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Stacy: here comes a bouncy one. If there's a show on the television And you're the one with the perfect vision For how to write it, and shoot it, and cut it in post Then you could be a show runner The show runner show Thank you
John: Nice. That was great.
Stacy: There's a, there's a 10 percent chance I've already done that one.
I found it like deep in my voice memos. I don't think so, but 10 percent chance people are like,
John: I don't, I don't remember it.
Stacy: old, chestnut? Welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of showrunning. For anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or who just wants to know how it's all made.
I'm Stacey Shabosky. Yay!
John: and we're so glad you're here. So last week, last week we talked about the cost of a career in, in writing. Uh, this week we wanted to talk about the benefits of a job in writing and why. with the costs associated, would you want to consider doing this?
And, uh, obviously if you're listening to this, you're already considering it or doing it.
there's so many reasons. Yeah. Stay. So what's your favorite?
Stacy: My very favorite thing, I think I've said this before, is just getting to use my imagination. Like I really take a lot of pleasure in daydreaming and coming up with stuff and you get paid for it. To actually be paid to use your imagination is Yeah, and to spend a lot of your time, like, yes, there are practical things, like things need to be shot on a real location and you're really talking to real actual people.
There's a lot to the job that is... Actual, but a lot of it is just in your mind. A lot of it is just thoughts and words and images. And, and I really enjoy that.
John: I love. Express, like, like writing something I care about or writing something that I'm, you know, I've experienced in my own life and putting that into a character or into a scene and seeing that touch other people and other people react emotionally to things
I felt or observed,
um, feels like, you know, in our early days with horror films, it'd be in a movie theater and see people like jump in, like having reactions like that.
And then, you know, since then, like, you know, I've seen, you know, Like, men tear up at certain, uh, lines I've written and stuff like that.
And it just, it means so much to be like, Oh, I, I feel seen,
which I, I know it sounds kind of silly. But, um, but
I, I think
Stacy: that's why you got into writing. You came from more of a, I think I come from more of like a, Ooh, fun. And I think you came from more of an emotional. Place with it. That it's, you know, it
John: yeah.
Stacy: writing began for you as a, like a form of therapy almost.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: And, you still, you've always liked to exist on that emotional plane with your work.
John: That's, yeah, you're absolutely right. It was a way of, for me originally, you know, like 14 learning to deal with, you know, you know, parents like messy divorce and just, uh, you know, all the, the complications of that in
my life and my siblings lives and, and just trying to, were sort of raised silent in a way as kids in my family, we were just expected to like.
Just go get A's, you know, like succeed, but like, uh, don't have problems. Uh,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: what I mean? And, and so writing became my, my way of, uh, I don't know, just staying sane, you
know, um, and, uh,
Stacy: it that way, too, of saying, like, don't have problems, it's like writing is problems, you
John: yeah,
Stacy: writing is conflict and characters in difficult situations and the ones you like, you know, overcome it or sometimes they don't, you know,
John: yeah,
Stacy: pretty cool.
John: it's cool. And, uh, you know, I, so much of writing is putting characters in precarious situations and then helping. them find ways of getting out of those. And there's something so therapeutic, like, I would say just generally, like writing in a writer's room with other writers, there's a real group, like group therapy aspect to it.
It's, it, It's, like one part summer camp and it's one part group therapy.
And, and that's so fun to like do a hard thing with a group of people that You know, some of them you've, you've never met before.
And now we're getting real. We're talking about like, Oh man, when I was a kid, you know, my parents forgot me at this place for, you know, a day or, you know what I
mean?
Or whatever those, whatever those things are that like inform you as a person that you may not have told. To, you know, some of your closest friends in
the world, like, but you have this, you know, small group of people who are all, you know, soft hearted artists, uh,
also who are willing to get deep and go into like, and, and that may, that may not be the, you know, the tone of a comedy writer's room, um, or it
might, you know,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: I've heard not.
Stacy: of a lot of happy, successful rooms, though, that like that level of talking, listening, sharing, and then, you know, sometimes just to share, but sometimes to use it, to use something from your real life and maybe morph it a little so you don't insult anyone in your real life by,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: them into a character or a moment or something.
