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John: Well, let's jump in. Uh, Stacey, uh, every week, does a new theme song. So we'll let her,
uh.
Craig: Oh
John: it away.
Stacy: Okay. There is a podcast, it's called The Showrunner Show, and you should listen to it
wherever you go, you should subscribe to it so you can be in the know about the topics we
discuss between our guests and us on the show. We call The Showrunner Show.
John: Amazing.
Drew: Nicely done. All right.
Stacy: Slow clap. I love it.
Craig: It was a, it was a good full speed. If there was more volume to it, registered.

Drew: welcome to the showrunner show where every week we demystify some aspect of the
job of showrunning for anyone who works in TV or wants to work in TV or just wants to know
how it's all made. I'm Drew Doudle.
John: I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: And I'm Stacey Shabosky. We're so glad you're here and we're so glad our guest is here.
Woo.
John: Me. Yeah. This week we're talking about the role of the directing producer with Craig
Brewer. Craig, we're so excited to have you on. Uh, Craig is, uh, uh, film filmmaker known for,
you know, writing and directing seminal movies like Hustle and Flow, black Snake Moan, uh,
coming to America Too. Um, he also worked as a producing director and EP, I believe, on, uh,
Empire
Craig: Yeah, the, uh, the official title of producer director belongs to Sena Hamry. Um, and I, I
did not hold that title and, and, but I, I was kind of a little bit, uh, of a, of an interesting, um, Uh,
producer over at Empire because I not only worked in the writer's room, but I would, I would
direct numerous episodes.
So when, when Senna needed to direct episodes, I kind of, uh, was, was the person that always
kind of like lined her up, but I, I do, I can, I can definitely speak a lot to it, but, uh, it's, uh, it's, it
was, it was quite a, quite a role there on Empire for a few years. Yeah.
Drew: show was. And, you know, for us, like in our experience, we've had, you know, four
seasons of TV, but we've done a lot of the directing ourselves. We've just never, uh, been able
to quite take that step forward where we're able to like install a producing director. And I think
that's something that we've always been so curious about and really wanted to, um, you know,
implement in our lives.
So it's something that, you know. in our experience, we don't really know all that much about in
terms of the role and the relationships and everything, so I think you probably know a whole lot

more than we do.
Craig: Yeah, I mean, a lot of it really has to do with relationships. That's one thing that I really
learned. Uh, it's interesting. My whole relationship to television has primarily before Empire. It
was all about pilots. I directed a pilot for a show that ran a season called Terriers, um, on effects.
And then I had, um, You know, directed about two pilots, uh, one for John Wells and, and, uh,
another for Paramount, uh, with this, uh, urban cowboy, uh, uh, pilot that we did, but then it was
really, I mean, I think, I can't remember if it was like the 10 year anniversary of Hustle and Flow
or something like that, but, um, but, Taraji.
Why don't you come and direct an episode? And, And my, my big brother and mentor, the late
John Singleton had, had, uh, directed for, uh, the show and said, man, you got to do it. It's fun.
Uh, so they had me come in and, and, and then I kind of got, uh, I got a, I got a little addicted to,
uh, directing for television and, and, um, Eileen Chaykin, uh, who was the showrunner at the
time.
Uh, I would probably annoyingly, so I would kind of pitch these fan. Uh, you know, episodes
where I would just go like, man, this is what I wish I could see, you know, and, uh, and then she
took me out to dinner one day and said, you know, we, uh, I'll never forget this conversation.
She said, we have a little bit of a two tower situation.
Where, uh, Eileen was in charge of the writer's room and Sina Hamry was, uh, in charge of, of,
of making the episodes. And, uh, there was sometimes a need to bridge the worlds, uh, which
had, I wouldn't say that they were divided, but, uh, you know, there, there was, there, there was
some need for, somebody who was really in the room to kind of like be directing some of the
episodes, uh, in, in a substantial way and, and also helping other, uh, you know, new directors
that were kind of coming in, uh, and new writers that were coming to set.
