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Stacy: So Craig, you're a musical guy. Do you want to, do you want to do the song with me?
Craig: what's the song?
Stacy: Your job would be on the third, in the third line or the third stanza, I guess you'd have to say, what's it called? And do you own a horse? I would point at you.
And if you wanted to, you could put it to a, uh, that you go, what's it called and do you own a horse?
Or you could just say, what's it called? And do you own a horse? Your choice.
John: And you have
Stacy: I'm giving you two choices.
John: You have the
Stacy: pizza or grilled cheese.
Drew: say no.
Craig: Bring it. Bring
Stacy: Okay, great. Okay.
John: to,
Stacy: Okay. I'll point, I'll point. It'll be the third thing. Oh my God. It's here at last. It's our pod. It's our podcast.
Craig: it. What you gonna? What's it? What is it again? What?
Stacy: it called? And do you own a horse?
Craig: What's it called? And do you own a horse? Okay,
Stacy: The show runner show. Okay. We're doing it from the beginning.
Craig: What? What's it? What's it called? Wait, hang on. Just make sure I don't mess it up. What's it called? And do you own a horse?
Stacy: Great,
Craig: to nail this for you.
Stacy: Okay, can we take it from the top?
Craig: Yes, from the top.
Stacy: Oh my god, it's here at last. It's our pod, it's our podcast.
Craig: What's it called? And do you own a horse?
Stacy: The showrunner show, and yes, of course.
Drew: Amazing.
Stacy: Yay!
Drew: Amazing.
John: the inherent lie, you know, you don't own a horse, you know, like, like,
it's
Craig: Um, it reminds me of my favorite theater story of, um, you know, if you're an actor in the theater, every once in a while you try to like, mess up an actor on stage with something kind of funny. And there's this moment in the play and when, uh, the play, when an inspector calls where literally one of the, one of the characters like lifts up this letter and goes, of course, Of course, it's that and he moves on with the line and on the last show, someone had absconded with the letter and replaced it and just put very, very simply on the letter.
A horse is a horse. And and and and we just watched him from backstage as he kind of went. Of course. And, and, and, and as he said the first, of course, you could see it dawned on him the joke and he's smiling through the second part of his stanza with it.
Stacy: That's awesome.
John: so good.
Stacy: Of course,
John: I'm John Eric
Drew: Oh, well, I forgot the intro.
Well, welcome to the show runner show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of show running for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just wants to know how it's all made. I'm Drew
Doudle.
John: Dowdell.
Stacy: I'm Stacey Shabosky, and we are so delighted that you are here listening.
John: Uh, this week we're talking about the key relationship, uh, that happens between the showrunner and the director or the directing producer, uh, with Craig Brewer, who we spoke with last week also, and he is a superstar, superstar that we are so thrilled to have on the show.
Drew: So
Craig: Wow.
Stacy: Very intimidating. It was, I,
I worked extra hard on the songs, honest to God. That's what you heard was the good version. That's
John: Yeah.
She's
Craig: my heart was, my heart was pounding. I was like really trying to keep up with your beat and
John: Oh, Stacy, when Stacy came to me yesterday and she's like, You think because it's Craig we could do a hip hop like I was like, oh god, please. No, please do
not do that Do not do
that That will be bad for everybody
Craig: The Internet is forever. Stacy.
Drew: It is
Stacy: that's a really good point.
My name is Stacy
Craig: You'd feel good about it, you'd feel good about it today,
Stacy: maybe, probably not, probably not.
Drew: instant regret, yeah!
Stacy: I wanted to start this week by bringing something up that we were going to talk about last week. Anyway, between the break between the two shows, I said to John, I was like, you know, I still don't actually know. What a directing producer is, and I'm not even sure it sounds like your experience with Empire was so interesting and all engrossing and stuff, but I wasn't even clear whether you were the directing producer or whether Senna was, or whether you had to,
Craig: yeah, Senna was the directing producer, and then I was, uh, and just to be clear for everybody what that Uh, entails like Senna would really be the person who would find the directors and, and call and say like, Hey, you know, people that she knew people that she knew would be good with the dynamic of the show and, and of course like the studio and the network would have to have their approvals and everything, but you know, she would, she would be the one that would really sit down, uh, before every episode and say, Hey, This is what you need to worry about with this actor.
This is what you need to be thinking about with this actress. And then. R I would also say they're, they are really fundamental in the casting process, and there's a lot of casting that goes on with these shows that, um, yes, the director will go to, to casting, and I'm talking about on like, kind of like day player type of stuff, where people would come in and, and you know, they would have like, you know, the, the one lawyer that has a scene or something like that.
you would come up with about like three alts. And then, and then Senna would, and then you would have your, your top one and then Senna would be like, you know what, uh, I like all your, I like all your choices. I, I would like to maybe see if we have somebody else and, and she would push the various departments.
Like you, you haven't provided my director really with a lot of good choices on this one. So she, she really was kind of like the person that would, um. Uh, fight for the directors. Um, I remember even one time on empire and this is after I've been working there for a couple of years where I got an episode and I'm, I'm even like of the room and I was just like, you know, this episode, I don't, I, I, I feel that we haven't quite nailed it or, or, or that, that the room hasn't quite nailed it.
