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[00:00:00] Sarah: Oh, I can't wait for the Stacy magic. I'm
[00:00:02] Stacy: Oh, great, great. Is it recording yet? I didn't see. Let's see. Oh, great. Okay.
This theme song, uh, this week's theme song has a lot of words. Okay. You cold open opened
my heart but your act out tore it apart.
[00:00:18] I think you've got what it takes to run your own show and make lots of dough. You'll
be a show runner so listen to the showrunner show. The pod that helps you get in the know. The
showrunner show. Oh, the showrunner show.
[00:00:39] Sarah: Bravo. that was,
[00:00:41] Drew: was your best one yet. That
[00:00:43] Stacy: Really? Okay. You know, the inspiration was, we just went, I just took the
whole family to see Les Miserables at the Pantages, the tour I was around, right? And I was like,
Oh my God, I loved Les Miserables so much when I was in middle school or high school or
whatever. My kids are 11 and 14. They are going to love it. They could not, they could not have
hated that show more if we had prodded them with red hot pokers. They were. They were
horrified. And John, John, not John, my son, but John, my husband, his review was, huh, a lot of
vibrato.
[00:01:18] John: I know, I'm like, this is the worst like, like kind of old person, you know, like
back home, like Minnesota mom, like reviews, like a lot of vibrato, like, she is just a girl. Like, it's
like not enough rhymes, all vibrato, like, just
[00:01:40] Stacy: That was the other one. Not enough rhymes. A lot of vibrato. Before we went
to see the show, John gave the kids a pep talk, especially John Henry, where he's like, look, for
some reason, this is really important to your mom. Just Just be a good sport. So in front of me,
John, John Henry, our son was being a really good sport.
[00:02:00] Like, do you, you know, mom, do you like it? I was like, Oh, I love it. Do you like it in
him? Like, um, no, but, but behind my, when I was in the women's room line, he could be fully,
uh, what did he say to you, John? He could be himself and give his honest 11.
[00:02:14] John: Oh yeah, about like 15 minutes into it or about an hour into it, he turned to me,
he's like, how long is this? What time is this going to go until? And I was like, I don't know,
buddy. I think like midnight. He was like, I was like, I'm just kidding. It's probably going to be like
three hours.
[00:02:31] Stacy: But you said, he said something where he was like, uh, I don't know who
anyone is. I can't hear anything they're saying. I can't hear a single word. I don't know what's
going on. And I don't know who anyone is.
[00:02:42] John: Totally. Yeah. It was tough. Um,
[00:02:49]
[00:02:53] John: welcome to the showrunner's show where every week we demystify some
aspect of the job of showrunning for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just
wants to know how it's all made.
[00:03:03] Drew: I'm Drew Dowdle

[00:03:04] John: I'm John Eric Dowdle.
[00:03:06] Stacy: And I'm Stacey Shabosky and we are so glad that you were here. And we are
so glad that Sarah Mason is here for another episode.
[00:03:13] Sarah: Yay.
[00:03:15] Stacy: Mason, Sarah Marie Mason, professionally, right?
[00:03:18] Sarah: Professionally. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:19] Stacy: Is there another Sarah Mason running around? That bitch.
[00:03:22] Sarah: No.
[00:03:24] John: This week, we're talking about onset, uh, supervising writers, which this is kind
of funny because both of you, uh, rose up the ranks from staff writing, you know, both Stacy and
Sarah in the last couple of years, you know, went from staff to onset supervising writing. And,
and that's, you know, I, I'm sure. we've learned more about what that job entails from the two of
you, you know what I mean?
[00:03:52] Than, like, than we had, you know, knew anything about. Like, you know, in our first
shows, like, we just babysat the directors every, you know, step of the way. And
[00:04:04] Stacy: sure they loved it.
[00:04:05] John: Yeah, nobody liked it. Nobody appreciated that. Like, and I can
[00:04:10] say. Like, you know, I directed a movie for M. Night Shyamalan as a producer and the
days he was on set were less pleasant for me than when he wasn't, you know, and then, yeah,
with Stacey, we had a director, who I just realized I was like two on top of him and it was making
him crazy and so we got, you know, Stacey moved into the onset supervising writer position
and,
[00:04:33] Stacy: actually his suggestion, right?
[00:04:35] John: Oh, it
[00:04:35] Stacy: I was sort of there anyway, just visiting. So basically our whole family of
four moved to Calgary. And then I started visiting set sometimes once the room for Waco
was done and I had free time to visit set, then I would sort of visit just to like, see what was
going on.
[00:04:51] And I think it was Everardo who actually like brought me in of like, well, what do you
think about that? Or what, you know, like sort of asked him like my opinion, which there's
nothing I love more than giving my opinion, you know? And then I think he might've actually
been the one who's like, Hey. How about she's the one who's on set instead of the showrunner?
[00:05:08] John: No, you're right. You're right. He said like definitively he was like, you should
insist on having an onset writer. Who can be there for you, you know, to work with the directors,
you know, so you don't have to, and it was a really good, you know, I think if you're, if you're
open to, you know, listening to other people's, uh, you know, like help on, you know, your
workflow, like that, that was really helpful and it was, you know, he'd come up to me sometimes
in the morning and be like, Hey, I want to change a line.
[00:05:41] Is Stacy here yet? And I think he. felt a lot more comfortable talking to a writer who's
not a, also a director, and you know what I mean? Like it just takes some of the, I don't know,

