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John: Let's get right into it. Stacy, you wanna take it away?
Stacy: That show that, show that showrunner show. Welcome to the podcast called The
Showrunner Show.
Drew: nice and nice and simple. I like it.
John: simple.
Drew: Yeah.

Drew: Well,
Stacy: Thank you.
Drew: to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of
show running. For anyone who works in tv, who wants to work in TV or just wants to know how
it's all made, I'm Drew Dowell.
John: I'm John Eric Dole,
Stacy: And I'm Stacey Saboski. Welcome. Welcome back, Philip Noyce. What
John: This week we're again talking with iconic film and TV director, Philip Noyce. Uh, and this
week we wanted to talk specifically about the pilot director, showrunner relationship where. You
know, by the time you're like going to series, you've probably been working on a show for years
really care about it.
And then, you know, the studio or network or someone says, okay, we wanna, we found this
amazing like, you know,
Drew: iconic
John: to come in to do your pilot. And I'm sure there's a simultaneous excitement and fear and
we just sort of wanted to talk that through with you. Like, Do showrunners ever treat you like the
enemy when you show up and how do you, uh, I don't know.
Uh,
Phillip: just, uh, recently, um, we got a new member in our family here, um, who is, uh, on a
scholarship from, uh, uh, has joined my, uh, son's basketball team at his high school. that kid is
six feet, 10 inches tall.
Drew: Wow.
Phillip: Yeah. So, um, he's put me, uh, through the paces that I probably put other people
through being six feet, five and 307 pounds as of yesterday.
Um, you know, and, and, uh, so when I'm dealing with him, um, I realized his power, his force.
Um, strength, his overwhelmingness, uh, and, and it's made me over this last few months
realize that, uh, you know, this is not necessarily a good thing if you are a pilot director, uh, and

you're dealing with a show runner.
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: you know, you're coming in and you're big and you've done 19 movies, and maybe
that's not the best, uh, that's not the best relationship that that can be established. And I've only
realized this in the last two months since James has been living with us.
Stacy: Ha.
Phillip: It is pretty late in life to make these realizations. I agree. I mean, I know you must be
looking at me and thinking, how can this guy be so insensitive? He's taken all this time. He's 73
years old and he's only just realized that maybe he's a little bit too much Um, but. I will say I
have realized that and, uh, having traced it back and gone through, you know, sleep studies and
everything, that, that is not sleeping at night and thinking about, you know, back to 2001 and my
relationship with a certain, any that I was working with them or 1998 or whatever, uh, and
thinking, oh, you know, maybe I should have taken a, a leaf out of the book that I'm.
telling James about, which is never reply, never. You know, you've got it being big. It means
you've gotta be small. You must, and then I remembered what I, what I said is the most
important thing in directing and, it is the most important thing in working with anybody,
particularly with showrunners.
And that is that you've gotta have a strong back. But you've gotta have a soft front. It's important
that everyone understands where you're going and, and that you'll get them there, but you must
have a soft front, meaning that anyone that you're come in contact with, and particularly a
showrunner, must always be able to feel that they can approach you. 'cause they, being the
runner, not the show runner, but the literally the runner, um, um, the coffee maker, the assistant,
or anyone, they might have the idea that you need, and so often they do, but only if you let them
in.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: you need to let in the showrunner, you've gotta have the softest front.
It's gotta be made of. Merino wool from Australia, you know, because it's gotta, it's gotta feel like

Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: want to get caught up in it, you know? It helps if you've got sort of man breasts. But, um,
Stacy: That's gonna be the
actionable tip of the week.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: anyway, um, uh, what was the question? Uh.
John: Oh, that's so
Drew: good just
John: to