And I don't really know what to do. And she was like, Oh, you should bring it up. Because it's your episode, and if you have a good idea, uh, let's, let's get to it right now. So, that, that's, I, I know that's very basic, but, you know, she would, she, a very basic description of what she would do. But, uh, really kind of a marvel watching her work, because, uh, uh, costumes, um, meetings with, with, uh, the, you know, the, Production designer.
Um, and then these meetings where, and this is where she had a talent that I was not good at at all. Um, I had, I had talents in other areas. Uh, she could really look at a schedule and look, I've now been working in the business for, you know, uh, close to two decades now. I still, when I look at a schedule, I have to go like, okay, wait a minute.
The, the, the, the date line is actually at the bottom of this
Drew: I know,
me too. Me too.
Craig: just may, how many times do I
have to look at this thing and go like, am I going to learn this thing again? But she, she could really say like, you're not going to make this day. I mean, look, you've got this at three eighths of a page and you got this at two and a half pages.
Like she could really do the math in her head as to what it would take on a day to film an episode. And she, uh, that, that was the thing that, that I, I think that when you're a feature director, there's a part of you that just wants to almost ignore that you want to believe that it's well, if we don't make the day, then obviously we've got to figure out another way to make that day.
Whereas in television, those are your days and those are the times that you have. And, uh, she was a great. She was a marvel at that.
John: I would think a directing producer would be more about like corralling directors, making sure they get everything, but it's interesting. It sounds more like a support job, making sure the director has what they need to succeed as opposed to,
Craig: Oh, yeah. And, and, and looking, looking at edits and, uh, and making sure that what you delivered is the best it could be. And, uh, and, and, especially on empire, you know, there'd be so many things where, you know, certain things had to be redone or, or, uh, the, you know, the, the interesting thing about network that I learned is you're getting kind of real time, uh, Reactions because you're making so many episodes.
It's not like you're doing something for cable where you're only making like eight or 10 or 12 episodes. And then it's like this long movie that you're just going with. I mean, you really do find out like, Hey, that storyline that you were, thinking is, you know, where this one character that just came in, it's going to take off, isn't really taking off all that much, but this person's really popping.
And so you have to almost like, you of the of the narrative because you're reading Twitter, you know, as a, as a, as a writer's room and going, like, oh, that's not really popping. And so sometimes you have to kind of like course correct and the production.
Drew: That's, that's really,
John: Yeah.
We've only done the 10 episodes, you know,
that's, we haven't done the, you know, the 23 or whatever episodes.
Craig: well, what was great about is that, I mean, you really got the sense of like you wrote something and then you went and shot it and then it aired like while you were still working, you know what I
John: Wow.
Craig: And usually like on cable shows,
You you're maybe on the last couple of episodes. You know, the room starts getting a little depleted because maybe people are going off to shoot something.
But I mean, this it was just a, it was a train. It was a machine that was constantly moving and constantly evolving.
Stacy: That sounds like enormous pressure.
Drew: I was just
Stacy: very panic attack y to me.
Very like,
Drew: Well, talk about really needing to get your days. I mean, not only do you have not have days down the road to pick things up, but you actually are going to air. I
mean, that is really a lot of pressure.
Stacy: yeah.
Craig: yeah, yeah. And then and then reacting off of it. Uh, the writers actually had a twitter handle. And in, in Empire in particular, it was, I mean, this is where I learned about black Twitter, you know, black Twitter is a thing. obviously in a very diverse room and I'm learning about the dynamics of everything, but I mean, we would get on Twitter on the night of the episode airing and have like a dialogue with the viewers.
In real time as the episodes were, were airing and, and, sometimes even be in the writer's room watching the episode like in New York, you know, in the various time zones, to interact with, with the audience and, and you'd be surprised how much the next day be like, wow, they sure loved that line or they sure loved this element or, and, and it would, it would begin to, you know, You know, be incorporated into the conversation about the next day.
I'll never forget one contribution that I added to, um, empire. Uh, I'm so, and I, I wish that my grandmother Dixie was still around where she could take credit for it. But, um, you know, there was only so many times that like Taraji could say, bitch. Uh, and, and, and, and she did it so perfectly. Like Cookie is like, look, bitch, you know, and, and, and, and you'd think that it's funny because in movies you only have a certain amount of those B words, as my kids used to call it, that you would get on an episode.
But for whatever reason, Fox and with Cookie, it was every other
Stacy: Bottomless bitch.
Craig: Absolutely.
Stacy: It's a buffet of bottomless bitch.
Craig: Uh, and, and one episode I had her. Call somebody a heifer
and because that's what my grandmother Dixie would call people. She didn't like women. She didn't like, you know, it's like, get, you know, get that heifer out of my face.
And, and, and I had, I had cookie called somebody a heifer once man, Twitter lit up. And, and, and, and then. After that, that was, that was, that was Taraji's go to word because she laid into it. It's like I retired bitch and, and brought in the heifer.
John: That's amazing.
Drew: That's so cool. Just how much the audience can really affect a show in real
time. I mean, in a show like Empire where it really, like you're, you know, seeing what people like and it actually is affecting the writing and that's really, you know, such a phenomenon
of, you know, today's. Age, you
know,
that's
Craig: Also as a, as a writer, it was fun to see in a, in, and this was when Empire was coming out. It was, it was very much, that was meme territory. That's like when everybody, I mean, even the studio was generating from your episode. means to give to the writer's room and to put out there into the world. But then the audience would do, the viewer would do it as well.
