're inside the chief's office. Or the sheriff, I guess, and picket.
Um, you know, and we've skipped the entire thing and now we're just at the very, very end of
that conversation, you know, where they're gonna, you know, put the clues together and stuff.
Um,
Stacy: noticed, doctor, we notice.
Nelson: doctor, we notice,
Stacy: Yeah,
John: uh,
Nelson: is that a reference?
I don't get.

John: yeah. What, what, uh, Kate McKinnon did this, uh, doctor we
Stacy: know it is.
Nelson: Oh, oh, okay.
John: uh, in, on Saturday Night Live. Like we notice. We notice
Nelson: Yeah. Oh, I gotcha.
John: she played and. I have this thing that I put my glasses on when I'm not wearing them. He,
he has a little mustache and, and I was left. That's doctor we noticed.
I keep him on my writing desk and I'm like, you know, I was, I was left a little too long by myself
and in Calgary and I, he was my, he was my companion. He and I had a thin out.
Nelson: Wilson. Yeah.
John: was my Wilson and I had to thin out all these scripts and, and that was, you know, I went
through and it's like, what, what does the audience know?
And, you know, I tend to write a piece of exposition in a couple places and it's like, oh, if this
scene doesn't work, we can still do it there. Or I, I do that parsley by design, you know what I
mean? When I'm, when I'm, you know, writing something, uh, and Par, you know, and Parsley,
you know. Sometimes it's just like, oh, that's repetitious.
We don't need to see this twice. And we'll trust the audience to remember stuff. Um,
Stacy: That can happen for exposition, but I feel like it can also happen for character
interactions like with Waco, the aftermath, you know? Um, There's this like slow seduction that
rolled out over a couple of episodes and it was supposed to roll out over three episodes. And
you get the feeling that this woman who's in her late sixties, early seventies, might fancy this
young man who's in his early twenties and they're, you know, we kind of slowly built out this like,
are they flirting?
Is this leading to something? And then, you know, a big kiss reveal and then you actually see it,
you see the actress and she just with one line is like, Vernon, can I see you in my room? And
you're like, oh, they're gonna have sex. You know, it took, it took one look and you're like, oh,
but, but another actress who wasn't as good, it might have taken, you know what I mean?
But you don't, you can't tell until, until you shoot it.
John: Yeah. And that's so much of it. You, you know, so one of the things I remember, you
know, Steve Shabos, like early on, like, you know, I'd send him everything I wrote and he'd give
notes and it was so helpful to, but there was all these things like, you know, instead of the meet
cute moment being like a whole scene, he'd be like, dude, you can do this.
It was just a look, you know, cut to a closeup. He looks at her, she looks at him, they kind of
smile and look away. Done. Like that's a whole scene you can do just in the fabric of something
else happening. And there was just those, you know, little moments like that where I'm like, oh,
you can, you can lean on the cinema of certain moments if it's shot.
Right. And you know, and if the actors are good and I feel like there's all these scenes, you write
into a script that I, you know, I call scaffolding scenes, like you've written it, you've maybe even
shot it, and the actors have internalized that's what this means. That's where this is going.