Drew: to have the soft
John: And you
Drew: mention before
John: in, last week's episode, you talked about shooting the pilot before the pilot, which must be
a great way to, I don't know, have a, a project to work with the, you know, showrunner on,
or, or,
Phillip: can
John: know.
Phillip: It can be. It can can also be, um. It can also work the other way in as much as you show
the, uh, pilot to the network and the studio and they all love
Drew: Love.
Phillip: and they say, don't change a thing, that can be a little daunting, because. The
showrunner may have wanted to change this or that, but that's where you've, but the, but the,
but the head of the network loves it.
But that's where
John: Yeah.
Phillip: soft front is so important,
John: how much of the job, you know, in, in the pilot directing is, is kind of negotiating all those
different voices and, you know, helping, helping them get along with each other. 'cause you
know, I assume sometimes the showrunner. very differently about things than the network and
vice versa. Like how much of your job is, I don't know, just helping them
find a common ground or,
Phillip: it's not that, you know, we're. we all, pretty soon after you finish shooting, realize that it's
between us and the audience
John: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: because you go, you go to test straight away and then, you know, when you've probably
been in those tests where, you're sitting looking through a one mirror, um, and there's 45 people
analyzing.
show, uh, uh, in the room there, you know, some of them do it with such glee, uh, that you feel
they must be, they must be professional analyzers who come here every, every week. Uh,
particularly in Burbank, you know, if you get, get what I'm saying, uh, which is where they
usually have these testing places, you know?
John: Oh, just how much of your, pilot directing is helping the showrunner and the network get
along, or, or helping navigate or negotiate, you know, amongst all the different voices
Phillip: in my experience, it usually becomes, um, the director against everyone.

John: Interesting.
Phillip: Because what happens is
the umbilical cord gets broken, you know, on
John: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Phillip: the day, they've gotta get all the shots, they've gotta get all the story points, they've
gotta get all the character points, you know, and you can't help if you're on the network or the
studio or, or you're the showrunner. You can't help but be anxious. About that.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: mm.
Phillip: Um, so, so that's what I found.
I've found that it's me against everyone. Not that it's me against everyone at all, it's just that, you
know, you're on your own. you, you just gotta keep them all happy. 'cause they're all paranoid
and nervous and,
John: Yeah.
Phillip: and. You know, your job job is to get them there. It's like a ship in the, in, in the, in, in a
storm.
You know, you gotta, you gotta pilot it through.
Drew: have a question just about, in the pilot, pre-production phase, like in casting, like how
much as a pilot director, you know, how much of the decision of, you know, casting the leads is
on you versus the showrunner, and have you ever been in a situation where you've had, uh, with
the showrunner about casting an important character that you just thought they, they had the
wrong idea?
Phillip: Um, ultimately it's gonna be up to the network. they're the ones, well, they're not the
ones who are paying necessarily. It all depends on whether it's with the studio or all those
questions. but it's not you, you're not paying. Their
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: it's usually, uh, a, a, a, a process, uh, where, you know, the best idea wins, sometimes
the best idea doesn't obviously
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: I did a pilot a few years ago that didn't get picked up and the head of the, uh, of the
network. Had their eye on a particular actor from two years prior who they were sure was going
to uh, be a big star. The showrunner who shall remain anonymous did not agree,
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: but the head of the network was insistent.
So much so that the head of casting at the network. Threatened the showrunner with being
removed from the show unless he did what the network head wanted.

Drew: Wow.
Phillip: Showrunner was 100% right?
Drew: Really.
Phillip: Yeah, 100% right.
Stacy: Ugh.
Phillip: In everything that he said, he was right, and as soon as we got to testing it became
evident
Stacy: Oh.
Phillip: It
Drew: Wow.
Phillip: the director did,
Stacy: Mm
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: was not someone destined to, to have their own show.
Stacy: mm.
Phillip: so
John: in, what do you do in that situation when you're
like, okay, well good luck, Philip.
Phillip: you
John: Here's a.
Phillip: blame someone else, you know?
Stacy: Yeah. Yep.
Phillip: Yeah, that's what you do. Same as
Stacy: Mm
Phillip: do.
Stacy: mm.
Drew: It's good survival tip right there. Good survival.
Phillip: particularly, you
Drew: Yeah.

