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Stacy: Ken, get ready to lower your standards for this theme song. Uh, Nick, I picture this one
with production that's kind of like Doot doot dit do doot doot dit do doot doot doot doot doot doot
Like, um, like, um, uh, Land Down Under, like, Men at Work, you know. So, you gotta elevate
when I'm doing it. One, two, three, four Show oh oh oh oh oh oh It's the showrunner show Show
oh oh oh oh oh oh It's the showrunner show The showrunner show

John: Not bad, not bad.
Ken: I love that.
Stacy: real distracted lately. I have other things on my mind, so it's, there won't be lyrics
John: Yeah,
Ken: Yeah.
John: writer's break is over, so, you
Ken: yeah, it's like, that was, my
Stacy: songs are going to get real basic.
John: Yeah.
Ken: was, do you do the music too?
Stacy: No, Nick does, the producer.
Ken: my
gosh. Oh, I love that.
Stacy: Yeah.
Ken: Well, well done. Great combo.
Stacy: I thought like when he, and he didn't even, I think, ask or anything. He just started
Ken: He just dropped it in.
Stacy: he just dropped it in. It was like, what magic is this? Genius.
John: Yeah.
And I just love the little, uh, like sizzle and spin he gives to all the songs
is just so great.
Ken: Yeah. Well, it's like, feels like, you know, professional level. I'm like, every time I'm like, I. I
love seeing which one's gonna come out, like, how's it gonna be, so.

Wait, do we get two? Actually, I'm gonna ask, do we get two because
John: Yep.
Ken: the two episodes?
Stacy: get a
Ken: Amazing.
John: each.
Ken: Alright, new one.
John: Yep.
Stacy: Oh, I guess we should do the intro, but then I
John: Well,
Stacy: question for you, Ken.
Ken: Yeah.

John: Well, welcome to the show runner show where every week we demystify some aspect of
the job of show running for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just wants to
know how it's all made I'm John Eric Dowdle.
Stacy: Stacy Shabosky, and we're so psyched you're here.
John: this week, we're discussing the ins and outs of the studio relationship. And we have Ken
Segna, um, who is most recently the head of, TV development at MRC, you know,
Ken: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
John: and American gods. he and his brother and wife are kind of the mirror image of.
Drew me and Stacy to
his brother is also senior vice resident at, uh, development at legendary formerly at
Ken: hmm.
John: And his wife is an exec at Netflix.
Ken: Mm, yeah.
John: know what, what, uh, like role she has there, but,
Ken: Yeah, we're all, like, we, we, all met, um, well, Brian I met quite a while ago, but,
uh, I met, I met LD, Laura, at, uh, CAA when we were both assistants, and yeah, she was at,
you know, so I went over to Starz for a while, and then

she jumped over to Fox 21 for a spell, and then after that jumped over to Netflix, um, and Brian
has been, yeah, he actually had a very interesting ride.
He went FX, CAA to FX, and then he went to business school.
Then came back to our crazy industry and, uh, has been kind of on the studio side at various
places like UCP and now Legendary, um, you know, for a while. So, yeah.
All, all, a family, also all in this, in this wild business of ours.
John: That's cool. Yeah,
Stacy: That's so Drew.
John: Drew
Ken: Oh yeah.
John: too.
Ken: I didn't know that. Oh, that's so funny.
John: Drew, uh,
Stacy: banker
John: yeah,
Ken: Oh my gosh.
John: before I, like,
Ken: That's wild.
John: stable
Ken: Yeah, yeah.
John: and, like, got him to make
Ken: Like, come on back.
John: Yeah,
Stacy: He could have been an uber fit, thrice divorced man in a 20, 000 suit in Manhattan if
John: yeah,
Stacy: hadn't
Ken: life.
John: yeah, another life, another life, you know.
Stacy: So Ken, I have an important question

John: Uh, Uh
Stacy: more exciting time to be named Ken. How are you feeling? How are you feeling in 2023?
Having
Ken: my gosh.
Stacy: normal name until very recently.
Ken: Well, it's funny because like, literally
growing up when I was little, I would always get the A Weird Barbie, you know, from
like kids at school and things like that. And then it died out for quite a
while. I forgot about it. And then this year, all of a sudden... In Starbucks or whatever, I'll get the
like, oh, where's Barbie?
And I will say it is truly the weirdest movie going experience that I've ever had.
just hearing your own name like a million times in 90 minutes is so bizarre. I was like, this is take
I like have to go see the movie again because I really liked it, but I was like... Kept getting pulled
out. I gotta like, settle into the, yeah,
the Kennergy, I guess as it is.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Stacy: lot of
John: uh, Uh, yeah.
Ken: was like debating being Alan because I was like, I cannot go as Ken. And then, and then
uh, and then my daughter took over and, you know,
like, yeah, asserted dominance in the, uh, Halloween costume zone, so we were all, like, Frozen
themed, it was like
Stacy: Oh,
Ken: Anna, you know, luckily it was Kristoff and not Sven, for those of you who are, know, uh, all
the characters, and our, he's
Stacy: the
Ken: the guy, not the reindeer, yeah,
yeah,
John: Nice. Nice.
Ken: have to be the reindeer. Yeah, yeah, and then, uh, and then our, our four month old son
was Olaf,
which, like, blew her mind. So,