John: Yeah,
Stacy: that's really a big part of the job.
John: that is.
Stacy: many jobs where sitting around yakking and sharing Are integral to it.
John: Yeah, it's true. And it's, I'd say, you know, in one of the big, one of my favorite things too is no two days are alike. You know, it's never,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: know, you may have the same hours for a period of time, but then you'll move on to a different, you know, show and, you know, totally different hours, totally different people.
Um, it's not like the same. I would guess some jobs are you show up, you have, you know, the same people you're in, you're out surrounding you and, um, becomes a very predictable, set of, you know, things you do over the course of a day or a week. Um, maybe, maybe I'm naive in that way, but,
Stacy: I
John: um,
Stacy: jobs are pretty predictable. I'm guessing. I don't
John: Yeah.
Whereas, you know, you may be, uh, you know, planning the perfect murder on Tuesday and then on Wednesday, you're, you know, figuring out like creative ways to solve, you know, solve the crime for the, you know, and then, you know, Friday, like, you know, a character, coming up with a good reason for a family to split up and, you know, or whatever, like, it's like every day is this like weird new challenge.
Stacy: Mm.
John: And, and then, you know, how to get scripts in on time, how to manage the machine of, uh, that it's like every day is like a, you know, a bunch of puzzles, like
of different kinds, you know, of time puzzles, money puzzles, script puzzles, story puzzles, you know, personnel puzzles, like, And I find that really thrilling.
Yeah.
Stacy: longer you can stay focused, the better the day goes and the more of your ideas get put in the show. You know, like you can sort of see, um, like I am not a teacher. I don't have a teacher personality. A lot of my closest friends are teachers.
Um, so I felt like I should be able to do that, but I really can't. That's not, that's not my thing, but I have a real student personality. Like. to do this thing where say I'm in a seminar or a lecture or anything, I mean it can even be like jury duty, whatever. I like to be the person who's very still and very focused.
Just like, I like to make the teacher look at me. You know what I mean? That's such a weird thing to say but it's true, it's true. And they do, they end up basically teaching the class to me. So that sort of focus of like, oh I can do this, I can sit in this chair for six hours, let's go. You know, it's fun to do that.
I will say. Stuff like, you know, social media, the phone, all that is chipping away at it. And I can feel my own focus and my ability to, to stay in a deep focus zone, getting smaller and smaller. But rooms, uh, when I'm in a room, actively in a room, it builds that muscle, which I really enjoy.
John: true. And I mean, and it's so interesting. Like I find the room is really interesting a lot of the time. Like it's people telling crazy stories or coming up with like, riffing on ideas and just sort of seeing that the. Uh, the way ideas shape, you know, before your eyes and, and you know, what was like this amorphous thing suddenly becomes this really specific, you know, very specific thing.
Like I find that awesome. Like one of my, one of my favorite things in writing is having the moment of stepping onto set and being surrounded by something. I came up with
Stacy: Yes.
John: in, you know, in my, you know, at my desk, like some like weird idea and then finding, you know, six months later, whatever it is, stepping onto set and being like, this is that thing.
Like
Stacy: Right.
John: it's almost like a projection of, you know, my mind has suddenly become reality
and that is a magical, a magical thing that, um, I don't, I don't really know how many jobs have something like that, where you
can actually stand in your imagination.

Stacy: We have a newcomer to the party, Drew Doudle! Woo!
Drew: it's Drew. I'm here a little late. Good to, good to be back.
Stacy: We were just talking about the, the magical feeling of like one of the cool parts of the job is you've thought of something, you've written something, you've talked about it, and then one day you get to step onto set and it's actually there. Like the, the house, the apartment building, the whatever, the carnival is actually there, which I find especially magical when it comes to animals.
One of the happiest days of my life was being on set for Drew, I think you were directing it. Um, it was in the animal. Like on the reservation, the animal sanctuary or whatever, and being like, my God, that's a pelican. That is really a pelican because, because a group of people got together and wrote up a character who works in an animal rescue.
And those are the animals. It's a pelican. Like that's so cool.