Phillip: the, network heads going to another network anyway next year, so what the hell?
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. yeah.
Drew: find that process, that process, like casting, everybody is so opinionated in the casting
when it comes to casting and wardrobe. Those are like the two things that absolutely
everybody at the.
Phillip: Wardrobe. Oh my God. Don't, don't even mention it. You know, that's why so much in
my preparation is, and I'll send them to you if you send me, uh, email. So much of the
preparation is inspiration, meaning here's what the, here's how we're gonna address them.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: two days before you shoot the pilot, you do a final wardrobe check and you'd better
have 10 different choices for every single wardrobe change
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: this is where the cleaning man. Suddenly becomes an expert. You know,
Drew: I know
Stacy: Yeah.
Phillip: wandering through the wandering through the network, uh, the network, uh, uh, heads,
uh, office while they're looking at these photos. I don't like that. like that. You know? Yeah. You're
gonna get it from everyone. And then when you walk through all of those people, there'll still be
someone else.
You know? Uh, in the case of that show, it was the, the casting, the head of casting at the, at the
network who kept, who kept sending, uh, notes about the wardrobe. So it's
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: everyone can be an expert on wardrobe, you although that's not true, I mean on the on,
on revenge, we had a Canadian. Wardrobe. A designer who just such a great job, it was like we
only needed like one of everything,
John: Wow.
Phillip: just just said yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. so maybe it's not such a, um, um, fishing
expedition, but it can be.
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: be,
yeah.
Phillip: it is up to, you know, that the, the brilliance of that, of that person. Ruth Carter, of
course, uh, did Roots, won the Academy Ward, what, twice now.
Drew: Well,

Phillip: and certainly no one ever argued with any little thread she suggested.
Drew: yeah.
Phillip: she, she was, she is bonafide, you know, a genius.
Drew: Yeah, that's
helpful. That's helpful to
John: Yeah.
Drew: have a a, you know, costume designer at that level that nobody questions. Then it just
takes a lot of chatter. Right. Uh, right off the table.
John: Yeah. What,
Drew: what are
John: things you've seen, uh, showrunners do that have really helped you, you know, that, that
have been beneficial to you as you showed up
Phillip: Well, um, I showed up or the shoot, I, I
John: or during the shoot or at any point in the process?
Phillip: I
John: I.
Phillip: you know, um, there was, um, uh, a scene in, uh, a resident, uh, pilot, um, where a
character comes in and looks at a certain patient and gives a diagnosis and it just wasn't
working. Um. And, uh, I was wasting a lot of time trying to get it to work.
And then as I, uh, said in the last episode, um, uh, Amy Holden Jones came from her perch way
over on the other side of the, of the studio where she'd kept herself from me and me from her,
uh, and just whispered in my ear and gave me the whole solution, uh, to the problem, which was
very simple.
Stacy: What was it? I'm in suspense. What was the solution? What'd she whisper?
Phillip: uh, she just whispered that you need to take a reverse shot on that particular character,
that's all. And then you'll be able to cut between all those other takes she took earlier that you
can't cut between because of the way you you're shooting it.
Stacy: Mm
John: Wow.
Phillip: from, a showrunner who had a career as a director.
Stacy: mm-Hmm.
Phillip: um, much earlier in her career.
so

John: That's really cool.
Phillip: the process. Yeah. casting, you know, you get a lot of, uh, great ideas from your
showrunner in the casting process 'cause they know who they've written for
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: and inevitably they watch more TV than you do. Um, so they know who's out there. Um,
Emily Van Camp.
Who, uh, was the lead in revenge. And then now that I knew her, I asked her to join in the re in
the resident. Um, that was Mike Kelly's idea. You know, he, he knew her from some of her
earlier shows
Stacy: Mm.
Phillip: I didn't even know who, who she was. Uh, you know, Mike brought her in and, uh, of
course she got the, the lead role for, what, six seasons or something?
Yeah. Um, so casting is where I found a great, you know, a showrunners are such a great help,
but also because they know, uh, you know, you know that their choosing someone for their
longevity.
Drew: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Phillip: You know, which, uh, we all would hope would be 10 seasons, but, um, but at least two.
Um,
John: Know.
Phillip: so they're going for the long haul.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: in a movie, say you're casting, you know, you're just going for that one hit. Uh. So it's a
slightly different calculation often based on, um, how up the food chain the actor is.
John: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: whereas, you know, in, in, in, in television, you know you're going for other commodities,
other characteristics all that up to longevity that the character and the actor will grow on the
audience,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: which is what you need to do.
And, and
John: Yeah.
Phillip: great instincts for that. I found
Drew: Yeah.