Stacy: So,
Ken: of Kens out there. I had a lot of people, like, a lot of friends, a few friends that were, like,
dressed up as Ken, which I
thought was very funny. So, yeah.
John: amazing.
Stacy: Well, I'm, I'm
Ken: Weird year for It
Stacy: had to
Ken: Yes. had
to be said, had to be discussed.
John: if you wouldn't mind, like talk us through your studio journey, like your
Ken: Yeah.
John: to where you are now.
Ken: Um, gosh, we can bring it way back, um, to me and Brian growing up in a suburb of
Sacramento. If you, uh, saw Lady Bird, that was like one town over from
ours. Um, Granite Bay gets a nice little shout out, uh, in there for a second. Um, and, Yeah.
our dad, he's retired now, but he was a veterinarian. He was like the town veterinarian.
My mom, um, like accounting and bookkeeping. So, like, no ties to the industry at all. Um... We,
I think they were a little confused how we both ended up in there, but I, I sort of think it's their
fault because there was a rule in the house we didn't have cable,
and we only got an hour of TV a week that we got to choose, and so, of course we both became
TV execs, um,
like, it was destined, but, um, yeah, it took like, we both kind of took different routes, I like, uh,
did undergrad more of a computer science focus, like, uh, it was called Symbolic Systems,
Symbolic Systems.
And then, um, but I always loved, you know, photography, like, watched movies constantly. And
so I applied to USC, I got in there to the, the grad program. Um, and then while I was there, I
started doing, you know, like, more producing than anything was the thing that I gravitated
toward. Um,
Stacy: your, uh, master's in? Is it just like master's in
Ken: MFA.
Stacy: do you, do you
Ken: Yeah, I'm like, I don't remember what...

Stacy: writer?
Ken: Basically, like, so I did the film production track. So there's Stark, there's writing, and
there's film production, which
is kind of the general catch all of that. That was the one that I did, and so you kind of do a little
bit of everything on everyone's projects. But the thing that I really kind of ended up doing mostly
toward the end was, like, the producing side.
And, um, And, then coming out of it, we, you know, I had a friend, um, Mary Pisacco, who, you
know, I know there's
a, yeah, yeah, yeah. exactly.
Stacy: Okay, cool.
Ken: so, right there, that, we, we did that together, coming out of, uh, film school. Uh, yeah, did
some
music videos for Leave on Helm.
Stacy: cause
Ken: Oh, yeah.
Stacy: Is
Ken: Yeah, exactly, that's the Leave on Helm doc.
Stacy: my health?
Ken: Yeah, and, uh, so we ended up doing that, you know, that was a really cool, but very, um,
long experience, cause we just kind of dove in, and we're like, we're gonna film a bunch of stuff,
and then we're gonna figure out how to edit it, and, you know, during the process, I got
interested in TV. But I didn't really know anything about it other than, you know, I was watching
the DVDs of like Six Feet Under and The Wire and Sopranos while I was at film school and just
being like, man, why is no one talking about this stuff?
This is incredible. And, um, so I got really interested. Brian had gone to UCLA, undergrad, came
out and went directly to CAA and the feature department as an
assistant. So he was like, well, if you want to learn that, like, come work for a TV agent. So, I
went over there, I worked for Kevin Cooper in TV packaging, uh, for a year, and, uh, then, yeah,
heard about a desk opening up with Karmie Zlotnick, um, who's going over to Starz, and
actually, you know, Chris Albrecht, Karmie Zlotnick, those were two of the, you know, kind of key
people at HBO with all of the stuff that I had been watching and was like,
enamored of, and so it was really neat to kind of, You know, learn from them and be, you know,
a part of the process of helping build out a network at S.
T. A. R. S.
Um, in a very different way than HBO. Um, and so, yeah. Initially, I kind of actually looked at that
as the stepping stone to how can I produce. Um, because that's what I was interested in. And,
you know, people like Carl Beverly, Sarah Timberman, like that, you know, a lot of people had
kind of a background that felt like, Oh, go to a network or a studio and then you can, you know,