Drew: It is truly the most mind blowing thing of all of this. Like, you know, some people work on, you know, scripts or in writers rooms of shows that don't actually end up getting made and it's still, you know, still worth doing and still a good job and like, but the first time you get something made and it's something you wrote and like, seeing the actual physical manifestation of whatever detail that is, like, on a set, is like, so cool.
Stacy: Yeah.
Yeah,
John: totally. Or like, there's just some like some random detail. You just kind of dashed off like, oh, and you know, he pulls up in his Ford Bronco and he does this and it does that. And then you go to set and there's a Ford Bronco and you're like, oh, it's literally exactly what I, you know what I mean?
Like. And somebody had to go get that Ford Bronco and bring it here and there it is, like this power of like, you know, it's almost like, you know, man, it's like, it's like that Mickey Mouse thing where he suddenly has a magic wand and he's just making stuff happen all around him. Like, you know, like one of those very, I typed it and there it is in, in a real life.
Uh, I find that magical every time.
Stacy: The sheer number of people, too, who are in on it, who are like, I showed up very early today because I have agreed to play this big thing of imagination. Like, maybe I'm the person, you know, holding the boom or whatever. But that, you know, when you were a kid, like, John's the older, John's older than Drew and he said, he'd be like, do you want to play?
When they were little, he'd be like, you want to play tag? Drew would be like, no. And John would be like, you want to play Snoopy tag? And he'd go, yeah, as long as he stuck the word Snoopy on it, you know,
John: ha
Stacy: do it. But that's, you know, that feeling when you're a kid and you've got an idea for a game or you've got an idea for a little imagination thing or whatever, and you really want everyone to play with you and to do that thing for your Barbie scenario to be the one that wins out.
To do that at a professional level where you're like, I wrote some Barbie scenarios and there are 400 people here to make it a reality. They're all playing Snoopy tag.
Drew: SoupyTag, the
John: Totally. Ha ha
Drew: those moments of like, total ridiculousness, you know? Like,
on our
John: ha.
Drew: like, No Escape, we
John: It's
Drew: on the roof of a helicopter, you know, of a hotel and like, takes a bunch of people out.
I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous on the page and then to be there on the day, like. Oh my god, we have not only a real helicopter flying around, we have like the body of a helicopter on all these wires held up by a crane on the 10th story rooftop in like, in Thailand and like, where you just look at each other like, can you believe anybody is letting us do this?
This is ridiculous. This is totally ridiculous.
Stacy: Have we told this story?
John: That was the day after we burned down the building, you know, the building.
Stacy: Accidentally.
John: very accidentally, like a, a set building got burned down, you know, due to a mishap, like no one was hurt. Thank God. Um,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: it was like the day after everyone had like, you know, half their gear because it had burned up in the fire.
Drew: everyone's gear smelled like a campfire, you know,
John: Yeah.
Drew: and everything just like reeked of fire.
John: It was like a thousand degrees and there we were like, like, this is crazy.
Drew: This is crazy.
Stacy: It can be when like silliness and playfulness has the power because usually in life, you know, that stuff doesn't get a lot of power, but, but those moments when something big is happening and you're like, he, he, we made something up and, and everyone's like, I, it made me think of, um, have you guys told your rain rig story yet?
I can't remember if we've told that on
the podcast in terms of a moment of something silly imbuing, almost Godlike powers for just a moment. Will you tell that?
Toronto...
John: and you know, one of the things I would do, like, I realized, you know, sometimes when actors are, like, to being kind of chatty and hanging out, like, if you just yell, uh, roll sound, you know, actors go, oh, oh, starting, you know, and so I'd realize, like, you know.
The 80s were kind of just letting it like so I would just start yelling out, you know commands to like kick things out You know into gear we're in this building and there's all these glass windows around Downtown Toronto and we had all these rain rigs because in the in the movie it's supposed to be raining so we had like torrential downpour like on a switch and so, you know, most of the time it's off and we had, you know, the lobby was full of people and, and, uh, I just started yelling out commands like, you know, roll sound, you know, roll cameras, roll rain rigs.