So you may have written a line that's a killer line and then you're seeing it on Twitter as people are responding to each other with your dialogue, with something that you wrote, you'd be like, Oh my God, look, that, that, that kind of took off. You know, that thing that, you know, Lucius just said is now something that people, uh, send back and forth to each other talking about, like, you know, the line at Starbucks, you know, uh, you know,
Stacy: that sounds very positive. I'm surprised when you were saying Twitter, I was like, oh my God, just, I want to curl up in a ball and not even, you know,
Craig: Oh, and it could get that way, but it was, it was more fun. It was more, uh, the audience was having fun watching it.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: That's so cool. And yeah, I don't think we've ever had a writer's room still going
when photography has started much less when, you know, episodes
started coming out. Like that, that'd be really, I don't know, pretty amazing having that kind of real time interaction where,
Craig: So you've never been in that situation, so how does it work? So you guys, you, you would just lock all the episodes and then, and then you go, go shoot them.
John: Yeah, or, you know, it, it ends up like they, you know, the room kind of goes away. We've always had the room first and then shooting second. So the room typically goes away and then we, unwisely have just sort of picked up, you know, between, uh, the three of us plus, uh, uh, Nelson Greaves, uh, on season two of Pickett. but you know, we've just kind of done the cleanup work,
Stacy: Um, so like the room ends, but then there are a few writers kept on to finish the last couple of episodes
Drew: And we've done, you know, to, to your example, we've done where, you know, we can tell in block one, like, you know, this one actor is just way better than we realized. And, you know, the characters way more, you know, compelling than maybe we, we gave credit to in the room and we've kind of, you know, redirected some real estate to different parts and done like light rewrites in that regard.
But we've never had the benefit of like knowing what the world thinks of the show while still having an opportunity to change it. That seems really, um, I don't know.
So. Such a powerful tool.
John: Yeah.
Craig: we kind of got it down to this. Uh, we had a really great, uh, writer and, uh, EP, uh, Matt Pike. And, and he, he came up with this interesting way of like, I think we would have like, uh, Nine episodes, uh, so it was, it was, it was a 20 episode show and we would do 10 and then, and then take the, the, the break and then have another 10, right?
So there was like the first part of the season, the second part of the season, and we found that, um, a lot of the arcs that we would do, we would try to do in threes. So it'd be like episode one, two and three kind of had like a little bit of an arc. I mean, obviously we had like, you know, longer spanning narratives, but, uh, it was kind of a good way to think of it in these threes.
And then the finale would be your, your kind of like standalone that would kind of both conclude all of these and then, and then tee up the cliffhanger for, uh, after the break.
Stacy: Mm.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: for momentum. It'd be hard to sustain an actual like, what's going to happen? Like, I don't care anymore. You know,
Craig: And especially on Empire, which a lot of what Empire was, was that cliffhanger, uh, push in on the, you know, the face of the, of the character, like what's gonna happen, you know? And, uh, and, and then, you know, the network got really addicted to that. Like it was just something where they were just like, we need us.
We need something splashier. We need something more. We need that empire, you know? And, uh, so you sometimes would have moments in the room where you are really having to Pitch some crazy ideas. Uh, one idea that I'm I am really pleased about that I brought to Empire was from one of those sessions where Literally, there was a character, Trey, one of the brothers in Empire, his, his wife, uh, the, his white wife who was killed, uh, a few seasons ago.
Um, she's been dead for a few years and she always hated, um, uh, Interesting enough. Um, uh, Trey Buyers, uh, wife, um, uh, played a character that we needed to kill off. And I was like, wouldn't it be great if somehow the ghost of this woman could kill her?
Stacy: Yes.
Craig: they were just like, Craig, we're not, you know, I will never forget when I was younger.
I, uh, my, all my, my mom and dad, they watched, uh, or my mom and my aunt Laurie would watch days of our lives and I fell in love as a young kid with this one character named Marlena. And then I hadn't watched the show in forever. And then one day I was home from high school, sick, really sick. And I was flipping channels and Marlena was on there.
I was like, Oh, Marlena's there. And she turned away and then she turned back and she had red eyes and a demon voice. And, and it really scared me. I didn't know that you could just suddenly go into sci fi with, with narrative, but they were like, we're not going to do that. We're not going to do it in Marlena from days of our lives. But, but I was like, well, wait a minute, but, but maybe there's something we can do here. Like, what if like, we gave her like these kind of psychic, you know, psychedelic like drugs where she thinks she's seeing the ghost or, and, and, and ultimately we get that kind of like a payoff. And so Empire was constantly trying to push the boundaries of like, well, what is going to make people go, what, you know, and, uh, and, and especially over, you know, 20 episodes that got to be a little bit like, well, what can we do now?
You know, it's just, it's just, it was a, it was a hard thing to top.
Drew: Yeah,
absolutely.
Stacy: take it too far into crazy town, was that especially enjoyable? Or were there was like, I have a couple of regrets about taking it too far. Or it was like, yeah, the further the better.
Craig: Oh, there's, there's always regrets, but, uh, um, you know, not nothing. I, luckily we had Lee Daniels, uh, as kind of like our, our, you visual director and attitude director, uh, uh, for, for the show. And he embraces that audacity. Uh, it's what I really love about Lee's work is, uh, he's not afraid to push it.
Drew: Yeah.
John: that's good. And how involved was he, you know, throughout?