some of the dynamics out of
[00:05:56] Sarah: more clear too?
[00:05:57] John: It
[00:05:58] Drew: true. It's true.
[00:05:59] John: it does.
[00:06:00] as a show runner, like sometimes you're a little.
[00:06:02] You're, I'll speak for myself. Sometimes I'm a little too precious. I'm like, no, no, I
imagined it more like that not like this and it's really hard to let go of that in the moment and part
of the reason you want good directors on set is because they're gonna see things in fresh ways
that you wouldn't have necessarily thought to and sometimes just removing, That just because
it's different than what I imagined, it doesn't mean it's wrong.
[00:06:29] Sometimes it's just different. And sometimes it's hard for me to recognize that in the
moment. Whereas having a writer there who's like, if it's very different, if it, you know what I
mean, if it's like, suddenly it's a musical number, the writer's gonna be like, hey, hey, there's a
problem, you know. Um, whereas, uh, a different shot selection won't necessarily raise that flag.
[00:06:49] And that's, I think, helpful.
[00:06:51] Stacy: I was pleased that I just wanted to, that first one, I just sort of wanted to swing
by and like, see what was going on. And then when it was presented as an actual, like, you
know, that that's a job, there is a job, like the supervisor writer, you could do it and you could get
paid for it. I think I was actually like paid for it.
[00:07:05] I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure about, and then not to be tacky, but it ended up
being the best money I've ever made the best weekly money because it was just, I think it's like
in TV, the, the shorter. Run, the more you get paid. You know what I mean? So if you're on a
show that's gonna work for eight weeks, you're gonna get more each week than you would for a
show that's going for 26 weeks.
[00:07:27] So it was kind of like that. It's like, oh, you're the, you know, you're the covering writer,
the supervising writer, and you're, you know, we're only having you here for four weeks, or six
weeks, or eight weeks, whatever it was. It was like sweet money. It was great.
[00:07:40] Drew: And on that front, I would say like a showrunner is like our education has been,
you know, ongoing in terms of what makes sense for us. And I think when we did, you know, our
first television show was Waco. It was six episodes, you know, John, you were directing four of
them. And, you know, it was like the idea of an onset writing, you know, writer supervisor, just, it
didn't even compute for us because we were kind of movie guys and we're like, well, we're going
to be here every day.
[00:08:01] Of course we're going to be here. Uh, why would we need that? And then, uh, getting
to pick it, it became, you know, That idea of like, to your point Stacey, like, as a showrunner
you're not paid great, you know, every week if you're... Working only on that every week from
the beginning of the writer's room to the very end of post, you know, you have to find ways to
kind of leverage your time and not be there and find, you know, weeks of production where
you're not on set, where you're still responsible for set, but you're not physically there.
[00:08:30] And I think that's where, you know, we've realized we, we completely depend on, on
people like you two, like Sarah and Stacy to be there and. Do that job while we're doing
something else. And that, that has been a hard thing for, you know, for us to let go. Cause we're

such, you know, production people and we, you know, we are precious about our stuff, so it's
been hard, hard letting go, but that's why it's so important, I think, to find people like you, that we
creatively trust so much and that we'll know when to throw those flags and, um, and yeah, and
like what, you know, maybe for a question for both of you, um, Like what is a type was an
example of something that would, you know, cause you to pick up the phone and make a call?
[00:09:07] Like, I'm not so sure about this. And like, you know, you might want to weigh in on this
decision or something. This director is doing. Is there a specific example you can think of?
[00:09:15] Sarah: I can think of a few. I mean, one is let's say, you know, they're in one of the
episodes that I was there for there was like a pretty meaty big scene in one location and we did
a run through of it and you know, it felt like a lot in one location and it was like the director and
the actors were like, what if we do the first part of it outside and then move inside and it's like,
that's obviously something like talking, you know, you know, To the showrunners about of like, I
think, you know, like, I think like tight, like one word, one word change, like often isn't worth
bringing to their, you know, to the showrunners attention, but if it's like, Oh, I want to just cut this
speech.
[00:09:53] I mean, obviously like something, something big like that, anything really big, you're
there to flag, you know, for, for the showrunner.
[00:10:03] Stacy: I, I think, um, part of it, you have to, you have to use your, uh, your judgment
and develop your judgment, right? Over when you should call in the showrunner or not. I will
say, at least with you guys, I err on the side of calling you.
[00:10:17] I'd rather hear from you guys, like, enough, stop bugging me. I'd rather hear from that
than be like, um, somebody cut four lines from a speech and you didn't, you didn't feel like
giving us a holler? Like, you know, so I err on the side of over calling. I'm sure that, uh, varies for
every single show and probably every season of a show.
[00:10:35] Um, but I had to develop my own judgment. So for example, There was a scene
where, uh, Michael Dorman is speaking at a grave and he was so in the zone. The acting was
so good. And he felt compelled not to use the character's name of the person who was in the
grave. He just didn't want to say it.
[00:10:57] And I, using my judgment, went, I totally get that. The acting is beautiful. I'm just
worried that the audience, who isn't paying as much attention, kinda needs the hand holding. Of
hearing that name. So then I had to, um, I don't, I can't remember if I had a conversation with
him first and then reached out to you guys or reached out right away.
[00:11:16] I can't remember which happened, but it sort of became, he feels compelled not to
use the name. I feel for clarity's sake, it would be helpful. What would you like us to do?
[00:11:27] John: that's good. That's good. And often, you know, I would say the first line of
defense too. You can go to the script super, you know, the script supervisor whose job is to
make sure, you know, all the words of the script are, you know, delivered and say, Hey, you
know, I think we need that word. And often the script supervisor, there's no, like emotion tied to a
script supervisor saying like, Oh, we're missing this word.
[00:11:48] And I think we need it, you know, but then if the actor doesn't, Like that or doesn't
want to do that, um, then it maybe warrants a bigger conversation. And, and so often, like, did
you guys find going directly or having the script super, uh, go in was more helpful generally?
[00:12:05] Stacy: I liked
[00:12:06] Sarah: by case basis. I mean, I think I didn't mind going directly either, but sometimes
it would make sense depending on the actor, like, I don't know, whatever.