And so, uh, I, I started, uh, as a, as a co EP on the show, um, uh, and. That was really pro, I
would say that, you know, I directed, I guess, about four features up until then and about three
pilots, but I feel like that show working in episodic and having to go through all the levels of of
how an episode gets to air was probably, uh, that's when I really learned directing.
It may be where I really learned
Stacy: quite a statement.
Craig: Well, it really, I, and I really believe that. I mean, like it's something that I tried to explain it
to somebody the other day that, um, in, in movies, when you're, when you're filming features,
there's a, there's a little part of you that wants to feel that, that it's, it's a war that is yours to lose
in the moment.
So I'll give you an example like that. I need 300 extras for this and they're like, well, of course
you need 300 extras and we're going to get them for you. And then like you get closer to the day
and they're like, actually, Craig, it looks like it may be about 150 and you're like, no, damn it. It
has to be 300.
And then, and then people kind of come to you with this like defeatedness. Like, I'm so sorry,
Craig, we can only get you 150, uh, uh, uh, extras and you're like, ah, this is just awful. And then
you, you go off and shoot it in, in television, they come up to you and they're like, you have 30
extras.
Drew: That's so
Craig: and if you got a problem with that, uh,

Stacy: Mm. When
Craig: we're going to call up Mario Van Peebles right now and he's, he's going to figure it out,
you know, and, so, and, and there's something really, uh, liberating and educational about that
kind of attitude on set, because now I'm sitting there going like, Okay, well, what if we just kind
of shoot this down the hallway with a long lens and just use our extras in the hallway and then
that'll kind of like dictate the moves.
And I really be, I did Dolomite is my name right after that with Eddie Murphy and I remember
being driven to set and somebody saying like, are you scared? Are you nervous? And I was like,
man, I feel cut out of wood after three years on empire. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm good. You
know, I'm really, and, and. So, yeah, you, you definitely learn, you definitely learn a lot and, uh,
and especially over the arc of, of seasons and, and all the, the, you know, challenges and
sometimes the issues that you have to fix on the day and fix in the room and, uh, fix with the
studio and the network.
John: like one of the problems we, we've had, you know, historically is, you know, because we
write and direct too, is, and then we have a, you know, a guest director on a show and.
sometimes they're amazing and they do everything, you know, you thought they were gonna,
and they plan to, and sometimes they just like take that, you know, the car right off the road.
Um, how, how do you respond? Like, what do you do when somebody goes off roading, um,
Drew: Which you, you know, typically realize,
Craig: there,
Drew: typically realize that day one, you know,
Craig: yeah, there, there were a few.
Drew: ahead of you. Yeah.
Craig: I remember a few instances on that. I remember one instance. I, of course, I'm never
going to name names, but I remember a young director who they paired me with because, you
know, he was young, he was relatively new and, and he was, you know, kind of well known on
the, on the show.
And so it was, it was kind of like one of these things where maybe nobody wanted to tell him no.
And so they, they paired me, uh, with him. And, um, I remember there being an issue, uh, with,
with something I believe having to do with either the set or the, or the, or the photography or
something like that. And he came to me and, and started complaining and, and, and, and
wanted something to be done about it immediately.
And I said, okay, well, this is happening. This is happening. So what are you going to do? And
he goes, what do you mean? What am I gonna go do? Go fix this. And I go, no, no, no, no, no.
What are you going to do about this? If you, if you've got a problem with one of your, uh,
department heads, then you have to fix it.
Uh, this is you. I need to put you in a mindset that you're, you are the, you are the temporary
person in this, in this situation, and you need to make it better. And, uh, it, it sometimes that kind
of honesty, uh, In our business is, is not, it's funny how it's always rewarded when it happens
and yet it's treated with such caution.
So many times I, there really are two, uh, you know, modes of, of reasoning in entertainment.
One is you see a problem, you see a train about to hit the station wall and you think, uh, maybe
we should do something to stop that. And then there's another one. It's like, or Maybe we just let

it hit and then we see if there's some way out of it, you know, that, that we do with that.