Craig: Pretty involved, especially with, uh, with with music with, uh, he had all the final, um, the sign off on all the tracks, um, any sort of costumes that were coming in, obviously the scripts. Um, and, uh, and and he would sometimes bag those big stars, you know, if, like, we had an episode where. Mariah Carey would come in.
That was because Lee bumped into her and said, let's get you back in. And, you know, he was that kind of a personality, but, uh, you know, uh, also, uh, you know, we'd get them every once in a while, like at the top of a season and hear just some crazy ideas where we would just be like, there's just no way in hell that the studio is going to like approve that or the, much less the network.
But it pushed us into a, out of our comfort zone and into a certain mode of creativity, uh, that, uh, got us into his tone. He's really a fearless, uh, creator.
John: that's amazing.
Drew: amazing. You mentioned the network and I've always had a, you know, a fantasy that like, you know, someday we'll have a show that's so phenomenally successful that they'll just leave us alone and let us do our thing. And, um, on Empire on a show that is phenomenally successful. Like, was that your experience or is, is, is the opposite true where the more successful, the more,
you know, the more involved they want to be?
Um,
Craig: Yeah, I, you know, it's funny cause I have two very different, um, experiences with, with watching that kind of interaction. One was when I was in a room with Sean Ryan when he was working on the final, you know, episodes of, um, of the shield. And I remember him saying. I never want to be the show that the studio or the network worries about.
So he would take these notes. He would figure out a way to incorporate them. If, uh, if there was something that he disagreed with, he would let them know. It was very, very, very cool on, um, empire. Uh, you know, I, I, I don't think that the, I think that we had some pretty smart, uh, executives that knew the show cause it was their show that they were maintaining.
But, uh, You know, when Eileen Chaykin was was running that show, if she did not like an idea, she let them know. I mean, she, she, there was, um, there was a relationship there. Uh, you know, she was respectful, but she also really stood her ground. And, That was, uh, that was definitely a dynamic to watch because you've got to now go through two different houses, essentially, you go through the studio notes and then you go through the network notes and sometimes they contradict each other and how do you manage that?
And I really started to see like, ah, that's where real show running the rubber hits the road is, uh, managing what's, what's above you as well as what's happening in the room, not, not even to mention what's happening in production.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very true.
John: I mean, you've sort of seen this from every angle at this point. Like, what did you find,
Craig: in terms of, uh, like, like breaking or just the, the whole experience or specifically with like the network in the studio. So
John: Yeah, just managing all the voices. You know, there's voices from every direction. Like,
Craig: you know,
John: the most
Craig: at least for the experience that I had on empire, and I know that my, uh, experience was, was unique is, um, uh, and I've, I've heard this said from a few writers that the, the real stars of empire Um, in addition to obviously Terrence and Taraji, were those writers that worked on that show? You know, they were really, really good, um, and, uh, they, that's, when I'd sit in the writer's room, I was, I was just painfully aware that I, I was around people that knew and loved not only just television, but just so much about just the, the, the culture of, Uh, yes, African American culture, but more so like movie culture, uh, the, the, the, the, the music culture, uh, things that were in, uh, in the conversation at the time and, and being able to really incorporate that into what was being done in the episodes.
And so, uh, our blue sky times were, were really great and inspiring. Um, and then you just started like you, you got your, it was, it was kind of like the old days when like you'd audition for a. For a play in high school and you'd go over to the board and see like what role did I get and you would, you'd go over and go like, all right, I'm doing episode two and I'm paired up with this writer.
I'm doing this. And, and that's when you started to like, you know, really kind of get excited about your episode. But I, I will say that it, it really takes like, uh, having a few people in your room that can, uh, can really get the voice right. Um, that, to me, the, the danger I think that you have sometimes with, you know, A story, B story, C story, and sometimes D is you start seeing the mathematics of it all and you're, you're not necessarily realizing that sometimes it's those, um, It's just those great lines.
It's the, it's those great arguments. It's something that, that had nothing really to do with the plot maneuverings and had everything to do with characters, you know, talking to each other. It's funny. Last night I was at, uh, I was at the new Beverly watching Wall Street, uh, and, um, I'm, I'm sitting next to somebody who'd never seen Wall Street and it's amazing how, um, When Michael Douglas gets up there and said greed for lack of a better word is good greed And it's like this iconic moment in this movie, but here's somebody who doesn't know it's an iconic movie But a line for a movie, but he was like wow and it's like, you know, we got to remember Yeah, we got to remember that sometimes There's just those lines coming from characters that we go like, Oh, wow, that just hit right between the numbers, you know, and that sometimes has very little to do with the cards and the post its on the wall and has to do with, I love this character, I love this show and I want to see something like this come out of their mouth.
Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. That's so cool.
John: That's great.
Yeah.
Stacy: a bad habit of, you know, you'll be in the room and you know, you're going to have this scene and you know, it's going to be a fight, whatever. And you start collecting, Oh, that's a great line. It's a mic drop line. Oh, and that one too, you know, and you'll start collecting them. And then the scene's going a different direction.
So they don't really work anymore. I will cling to, I will build an entire scene on just being able to stuff in as many of those lines as possible. And this is going to shock you. Those scenes always get rewritten.
Craig: yeah,
Stacy: Turns out you cannot, you cannot manufacture a scene based on stuff again.
Drew: a mic drop.
Yeah,
Stacy: if it was one mic drop.
absolutely. For some reason, I'm always like, no, let's get them all in. Everyone, everyone has such lovely ideas. Let's stick them all in there. One after the other.