[00:12:13] Stacy: I think the truth is the days are very long. Um, that's one thing I really had to
build up my stamina. Like when I was first on set, Oh my God. It was so exhausted. You know, I
was like, I cannot believe I have to be here this long, just sitting on pins and needles going,
should I say something? Should I not say something?
[00:12:29] You know, and then, and then you build up that muscle pretty quickly. And, you know,
within a couple of weeks, it was more of feeling like, yeah, I know they don't need me anymore.
They've got all the setups for this final shot, but I kind of just want to see what they do with this
one. And I'd end up sticking around longer than I had to just be like, Oh, let's see how this thing
turns out as long as I'm here, you know?
[00:12:46] Showing up really late and not having dinner with the kids because I just want to see
how it goes. But, wait, there was a point to this. Oh! Anyway, the point is, the days are long. And
I think with, uh, Sandy, with the, the script supervisor who's so good at her job, she's really
brilliant. Claire's really brilliant too.
[00:13:03] we would sort of tag off a little bit just to keep... Do you know what I mean? It's a long
day. Sometimes you just want to get up there, get on your feet, go talk to the actor, tell them
something, move around a little bit. And sometimes you feel like not doing that. So that was part
of it was just, she and I had good communication.
[00:13:19] I think it's good for the, the supervising writer and the script supervisor to have good
communication. They can come to you first and be like, they're dropping that line. Is that
important to you? Or, you know, and then. Basically, like she would flag things a lot of like, Hey, I
noticed that. Is that, does that seem like a big deal to you?
[00:13:35] And, and then I got to go, Hmm, thanks for pointing that out. That is a big deal. I
better go call the boys or talk to the actor or the opposite of going, Hmm, you know, they're
dropping that line, but honestly, I like what they're doing. And it was kind of a redundant line
anyway, or there are substitutions better.
[00:13:51] Let's just let it, let it ride.
[00:13:52] Sarah: Should we like zoom out a little bit and kind of, you know, obviously some
people listening will know about what a supervising writer does, but just sort of walk people
through like, when do you get there? How long are you there? What's a day like? Who are you
working with like as a supervising writer? Who are you in communication with most of the time
[00:14:11] during
[00:14:11] Drew: Yeah, that's a
[00:14:12] Stacy: what meetings do you go to and how do you segue from pre production to
post production? I love all that you, you do that. I'll sit here. I'll meet you. My
[00:14:19] Sarah: Okay,
[00:14:19] Stacy: the microphone off.
[00:14:21] Sarah: Um, so you, you were often, so every show is a little bit different. Obviously, if
you're like in a writer's room in L. A., your experience is going to be pretty different. Like my
friends that have shows in L. A., um, they're going home every day. But if you, let's say in this
case for Stacey and I, we're going away from where we live.
[00:14:38] We're leaving Los Angeles. In our case, we're going to Canada for a month, two
months, three, however long we're there for. And you show up in pre production. So you're there

for. I think it depends on when you get there, but, you know, you're there for a lot of the
meetings, like, you're there for props, and you're, you go through scene by scene, and the props
people, this is, like, one of my favorite meetings, because I'm just, like, there's a warehouse, and
the, like, the, the things these prop people have, like, you're looking, like, there's just boxes
labeled, and there was one that was, like, I, I don't know, especially in our show, there's a lot of,
like, weird animal stuff, And there's like, I don't know, I wish I could remember if I, if I come up
with the example, but there, I was just like fascinated by all these like taxidermy animals and
whatever, but you know, you're, you're sitting in
[00:15:21] Stacy: Sarah's the vegans staring at all the like ostrich guts, emu feathers.
[00:15:27] Sarah: I'm so fascinated. It's great. Um, and the, the props people present, you know,
they're like, okay, in the scene, it called for a knife and they show you three knives and. Um, the
director's there, and, you know, you're working with the director, and sometimes you have a little
more say, sometimes the director has a little more say, kind of depends on, like, how relevant it
is to the story, versus, like, maybe what the director's in charge of, um, but you're working with
the whole team of figuring out, like, what you need in each scene, and, you know, you do, you
do that for cars, which, that, you know, picture cars, you go and, anytime you've listed a car in
the episode, they tell you, we have this car, we have that car, we have that car, it's so fun, it's
such a good way to, like, Meet each of the departments and get an understanding of what their
role is on the show and what their responsibility is.
[00:16:11] Um, and that's also your opportunity to meet the director, right? Because you're, as a
supervising writer, working pretty closely with the director. I, the directors that I work with were
very inclusive and really wanted me to be, work pretty closely with them and cared about my
opinion. And, you know, also I, a lot of this was very new to me.
[00:16:32] They were very kind and explaining things to me and walking me through things,
which is not always the case. I was very lucky with that.
[00:16:39] John: I feel like both of those directors, too, like really learned to Really came to rely
on your judgment as a second set of eyes and would say like, what do you think about this? Like
for all kinds of stuff, like, you know, I, I feel like that, that competence of just showing up and,
being enthusiastic, you know, like really being focused, like, I feel like both directors you were
working with really, uh, I don't know, came to lean on you in a, in a real way.
[00:17:06] Sarah: It was, again, it was so fun. It's like you find where you can stretch and your
responsibilities and not everybody likes more responsibility. I just happened to for some reason
love more responsibility. Um, but that was, that was the thing, like, I know, nerd alert for real.
Um, you know, learning who, who's responsible for what on set and who's in charge and, You
know, TV's such an interesting thing because it's like the showrunner's in charge, but
sometimes, often, the showrunner's not on set.
[00:17:32] And it's like the director and AD are in charge of set, but as the writer, you are in
charge of protecting the story. You know, you've been there since the beginning, you broke the
season, you know this show. Like, the directors that come in are wonderful, but this isn't their
show, it's not their baby.
[00:17:50] They're coming in for two episodes at the most, usually, and, They just don't know it
the way that you do. So, you know, it's your job to say, you know, the reason we picked this
location is because it actually, like in season one, they went there and it was a really meaningful
scene. And so we're revisiting it.
[00:18:07] It's not just a random location. And they may not know that, like it's your job. And it's
like figuring out a way to work with a director, like being really respectful of the fact that like
when they're there, it's their set, but. You know, me as the writer, I have to call John or Drew and