John: but yeah, I assume part of the calculation too with the, when casting an actor in a.
Ongoing series is will this, will this actor make my life horrible two years from now? When, what I
mean? When they're in charge of everything and, uh, um, uh, or, you know, are, are, are they
good natured?
You know, I, I think some of that is probably pretty important for the ongoing.
Phillip: It can be
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Makes sense.
Phillip: I have done, I have done I won't mention what I've done actually. Now we, I better not
mention what I've done. Oh,
John: Oh, come on. We wanna hear it.
Phillip: I won't, I won't, I won't comment on that one. you said, you know, how's the acting
gonna be in two years? Uh uh, uh,
John: That's funny.
Phillip: Some
John: something?
Phillip: secrets need to remain secrets.
Drew: No, that's fair. That's fair. I respect. Respect that a lot. Do you have when you, when you
do a pilot or you do, you know, pilot plus one, uh. And then the season goes on. Do you ever
find that the showrunner, uh, do you make yourself available to a showrunner or to a network as
the season goes on, to come back and, and get your creative opinion on things?
Or are you pretty much done when you're done?
Phillip: Uh, no. Yeah,
Drew: Cool.
Phillip: on revenge they kept me on as a consulting producer.
Drew: Uhhuh
Phillip: Uh, not insulting, but consulting. Um,
Drew: and
Stacy: Um,
Drew: producer, I love it.

Stacy: I want that job. Yeah.
John: Well, at least you'd know who the person is. You know, when take
off guard.
Phillip: you know, I would, um, I would, uh, write some notes and send them along on a take it
or leave it basis.
Drew: Right.
Phillip: No.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: I don't know whether they took them or left them, but I, or maybe I was sending the, the
notes to a dead letter office that was reserved pilot directors.
Drew: But that
is.
Phillip: I'd get a thank you, uh, but not always.
Drew: Yeah. No, but that's, uh,
that's interesting though, that
Phillip: have to accept that. if you get a show up, that's a miracle
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: you might've helped, um, to make that true. Um, and, and helped to birth the show. Um,
but you gotta pass it on to the showrunner in particular. who, who, who's gonna see it through?
Drew: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: I guess it's like a surrogate, isn't it?
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: and they've gotta give that baby back. Um, and the baby's gonna be brought up and,
and nurtured by, you know, their real, their, their, their, their, their real parents. Um,
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: and um, you just have to accept that, unless you're gonna be on the show and continue
on it week in, week out, um, I think sometimes in some ways they're better off without the pilot
director, you know?
John: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: many problems trying to keep up and I haven't even ever had to cope with that. Imagine
the 22 episode that. And 23
Stacy: mm.

Drew: I know,
Phillip: that used to be on,
Drew: I know.
Phillip: for the showrunner. I don't know how they cope
Drew: No. Me neither.
Phillip: really.
Stacy: cocaine.
Phillip: I don't believe. I don't believe that. Uh. Um, just the, the, the conveyor belt of it all
Stacy: Yeah.
Phillip: so
Drew: yeah.
Phillip: week after week and just, wow.
I, I, I,
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: I couldn't, I couldn't do it, to tell you the truth, I could not be that person. could not
John: Oh
Phillip: myself out. I could not tire myself out so
Drew: Yeah.
John: yeah,
Drew: Yeah.
John: I mean, just even doing,
Phillip: particular skill that,
John: yeah.
Phillip: and that's the reason why, showrunners have become the superstars of our industry
with the, with the, um, um, streaming that have
Stacy: Mm.
Phillip: so many shows, you know.
Even more than in network television. The ability of a showrunner to be able to that story
through episode after episode season after seasons become even more valuable. So