I've always been like, maybe we should address that, but, but then, but then what that involves
is sometimes getting involved with tempers and egos and, and, and, uh, I've, I've always found
that it's better just to kind of go in and, and, and deal directly with the problem that you're having
with, with the director or with somebody.
But yeah, there were, there were, there were a few times that I know. on the show where, and I
got to be honest, like that's really where a strong, uh, producer director, uh, is, is, is really
effective and, and, and watching Senna, uh, do it, uh, she, she really like that. That's where I
learned how television production worked.
It's something that I remember just like as a, as a director thinking, well for the first time in my
life, I'm now working for somebody else's vision. And that was probably the most liberating thing
that had happened to me in my career. Was that I wanted to and it's so funny because I came
into television that way I was such a fan of the shield and I had done the second to last episode
of the shield first time ever directing and I remember thinking like I want I know what the shield
looks like.
I'd come over to a camera and I'd be like, uh, this is a little bit too, you know, the, the horizon's a
little too even. Can you Dutch that a little bit or something like that? Because that's the show.
And so when you look at what like Lee Daniels and Danny Strong had created, um, I would, I
would, I would work for like, I'd, I'd get something going.
I'd be like, that's empire. It wasn't really me, it was like, that was Empire. And I felt like you're
really bringing the crafts that you've learned to the table to execute somebody's vision. And, uh,
and I know that as a, you know, The producing director. I mean, like that's something that they
have to maintain throughout, you know, throughout the entire series, but, uh, for me, it was fun
because I was a fan and I, I loved directing the show, even on its hardest of days.
I loved it. Relish it. You
John: That's awesome.
Drew: That is awesome.
John: when there's a guest director I don't know, how often would you give notes? How often
would you get involved? You know what I mean? With, uh, with a guest director or, or would you
like, how, how would you approach, uh, Let's say if you saw something that didn't look like the
show, um, How would you go about managing that?
Craig: The, I know that the sounds like completely obvious to you all since you're, you're in it,
but I have been really surprised. At just how much television is about post. I mean, there is a
reason why most writer's rooms, um, Have editorial down the hall. Um, it's, it's, um, It's
something where, I've seen it a few times where, Uh, a director, uh, for whatever reason, Uh,
just did not nail the episode.
And, uh, that's when, you know, uh, the showrunner and the, the producer director really had to
come in and, and maybe you find that you have to maybe pick up a shot or do a reshoot or do
something to really clarify, uh, something on that episode. But, It was so interesting to see like
what directors would work and and what wouldn't because there would really be no rhyme or
reason to it.
Like sometimes the director would come in and people would think like, well, is the cast going to
eat this woman alive? And and and then she turns into an absolute go to favorite and especially
on Empire because of the cast. I mean, and I mean this totally respectfully, but like Terrence and

Taraji were demanding him.
Yeah. In order for them to just nail it. And I, and I've seen so many instances on that show. I
remember once where Terrence had to like cry over at a funeral and deliver this monologue that
was like right out of something out of The Godfather. And to just be in marvel of him and then,
and then have the DP say like, you know, we're a little soft and I was like, we have to shoot that
again and to go over to Terrence and say, Terrence, we have to do that again.
And he'd be like, I'm, I'm, I'm there and deliver the exact same. Intensity and performance. Taraji
was magical where she would know what lens was on her and she could bring it and you really
had it in one take. And nine times out of 10, I would just do one take with Taraji. But because of
that, you needed directors that really knew what they were doing.
I remember one director, uh, was, um, giving Taraji notes. Uh, and And really talking about her
character or something like that. And, uh, and, and Taraji was like, you know, uh, when that
camera comes off the dolly and you come into a close up shot. Um, then I'm going to give it to
you. But right now I know that you're in this wide shot and you're only going to use like it, you're
going to use it for like a second at the top of it or something like that.
And so, uh, that you'd have this kind of precision with the actors, that it's their show and the
directors are going to come in and anytime they come in to try to, you know, remake the wheel,
it never works.