say, this is what happened.
[00:18:24] Like, it comes to me. Like, it feels like it's my responsibility to, to protect the story and
the show as the supervising writer.
[00:18:32] Stacy: I just want to jump in and say what you were saying about pre production.
That seems like such a good time to build that communication with the director, build that trust
with the director, by showing that you're enthusiastic and paying attention and helping, uh, with
story and all that for, for every, little moment, no matter how, you know, like small or whatever,
uh, because once it's production, basically just pre production is a lot more relaxed and a lot
less pressure.
[00:19:00] So you can build that relationship because then when production starts, the director
is under a tremendous amount of pressure. That's not the time to build a relationship from zero.
[00:19:10] Drew: Yeah.
[00:19:11] John: Yeah,
[00:19:12] Drew: Yeah, and as Sarah was saying too, like a director that comes on to do, you
know, episodes 7 and 8, let's say, and uh, you know, they've probably read I think they've only
done like episodes one through six once, you know, if that, you know, and so they may,
[00:19:24] John: On a good day,
[00:19:25] Drew: on a good day and a
[00:19:26] good
[00:19:26] John: Chad GPT
[00:19:27] summarize it for
[00:19:28] Drew: Someone someone uh gave the cliff notes version or something but They're
often just not going to, you know, have the, what even, even of that season that they're shooting
they won't know what leads up to it like the supervising writer that just makes the, you know, the
dependence, you know, I think that any kind of guest director is going to really Typically really
appreciates that supervising writer being there to make sure they don't, you know, step in it and
don't, uh, you know, make a mistake that because they just don't know the episodes leading up
to it.
[00:19:57] So it's really important for the show to have that kind of creative connectivity, but also
for the director themselves, you know, who are there to make sure that they have confidence in
what they're doing because someone there who knows the story better than they do is telling
them, yep, this is good.
[00:20:11] And, uh, uh, so, yeah, so, I mean, you guys are both, you know, like a steel trap of,
you know, knowledge about the show and know every detail and like I found even when I was
there, Sarah and you know, block five of Joe Pickett, I would come and you'd be there and I'd sit
there for 10 like, I am just totally unnecessary here.
[00:20:30] I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave. And it was great. I loved it. I'm
[00:20:35] Stacy: by Crafty.
[00:20:37] Drew: gonna craft it.

[00:20:39] John: When it's
[00:20:40] interesting that the director is almost like it's almost like a snapshot in time like they're
they're this present moment this episode or this, you know, two episode block, whatever it is like
But the director's kind of stuck in that, and that's all they've prepared, that's all they've thought
about.
[00:20:56] They don't care about, you know, usually, typically, about future episodes or previous
episodes. Like, they care about their one or two episodes. And, yeah, the on set supervising
writer. Has a sense of history and future in a way, like Sarah, you were saying, you know, with
being a writer's assistant, being kind of the external hard drive, you know, that's remembering
everything.
[00:21:20] And I think same is true in this, in this case, like, you know, the director might be like,
you know, it would be awesome. Like, I think he should shoot that person in the head right here.
And you're like, Oh no, no, he can't shoot him in the head. That person has to be able to speak
in two episodes, you know. you know, or whatever, like that's a terrible example, but, but,
[00:21:40] Stacy: That's a bold director. Hey, I got an idea. This is crazy. How about...
[00:21:45] Sarah: yeah. So yeah, so pre production is like getting the lay of the land as a writer,
making those relationships. You know, with the people you're going to be working with every day
and, um, you know, sometimes you'll get to location scout. I didn't do, I did a little bit, not much,
like that was because I was coming in like pretty late.
[00:22:02] Most locations were already secured, but I know early on, like Nelson was doing
location scouting and, um, and then once you actually like get into, you know, production and
you're, it's, you know, time to shoot. You're there. It's so, you know, I mean, Stacey's saying it's
long days and especially if you're a writer used to writer room hours.
[00:22:21] It's, uh, you know, no writer's room starting at 6 a. m. And often, you know, you're,
you're driving an hour away, so you're waking up 4. 30 or 5. And, um, I know for me, I would just,
you know, spring out of bed most mornings and be like, oh, I can't, I can't wait to get there. It
was, it was so fun. And we were on such beautiful locations too.
[00:22:40] We
[00:22:40] Stacy: So beautiful.
[00:22:41] Sarah: the middle of nowhere and you'd see the sunrise on your drive in and. That
really just like invigorated me and you know get there and um, but you
[00:22:49] Stacy: was late, like four out of every five times. So I'd be like, because g p s, it's so
in the middle of nowhere that you can't just put like, you know, Bob's burgers like you, well,
Bob's Burger, you know, you have to put in like G P s coordinates, which I did incorrectly a lot.
[00:23:03] Sarah: know actually Stacy that makes me feel so much better because one day my
My gps like they send out the night before You know, you're one of the ad sends out the call
sheet and it tells you the location and I always click on it I mean, that's all I did click on it. My
maps would come up. I'd follow it I'd get to set like I have terrible sense of direction.
[00:23:20] So I like very much rely on my On my maps, and one day, and this is like the, almost
the last week, so I've been driving to all these places. You'd think I would know where I'm going
after, I think this is like our 13th day on this location or something. But I'm just, I'm my, like, I, I
trust my GPS, like, I know I don't have a sense of direction.