eventually jump out.
And so I kind of was initially thinking of it as a stepping stone, and then I got over there, and I
was like, Oh, this is incredible. Um, you know, I really liked that side, and we were very hands
on, um, in a fun way with production and development. Um, and so I was there for, like, over
nine years. Like, yeah, almost a
decade.
Um, which is a fun, fun ride. Um, you know, because it was kind of Wild West, and we're trying a
bunch of stuff out, and then, you know, Power was, like, I think the first thing that I covered. Um,
you know, a point as, uh, an exec,
and, you
know,
and it was like Courtney Kemp, like, I mean, she, I mean, out, you know, obviously she had a
long track record in TV and experience up to that point, but I think it was the first thing that she
ever actually came out pitching, and just, like, sold it, got it greenlit, you know, the whole thing, it
was a
really fun ride. Um, and then that and Outlander kind of became, you know, kind of the two. Two,
two of the big tent poles over there.
Um, yeah, I was over there for, like I said, almost a decade. And then, uh, yeah, loved everyone,
but it was like time for a new challenge and went to MRC. And, uh, yes, we worked with them a
lot, um, on shows.
And so, did the studio side. Um, and actually, Girlfriend Experience and American Gods, those
were two also at Starz. Um, and then, uh, yeah, MRC, we jumped out, I jumped out, and, uh,
yeah, we did, you know, kind of, like, Terminalist, um, you know, uh, Shrink Next Door, Shining
Girls, like a whole run of stuff, we had a lot that, um, was up and running, you know, The Great,
obviously.
Um, and Poker Face with, uh, Ryan Johnson and Tasha Leone. So, it was like a really, really fun
run. Happened to be in the middle of a pandemic, which was, you know, I know for everyone a
super fun time. Um,
but,
yeah, that was, uh, yeah, exactly. Um, I mean, it was, I will say, I don't know how you all
experienced it, but I will say as tough as it was, as crazy as it was, the, one of the things I took
away from it was, it was so incredible to see.
Frankly, our entire industry just pivot and figure out how do we do things very differently and
very quickly get things up and running and like set a system and just like keep going. You
know, I thought it was a pretty inspiring and incredible thing. So um, yeah, and then was there
for a little over three years and then, yeah, jumped out and now kind of working on, you know,
my own stuff and, you know, getting things up and going and it's been a good ride.

John: sounds like you've worked on the network side, you've worked with producers, you've
worked on the agency side, you've worked, uh, in the studio side, like,

Ken: hmm.
John: like what would you describe, like how different are those jobs like, and, and, you know,
for, for somebody who's, you know, getting into TV and it was like, Oh, you know, this is a, a nice
chance to hear like the differences of those jobs and, and
Ken: Yeah.
John: Cool.
Ken: there's some that I feel like is, there's the overlapping skill sets in terms of, like, everything
in my mind is always, you know, about how do you find people that have a vision and a voice
and help champion that, you know, through the process. And it's just kind of like, Where are you
in the process, to a degree, I think, and
there's, you know, kind of the fun parts and the challenges of each of those positions, like, on
the network side, there's a lot that comes with that in terms of, there are always going to be
shows made, you are going to put something on the air, it's really more just kind of filtering,
alright, which ones are we going to back, what, you know, which ones are we doing when, um,
and shepherding that process, And frankly, each network I think is very different in the way that
they operate.
Some, like S. T. A. R. S., when I was there, like, we were very hands on and very involved. Um,
and then there are some that are really leaned back. Um, you know, and kind of very much, they
have a lot of volume, and kind of it's, it's really kind of up to the producers in the studio, um, to
manage the process.
Um, and so, depending on the style, You know, I think that's one thing.
If you are interested in the executive side, the network can be kind of the last decision point,
which there's the great thing about that. You know, if you're in the right place, you can walk
down the hall, talk to the right person, and have a conversation where you convince them, like,
let's go do this thing, you know.
And then, on the flip, You know, you are inherently a little further away from the actual
development of it. You know, you're not in those day to day conversations, or frankly, if you are, I
think something is probably going wrong.
Stacy: Mm.
Ken: you know, you kind of need to bet on the team and let them do their thing to a degree.
studio, obviously you're, you know, in a different vantage point, and I think like, it depends on
what type of studio. There's like the, You know, S. T. A. R. S. technically had a studio in the
sense that we wholly owned and produced some of our stuff. And, you know, so there was like
no daylight between the studio and the network in that case.
It was the same people all doing it, like, it was the
same executives.
Stacy: different teams.
Ken: No,

we like, so for instance, you know, we had our production team was the same production team
and, you know, like for instance, Power was ultimately a wholly owned show and so that was
one where we were just You know, we
hired everyone, did everything, you know, along with, um, the team.
And then there were ones like Outlander that were licensed from, in that case, Sony, outside
studios.
Um, so, but we, yeah, it was all the same team, it wasn't
separate. Um, yeah, it was fun. And then, um, and then there were like the more in house
studios like UCP and places like that, you know, 20th, where... They will sell to outside places,
but, you know, a lot of their business is directed at their, you know, kind of sister platforms, and,
you know, that is a different stance, I think, and a different dialogue between those companies,
and then there's places like MRC, which are totally independent, and, um, you know, that, I
think, is a different vantage point, and very much, you know, eat what you kill,
you know, where it's like, you know, that, and that is the other thing, where there's, I think the
difference between, like, the network side and the studio side in that sense, especially on the
independent side, is you have the flexibility to go everywhere, but the bar is higher to, like, clear
and actually get things sold.
And, yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, you very much, there is no guarantee that you're gonna
have shows. You have to go sell them. And, um, you know, so that I think is the other thing. It's,
uh, you can have years where... There's a lot going on in the years where there's less,
especially with like, you know, I think there will be less of this, but, you know, with the limiteds
being a big thing, you could have, you know, a year where you have a few of those, and then
next year they don't continue.
So, like, even if it was great and everyone loved it, you know, there's
not another one. Um, so, yeah. And, you know, obviously, the production side, depending on
what type of producer it is, You know, like, yeah, where you are in the system. Are you just there
to help sell it, package it, get it in the door? Kind of be involved in that part of the process, or are
you somebody who's actually on the ground?
It's a very different lifestyle than most of the time being in an office. So,
you know, all very different.
John: that's really cool. Like, would you, you know, just for people who, you know, are maybe
kind of new to this space, like describe like what the different functions of a studio versus a
network, like, or a producer, know, versus, you know, the taking the show on their side, like a
producer versus a studio versus a.
network and just the different roles they play. Yeah.
Ken: I think on the producer side, kind of, yeah, it's, there's, It's such a catch all term, you know,
where I've had people who are not, you know, friends who are not in the industry say like, Oh,
like, executive producer or producer, you know, what does that mean? And you try to describe, it
I mean, there are people who are writers or creators of the show and that's one type of
producer.
But in that same lineup you will have often either, you know, say a critical actor or director You
know, that's a creative part of the team. You'll have, you know, somebody who is much more
hands on on set and that is, you know, their role. You'll have the people that are Much more of