And then I hear everyone in the, in the lobby go, Oh, was like, what? And it turns out
Drew: Toronto
John: a, um, Toronto Maple Leafs game had just let out like right down the street and there was like a thousand people outside and suddenly it's like torrential downpour like out of nowhere and they were like running for their lives like it's like like not a drop of rain torrential downpour and uh and the 80s are like dude what are you doing I was like I didn't know they would actually roll it you know like it didn't occur to me that they would actually do it I was just trying to get things going
you know, they would
Drew: they had let all the pedestrians through just a second before, but in our field of view we couldn't see them yet. I will also add that it was probably about, I don't know, 33 degrees? It was like a degree above
Stacy: Oh!
Drew: cold as hell, November, Toronto, like, you know, just above freezing
John: Oh,
Stacy: So, obviously, we never would have done that on purpose, but it is pretty
funny.
Drew: was
John: Yeah, it was pretty funny. Like I got in some trouble for that. Like I get a little
Stacy: Um,
John: sometimes,
Stacy: yeah.
John: but, it is, it's a silly life in a lot of ways. And it's so, one of my favorite things too, is like you write something that's just ridiculous. There's a, there's a scene in Joe Pickett season one where he tries to help some old ladies get an emu out of their house and the emu attacks them and like keeps, and we wrote this, we just thought it was so funny and it's like, you know, in the pilot.
And, uh, they're like, well, you're never going to be able to get an emote, you know, obviously that'd be so dangerous and, you know, and, you know, like visual effects or like, what if we just get a puppet and we have like, put his hand in a puppet and he can just attack himself with the hand of the puppet.
but then it's like the layers of. Then we have puppeteers and you know to get the feathers right they had to like Gather emu fat like like the levels of serious like business that went into Creating like this ridiculous moment. There's stunt people and there's breakaway furniture And there's there's all these things
Stacy: Hot puppet. Hot puppet on set.
Drew: yeah,
John: totally.
Drew: so many emu meetings
John: Oh Yeah,
Stacy: then in the end, he's pecking his own face and playing it dead straight and killing it. And then you yell cut and everybody's laughing their asses off and it becomes this huge bonding thing. You
know?
Drew: I never, I never laughed so hard on set that Michael Dorman's first take of just pecking the, he just sold it so great and
John: oh
Drew: just killed me. It totally
Stacy: Yeah.
John: so funny. We were just howling and laughter. And anyways, it was one of those early, of the first, you know, scenes we did with, uh, Michael Dorman. And, it was like, Oh, we're like, Oh, I love this guy. You're
Stacy: Yeah.
John: dude is going to be, we're going to love working with this guy. And
Stacy: He got along with the crew. He got along with the crew so, so well. And I wonder if a lot of it was just like, Oh, day one. This guy doesn't take himself too seriously. Like, he's just being hilarious and pecking himself with a puppet. And, you know. I wonder if it was just instant trust.
John: Oh, so funny.
Drew: so funny. I just, those were my favorite days on set. But that's
John: Yeah.
Drew: of like the ridiculous turning into like serious, serious preparation and
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: back to ridiculous again. You know,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Oh, yeah.
Drew: really a fun cycle,
Stacy: Although, the emu feathers are coming from Vancouver. They're coming, you're hearing all about the transport of the emu
feathers.
John: know that they'll be here in time, but hopefully the IMO feathers will arrive.
You know?
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: uh, Fraggle Rock happens to be shooting in Calgary at the same time.
So we got the, you know, the Fraggle Rock puppeteer and like, Oh my
John: Yeah, it's
Drew: it's just our luck. It was
great, you
John: Oh, it was hilarious. Just every step of the way and you know, just so much of it. Like it really is like you're kind of. into staying a child in many ways, like to be a response, like a responsible child, you know
Stacy: Yeah,
John: all the childish playfulness, but the responsibilities of an adult, and that's awesome.
Stacy: yeah,
John: that about our job. Like it never ceases to be. Kind of ridiculous and hilarious and it's an industry full of, you know, people who are very competent, you know, very skilled, have a deep, you know, deep well of craft, you know, are like get their stuff done, but are like children at heart. And
Stacy: mm hmm,
John: nice, uh, space to live in.