[00:23:40] I'm just gonna follow what the GPS does. And I'm driving and like 45 minutes in I go,
this just feels weird, this just doesn't look like where I've been before. It just randomly brought
me an hour in the opposite direction of set.
[00:23:52] Stacy: no.
[00:23:53] John: Oh.
[00:23:54] Sarah: I had to call in and be like, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a little late.
[00:23:58] I'm heading in. And it took me a while to get my GPS story. It kept trying to send me
back to this random location and it never happened before. And of course they needed me that
morning too. Like some mornings they don't need you. Some mornings they're like, they just
start rolling. And so it was like very much noticed that I was an hour late.
[00:24:14] Stacy: Oh,
[00:24:14] that
[00:24:15] John: Oh. Ah. Ha
[00:24:16] Sarah: So I'm glad, I'm glad that it's not been other people.
[00:24:19] Drew: That happened to me once on Joe Pickett directing, actually. And I, you know,
had a driver every day. So just wouldn't, this would never happen. And then it was the Friday
right before we had a week hiatus. And I was going to go to Wyoming to visit family. And the set
was like an hour south of Calgary.
[00:24:34] So it was like, Oh, it's on the way to Wyoming. So I should just drive myself and just,
then I can just leave set and go straight to Wyoming. And, oh, it was a disaster. It was exact
same thing. I did the coordinates. It brought me to a very specific like country road and then
nobody out there. And I called the AD and I'm directing.
[00:24:49] I'm like, I think I'm in the wrong place. And it turns out, yeah, I was like 45 minutes
away. So I was a good half hour after call time. I've never been late as a director. And I was a
half hour after call time.
[00:24:59] It was a hundred degree day, a hundred degrees out. Everybody was just like, where,
where are you? Oh, that's the worst.
[00:25:06] John: I think I went to visit you that day and had that, went to that same and, you
know, like Calgary, I love everything about shooting in Calgary, but the one, the one thing they,
they have a real, like, yeah, you'll figure it out, like you've been there before, just figure it out,
you know, like there, there's not like maps, you're like, they don't give you like, here's the map
for how to get to the place.
[00:25:27] It's like, you got this, here's
[00:25:28] Stacy: there, haven't you? Well, yes.
[00:25:31] John: Where, yeah, one day
[00:25:32] I went to go to set.
[00:25:33] Sarah: much trust, there.

[00:25:35] John: I know, I know. I went to go to set to, you know, supervise and, and I get there
and I get out, you know, park and, and then I, I was like, Oh, I'm just going to throw my
backpack in the trailer and then go to set and, I'm looking around for my trailer walking up and
down and I was like, Huh, what the hell?
[00:25:52] And, uh, one of the Transpo(rtation guys was like, John, right? And I was like, yeah.
And he's like, you're on the wrong show. I had gotten to Billy the Kid and I was walking around
and I was like, where's my trailer? You know, like, I mean, I wasn't saying it mean, but I was like,
where's my trailer? I'm, confused.
[00:26:09] Drew: don't
[00:26:09] quite recognize any of these people.
[00:26:11] John: They're like, who are you?
[00:26:13] thankfully a transpo guy had been on our show and had moved to this show.
Apparently I hadn't realized he had left, but,
[00:26:19] Stacy: so amazing.
[00:26:21] Drew: So funny.
[00:26:22] Sarah: We're really proving something about writers here. I don't, I don't know what
the point is.
[00:26:26] Drew: I know.
[00:26:27] John: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Drew: them to find where they're going.
[00:26:30] Sarah: So any, so is there, the Super Crazy Writer, you, you go to set every day. You
know, you get there. Um, I like to get there early. You know, I don't, I'm a nerd, yes. I get there
early and, you know. You get your sides for the day and you'll, you'll know, you know, you know,
pretty far in advance, like what's being shot and as a supervising writer, you know, I would like
the night before to have like read through all the pages and just like mentally prepare for where
we're going for the day and think through the thing that's, you know, a lot of shows do block
shooting, not all of them, but even if you're not block shooting, you're not shooting in order, you
know, I did multicam early in my career and you do shoot in order and you're not shooting in
order.
[00:27:09] You've got to, like, reorient your brain. And again, because you're the keeper of the
story, you've got to figure out, okay, where in the story are all of these scenes coming? What
came before it? What came after it? Um, because, you know, what you realize on set is that,
like, you know, everybody has, like, blinders on to their job.
[00:27:25] And they should. They do their job really well, and they, you know, they really, really
care about the props, or they really care about whatever, and that is what they're there for. But
you're there to look at the whole picture, and If somebody, you know, if somebody in props is
like, oh, they get really excited and they want to do this other thing, you know, it's amazing.
[00:27:44] They have such enthusiasm, they care, but you have to step back and go, oh, that
actually doesn't work. Like, I love that idea, but that doesn't work because later on, this
character doesn't have a gun. They're not supposed to have a gun, so we give them a gun here,
or whatever the, you know, whatever the example is.