Craig: yeah. And you just never know when you'll get a heifer
Drew: Why do You
get a half earth?
Stacy: got to have her, right?
Craig: you
Drew: know.
what's gonna work, yeah.
What I have to know, what did the Empire, uh,
writers room think of
the SNL spoof? I always thought the Dem
Trumps
was
Craig: Oh, love,
love, loved it. You know, I
Drew: it.
Craig: the thing that you have to remember is that like I came in on the second season and nothing in television history had happened like empire and like a decade where suddenly a show skyrocketed like it did. And it was so, I mean, it was so much in the, in the conversation, it's so funny because I, I wasn't a part of this show at all, but everybody in Memphis, especially, I'll never forget this, especially in the TSA department.
So whenever I would fly anywhere, all the guys that were checking me, I'd be like, yo, Mr. Brewer, we watching your show, you know, and you know, that, and I was like, guys. I had nothing to do with the show. I know it's kind of hustle and flow adjacent in some ways, but I had nothing to do with it. And I resisted watching it for like about five episodes.
And finally I just dove in. I was like, Oh, I'm totally into this. And, um, but it became, I mean, it was, it was wild just how suddenly everybody was watching empire. And, uh, and, and to be coming in on the second season of something like that was particularly interesting now that I'm away from it because I've heard from other people that that second season after a hit is really interesting.
You get like, you get the, the actors are in a slightly more empowered position. The writers are obviously feeling really good and positive, but there's also a tremendous amount of pressure, you know, it's a, it's a unique situation that I came into.
Stacy: Mm.
John: did you experience that? Like when you came onto the show, like, did you see, was everyone feeling that, you know, feeling that microscope of the world watching them?
Craig: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And also another thing about like, you know, the kind of that Lee Daniels pushing the envelope type of, uh, thing. I mean, there was so many things in the first episode where people were like, What? Can you believe that? You know? Uh, and now he wanted to go even further with that. And, uh, at the same time, I mean, You have like these two characters that people love to see at each other's throats, but at the same time you knew that at some point you wanted to see these two get together.
So it was a little bit of this moonlighting thing where like, okay, well, how much are we going to have Cookie and Lucius love each other and how much are we going to have them at each other's throats? And, uh, And to just be a director on season two, coming in for a couple of episodes. I mean, I definitely, especially with the spectacle.
I mean, I'll never forget. So my first episode, we had like this whole number where it was like Hakeem Lyon and, and, and, um, you know, one other artist singing And Timberland had done the music for it and Timberland is there. He's, he's just, he happens to be on the set that day and not to name drop, but we both know Justin Timberlake.
And we started sitting there talking about, about like different things with Justin and everything like that. And I, I was like, Tim, man, you've lost so much weight. He's like, thanks man. I was like, no, I mean, like I've been, I've been having your albums forever and it's like, I don't know how you're doing it.
You look, you look fantastic. He's like, I know, man, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Uh, I've been working really hard and I was like, you're on the hook of this song. Why aren't you in this episode? He's like, I don't, I don't really do that. And I was like, come on, man, get in there. And so then like, I, I go out to the center.
I think we got him. I think we got him. He's good. And so I got him in there. So because the numbers just had to be bigger and bigger and bigger and, and, and, and, and to have that be my first episode where I had to like knock out two music numbers in one day, that's, that's where I got really carved at. Oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Yeah. It was wild. It was wild. And the heat and the air conditioning went out and it was like hundreds of extras and we're burning up and sweat and people are drying with hair dryers and everything. It was wonderful. Like looking back on it. It's just like the best baptism by fire I could ever had.
And I think we even had fire and pyrotechnics on that
Drew: That's
amazing.
John: That's amazing. It's so fun. I got to say, that's one of the things, you know, coming from features like you did, like in features you have your script and it's kind of locked and it is the script, you know what I mean? And you're shooting that as your plan where in TV, one of the things that's so fun is and harrowing sometimes too, is it's always in a state, it's almost like an improvisational cue.
You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like this. This thing, you're following it mostly, but then yeah, something like that happens. You can bring in somebody who wasn't, you know, you weren't planning to have in the scene and, um, you know,
somebody shows up, uh, drunk to work and you're like, Oh.
let's give their real estate to
that person. You know?
Craig: Yeah, I, I was surprised at how functional it was to me doing dolomite is my name because I remember the first shot that I did with Eddie. Um, I called action and he did this, this whole Rudy Ray Moore routine. I said, cut. All right, you good? And he was like, what? And I go, you good? No, we're gonna, let me, let me look at the monitor and see what it is.
And, and, and I go, sure, come on. And he looked at it and I had like two cameras on him and. He kinda shrugged and I was like, moving on. He's like, yeah. And so we moved on to the next one and, and I think it, it kind of rattled him that I was like, no, I'm, I just got off a TV and I think that if you get it, just get it and move on and, and let's keep this momentum going.
But the second thing that it really taught me, it was exactly what you're talking about, which is sometimes you show up to set and the actor doesn't want to do what's in the script. And, and yeah, they could've told you days ago, but they're, now it's real. You know, and now they're looking at it going like, I don't know, I don't know about this.
And, and so that's when you. Start incorporating some of those things you learned in the writer's room so many times where like they'd be waiting for me to come to set with me and Eddie. It's because me and Eddie are in his trailer and trying to make something a little better and incorporating some of his ideas into something.