Drew: Yeah. And I think for the writers out there that have been in the room, you guys may have already touched on this and apologies if you did, but if you can get. yourself to set and, you know, talk your showrunners into being an on set writer for some portion. It really is just such a great payoff for all the work in the room to see it, to have that experience and to make that part of your ongoing, you know, experience is really, um, could not recommend it more highly.
John: One of the things with this career is like when it pays and that, that's a, that's a caveat, but when it pays, it pays well. And,
Stacy: does,
John: um, that's a, if you can stay working and again, that, you know, that's, we, you know, and one of the costs of the job is it's uncertain.
know, but all jobs, you know, really at the end of the day, like in this, you know, in the modern era, all jobs are uncertain,
Stacy: yeah,
John: can, you may think you have a job at, you know. Chase Bank and you're going to just do this forever. But then they downsize and, you know, let go of thousands of people.
Like you just never know, how certain or not your job is with, with writing and stuff. It's just a little more. Obvious. You know what I mean? You're
Stacy: mm,
John: I have 20 weeks on this job. It'll support me all year. if I do another job, then I'll be able to sock, uh, you know, you know, money away.
Stacy: yeah.
John: if I do three jobs like then I'm, you know, doing great, you know, and it's, uh, you know, it's, it's, it, it does pay well though. When it pays.
Stacy: I'm a huge fan of the emergency fund that, you know, I think what is it for the average person you're supposed to have six months? Is that right? That the, the smart thing to do is have six months worth of whatever your living expense is. If it costs you, you know, 15, 000 a month to live and do all your stuff, you know, 15 times six.
Whatever that is. I don't want to get into it. But, uh, but I think for, in our business, probably better to go with, if you can, like a nine month, uh, safety net. Because there are times you can go a whole year without working.
Drew: Yeah, we
John: Right. Or strike
Drew: for six
Stacy: Yeah, yeah.
Drew: we had Craig Brewer on the podcast a few weeks ago and he's like, know, sometimes the rainy day is, uh, you know, rainy days, you know, and,
John: Yeah,
Drew: and that is true, but, but the flip side of all that, I think too, is like, you do make enough,
the flip side, of that is, uh, you know, I used to work like a finance and it was like, you know. I don't ever get a week, you would never get a week off just like between, you know, the December holidays maybe. And then maybe you have an opportunity to take one other week off in the year.
And the nice thing about these jobs is yeah, you're always trying to like hustle for another job, but inevitably you're going to have a month off here and there. And like,
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: jobs offer that, you know, if you're a parent and like, you know, have young kids and like, you get to actually spend every day with them for a month or two, like that's pretty special and not many jobs offer that.
John: true. And it's it is it is a job unlike, you know many others like, you know with our writers room in our the hours We run in our writers room. We tend to do like a 10 a. m. To 4 p. m. Kind of thing and You know, everyone gets to have dinner with their families, everyone gets to, you know, do drop off with their kids if they
Stacy: Mm hmm.
John: And, if there is a thing like, oh, my, you know, kid has this thing that's really important, could I get out of the writer's room to go do that? Like, we're big fans of that. We believe that that's really, That stuff's really important, and we make the time for that ourselves, like, we still go to the kids, like, you know, publishing parties, you know, for
Stacy: Yeah.
John: stories they've written and stuff like that, and that stuff's important, like, you don't, don't get to live twice, and you don't get to, you know, be with your kids in the house, you know,
Stacy: Yeah. Mm. Mm
John: we find it really important in our rooms to like, Stay human and to be human beings and, uh, like live, you know, a, a reasonable. Life that, you know, isn't asking you to sacrifice everything for this because that's stupid, you know, like the end of the day, the career isn't really going to love you back. You know, you can get a lot of meaning and drive a lot of satisfaction from it, but this isn't the thing that's going to love you back in, in the way that, you know, your family or your, um.
You know your friends and family and you know being a human being will
Stacy: hmm.