[00:27:57] Um, so, yeah, just like being prepared going in on set every day. Stacey was
amazing. Before I went to set, she gave me a rundown of like everything I should expect of, she
even gave me like phrases to use. I mean, Stacey's amazing. She's such like a, a lifelong
learner and I, you know, I love that about her.
[00:28:16] Like she's always taking notes at the end of like what she learned from the
experience. And so when I, I, before I went to set. We had like an, maybe an hour, two hour long
phone call, and she just downloaded, like, what I should expect, and going in with that
information, like, really helped my nerves and stuff, and feeling like I could prepare, and I, I
would recommend that, uh, for any on set writer, is, like, talk to friends that you have in
production, you know, just to get their experience of, like, what, if you haven't been before, like,
try, for me anyway, I like to prepare, like, talk to as many people, and if there, if there's been an
on set writer before you, like, call them up and just say, like, What's the set like?
[00:28:56] And every set vibe is different too, and like if you can get like a little bit of a heads up
about what the vibe on your set's like. Like some, some shows are like, there, there are certain
shows where actors need to say every single word exactly as written. There is no wiggle room.
And everybody knows that.
[00:29:13] It's like, as a writer on set, you're, you have to be following along and be like, Oh,
they changed this one little word and go in and say, Oh, can you say it the way it's written? On
our show, it's not, you know, I think the emotions are so important in the story. It's so important.
But if a character, you know, if the actor really likes this phrase a little bit better and it means the
exact same thing, it's more laid back of like, yeah, if you can deliver that more naturally and that
feels better for you, like, let's go with that direction.
[00:29:39] Um, and so knowing that going in of like talking to Stacey and being like, You know,
there's wiggle room here, you know, within reason for, for people to kind of like take ownership
and just learning all of that stuff about your set before, before you go as much as possible. And,

[00:29:53] Stacy: I was just thinking
[00:29:54] about
[00:29:54] that little cheat sheet I wrote for you and going, Oh my God, the next time I do this,
I'm going to have to look at that cheat sheet because I feel like this is, um, I did a similar thing
like the last time I was in a room. Um. I started making notes about how every day went, how
every, like before the coffee break, we did this before lunch.
[00:30:12] We did, you know, so that eventually when I'm running a room, I can look at it and not
panic and be like, okay, that's what we did. I feel like I'm going to have to do the same thing.
Like I'm going to have to review that cheat sheet because it's so long between projects. You
forget, I forget, I forget everything I learned.
[00:30:27] And then, yeah,
[00:30:28] it's
[00:30:28] Drew: I know. It's true.
[00:30:30] I feel like going back into directing next time I'll be like, I don't know how to do this .
[00:30:33] Stacy: Yeah, exactly.
[00:30:35] Drew: I gotta, I gotta like take a masterclass or something. I forget that

[00:30:38] John: Yeah. And Sarah, you mentioned like it helped your nerves. Like, was it nerve
wracking, uh, showing up for both of you, the first day of, you know, being an onset supervising
writer, or did it feel comfortable? Was it, uh, Kind of scary going into it. What, what was the
feeling?
[00:30:58] Sarah: I was pretty excited. I mean, I think my overall emotion was excitement
because I've been wanting to do this for so long, but there was definitely nerves. There's
definitely nerves of like, I don't know. Exactly where to be every day like I didn't know going in
and I think different sets have different Protocol, but like sometimes a writer is in video village so
for people that don't know like There's monitors that are set up for the producers and it's like a
little tent and chairs are set up But it's kind of removed from Where they're actually filming and
then the director has like a tiny monitor very close to set so that they can like quickly go talk to
the actors and Sometimes you're separated, and sometimes, and, um, I ended up being with the
directors the whole time, and I liked that way better, I didn't like being in a tent by myself, like, I
much, much prefer, cause you're also the script supervisor, is right next to the director, and
you're just sort of, then it's the three of you, like, you're kind of the brain trust for the episode, of
like, you have three sets of eyes looking at all the different things, and you're just right there, I
found it just easier, um, to be, to be so close.
[00:32:08] Stacy: Yeah. That's a discussion though, to be like, do you want me there? Where do
you want me? You know, like I prefer to say to the director, like, I kind of prefer to be close to
where the action is, but let me know if you don't like that. I can, you know,
[00:32:19] Drew: it really does take some assertiveness to kind of get in there because it's often,
you know, where the director is is often, you know, tight quarters. You might be in an interior
location where you're just tucked into a closet and like, you know, you really have to kind of dig
in there.
[00:32:32] And it's really, uh, I find that when it's not, you know, my episode if I'm not directing
and, uh, I find like... I can tend to just kind of retreat to that tent far off because it's comfortable,
or it's just, I'm not in anyone's face, you know, I, I, I have to kind of, if I want to go in and give a
note or something, I always have to kind of like, you know, you know, gird myself for, for, uh,
diving in, you know, so I felt like, you know, both of you guys were just like, you were just in
there all the time and that's what you have to do.
[00:33:00] And that's really so much more effective to be, you know, right in the middle of it
versus kind of, you know, standing on the edges.
[00:33:06] Sarah: Well, I think a difference, too, Drew, is that, like, you're, you're a boss, you're
their boss, you know, and you're also a director, like, whereas Stacey and I, like,
[00:33:14] we're more a resource for them, so it's a, like, I think, like, John was talking earlier,
where, you know, if you're a director and you're hovering over the director's back, there's a
sense of, like, are they,
[00:33:23] Drew: Yeah.
[00:33:24] Sarah: you know, questioning my decisions, whereas, like, if you're a writer, it's just,
again, the boundaries are so much more clear and you're, you're not stepping on anyone's toes.
[00:33:33] Hopefully not. That's, you know, you're not supposed to
[00:33:34] be
[00:33:34] Drew: Yeah. But I think that's a, that's a great point. And that's why the onset, you
know, the writing onset supervisor. So such a key position. It really is because it is just so
additive and not competitive and not, you know, it's really, you know, the fact that we used to not