And sometimes in their performance, because they've internalized these scenes, they give you
enough of those, you know, Clues or hints that you don't actually need all the scenes, you can
sort of take away the, you know, play Jenga and pull out a bunch of the pieces. And, you know,
because the actors have, like, you can learn a lot from the subtle hints an actor can give you.
And it's, it's hard to write with that in mind,
Nelson: Yeah. Well I think it's also, it's a hard lesson to learn also, unless you've been there on
set and watched it happen and then been there and post and looked on it and you know, it's like
the more that kind of experience you have, I think it's like the more you can trust that it's like, oh,
this is a thing that's capable.
You know? And I think it's, you know, one of the reasons why it's so important for writers to be
able to go to set and produce their own episode, which, uh, As we all know, we have a giant
labor action currently happening, uh, to try to, to try to address that. But, uh, you know, it's, it
really, it's like it goes back to being like a script is just the first part of a fluid thing that continues
until you deliver the, deliver the thing that it's, um, it's all of a single piece and you're writing the
whole time.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: this week, uh, instead of the rapid fire four with Nelson. Cause we did that last week.
Nelson: Right. I was like, oh no. Do I have to come up with my favorite movie show again?
John: no, we're gonna do a rapid fire four with Stacy, who hasn't
Nelson: Oh.
John: before.
Stacy: I haven't done it yet. I'm
John: So yeah, four questions we ask every week. What is the first television show you truly
loved and why?
Stacy: Okay, I'm gonna go all the way back to childhood. On Friday nights, there was a block, it
was the love boat, and then it went into Fantasy island. And so I grew up in the suburbs and it
was nice and it was safe and stuff. So like Friday nights we'd be playing, you know, kick the can
or flashlight tag or whatever, but we would all drop everything and rush back to watch the Love
Boat Fantasy Island block.
And Fantasy Island was so late that I would fall asleep during it. Um, but that's the first time I
ever had like excitement about shows of like, let's go see this show. And even though, I mean,
have you seen them? They're just, they're so cheesy. If you go back and watch one, you're like,
but you know, I was like, probably six.
So it was probably just right for a six year old's intellect. But I will say they had the same kind of
balance that I love. Today they had like a little adventure and a little romance and a little
comedy. And I still love that kind of writing, like the new Jumanji or Romancing the Stone or
Tootsie or you know, like something like a, I still love a well-balanced movie or TV show.
And those were in their own very corny way. Well balanced.
John: Yeah,

Nelson: Just a quick. Were Did you actually play kick the can? Like were you kicking actual
cans? Is that Yes. Okay.
John: Uh, not only did she, not only did she play kick the can, she loves trying to get our kids to
play kick the can to a point that, that's like a family joke is like, oh, mom's always trying to get us
to kick the can. Like whatever that is,
Stacy: That's a whole joke And Diary of a Wimpy Kid too. Have you guys read those? Diary of a
Wimpy Kid Books are so hysterical. They're so funny. And the yeah, the Wimpy Kid character is
like, ah, my parents are always talking about Kick the Can like it's so true.
John: It's so
Stacy: great game. Great game.
John: Okay, number two. What is your favorite part of the job?
Stacy: My favorite part of the job is imagining using my imagination. I love it. And one of the fun
things about being a writer is you can do it all the time. Yes, certainly. There's like you sitting in
front of a keyboard and you're writing or you sitting in front of index cards, but there's also like
what you're thinking about on the dog walk and what you're thinking about when you fall asleep
and what you're thinking about as you drive the car.
Like that's all. Writing, and that's kind of the part I like most, whether it's in the room or by myself
or, um, my first part of the writing process is always to do voice memos. Like it's not, my first part
of writing is just an idea that I speak out loud and then later I go and type it in. That's how I like
to do it.
And I'll have hundreds of voice memos. So that's my favorite, that creation imagination.
John: What is the part of the job that costs you something?
Stacy: Ironically, it's rewriting. I, uh, first of all, no being rewritten. I hate. Being rewritten, like I'm
pretty lazy and I'm not super ambitious. So really, if I had my Dr a little bit, a little bit like
personality wise, I think I'd be inclined to be like, I just wanna be a co-producer forever. I just
wanna ride this trade.
I don't need all that headaches and responsibility. But then I was like, oh, I have to climb to a
certain level in the hierarchy of writing, otherwise I will be rewritten and I hate. Being rewritten,
like I don't cry. I'm not a crier. I, when I get rewritten, I just cry my eyes out.
Nelson: Well, as someone who has rewritten you, I, I now
John: Nelson.
Nelson: feeling weight of guilt, uh, sitting on my shoulders, imagining you in shower, crying.
How she goes from complimenting me to.
Stacy: It's true. True. But then, but then the problem is I also don't enjoy rewriting. I. Myself, I
love the first time it comes out. I love when I come up with an idea and I love when I say it in the
voice memo, and I love when I write it for the first time, and then when I write it like maybe the
second time, it's okay.
By the time I'm writing something like the 18th time, I was like, damn, I wish I were a coal miner.
It'd be so much more interesting than being a writer. It just gets so boring that it's, yeah. So I
don't like rewriting. I know writing is rewriting, but I wish it weren't. I just wanna do improv,