Drew: Yeah.
John: That's great.
Drew: That's great. We've had that same experience too, where, you know, this actors with
experience like Taraji and, you know, we've worked with Michael Shannon. He knows exactly,
Craig: Right.
Drew: edit the scene in his head while you're shooting it. And he knows exactly, you know, what
you're going to use. And that's really, you know, uh, and to your point, I mean, our, the biggest
revelation, I think for us in TV versus features, cause we also came from features was, uh, it
really is the actor show.
I mean, they're the ones that are there. Day in, day out, season after season, like, you know,
most people are kind of passing through, but it's really their show and they need to be, you
know, respected in that way. And it's really, uh, an interesting, interesting shift for us as well.
Craig: I remember, uh, Sean Ryan sitting me down and saying like, uh, okay. Um, we really
need, uh, Michael Chicklis in the shield to stop wearing his sunglasses. Uh, he really loves
wearing his sunglasses and we get a lot of these notes from the studio. Um, saying like, can we
please see our lead actors eyes? And, uh, he goes, so just, he's going to always want to put
them on and we just want you to not have him do that.
And it was the first shot. Yeah. This is the first shot of the episode. I'm standing right next to
Sean. And Michael Chiklis comes up and he goes, Craig, I'm going to use the sunglasses in this
scene. Uh, is that good? I go, good choice, man. Absolutely. And, and, and I just remember
Sean looking over at me, going, did you hear what I said?
And I go, it's the first shot of the day. Of this episode, and I'm going to give him this win, and
then I'm going to tell him no every other time, but like, no, it's not going to be the, no is not going
to be the first thing out of my mouth with the lead, who's already directed two episodes, so.

John: ha ha ha ha That's
Drew: Oh,
Stacy: I love that so much. That actually leads to one of, one of the questions on the thing is
who do you work for? Like as a directing producer, I guess in that circumstance you were just
directing,
Craig: Right, right. I
mean, don't you think that like, I, I, when, whenever I'm, when I, when I'm directing an episode. I
was, I was very much at first thinking like, okay, it's all about like what I'm, what I'm doing, like
my episode, this is my little movie and I'm going to make a little movie. It was different once I,
once I started working as a, uh, as a writer and, and as a producer in the room, like crafting out
the whole season, because sometimes I remember this one episode.
Where, like, the whole thing took place in a cabin. It was with Demi Moore and she, like, literally,
like, kidnapped, um, Terrence Howard and, and, uh, she was this crazy nurse. And then, and,
and, and so we kind of pitched it as, like, well, are we going to do kind of, like, our thriller? Like,
our, our, our Screen Gems type of, uh, uh, uh, movie episode, bottle episode. Well, it was very
much misery. As a matter of fact, they made a joke that it was like my movie Black Snake Bone
because he literally was chained to like a piano,
Stacy: Oh,
Craig: so and and and it was this female male like sexual tension going on in the in this cabin in
the woods. And, um, and so, uh, we did the whole episode and it was like right at the last
minute.
The showrunner, uh, came up to me and said, uh, look, they, they love this episode, but they,
they, they need like a little cliffhanger, you know, at the end of every episode. And you kind of,
you know, not me, but we all kind of bottled that bottle episode up at the end. Um, can you think
of anything right off the top of the dome?
And, and it was, and, and that was, that was really what like. Television directing and writing was
for me now being part of the room. It's like, okay, well, what can I do right now? And, and, and,
and this is what I'm talking about how I learned about really about directing. I'd be like, okay,
well, what sets are available to us right now?
Well, we still got that hospital set. How about we do this? Why don't we have Trey Breyer's
character? Uh, he's in a coma, right? Is he still in a coma? Did anything change in the last
episode? It's like, okay, so he's still in a coma, but how about he, uh, he starts waking up and
we'll use footage from season two of him being baptized.