Drew: So much so now that,
Phillip: know, it's not just, I mean, I, I think that it goes like this. It used to be actors number one,
directors number two, writers, number three.
Now it's right as number one up there with actors just as highly sought after as absolutely
essential and believe it or not, but accept it. Guys, directors three,
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: Interesting.
Phillip: down
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: Because there's, there's, there's, there's 28 directors can almost do the same job.
There's, there's maybe three showrunners who could do, who could produ, who could make that
show.
And maybe three actors. But there's a lot of directors who could almost do the same. And that's
the truth. It really is.
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: that's
Drew: that's so,
Phillip: that we directors to realize if you want to be in charge, then write it baby.
Drew: yeah,
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah,
Drew: I
know it's true.
Phillip: after the pilot
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: hello to episodic direction.
Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: I have to say like if you know, as showrunners, it would've been so, you know. There's so
many voices when it comes to the notes as you get into the episodes, and there's so many
different opinions and conflicting opinions between the network and the studio and everything
that, you know, if, if we ever had, like you directing a pilot, for example, I would think we would

be, you know, on episode six and seven, be like, what, what do you think?
What does Philip think of this? You know, like to have that sounding board of someone
Stacy: Mm
Drew: just loves the show and isn't beholden to either of
Stacy: mm.
John: Um,
Drew: and just, you know, like that would be just a dream
John: like I say, if you were getting
Drew: those notes secretly
John: wasn't going to you and the
Drew: Yeah. Yeah,
John: time, because
Stacy: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.
John: ways. I, you
Drew: Yeah.
John: I mean?
Phillip: I used to send my notes to, who did I send them to? Oh, I think I sent them to the studio
to pass on if they wanted to. That's what I would do.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Mm
Phillip: I would send them to the studio, as you want. Here's some
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: so I
Drew: so I
Phillip: bug the showrunner.
Stacy: oh.
John: the.
Phillip: it would be like whispering in the air of the studio and they could use them or not.

Never
Drew: never revealed.
Phillip: heard of them or throw them out.
Stacy: Mm
John: great.
Drew: That is great. That is great.
Stacy: hmm.
John: Uh, and here what, what is something you've seen showrunners do that have, uh, made
your life, like, made it difficult for you as you're working on a, a project? What is so,
you know, a pit pitfall to avoid?
Phillip: A pitfall to avoid is inviting, uh, your family to come over and sit with the director and
watch. That's, that's really hard. You know? I mean,
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: your father, your
John: I.
Phillip: your brother's kid.
to concentrate, you're trying to, you're trying to get inside the actor. 'cause even though you, I
mean, when you are, when we, before we had video assist, we would sit there and we'd try and
get inside the actor sitting beside the camera. You'd try and climb inside their body and mine
and um, and you can still do that.
the monitor, you sort of climb inside them and you like send messages, um, to them by osmosis,
but you can't do that if the family of the showrunner is sitting there, you know, just all the magic
goes out, out the door.
Drew: Yeah, I'll tell you
Phillip: and that is the most important direction that a director gives is in two words, action.
Action. Action. Action. And cut it. Cut, cut. Now each of those different intonations means
something different to everyone on the set, but
it's also the way you say Action is the last. And often the most important, piece of direction that
you'll give to the actor.
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: the actor a lot of bullshit is not a good idea, especially on today.
Today's schedules, gotta, you gotta get to into them quickly. They don't want to know about the
whole life. That's for the weeks, the week, or the weeks beforehand. Going back to when they
were born and what they did and what they had for breakfast last week and all of that stuff. You
haven't got time for that.