the types that they have a production company, they're helping assemble the package, give
notes, get the project ready to go take to a buyer, set it up, and then may or may not be
involved.
You know, they might visit set. I've also had shows where, you know, there was somebody who
was in the pitch, and then you like, you're like, oh wait, yeah, like, when you see the premiere,
you're like, oh yeah, they're on the show, I forgot about
that. Like,
Stacy: I
never saw them.
Ken: know, it's like, and it's everything in between, which is why I think it's like a very funny
catch all title, obviously.
Um, so... Within that, that feels like it's on a whole thing where you're like,
What role do you want? the studio and the network side can be similar in the sense of like,
again, you're all doing a similar thing, trying to help shepherd the notes and like feedback and
be that first audience and help, you know, I think in the best version, you're helping, how do you
make the best version of the show that you set out to make?
again, I think that depending on the relationship there, the studio is much more the, like, alright,
we are going to actually manage the process of making it, and help hire all those people, get
involved on that side, and manage the process there. And as a studio exec on the creative side,
I think, you know, then also being able to help.
Not just get the project ready, know where to go, and the people to reach out to, and help
facilitate the sale, the negotiation, and like really get that done in the best way possible so you
get the best resources for the show. Um, because I think the best, the best scenario is you've
gotten a way to get a few people interested, and then have the luxury of deciding like, all right,
we're getting the best money there, Felt like the people in the room over here were
asking the right questions and understood what the show is and like all on the table What's
gonna be the best home?
You know and like
oftentimes I think it's not the one with the biggest paycheck
because
Stacy: like, they're smart, but they're rich. Mm,
Ken: Right and and you gotta you gotta unfortunately, it's not always the same
so like you have to kind of decide and I I get it, in certain cases, there's a real draw to oh, there's
going to be more money and all of that, and everything that comes along with it. Personally, I
feel like, great, but if all that money is being spent in ways that are cutting against the show that
you want to make, fundamentally, like, there's not going to be a season two.
So,
you know, kind of, who cares? And so, like,

John: Hmm.
Ken: I would rather personally be in a situation where you're landing in a place That gets the
show, has enough resources that you can make it, and then build from there, you know, and
like, grow in success. So,
a lot of that.
Stacy: personalities. Like you probably have to spend a lot of years to get to know, cause God, I
just feel like the names at different companies change so much, you know?
Ken: Yeah,
Stacy: you can't just say like, Hey, how's the climate at that network? Like it might be completely
different, you know, but it would probably
Ken: totally.
Stacy: like, Oh, I worked with her there and I worked with him there and this is what
Ken: Yep.
Stacy: and
I
Ken: Oh, a hundred percent, and you kind of know...
Stacy: Like, how do you know?
Ken: I don't, I
mean, I think it's more like, I think about it like, you just, you run into, like, especially on the
buyer side, when I was on buyer, like, when I was at S. T. A. R. S., there were so many buyers
that I knew socially. knew their interests, knew what they were about, knew what they were
excited about.
You kind of get a sense of, you know, what each individual person really gets jazzed about. And

then there's their mandate at where they're at that
changes even at the same place, you
know, and so yeah, and so you're kind of always looking at like, alright, how can I come at
somebody, like, A, the right person, and then, you know, get them excited about the right thing,
knowing what they like, and knowing, like, what's gonna be their access point.
And, you know, kind of come in, like, tee it up in the right way so that they are kind of set up to
love it and,
um, and really give it a shot.
Stacy: phone call. So the selling doesn't begin when the team goes into the room and makes
the pitch. Like you

Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: that pitch unless some good salesmanship had already happened.
Ken: And I would say even before that, it's like having the conversation about, like, who are we
going to call? You know,
because, you know, again, they're, and every place operates differently. You know, some places
you send it in to someone and they'll kind of find the right person internally. And then they'll tell
you, here's who is going to be in the pitch.
If you, at other places, if you go into one person and it's just not for them, like, you're done.
And it doesn't matter that the other person would have liked it. Um,
you know, that, yeah, so you kind of have to know a little bit. And that I think is, that is one of the
functions of the studio side, is knowing a lot of that, helping to kind of prepare everyone for that,
navigate that, prepare the pitches in a way where, You kind of have a sense of what, you know,
what is the vibe of the room gonna be like, because again, some places are really warm,
and then they're not gonna buy it.
There are other places that it's like, man, do they hate us? Did we
do something to
them? And then...
Stacy: and compliments.
Ken: Yeah, exactly.
The, the currency everyone wants.
Stacy: there.
John: Yeah,
Ken: Exactly.
John: you cannot, like, I always feel like when, when a room is really effusive in a pitch and they
love it, it's like, Oh, they're not buying it. Like,
Stacy: Totally.
John: the people who are like, yeah, we'll get back to you. You are actually the
Ken: Totally.
John: in
there, you
Ken: Yeah.
John: not going to put their cards on the table and be like, we want this,

Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: actively in the room poke holes in it because they're kicking the tires and they're only
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: because they're thinking about buying it as opposed to somebody who's not going to buy
it and can just go, you are a delight.
Ken: Exactly.
Yeah. Love it. Love it.
Yeah.
Stacy: it.
Ken: And
John: it.
Love it. Yeah, No
Ken: yeah.
John: it. No
Ken: Yeah, .Yeah, those are the, you're like, anytime you
get no questions, you're like, oh, okay,
well
Stacy: No
John: Nah,
Ken: it's either gonna be really good or really bad. Um,
John: yeah.
Ken: yeah, so I think each, you know, helping and I think that is part of the, the job is 'cause,
you know, it's a, I always think it's kind of a bit of a funny thing to ask.
You know, writers to go in and perform in that way. Some people, it's very natural for them. And
then other people, they got into this to write, you know, it's not
John: Yeah.
Ken: a performance thing for them. And so helping especially those people to be as secure, as
comfortable, like set up for success as possible. I think that's a big job on the, on the studio side
and helping navigate all of that.
And then on the network side, I think it is, you know, A lot more about thinking about, yes, to the
degree that you're actually shepherding it and developing it internally, there's a lot of the same
stuff happening. And even the sales, kind of internal sales, that happen there. It's navigating it in

a much smaller way, um, but pushing things forward.
And then, you know, yeah,
you're also thinking about
Stacy: Moms. Like,
Ken: Dance Moms.
Stacy: going to get a solo, but there are ten dancers and only two of them are going to get a
solo, so there's going to be eight heartbreaks.
Ken: I have never seen Dance Moms, but that sounds like a
show that I would get into. Ha ha ha ha. Oh man. Terrifying.
John: my
Ken: Ha ha ha ha.
John: some of her like, you know, tween friends and it's just like the most toxic thing to hear in
the background. It's like, Oh my God, this is, it's
Ken: Like, no.
John: in that it's
least
Ken: Ha ha ha.
John: seconds long,
Ken: Right.
John: per, blip, but Oh my God, it's, it's
horrible.
Stacy: bitter middle aged woman, uh, berating 15 pound children for like,
Ken: Oh god. Ha ha ha ha.
John: horrible.
Ken: man. Wait, is it on? I'm assuming season 20, 21. What are
we on? It's like... Ha ha ha.
ha. Can't get enough. Let's keep going. Yeah. Ha
John: yeah.
Ken: ha ha ha.

John: and stuff too. It's like, you're right. Like Stacy, you know, loves, you know, came up as an
actor and is like, Oh, finally, everyone's looking at me. This is wonderful. Whereas
Ken: Hmm.
John: it was like, I, you know, I started going to therapy because it was so like, you know,
Ken: It's stressful.
John: it was so stressful and I'm not
Ken: Yeah.
John: A natural public speaker like it, you know,
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: work through some stuff and basically, you know, at the end of, uh, you know, a couple of
years of therapy, uh, she was like, just let drew do most of it. Cause he's good at it.
Ken: Ha ha ha ha ha.
John: totally.
Ken: Let's do it. ha.
ha ha.
John: I gotta
Ken: Weight off my shoulders. Ha ha
ha. Yeah.
Stacy: question for you.
Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: Do you think, Zoom pitches are going to keep going? Does it seem like they keep going?
Cause one thing I discovered, I've only done a couple of in room pitches
Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: your notes, but you're pretending not to, it's like at the Oscars, you're pretending not to
look at your notes, but you are, you know?
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: And then the great thing about the Zoom pitch was I could
Ken: Just boom.
Stacy: my
Ken: Oh, yeah.

Stacy: my camera way over there and then blow up my Word doc. So really all I was doing was
the same thing I used to do when I volunteered at my kid's library, which is like, I'm just
Ken: ha.
Stacy: I'm reading it out loud with inflection, you know, but
Ken: Yeah. Oh, 100%. I
mean, it was interesting seeing
Stacy: going or are they dead?
Ken: think, I mean, it's an interesting question because I do think there will be some, but I don't
know. There is something, having been on both sides of it, there is something certainly on the
buyer's side where it's like the intangibles of being in the room with people
and kind of understanding, you know, just, I don't know, that in person dynamic,
I think. Can be, you know, you can get people much more invested, I think. Um, but, you know,
also having been on the selling side where you go in and you're like, driving all over town,
parking, like, you know, waiting in the waiting room, everyone's late. It's just like, it's,
it's,
Stacy: always talks
Ken: Zoom,
Stacy: like you've done the pitch and now you're in the men's room together and you're like sort
of
Ken: yep,
Stacy: didn't just hang out for 45 minutes and
Ken: totally. Yeah,
it's it's like it's a little weird in that way. It's like weird and awkward in a different way But it's like
yeah, I think so the zoom part I mean man kind of incredible from the standpoint of like, you
know, just knock them out way faster So, I don't know there's part of
me that hopes it keeps going and then there's the part of me That's like I like seeing people and