And then we come out, we shoot it, you know, and, and you have to, you have to be able to like really roll with it. And that's what television taught me in a, in a real substantial way.
Drew: That's so
Stacy: you a naturally calm centered person that you're able to roll with all this and have fun with it? Or do you have a lot of practices to keep you chill?
Craig: Um, I learned a lot. I think growing up in theater was something that just, uh, being around the chaos was something that seemed healthy. Uh, and it didn't seem like it was necessarily out of the norm, dealing with various personalities. But I have to tell you, really what it is, is living in Memphis, Tennessee, I've gotten to know a lot of music producers and study them.
Uh, and I'm really, uh, like there's, there's one, you know, uh, producer, Sam Phillips, kind of a famous guy that discovered Elvis and B. B. King and, uh, Howlin Wolf and, and the way that he, uh, he believed is that like, you know, you, you get all these really great musicians in one room and, and they, they all have very different personalities.
Uh, one guy's probably needs to have like two beers before lunch and someone else is kind of irritable until you start playing. And, and, uh, and then you, but you get them all together and then you just need the drummer to kind of like click off four beats and, and then you just need to kind of capture that magic that's happening right there.
And I found that. That they, um, whereas like directors, I think when a lot of people think about directing, they think like, well, it's somebody that has to come in and have like all the answers and know everything when really they kind of need to be that guy in the room going like, Hey, can you, uh, maybe tone down that solo just a little bit.
It sounds good without you putting too much into it and, and, and having a little bit more of a calm demeanor. Uh, uh, and even if they're yelling and, and, and listening, uh, it's much more of what directing is. It's not, I mean, sure. There's. There's, there's directors that are famously, you know, shouting at people, but I've found like I'm, I'm finding that more and more I'm learning that, that there's a lot of calm directors that know that part of the job is to be, you know, Heck to death by hens, you know, and, and with all the questions and everything, and you got to just kind of like, keep it cool.
And, and also when things are going terrible, keep it really light and cool. I'll never forget on coming to America, uh, to They didn't want to go out to this location where they built this huge set piece that was like 10 feet high. It was like this, this huge like deck. And they said, well, we're going to just move it over to the location where we are right now.
And that'll save us a bunch of money. And I go, you're really going to move that whole set over there. And they're like, well, we're only going to do it like six feet. Hi, because you're gonna be shooting into the tree line, right? And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. I'm not gonna I can always do a low angle with like a prism if I need something like that.
And so I show up an hour before we start shooting just like I always do. And I noticed that they didn't bring the whole set. They just brought one wall of the set on this platform. And I had so much work to do. And me and the director of photography and the A. D. We realized that the whole day is shot, but we noticed that the sun was rising and the whole crew, like about 100 or 200 of them were rolling their carts to us.
And I remember just calmly just turning them around going like, let's just remember this moment. You know, this beautiful moment where the whole day is ruined, uh, hundreds of thousands of dollars is, is being wasted right now. But let's just take in this moment of just all of these people coming towards us going like, and, and us going like nothing.
Yeah.
John: That's so
Drew: I love that peck to death my hands. That's such a great phrase. Like I swear, there's so many mornings where like, Some mornings I'm just ready for it. And some mornings I sit in my car for that extra
minute. Just like, okay, here we go.
Hey boss. Hey boss. Hey boss. Hey boss.
Oh
my
Craig: always the prop guy that always gets
Drew: prop guy
is always first. Oh,
he
Craig: know, he's always the guy that's
Drew: out of your
car.
Craig: Do you want is it? This pen or this pen and you're just like, oh man, really like I don't know. I don't really know. I don't
Drew: right. You're so right. It's
always
Craig: was go
Drew: really is. I know.
Craig: you guys get the you guys get the It all rolls downhill to you guys.
So you have my full attention
Stacy: Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah.
Drew: so funny.
John: it's funny that like in TV, like there's those days where you show up in the days when you're like, you know, I, I keep saying like, I'd rather have to reshoot it than not shoot it, you know, I'd rather get a, like a fail than a didn't finish and,
Craig: Yeah, oh, yeah
John: and over and over we find like, well, I guess the scene has rain in it, you know, or whatever, like, like, I guess this half of the scene is going to have snow and this half of the scene is going to be like
Craig: Right, right. And and then what's even more disheartening is like, and did anybody notice?
Drew: And
John: Yeah, totally. Nobody even notices. I know.
Drew: doesn't matter. At some point, you know, I think last season, John, you had to like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter. It's like, I think coming from features, you're so trained to think that every detail is so important.
Um, that, you know, if it's not perfect, you're totally failing.
And then in TV, you're like, Oh my God, you can just really, it's much more jazz and you can really, so little of it really does matter at the end of the
day, which is really freeing.
John: yeah, our AD got really sick of me saying like, it's all jazz, man, it's all jazz. Just throw the thing in here, we'll shoot it here. There's no rules. There's no rules. We're not, we're not beholden to anything. I lost the thread a little bit on that one. um,
Drew: he used, it was like a foot of snow before lunch and no snow after lunch.
Just given the, you know, Canada of it all.
Craig: Yeah, I can imagine with
Canada the same, but like
Chicago, it's like when, you know, you're, you're, you're
shooting in winter, like in January and in Chicago. And it's like, okay, well, surely we see people's breaths, so we're not fooling anybody by just having everybody not wear coats in the
Stacy: Yeah.