John: So yeah, so we're fans of that. That's not always the case with every writers room But that's you know in one of the benefits of a career in writing I'll say once you get into the showrunner spot you can kind of be like, okay, we're going to work from 10 a.
m. to 4 p. m. every day. And, and then people can prepare outside of that. You can set the hours and if you're a maniac and you're like, oh, I, I just never want to ever go home in my entire life. Like I'm just going to work, you know, 20 hour days. Like people will sign up for the hat, but,
Stacy: Mm.
John: that sounds miserable, but, uh, more power to you if that's your jam.
Um, but, uh, once you're the show runner, you can, you know, Drew and I, you know, Have implemented, like, Hey, let's do four day weeks, like when we're not actually shooting or not in a writer's room, let's do four day weeks instead of, you know, five day weeks. And, we still find a lot to do on those days, and I'm sure the, the fifth day we, we actually get caught up on a whole bunch of stuff that we were neglecting.
but still, like we, you know, there is this element where you can. Have some autonomy, some control of your own life in a way that a lot of jobs You're beholden to someone else and coming up in writing you are kind of beholden to someone else, but You can choose the jobs. You try to you know, the show the rooms you try to you know, get into based on Lifestyle if you want.
Stacy: Yeah. At first you're just going to be saying yes, probably, but when you reach a certain level you can... You can find out what the culture's like. And then when you're in the top spot, when you're in the showrunner spot, you can help create the culture, which is really nice of not just about hours, but, um, you know, just making a safe, respectful space. If people have health problems, I feel like there were a lot of health problems on the last show, but, you know, coming out of COVID that that was like a natural thing that to be able to be, um, respectful of people going through real life stuff.
John: Yeah Yeah. Yeah. With that, we'd, we'd like to say like, Oh, this is just, this is just stuff we do while we're, you know, you know, to like spend our days doing something fun. Like health stuff is like real, you know,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that, that, takes priority to any of this. And um, know, if you need a, you're having some issues, you need to be at a doctor.
Like you shouldn't be like, Oh, I'll go to the doc, you know, I'll go to the doctor over the weekend because I really need to be in the writer's room. It's like, no, no, get there. Like if
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you
Stacy: Yeah. I have another, uh, plus. Uh, glamour. There's a certain amount of glamour. It's, you know,
Drew: sure.
Stacy: still impressed by celebrities.
You know it's, it's fun getting to meet fancy people.
Drew: Actors love the writers. Actors love the writer's room. They love the writers. When the writers are on set, they love to get to know them. Like, there's, there's definitely a glamour factor when it comes to cast. And I think, uh, it's unlike, you know, other positions, uh, maybe on the crew where, um, you know, actors.
are very friendly with everybody but like they really have a special soft spot for for the writers and
Stacy: Mmm.
Drew: I think there's just an instant bond between the writers room and the cast.
Stacy: It's cause we're like doing the exact same thing as them, just uglier. We're their ugly doppelganger.
Laughter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: and the camera operator and the writers, you know what I mean? Those are the people they need, you know, like, oh, you know, write me great stuff, you know, like.
Drew: and make me look, like me well, like make me look good. Yeah,
John: Yeah,
Stacy: sure, yeah.
John: Or, you know,
they don't want
Stacy: But you also get to go, go ahead.
John: suit, you know.
Stacy: at the, it always sounds fun. And then the day of, it doesn't feel fun, but then you're there and it is fun. Like parties, events, red carpet stuff. It doesn't happen a lot, but although in certain parts of the industry, it happens all the time, like producers and stuff, I feel like are going to evening events.
And openings all the time. But, that can be, that can be a delight. We went to a party once, uh, the three of us were so intimidated. We just stood there like nyeh, nyeh. But it was some kind of, it was some magazine's Oscar party or whatever. And it was so fun to overhear celebrities talking about other celebrities.
Like, I can't remember who it was, but I think I overheard Tobey Maguire go like, Oh my god, that's Meryl Streep! And you're like, oh
yeah! Like, it was Anne
Hathaway! Yeah!
Drew: is awesome.
Stacy: And then we're standing like four feet away like this. Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Drew: you guys? Yeah.