now you gotta work in shorthand and, and action. And action. can be all that's needed. And
reason that cut is important is because it tells, it is it is combined with action. Cut it. Now. What
do you think that means? Not that you're going, that, not that you've finished the scene,
Drew: Yeah.
Yeah,
Phillip: it doesn't mean that, um, it means you're going again, but it's, but it, but without you
telling the actor anything, you've just sent a message, um, to them.
Um, without saying anything, without pinpointing, accusing, without,
Stacy: Yeah.
Phillip: any of that stuff.
Drew: fascinating.
I love that.
Phillip: said, uh, yes. The worst thing that a showrunner can do is bring their father.
John: That's, that's, funny. but we.
Phillip: and that's, that's also because in my case, you know, the father's usually younger than
me, so that can also be a problem.
John: Yeah, it's funny, we, we had, uh, one show we were doing, we and I was directing that
day we had the director who was doing the next block was there sort of watching. And she said
this woman came in and was watching the monitors and was like, oh, the character picked that
up too soon. That's not the way, like I don't believe that.
Like, and she was like, oh, this must be a, a, like an exec or you know, someone from the
network. And it turns out it's my mom. It's my mom. And shown up to set. And she was sitting at
the monitors complaining about like what I was shooting. And we like to ask, uh, every guest,
uh, four questions we call the Rapid Fire four. And we'll start with what is the first television show
you truly loved and why? Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: Okay, so that would be the rifleman, starring Chuck Connors. Um, it was created and
the pilot was written by Sam Peck and Par.
John: Oh wow.
Phillip: Um, it, um, was. 53 of the 168 episodes were directed by one of my favorite, um, um,
directors the fifties. That's Joseph H. Lewis, who directed the incredible film Gun Crazy. Um, and

John: Wow.
Phillip: Um, he directed the majority of the, of the, uh, of, of the episodes. Um, you know, I
guess that was the series that started me the idea of action movies. Um, I love Chuck Connor's
character, um, the Western setting, the kid. Uh, I forget who played the kid. Um, was on, uh, in
Australia from about 1958 1963.
John: Wow.

Phillip: I was eight to 13, uh, when I was watching that. And,
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: yeah, it just, it got inside me.
Drew: Yeah, I've never seen it.
Phillip: to meet Joseph H. Lewis, and he told me that he owed his whole career that movie.
Or not career, but life because. He directed 53 episodes, and it was the beginning of the DGA
when the DGA paid res got residuals out of the studios.
Stacy: Oh.
Phillip: had a beautiful boat down there at, uh, Santa Monica And uh, uh, you know, he would
go out fishing, I would go with him. Um, and it was all because of the rifleman.
So that
Stacy: Mm.
Phillip: special treat for me later in life
Drew: That's great.
Phillip: that, that beguiled me as a kid.
John: That's
amazing.
Drew: That is amazing.
Phillip: Um, check it out.
Drew: I've never seen the rifleman.
Yeah,
Phillip: that, uh, that rifle is amazing. The cutting, the framing, the stories, they're all just
brilliant. Um, Joseph H. Lewis and, and Sam Peck and far.
John: Yeah. I didn't realize Peck and Paw. Yeah.
Drew: I had heard a tv. Yeah. That.
Stacy: Here's another question number two. What is your favorite part of the job?
Phillip: My favorite part of the job is the fact that you get instantaneous gratification
Stacy: Ooh.
Phillip: to movies where you know, you like spend up to 15 years thinking about trying to get the
money and the actors, and then you make the movie and then might be another year before it
comes out in a pilot. It's. You read it on a, on a Tuesday, you're shooting six weeks later and
about a week later, you know, whether it's going ahead or not, it's just all over so quickly. So it's,