Craig: that's, uh, you know, that's supposed to take place in Miami for this one shot or something like
Stacy: Oh,
Craig: Wow.
Stacy: You guys feeling that rapid fire?
Drew: yeah.
John: rapid fire
for
Stacy: What is the first television show you truly loved and why?
Craig: Uh, the first show that I truly loved was Miami Vice. Uh, Miami Vice was it came at that time in junior high where it's like I started thinking about clothes. I started thinking about music. You know, I wore out the soundtrack. If I'm if I'm real with you, it would I would probably guiltily say that the first show that I really loved was like Dukes of Hazard.
You know, when I was younger, just because I just love watching the cars like Fly off and, and, uh, it was ridiculous. But, but really Miami Vice was the first time that I was like, oh, I'm watching a show and it's written and there's, there's, there's intensity and there's, it had the style to it, and I just fell in love.
Drew: That's, we're the exact same age, I'm guessing.
It's exactly the same shows. But I
swear to god, every picture of John and I in like, you know, 6th and 4th grade, we're wearing like, white
sport coats and like, a pink button up shirt.
Like, full Sonny Crockett
Craig: in a, in a, minute, I'll
just walk back here and give you, show you a picture I have. It's like, it's framed where it's like, it's so embarrassing, but it's, it's totally my sunny Crockett.
John: That's so
Stacy: I hope you're smirking in it. The boys have a lot of like, we're on a ski mountain smirking
Drew: Yeah,
Stacy: that I just
John: Yeah.
Stacy: much.
Craig: No, mine's really
terrible. Should I grab it real quick?
John: Yeah, do it. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to see it.
Craig: I, I can't believe I'm showing this to
Drew: I love that you have it handy.
Craig: can't believe it. I mean,
you're gonna, you're gonna really love this.
Stacy: Yeah. All right.
Craig: With the scarf with the
John: you have
Craig: and remember, remember the, remember the Nagel, the, the Nagel, uh, photograph, uh, posters from back in the day with the girls like that are like, Oh my God. So I'm like, I'm, that is totally Miami Vice right now. I'm wearing a sports jacket and a pink shirt
John: that's amazing.
Stacy: of the Patrick Nagle. That's the, that's the touch right
John: That
Drew: swear that's,
like identical expression to the ones we have of us,
John. I'm just like, very serious
and
uh, you know,
John: like, pouty face, like, cool, serious,
you
Craig: telling you.
John: Yeah.
Craig: It's where you learn to like just have your mouth open just a little bit
Drew: Yeah,
yeah, man, that
shows
it was a true game changer for sure.
John: So, okay, number two, what is your favorite part of the job?
Craig: I Mean, I would love to say that it's that it's that hour before you start shooting where you I always try to get there an hour Beforehand and have breakfast with the teamsters to remind myself that like, you know, it's just life, you know I mean they're talking about what game was on last night and and there's just this relax moment before all the madness starts.
Um, that you just have a moment where you allow yourself to be anxious. But you also just allow yourself to have a breakfast burrito with a bunch of guys that this is their job and and it kind of settles you down a little bit.
I always I was love that moment. But really there's just there's just nothing better than that moment when you've , you've figured out how you're gonna shoot something and then you just, you, you, you suddenly have a plan and you, you sit down at the monitor and it's time to start watching this show.
And, uh, uh, I, I do love that, but it, it, it, it pales in comparisons to, to, to the, to the morning calm. Before the, before the storm,
John: I love
Drew: I love that too. I also love that hour and I know exactly what you mean with the, you know, Teamsters
like, Oh, they don't, they don't care if I make my day, they don't care, you know how this turns out. Like it, it means nothing to them.
And that's really refreshing and it's good perspective.
Yeah.
Craig: Whenever there's a new, whenever there's a new director, I always say, um, try to beat the 80 to set. And then the first thing you need to say to your ad is where are we on first team? And then you'll have some air of authority. You'll be, you know what I mean? Like, you'll be good after that, you know, and, uh, and
Drew: yeah.
John: I love that,
Drew: that's great.
All right. Question number three. Um, what is the part of the job that costs you
something?
Craig: Well, I mean, I might be unique on this, uh, because I think what it really does cost is the usual thing that everybody, uh, everybody talks about, which is, um, you know, I now have a, you know, I've got a, a son that's off at college right now. I've got a daughter that's 15 years old. I do not get to. Because of the choices that we, uh, that our family made to kind of keep everybody kind of centrally located in Memphis, Tennessee.
A lot of my job is not in Memphis, Tennessee. And, um, it only recently has like my daughter almost given me a little bit of a pass and said like, dad, We're good. You know, you've stressed about this too much. You know, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're all happy. Um, and I'm like, oh, well, no, this has nothing to do with, with really your feelings on it.
I, I really wish I could be around my family more. I wish I could be around my kids. But, um, but, but with that is, um, is also something that I think, Is, uh, is tricky because so much of what we bring to what we do is about life. And, um, and sometimes the job gets you sometimes so immersed in what the collective is now working on that you forget that you're creating something that somebody is going to be sitting in the dark or whether in a theater and their television viewing area.
And they're watching life. They're watching something that they need to connect to. And I think that sometimes the work robs you of the very life that inspires you to work. And, you need to be, really, really firm with demanding that you get to have that life and that it doesn't have life altering ram or career altering ramifications.