being in the room with them.
It's like, you know a little bit easier to do it that way
So we will see
Stacy: Then we
Ken: Yeah,

yeah
John: with
Ken: Mm
John: Being in my, in my familiar space, like
Ken: hmm.
John: performing and being performative to be in a space that I feel really comfortable in, as
opposed
Ken: Totally.
John: like, now we're in a glass room, you know, with like, you know, assistants
walking by and just feeling like, Oh, now, now we're doing the thing.
Um,
Ken: Oh man, Glass Room is actually great to me. We were, at STARS, we had these two
conference rooms where I always felt terrible for people that were in those too, at the
old building,
because it was just like these windowless like rooms with just kind of like very dim light. It was
kind of very, one of them was very Dr.
Strangelove vibes too. Um, and so I was, I always was like This would be a weird, I see this
every day, this would be a weird room to just walk
into. So, yeah.
Comfortable space, I get that.
Yeah. Well,
Stacy: Oh, and along those lines, can you throw this into, does a showrunner need a producer?
Does, well, showrunner needs a network, right?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: Okay. But go ahead.
Ken: I guess, interestingly, I feel like, almost always, yeah, but then there was that, um, Gosh,
what was it? Horse and Pete. The uh, Louis C.
K. thing that he did. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. The rare instance in which a showrunner did not need a network. Just kind of put it
up for, uh, for purchase.
But I think that's a pretty uncommon direct to consumer kind

of thing. Um,
John: Yeah. Mm
Ken: yeah, definitely need a network. Um, I think like, it depends, you know? And it depends on
the project, which I know is... Like, a bit of a wishy washy answer, but I would always think about
it, you know, there are advantages going straight to a network. And there are
advantages,
Stacy: the studio, you mean?
Ken: yeah,
for certain projects and certain setups.
And then there are certain instances where it's like, I think, better to go to a studio. Um, you
know, A, there are benefits, like if it's the type of studio, you know, like MRC when I was there,
you know, we would pay writers to... Write a script, maybe even two in a Bible, and like have a
lot of material ready to go, then package it, kind of come in with a full, like, here's the whole
thing,
and it's ready to go,
and you know, hopefully that tees you up for a really big sale, like, you know, Terminalists,
Shining Girls, you know, Shrink Next Door, those were all done in that way.
Stacy: Hmm.
John: Wow.
Ken: on the studio side, the studio is not going to, especially if it's independent, is not going to
be looking at it through one network mandate lens. They're like, is this something, how do we
champion a vision that is the most what the person wants to do, but also kind of is gonna have a
great shot in the market?
And... On the network side, naturally, they're only thinking about it through what is the best
version of this show for us.
And, I think if you do it right, it's like, if it's aligned and you're in the right place, perfect. Like, you
want to be working with those people and, um, you want to, you know, be developing it in that
way.
So, again, I think it's like, it kind of depends if you're going straight to series, that's one thing. If
you're landing on a development slate there, you know, depending on the place. They can have
a huge development slate and only make a few things, um, or they could be, you know, kind of a
little bit smaller and push stuff forward.
You know, when I was at Starz, I think we, like, one in about nine things on the slate would
actually make it to the screen,
which is a pretty good, um, hit ratio, I'd say. Um, a lot of places were a lot lower than that. Um,
so that's kind of a little of the trade off, is like, you might, if you package it and go straight in, you
might be able to kind of...
Bypass that

stuff by getting the direct to series sale.
Um,
Stacy:
You think
Ken: but,
Stacy: the studio can improve those chances?
Ken: it can. I mean, it's not the only way to do it, certainly. Um, but, you know, that packaging
element, that's a lot of what studios, especially independent studios, you know, a lot of what they
do to make it as attractive as possible. Um, and kind of get that big sale.
It's possible to do it, you know, without the studio and go, like, But, you know, I'd say, Studios
tend to really make that a core of what they do.
Mm hmm.
John: and it's nice too, like a studio can really, you know, from a show running standpoint, like a
studio can really help you navigate. you know, if you're, you know, maybe a newer showrunner,
um, that can be really helpful to have a studio
to ask questions like, okay, how are we supposed to, how does this work?
How to, you know, it's somebody. Um, you can, you can ask the network to, um,
Ken: hmm.
John: that's, uh, depending on what the network has going on, like sometimes they can be a
little, uh, spread thin and,
Ken: Yeah.
John: and the studio is there to, you know, help you facilitate.
Ken: Totally.
And I think, you know, kind of navigate those waters a hundred percent. Um, I think there are a
lot of producers who do that in their own way, too. So, this is where I say, like, one of the things
that I love about what we do is there is no paint by numbers answer to anything. And so, you
know, you kind of have to figure out, all right, this is what this project, here's what's important
about it, here's what we need to protect, here's what we need to champion, and what is the best
route, who are the best partners, and that can look wildly different, you know?
Um, and you know, like, just for instance, since you mentioned Girlfriend Experience, the way
that show was made could not be further from the way that something like Terminalist was
made. You know, they're
like, the scope was wildly different, You know, the approach to production, the way the team was
assembled, all of it was so different, you know, and how it came together.
You know, studio partner, and like, effectively, you know, just like a team, a creative team, you
know, making it, um, and distributing it on Starz. Just really, really different, but it was exactly the
right process for both of those. You know, and so that's, I think, kind of the fun. Yeah, also just