Stacy: Yeah.
Phillip: you know, it's like being in a candy shop, really just instantaneous gratification.
Drew: Yeah, that's so true. All right, question three. Uh, what is the part of the job that costs you
something?
Phillip: The part of the job that cost me so. Oh my God. Um, uh, I'd say getting to that first
preview,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: um, when you've finished and you've got five days until it's gonna be previewed around
the country, um, that costs you a lot. gotta work as many hours as you can, at least 20 a day.
Um, often, even longer.
It's hard to get it outta your head even when you do have three hours sleep, you know? And, uh,
so yeah, the first preview of a pilot,
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: me a lot.
Drew: I get it. Yeah, no, I get it. It's brutal. It's brutal.
Phillip: So all, all, all fallen out. You know,
Stacy: Um
Phillip: whole, I've got scars all over me and inside me from that, that, first preview of a pilot
period.
Stacy: hmm.
John: Yeah,
Drew: We feel that too.
Phillip: I've gone crazy. I've gone crazy during that time, you know,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: you can do is force yourself to sleep. So that often means. You've gotta 'cause you,
cause it's after 21 hours, you know you just gotta sleep. you gotta take one of those over the
counter unisons stuff it in your mouth and then you gotta wake up three hours later and it's like,
how do you do that?
Well you've gotta go and have coffee, you know, in anyway you, that's how
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: you your life

Drew: Yeah, I get it.
Just, yeah,
John: yeah,
yeah.
Stacy: Fi
Drew: it's.
Stacy: long does that period last? Like how many
days or weeks are you talking about?
Phillip: it can be as short as a week and as long as a month.
Stacy: Hmm.
John: Oh, wow.
Phillip: you know? It depends. 'cause of course, if the first is a big success, huh? You know, it's
all over you're just cleaning it up, you know. But if the first preview is not a big success, then
you've gotta keep going until you get it to be one.
You know?
John: Yeah.
Phillip: So,
John: Wow.
yeah.
Phillip: you know, uh, I mean that's in the old days. now I don't know what the rules are now
because, you know, do they still have upfronts? Yes, they do. But do they up But they don't have
a pilot system? Well, they sort of do. I mean, I
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: our whole world is turned upside down with the streaming wars, of course.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah,
John: Yeah.
Phillip: Now, it used to be just laid out nicely. Pilot season starts there, it finishes here, and then
everyone goes to New York and has a party and announces, oh. Anyway, it's all changed.
John: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. That is amazing.
John: question four, if you had a time machine, what one piece of advice would you give
yourself when you started your, filmmaking and television journey? I.

Phillip: Oh.
The one piece of advice I'd give, which I've just learned by success and failure is that you are as
a director, if you're not a director, writer, you are totally and utterly a success or a failure
according to the quality of the script that you're directed.
Drew: Yeah.
Yeah.
Phillip: it's to totally, totally. Now, yes, you'll bring something to it.
Yes, you'll enhance it. Yes, you'll make it work. But if you, you know, every time I've gone outside
of that rule, it's cost me.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: Every time I've stuck to the rule, it's paid me
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: endlessly. Go for the script, not the idea. The script. The script. The script. The script.
What's written down, not the concept,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: they can sell the script.
It's gotta be on the paper or.
Stacy: Uh,
Phillip: The phone as
Drew: Yeah. No, that's great. That's great advice.
Phillip: have gotta be there.
Drew: No, it's.
Phillip: and that's if you are obviously, if you're director as opposed to a director writer, different
for a director writer,
Stacy: Right.
Phillip: that's the ultimate job in the whole world.
Drew: Yeah, that's really great advice. 'cause
I mean, anyone in our, yeah.
Anyone in our business knows just how, it seems like it gets more and more like this every year.
But the, it's the concepts, the studios and the networks. And in, in movies too, it's, they're trying
to sell concepts and ideas and like, um, and the script always kind of comes later and, um, um,

yeah, it's, it's
hard to avoid. Yeah, Yeah.
John: Mm-Hmm.
Phillip: yeah, I mean, stay with the script writer.
Drew: Yeah.
that. that's wonderful.
John: so actionable tip of the week. Uh, Philip said, if
Drew: if you wanna be in Yeah.
John: I'm gonna quote that. That's, that was so good.
Drew: Philip, thank you so, so much for, uh, joining us here, these two episodes. We really
appreciate it. It's just been wonderful.
we'll send you an email too, 'cause we'd love to, we'd love to, uh, uh, see one of your, one of
those, uh, pilot pilots. Uh, so we'll, we'll make sure to be in touch.
John: And we'll put that in the
show notes.
Drew: Yeah.
Okay. Thanks Philip. Bye.