If you put the rules down and say, no, I'm gonna do this, and I'm not actually gonna worry about that, uh, while I'm, while I do this, because you gotta fill the well,
Stacy: hehehe
John: I love that.
Drew: I love that too. That's
Okay. Who's asking the fourth?
John: If you had a time machine, what one piece of advice would you give yourself when you started your television journey or your film slash television journey?
Craig: Um, to, uh, embrace letting go, uh, a little bit more, I think that, uh, so much of what people think directing is, is having all the answers. And I think that some of the best moments that I've had on set has been me walking up to an actor and going like, I have no idea. What do you think?
John: Yeah.
Craig: And, and, and to see that look on their face and, and then have a conversation where you start to figure something out or, um, uh, obviously like every other director, you know, you, you, you study Spielberg and Wells and all these different, you know, titans of, of cinema.
But I've and.
Doesn't know what he's going to do and, and figures it out right then and there. And, and I've more and more realized that, uh, that, that it's not so much directing as it is just kind of wrangling this energy. And I think that if I could go back in time, I'd be like,
uh, you don't have to always throw out your opinions all the time.
You know, you don't always have to like justify that. You know what you're doing all the time. You know, you could, um, You could be vulnerable and actually that could equal power. Um, and, and television, I think definitely taught me that because as much as you got to make your day and, and, and get through it, uh, you're, you're a fool if you think that it's going to be exactly the way it was going to be in your head.
And, uh, and you need to, you need to just, uh, let it go a little bit more. Do
Drew: That is exceptional advice. I think that, yeah, the power of vulnerability, I think, is really underrated. And that's something that I think took, I can say
personally, took me quite a while to realize. I
think
that's
Craig: you remember when you started to like, really realize that that actually was effective as opposed to like a negative?
Drew: Absolutely. And I think it's exactly your point with an actor. I feel like, you know, I'm kind of newer to directing, you know, when we were in features, I always produced and john directed. And so I didn't actually start directing until we were in TV. And, uh, and I just remember, you know, with Michael Shannon in particular, having that moment of like, I'm not sure how to do this.
I'm not sure what to do. And he immediately was like, let's think about it. And like, it became part of the solution. And like, Yeah. Yeah. He was someone on season one, just because of his talent and just his, you know, presence is, you know, a little bit intimidating and, and to just kind of just lay it out there, like, I really don't have any idea how to accomplish this thing right now, and, uh, everybody's waiting on me, and what do you think, and, uh, and being part of that, I think he, he just became the warmest, like, collaborator in that moment, and I think, uh, I realized that that's not a, that's not, not a
terrible decision to do that more often.
Stacy: hm hehehe
Craig: this because we just, you know, I love the guy. Uh, he was being, uh, he, he did not like something that we were about to do. And, um, I went into his tray and everybody was kind of freaking out. Like, is he gonna, you know, what are we going to make our day and everything?
It's like, guys, we're going to make it. Don't worry about it. And I go into Terrence's trailer. And he's just sitting at his makeup station, like doing some sort of project. And I just laid down on the couch behind him didn't say anything. And then finally he kind of turned around to me. He's like, what?
And I go,
Drew: Ha
Stacy: heh
Craig: going to get through this and we're going to do it. I just kind of wanted a moment. I just want to like, I just wanted to kind of hide in here with you or something like that. I go, I'm going to go out there and tell him that you yelled at me. And then can we just, can you just come out and then we'll figure out what we're going to do in a minute.
He's like, yeah, man. I was like, can you just give me like like five more minutes? I'm just going to lay here. And, and, and, and I think, I think it really softened him to me that day because he turned around and he's like, you okay? And I go, Oh, it's fine. And I go, it's not you, by the way, it was totally him, right?
I go, it's not you.
John: Eh Ha
Craig: I mean, it wasn't just him. I mean, it was a conflict of things that were happening, but, uh, you know, um, Yeah, yeah, that, uh, sometimes the vulnerability is, it's kind of like when you watch your dad cry or something like that. You're like, oh my god, my world's coming to an end. What's happening?
You know what I mean? Dad, why are you crying? What's going on? Sometimes they need to be like, you alright? He's like, yeah, I, I, I'm fine.
John: I gotta say, this is a dumb anecdote, but once I was, uh, in the car, I was driving my son somewhere and there was stuff going on, like, you know, like family stuff going on and, um. And I got a little weepy and, and, and he's like, are you crying? I was like, yeah, a little bit. Does that unnerve you? Is it, you know, scary to see your dad cry?
And he's like, I'm scared that you're driving the car.
Drew: What
Craig: I'm scared too!
John: that.
Drew: was
that
note,
Stacy: This
John: that note, Well, Well, Craig, thank you so much for jumping in with us.
Craig: This
John: just such a pleasure meeting you and talking with you and we've, you know, I've learned a lot, you know, hearing, uh, you know, your journey through all this.
Drew: And just super entertaining
too. Thank you so much,
Greg.
Craig: And I got to
Stacy: wanna come back and Yeah, I was gonna say, if you ever wanna come back, you know, just for the first five minutes for the song, open
Drew: write some lines for you.
Craig: What's it called? And do you.
have a horse? That's the name of the episode.
John: Well, thank you so much. Just
such a pleasure meeting you.
Stacy: Everybody, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and to rate us wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend you can do that little up arrow thing that sends it to them. That would be delightful via text. Uh, that all really helps us find our audience and, uh, Thank you so much.
Drew: Thank you.
so
much.
John: Thank you.