everything. Mm.
John: Uh, if you had a time machine, what one piece of advice would you give yourself when
you started your television journey? I.
Stacy: I would tell myself to just go ahead and get in a room earlier, because I was, I think I
mentioned earlier in this episode that, you know, I was an actor. I did sketch comedy for a lot of
times, and, and people would say like, do you wanna get in a room? Is that something, is that a
goal of yours? And I'd say, Would I be free to leave to audition?
They'd be like, of course not. Like, well then I don't wanna be in a room, you know? And it didn't
occur to me like, oh, I could write my own stuff. I could do my own, or I could try to, you know?
Um, so I avoided being in rooms. And also I, I, I, I still feel this way, but I felt it really strongly
before. I'm so scared of being trapped.
You hear those war stories about, um, I have a friend whose husband wrote on Joey, you know,
which was the, what's it called? The follow up to
John: spin us. Yeah.
Stacy: spinoff, and she said her husband was in that room until 11:00 PM every night. Those
were the good nights. They were there till 11:00 PM He had children he never saw.
And I'm like, for Joey, You know, you know what I mean? So I was
John: That's harsh.
Stacy: I never even saw Joey. I love friends. Joey was probably fine. That actor's amazing. It
was probably good. You can, I've tried to see it. You, I don't think you can see it now, but, uh, I
was so scared of having a boss who gave me insane hours that I just avoided the whole thing.
So I wasn't in my first room until I was in my late forties. So I think I'd just go back and be like,
Hey, why don't you do it in your twenties when, you know, I don't know. I'd say I'd do it earlier,
but you know, life is long. You can join things late. It's fine.
John: Yeah, I think you can find out which rooms, you know, different rooms have different, like
we tend to, you know, be like a 10 to four kind of, you
Stacy: Yeah.
John: environment where it's pretty reasonable and other people are the same, where it's not all
11:00 PM like more hours. Writing does not necessarily equal.
What's that?
Nelson: I've never had a room like that. I had a room that would go to seven regularly. But, um,
I also think room times have come down. In general, I feel like post covid, everyone's kind of in
like, yeah, maybe we just stay in rooms less long, uh, even in person rooms. Um, which, uh, I
think is good.
It's show up, do the job more efficiently, and you don't spend an hour and a half talking about
where you're gonna go for lunch type of thing.
John: yeah, yeah. And have more time to be a human being and have the kind of experiences
you can write about, you know?

Stacy: Yes, that's it. I would never wanna stop being a person to be a worker. That's just, that's
not me. I'm not a workaholic. But by the way, the first time I ever did try to get into a room and I
wasn't even trying to get in a room, it was like a side hustle kind of thing. I had a friend who was
directing episodes of the Man Show.
Do you guys remember The man show where the girls would jump in bikinis on trampolines?
Nelson: yeah.
Stacy: my friend and I, my friend and I who wrote Sketch comedy at the time, we submitted
some sketches to them of like, do, and their response was, it's just not man Show material
Nelson: Yeah.
Stacy: was like, wow. Ouch.
John: thanks for, uh, doing those days. And Nelson, thank you so much. Yeah, really, uh, such a
pleasure talking with you and
Nelson: you guys as well.
John: Cool. All right. Mm-hmm.
Stacy: Tip of the hat.
Nelson: Off to pick it. See you guys.