John: Who invited us here? Like,
Drew: Why are we,
John: did they send this to the wrong people? Like, yeah, it was like, it was like us and like A list celebrities all around. And it was, it was one of those things, like, was this a misfire of email?
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: I kind of, I kind of couldn't wait to go because the whole thing was like, it was more like I just wanted to leave with you guys and go somewhere with, that we could talk about what just happened. You know, the,
John: Oh
Stacy: but glamorous.
Drew: was
John: yeah, it was, it was exciting. And, uh, and it is, and it is the kind of thing, you know, in one of the, you know, costs of the job, you know, um, Drew was saying like how. People have a lot of questions about the job and stuff,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: I'd say on the plus side too, it's like, you know, I'll be in a, you know, be in a conversation with someone and, you know, that I've never met.
And, uh, they'll be like, what do you do? And we tell, you know, I talk a little bit about it and they're like, you know, anything I'd know. And I was like, oh, you know, I worked on this thing, you know, and if they've actually seen something, you know, I've worked on it. it's fun. You know, that, that kind of aspect is fun where they're like, Oh my God, I saw that you did that.
Like,
Stacy: Recognition is nice.
John: yeah, recognition is nice. It feels pretty good to, I'll say, I'll put this at a greater thing, like to feel an impact in the world. Like to,
Stacy: Hmm.
John: like, I wrote this thing it was number one in Trinidad and Tobago, you know what I mean? Like,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know what I mean? Like we won the box office in Trinidad.
Like,
Stacy: Cause They have one theater, and you guys want it
Drew: dater, but
Stacy: still.
John: We played it, you know, it. And
Drew: just can't help but imagine there's an audience in a theater in Trinidad
watching our movie, you know,
Stacy: it's awesome.
Drew: that's so
Stacy: I had a layover recently in the Atlanta airport and I was wearing my Joe Pickett shirt. And I went up to the Delta counter and the woman was like, great show. And I was like, Oh, I write on it. She's like, really? You know? So I got so excited. And then like five minutes later, these teenage girls recognize me from acting in some of the kids shows I used to do, like some Disney shows.
And I have to tell you, I really felt like hot shit. I felt like I fully did. I fully felt
like hot shit.
Drew: I don't know, to get acknowledged for two totally different things, two
Stacy: Yeah,
Drew: professions, even in the
Stacy: I know.
Drew: same place. It's pretty amazing. I know we bought out my wife and I bought a house last summer and not in L. A., but you know, somewhere else. And, uh, the owners of the house, you know, did that thing.
I'm like, oh, anything I would know? And, you know, I mentioned a couple things in our movie, No Escape. Turned out that the husband and wife, it is their favorite movie. They've watched it, like, six times.
Stacy: Stop.
John: Amazing.
Stacy: That's awesome.
Drew: mean, to them, you know, it might as well have been, like, Barbie or Oppenheimer or something, you know?
Like, it was like, in their household, it was the movie. And
Stacy: That's so cool.
Drew: are like, now they're still neighbors, they moved just down the street and they like want to hang out all the time, they're super cool, we like them a lot, and uh, but it's just so fun that, you know, you know, not everybody in the world saw that movie by any stretch, but, you know, when it connects, it connects and it's really fun.
Stacy: I bet when you're really famous, it blows. Like, I bet, I bet being Brad Pitt is hell on earth, but
like
Drew: too much,
Stacy: writers rarely get to, you know, it's like, I'll worry about that. I'll worry about that when I get to it, you know,
John: Yeah,
Stacy: a little recognition's nice.
John: a writer it was when it's Seth Godin says, you know, the, you know, the best spot is to be like 2000 person famous, you know, you
Stacy: For sure. Mm hmm.
John: it's almost like a prison, you know, um. And if nobody's ever heard of you, um, you know, that's great, but you know, it's, there's, there's not a, there's not an upside in that or not, uh, you know, uh, but to be 2000 person famous that then you can, you know, write a book and get a book sold or, you know what I mean?
You can, you can do all this stuff. Um,
Stacy: Hmm.