have one, John is kind of crazy to me.
[00:33:51] Like this is, you know, we find so much benefit.
[00:33:54] Stacy: I want to bring the conversation back. Is that, can I jump in here? Otherwise
it's lost forever. Grips on toilets. Um, do you guys see grips on toilets? It's like a whole series of
memes or photos. You were telling that story about how everyone can be in a really tiny
location. Anyway, whenever the pickets or whenever there's a scene shot in their bedroom,
everyone, all the really key keys have to gather.
[00:34:17] In the bathroom, which is very tiny. So you've got the DP and, uh, you know, the head
electrician and, uh, and, uh, um, script supervisor and the director and sometimes the covering
writer and stuff, all in a powder room. Anyway, so, which can be very uncomfortable and
claustrophobic. Anyway, that led me to, I guess there's this whole series of photographs called
grips on toilets of like, of a.
[00:34:42] Drew: Yeah.
[00:34:44] Stacy: of a, you know, of a bathroom set while they're waiting for things to happen.
So anyway, go look up grips on toilets.
[00:34:49] Drew: great,
[00:34:51] John: pretty
[00:34:51] Stacy: So you see why I had to interrupt you, John, for that critical info.
[00:34:55] John: looping back to like, you know, talking about the brain trust of the director, the
script supervisor and the supervising writer. Like, I think a showrunner should not be standing, in
my mind, should not be standing there with, you know, the three of them or like, and that is to
your point, Drew, like, you know, part of the power of, um, having an on set supervising writer is
that's a, that's a comfort, not a threat, I, I think, you know, as a director, I can speak, you know,
from experience as a director.
[00:35:28] it can be very scary and especially like, you know, being an episodic director, like
sometimes you're showing up to somebody, you know, somebody else's show, this is a group
who knows each other, you don't really know them, but you have to project some sort of
authority, um, and then if you have the showrunner just like hovering over you, it can be
demoralizing and, and it can maybe be showing to the actors and everyone else that there's not
confidence in that director.
[00:35:56] And I think. Yeah. That is, you know, I think one of the big fears for a director. So I
think, you know, for me, like when I'm on set, like if there's a supervising writer, I, you know, I try
to like be as far away and, you know, maybe not even have anyone know I'm even there. Just sit
in a tent, watch a couple takes, just make sure everything's on track and then get out.
[00:36:18] especially when, you know, one of the two of you is supervising, cause then it's like,
oh, I'm going to hear if there's, you know, something. Something bananas is going on. Like, you
know what I mean? Like I don't have to, yeah, put the hours in, but can still get all the
information, which is really great.
[00:36:36] Stacy: Yeah.
[00:36:37] Sarah: I think that's why it's important to, like, having a good relationship with your
showrunner as a supervising writer. You know, like, you need, you need to, you're the liaison
between what's going on on set and your, and your showrunner. And I always felt super
comfortable. I mean, I've been working with you guys for a couple of years and So it was easy to

make that, you know, make those phone calls and to check in pretty regularly and not, you
know, it is the line of like, am I bugging?
[00:37:01] And I think Stacy's right, like, erring on the side of bugging your showrunner until they
say, no, you're, you don't need to, you don't need to call anymore. Um, but there are definitely
days when, like, you know, stuff's going on and you're like. Okay, I gotta call again and say, uh,
just gotta let you know what's going on here.
[00:37:20] Like, it's your, you know, it's your job of, you know, not, I don't want to say like you're
a spy on set, you're not, you're all, we're all a team, we're all in this together, but it's like, you're
the eyes and ears for, for your showrunner.
[00:37:30] Drew: Yeah. One thing I just want to make sure to mention, too, is like, Sarah, you
were so clear in the room. Like. I want to be, if you need a set super, like, I want to go to set, I
want to do that job, and like, that really helped us when we started getting into the, you know,
mechanics of breaking the season and everything, and like, we had another, you know, we had
Waco and Pickett happening at the same time, and like, okay, John and I had like a whole
calendar of the year grid of like, you'll be in Alberta, I'll be in Santa Fe, and then we'll switch, and
like, we had this whole thing, and like, anything moved a week, you know, the whole thing
would,
[00:38:00] you
[00:38:00] John: every time I looked at it, my, my chest, like I'd start to feel faint. I was like, I
can't even, I can't look at that
[00:38:06] Drew: Our assistant had it up on a, you know, corkboard in the, in the office and I
was like, I can't even go in there. Yeah. And, uh, of course, you know, everything pushes a week
and then, yeah, it would just totally unravel and like, and, uh, and that just kept coming back.
Well, like Sarah really wants, you know, to be on set, like we can, we can count on her.
[00:38:22] And so I guess my advice to, you know, staff writers out there, story editors out there
that want to, you know, Take that leap to go on set is just let your showrunners know early that
that's something you're really interested in and that you really want to do it. And then if the
opportunity comes up, you just have to, you know, you know, Sarah, you're a mother, you've got
obligations at home, but you just cleared the decks, you know, like we never heard about any,
you know, personal conflicts or anything.
[00:38:44] You were just there. And I think that's really, uh, you know, uh, really good to put that
out there early.
[00:38:49] John: Yeah. And that we wouldn't necessarily clock that we, you know, we might've
thought, you know, like, Oh, she, you know. She has a kid, like she may not want to be away for
a while, um, but we didn't realize that maybe you want to be away for a while, because that's
awesome! You know. Yeah.
[00:39:05] Sarah: I have to say, like, having gone through the pandemic with a young kid, and
my husband is a second year director, so he's on set a lot, and Um, when we were in picket
room season two, my husband was gone for like three and a half months on location and I was
just on my own juggling like, you know, a toddler and working and, you know, constant COVID
scares and all that nonsense.
[00:39:28] And, um, so when, when I got the opportunity to go away, even though I was working,
you know, like longer days than I've ever worked ever, it was so easy. I was like, Anything that
happened on set, I'm like, guys, I have dealt with a really cranky toddler on my own for three
months. This is a breeze.