finding those right partners, who are the people, especially on the writer's side, I would imagine.
It's the same thing, you know, amongst execs. You find the people who you know you kind of
have a similar vision or can speak a similar language
as far as like, creative approach and, you know, are they, do they really believe in what you are
wanting to make? Um, and I think that, you know, that ends up being the best version of it.
Usually you kind of like they're part of the team in an extended way. Um, and an important part
to get things actually made and championed and then marketed in the right way and like getting
the support behind it, that it needs to be really successful.
John: That's amazing. And, and, you know, to your point earlier too, like the, you know, it's the
Marsha McLuhan, uh, you know, the media is the message. Like. if you're doing, you know,
Game of Thrones, and, you know, CBS wants to buy it, like, that's gonna change. You know
what I mean? That's,
Ken: It's gonna look different.
Yeah.
John: different.
It's gonna feel
Ken: I'm really curious what the CBS version of Game of Thrones would look like. I actually
know that you said it.
John: Yeah, but
like, you know...
Stacy: cousins? Do they have to be brother and sister? Could they be
Ken: Second
cousins,
Stacy: cousins, College friends? They're
John: But, you know, like you may have an edgy show and be like,
Ken: Mhm.
John: to, you know, play, you know, everywhere in every household.
Um, and it's sometimes a studio can help you be like. Or just know the insides, like, oh, you
know what, that network is in disarray, like,
Stacy: right?
Ken: Yep.
John: there, there's, you know, word on the street is a bunch of, you know, people are going to
leave and any shows they've championed are going to die.

Like,
Ken: Mhm.
John: know, they can help improve your odds just by having,
Ken: A little of that. Yeah.
John: a little bit of that intelli, you know, that, that knowledge. all right. Well, every, uh, when we
have a guest on, we like to do what we call the rapid fire for, which is four questions. We ask
each guest,
Ken: Mhm.
John: first one is what is the first television show you truly loved and why?
Ken: I mean... Like I said, we, we, we got like an hour of TV and it usually ended up being either
animated X-Men when we were younger or uh, the X-Files, which
was that, that probably would be my one where it was like a little scary when I was younger in a
way that was really exciting and awesome. And, um, also just, I mean, I was obsessed with like
aliens and stuff back then.
I was like, oh, what is out there? And you know, just like, it was a very fun show. That also, for
me, was something where it was like, very exciting to see the really imaginative cases of the
week, but
then also, you know, loving the, what's the ongoing long, long arc, and like, frankly, I feel like
that is sort of where, I love features, but I feel like my brain, like, I enjoy the puzzle of TV, and,
um, like, that is kind of one of those things in terms of that long form storytelling.
Amid, you know, kind of the thing that's gonna be really awesome to tune into every week, um,
that was a big one, for sure.
Stacy: That is, I agree,
John: I love that.
Stacy: when something has a strong like procedural case of the week but it also has a
genuinely strong, not just like a slapped on in two sentences cause you gotta do something, but
a strong like serial element, I guess you'd call it. That is just so delicious.
Ken: the best. Yeah.
Stacy: the
John: Mm hmm. Mm
Stacy: Question two. What is your favorite part of the job?
Ken: I think I'll go back to, like, what I was saying about, like, the puzzle of putting it together
every time. Like, that part I find really fun, whether it's the... You know, the right, like, helping
with assembling the writer's room, and obviously that's like, ultimately the showrunner's
decision, but like, you know, figuring out and discussing with them, Alright, here's the different
voices and perspectives and, you know, skill sets, and like, also, how are people in the room,
you know, like, thinking about just not how are they on the page, but you're sitting with these
people all the time, you know, that, and like, frankly, assembling the team both there, And the