John: and, uh, it doesn't necessarily fully apply to this, but, uh,
Stacy: Well, being a writer is fun because you can be anonymous. You can be way more than 2000 person famous. I mean, famous in terms of people have recognized, like, I hope more than 2000 people have seen the shows we've written, you know, otherwise we're in real trouble, uh, and yet we're relatively anonymous, well, almost completely anonymous, which is pretty
cool.
Drew: that is the best. That is
John: That is,
Drew: some of the like, you know, actor, you know, people we know that is a tough life. I remember during COVID, you know, just, you know, the ability to wear a mask around was like, change the world for, you know, some of the, from, you know, for celebrities and, you know,
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: that are are very famous like, could like, Go around town and not get spotted at all, you know, for that period of time and like,
Stacy: Wow.
Drew: liked wearing masks, but I think a lot of celebrities really loved that zone because, you know, it changed everything.
You could totally be incognito for the first time in
John: I'll say too, uh, you know, there's that thing, like, I feel like if you're a writer, you know, there's, is very likely that there was probably some moment in your life where were like hectic or traumatic or something, and suddenly life split into, okay, this is the life I'm living, and this is all the ways I want to turn it into like.
And it's like, it almost creates this split and then finding yourself, you know, some years later for me, for me and my journey, like finding myself some years later, able to say the things through characters that I was too scared to say to anyone, you know what I mean? And, and, uh, like. In, in the past, like to grow up and to be able to say these little secret, you know, things to the world
Stacy: Hmm. Mm
John: safe and easy and not easy, but like safe to do,
Stacy: hmm.
John: me, that's one of the greatest joys is like being able to like, all the things or have a character say all the things that I wish I could say, you know what I mean?
Like, I, I'm not being very articulate with
Stacy: No, I think I get it. Yeah,
John: Yeah,
Stacy: it's cool.
John: expression to be able to say, you know, the things you think about or, you know, feel and may not have a, a good way, a good outlet to do that, like to see those come through some of the characters and give expression to, um, I don't know, little, little quiet parts of your, your own soul and, and life I, I find really beautiful.
Yeah.
Stacy: because that sounds almost like sharing like one deep truth for yourself or like deep truth and sharing it. The flip side of the coin I think would be getting to be other people. You know, I love, uh, we've been talking a lot about voice lately, you and I, and getting to speak in other voices, getting to spend a lot of time researching other lives and other, you know, characters, getting to like, uh, pretend to be, I don't know if it's, maybe it's because I'm a Gemini, but that feels very natural to me that to spend a lot of my time thinking about being other people, um, feels really good.
John: Well, in the experimentation of like, Ooh, what would happen if this character met this character and then to sit there and play the game of like, this character might say this and this kid, like, I dunno, those dialogue games, um, really fun too, like the experimentation of like, what would happen if we, you know, put our character in this situation
Stacy: Mm.
John: then playing the game of it, you know, of, uh, don't know, I like the experimentation that like, you know, kind of being a mad scientist, like trying this and a little of that and
Stacy: Mm hmm.
John: um, I find that really fun.
Stacy: And hopefully you're writing clear enough characters that you, you know, you drop 10 of them into the same situation. All 10 of them are going to have 10 different reactions or 10 different ways of expressing it, or, you know, that's super fun.
John: So, know, in, in summary, like, you know, some of the benefits of having a career in writing is like, expression community, like kind of living a life of summer camp and like playfulness, uh, you know, when it, when it's, when things are going great, um, it's really, it can be really fun. There's a group therapy
Stacy: It's interesting.
John: it's interesting, every day is different, um, and it, it can pay really well, uh, it can be inconsistent, but it can pay very well,
Stacy: Yes. Also good union, good, good health insurance, which after, you know, 10 years of using the free clinic, Oh man, health insurance, you know, it's
fantastic.
Drew: what is it, 14 years or 15 years in the WGA and you get insurance for life
Stacy: Ah.
Drew: dependents. Yeah, the WGA is a spectacular union. It really
Stacy: Yeah.
John: is, it
Stacy: And that feels good. If you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. And please tell a friend. That all really helps us find our audience. Thank you. We appreciate you being here.
John: Thank you thank you everyone,
Stacy: Ciao!
Drew: See you guys.