[00:39:47] Stacy: you don't have to cook a damn thing.
[00:39:49] Sarah: I didn't have to cook anything.
[00:39:51] I literally, I gave
[00:39:52] Stacy: They just feed
[00:39:52] Sarah: Yes, they just feed you. It's,
[00:39:54] Stacy: Yeah. When you're the person who feeds other people, that's like such a
miracle. And then, and then I think the opposite is true too, in terms of, I totally, I'm so glad you
guys brought that up about. Sarah raised her hand and said, this is something I'm interested in.
[00:40:07] And you were really cool about it. You said it once, twice, you know, you made it clear
and you brought it up maybe once every couple of months. So it was just the right amount of
saying still interested, you know, want to go. Um, but we kind of had the, uh, the opposite side of
the coin with Nelson. Cause he was, you know, our strong number two who ran the room for
season two.
[00:40:25] And then he, uh. He was the supervisor and writer for the first block and he was
about to have, his wife was about to have their second child. So he was a clear communicator
about that, of being like, so happy to be here. This is great. Just want to remind you guys that
when block two rolls around, I'm going to be back in the States seeing my child being born, uh,
you know, which, anyway, so that's cool.
[00:40:49] It's
[00:40:49] a good
[00:40:49] John: forced Drew and I to look at the grid and
[00:40:51] have panic attacks and be like, okay, well, I'll stop directing because we were
directing, you know, all those Waco episodes too. So it was, yeah, but
[00:41:00] Stacy: know, I think that's good. I think that's good in a, like a, down with the
patriarchy. Like, it's great that dads can raise a hand and say, like, my family is important to me.
It's great that moms can raise a hand and say my work is important to me. And they both exist.
It's not like, it's not like it's a dirty secret of like, never say your child's name.
[00:41:18] You
[00:41:18] know, but, but just let, yeah, just being clear about it. And, and, and which of course
means you have to have those conversations at home ahead of time.
[00:41:27] John: yeah, I got to say that's, that's one of the things I really learned from M. Night
Shyamalan when we worked with him was every day, six o'clock work is done. That's his family
time. There is no, uh, No, give on that. You know what I mean? Like, and like, it didn't matter
what was going on, like six o'clock he was and, and I found that like, wow, he, like, I almost
didn't feel like I had the right to say that, you know what I mean?
[00:41:56] To be like my fan, like I'm planting this flag to protect my family time. Cause this is a
priority. Um, and I dunno, that, that really, I feel like helped give me permission on that front.
[00:42:08] Drew: Yeah.

[00:42:08] Stacy: Cool. That's so
[00:42:09] cool.
[00:42:10] John: Uh, so yeah, let's wrap it up.
[00:42:11] Stacy: What's a, what's a good actionable tip of the week? We forgot that last time.
God, I love action items.
[00:42:17] Sarah: Okay, for my, my action item for on set supervisor is wear comfortable shoes.
[00:42:22] Stacy: Ooh.
[00:42:24] John: that's great advice.
[00:42:26] Sarah: I mean, especially if you're on, I mean, it's, it's silly, but it is, it is true. Like be
comfortable, be prepared. Like. If you're used to sitting in your office all day, if you're going to be
out in the wilderness, like, you know, just be, be prepared and be comfortable because, um,
you're going to be sitting in some really weird, you know, on logs a lot and tromping through.
[00:42:49] Stacy: Yeah.
[00:42:50] Sarah: Wilderness, but I mean you may not have that show, but
[00:42:53] Drew: true. It's a lot more sitting on logs and in like, in the dirt and yeah, it's amazing
like where you find a comfortable place to sit and park it for like three hours, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:03] Stacy: Jumping on that is keep a ballpoint pen clip to the front of your shirt. Like this.
If anyone can see the video, I did, I did it every day and I swear to God, it made me feel. I'm like,
I am so cool. I'm the only person who has to
[00:43:16] Sarah: you're ready. You're ready at a moment's notice.
[00:43:20] Drew: Stacey, a pet on her shirt, and a gallon of water, yeah.
[00:43:24] Stacy: and a gallon of water, that's
[00:43:26] John: Stacey would have like a milk jug, like I'd show up to set and I'd see the milk
jug full of water. I'd be like, Oh, Stacey's here somewhere. Yeah. Stacey's not far away from that
milk jug of water.
[00:43:37] Stacy: I got to stay hydrated.
[00:43:38] Sarah: Oh, I have another actionable item. I feel like, um, when you get to set, just
going around to every department and introducing yourself. I mean, it's such a basic thing, but
just finding out who people are, finding out what they do. It just makes you so much more
approachable as a writer, and then, I know for me, like, I wanted to learn everything I could
about set.
[00:43:59] I looked at it as a learning opportunity. As much as I was there to do a job, I looked at
it just as much as like, this is a learning opportunity for my own writing in the future. Because the
stuff you learn, like, if I go on to season three of Joe Pickett, if we get that, like, I now have
information that can help the writers room.
[00:44:15] I now understand our sets in a certain way. Like, so one, I'm like, taking in that
information for my own show. And then personally, I'm taking in, like, if I get to run my own show

one day. What are people doing? How is this working? What's working really well? And just
using it as an opportunity to get as much out of it as I can.
[00:44:35] John: That's great. That's great. I would say introducing yourself to the actors too,
because it doesn't help them to have an on set writer. If they don't know the person's there, you
know, like, especially early in the day, a lot of actors show up to set and like. Oh, I just finally
read the scenes, and I, I don't know why my character would say this thing, um, and often the
director doesn't know, uh, but the on set supervisor, you know, will know or, you know what I
mean?
[00:45:03] Like, or will at least be a sounding board of sorts, if the actor knows to look for them.
Mm
[00:45:08] Stacy: to start doing that. That's a good one. Well, that's plenty of actionable items. I
think we Can say, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us
wherever you get your podcasts. And please tell a friend about us. We're doing a little
grassroots campaign here, trying to spread the word.
[00:45:26] So that all really helps us find our audience. Thank you. We appreciate you listening.
[00:45:31] Drew: And thanks so much for joining us, Sarah.
[00:45:33] Sarah: It's always delightful. I love talking to you.
[00:45:36] Drew: Yeah, really good to see your
[00:45:37] Stacy: Us too.
[00:45:38]
[00:45:46]