wider team for production, and again, you know, if it's from the studio side or the producer side,
figuring out how to navigate, you know, getting it teed up in the right way, bringing it to life, you
know, just, it's different every time, and that part is really, really fun to me, um, because it's like,
you have this vision that you're like, how do we make this real,
and You just kind of have to figure it out.
There's like the things that you learn over time that are best practices and then there's the stuff
that's just like this project is different because of X, you know, and we've got to come at it at a
different angle
and that part's pretty cool.
John: I love that. what is the part of the job that costs you something?
Ken: I think like the fun of this job, um, and a lot of why I love it is that it kind of permeates
everything. But I would say the cost of the job is also that it permeates everything in your life.
Um, you know, I have a group of friends from undergrad that we get together every year in a
different city called The Gathering.
And, you know, like, they all do wildly different things. I mean, like, I said, my computer, uh, my
undergrad degree was more computer science. So I have a lot of friends that, you know, have
worked in startups or... Palantir, you know, Amazon, like all of those kinds of places, and then
also done their own things, friends that work in kind of engineering, construction, friends in
medicine, like, you know, just people that do very, very different things, and frankly don't think
about what we do a lot, and, and, like, there is something fun about kind of just really, truly
tapping into totally different experiences, going and seeing, you know, kind of what they're up to,
um, and I know we do that, like, part of the fun of what we do is, Each show kind of is a window
into a world
and a point of view and a character, but it's like a different way of accessing it.
And you know, I think, you know, we're all, I don't know, for me, our social life and everything we
do, it's like full on, you know, about entertainment, and I think there are the great things about
that. Everyone that we know here, for the most part, has some access point to it, and like,
knows similar people and can talk about it and relate.
Um, and then there's also the times when you talk to somebody outside and you're like, Oh
wow, that's super exciting. Let's talk about that. Like,
I don't want to talk about TV shows right now. So, yeah.
Stacy: if you had a time machine, what one piece of advice would you give yourself when you
started your television journey?
Ken: So, this one I feel like is a bit of a cop out because it's like, I, I'm, I'm, I feel like I was given
this advice early on and I really took it to heart,
but I think it's like something just like, like constantly reminding myself. It's just like, Actually kind
of building off the last one it is like we're also in it and You know we have this community of
people and like it's all relationships, it's all you know kind of Frankly like building things not over
just like the short term, but really the long term and I remember Talking to people who were kind
of on the feature side of Agencies as assistants and they were like, oh man, so cutthroat.
It's like really, you know, like like it sounded very scary

And like going into TV. I was like, man, what am I walking into? I'm coming from like basically a
group of 30 filmmakers like that are all hanging out together all the time in film school to like
Like, what is going to happen here? And
then I met some of my best friends, and I met my wife, and I met, like, all these people, like, you
know, both assistants and agents, and everyone's kind of gone everywhere.
And the same thing with writers that I, and directors that I worked with early on, um, you know,
it's just like, yeah, like, cultivating and really finding within this, you know, crazy business, who
are the people that you really click with, you know, in
one way or another. And then just, yeah, continuing to find out how you can work with them, how
you can help each other, um,
because it's, you know, everyone's in a different spot, you know, and like you were saying,
people in executive positions, like, what One Network looks like today is not how it's gonna look
like in a year, you know, and, like, there's the, the maddening aspect of that, and then there's,
like, kind of the great part where You know, there's always gonna kind of, it's always reborn, um,

but the mainstay is, you know, you see the same people all the time and, and just really making
sure that you're like, yeah, I think cultivating and finding those groups that, you know, are
supportive and that you can support.
Stacy:
it sounds
John: Uh,
Stacy: your people.
John: yeah,
Ken: Yeah,
Stacy: and be good
Ken: find people.
Stacy: term relationship, not a short term relationship.
Ken: It's a long game. Yeah, especially TV. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.
John: term people. I love that. You know, I love that. Like just as an adage. And, and I think to
your point, Ken, like there's, there is, there are cutthroat people. And I feel like if you're, if you're
like, you know, coming into the business, like I will kill anyone to get what's mine.
Like if you come into the business like that, you're going to find those people. You're going to
work with those people.
And if you're like, I'm going to find my people here. I'm going to find the people who want to. I
don't know, use this as a, a way to talk about feelings and a way to talk about thing, you know,
experiences that mattered to me.

You're going to find those people and, and, uh, probably have a better time, probably have a
better time of it than, uh,
Ken: less stressful, yeah.
This, this industry is stressful enough that I'm like, Needless conflict? I don't know. I'm like,
they're the
things that you have to like, you know, Fight for and push for and like, um, Yeah, I think the more
that you can just, yeah, Work with people where it's like, we're all in this together.
That's, I feel like, the best version of it. And I
feel like it was interesting, I had, um, man, a long time ago, Read this book that was kind of
about, Closed and open games. And
the idea, basically, of like, structurally, what the incentives that if you're in a game that is just like,
discreetly, there's gonna be a winner and a loser here.
And there's gonna be a 1 and a 0, a W and an L. That creates a certain type of, you know, kind
of conflicted way of
playing. For games that are like, Intended, you know, that kind of repeat or have like real
longevity where it's like, you know, not only is there the game There's the metagame of like
we're all gonna play each other again
You know, I think the good news about that as kind of TV is like, you know Whatever's
happening today like there's tomorrow and you know You got to kind of like always be thinking
about like, all right This needs to be built to last in success and I think actually that kind of It's
nice.
It actually, I think, in the best version, incentivizes everyone to, like, play well together. Like,
let's find a way to make this work. Um, which I think is, it's always nice when that happens. Ha
ha ha. Ha ha
John: that.
Stacy: you like our show, would you please consider taking a minute to subscribe and to rate us
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find our audience. will be back next week with more Ken!
Ken: ha.
John: All right, thank you.