And, and, well, that's his dream. He'll be under there, under the water, and then when, I think in
that episode, like, he comes up out of the water when he's baptized. And, and when that
happens, we'll have him. Wake up out of the coma and, uh, and that's when he'll say this line
that the studio needs. To me, I did so much work on that cabin episode.
But that's, that's the win for me. That's when it's like, all right, I got to like figure out because so
and so on episode nine is going to be dealing with this and I do need to help them with that. And
so it got out of just the, the myopic view of directing your episode and got more into like, okay,
well, I'm, I'm contributing now to more of a seasonal arc.
And, uh, and, and that's a different muscle I found.

John: Oh, that's, I love that.
Drew: I love that. Those are, uh, I agree. Like those are the wins when you have that kind of,
you know, crisis moment of like, we have to figure this thing out. You know, something's gone
wrong. Something's gone haywire. We need to figure it out. And the clock is ticking. And, uh, uh,
I find those to be the most fun, you know, days on set when you solve those kinds of things.
Craig: And they're so inconsequential when people see it, they don't know that that's a big win
at all. But you know that you just pulled a rabbit out of the hat, you know, and, and
Drew: I watch, when our shows come out, I watch it with my wife and I drive her nuts because
I'm constantly like, oh, you would never believe what ha You know, I'm always telling those
stories in real time when she's trying to watch it.
She's
Craig: now that you can probably see the matrix. And my big thing that, that now I'm forever
ruined on is Boy, can I see an ADR line added, uh, uh, for, for story. Like I, suddenly if I hear
some really clear exposition or dialogue on the back of the head,
Stacy: Back of the head, I was
Drew: of the head. Always
Craig: I, I know what that is. I know what it
John: cup. Stirring a milk in a coffee cup. You know, like,
Craig: and you know, I've even found that it's that I'm grateful for it now. It's kind of like when I
see people, I go over to their, their house and they watch like TV with the subtitles on. And I was
like, how can you do this? And they're like, well, it's just, it makes it very clear. I have to be
honest. Now I hear those ADRs and I know exactly what they are, but I'm like, uh, well, I didn't
need to know that.
I guess it's a little clearer. And now we're going to move on to the
Drew: It's comforting when I noticed those two again to my wife. She's like, I always point that
kind of stuff out. And she's like, never would have noticed that, you know, like, I think we're
people that make it could notice that, but I don't think most people do. And it's comforting to me
that it gets by every time it seems.
John: I mean, we did a movie with M. Night Shyamalan a number of years back called Devil.
And we changed, there was based on a test screening, a test screening, it tested terribly.
Nobody liked it. Except one person who totally misunderstood the movie, loved it. And we're like.
Let's do that,
Craig: Let's... Ha ha!
John: we, we ended up, we're like, it's like the whole movie is like back of the heads and like we
created this whole backstory
Drew: Oh
Craig: Let's go with the Barry Williams from Pasadena version.
John: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it was, it was, I'll never forget their comment was, like, you know,
how would you describe the story? And the comment was, The one guy killed the other guy's

fam bam
Drew: yeah, he's mad because the other guy killed his fam bam, and we're like, Brilliant
Craig: That's interesting.
John: The one guy killed the other guy's fam bam We need to connect these stories and and it
was like a whole bunch of And for us, that was a big, a big moment of, and then people liked it,
you know, once we connected those. Uh, but but it was, yeah, a whole lot of back
Craig: Already my mind is spinning that that is a movie ready to waiting to happen where like
such like a mind like M. Night is there now going like, wait a minute. Are you telling me that this
guy has completely now rethought? My entire episode from some idiotic thing that he didn't
catch. And we're now moving the whole movie in this direction.
And then he's got to meet him at some diner somewhere. And then that's the, you know, and
then, and then it just starts spiraling into like this guy's life.
John: so funny, yeah. But yeah, we.
Stacy: that made it a twist ending, right? It gave you that, you know,
John: Gave us the twist,
Drew: it just tied everything together, tied the whole room together.
John: yeah, there's, you know, there's times too, like on set when somebody is just struggling
with their lines, it's, you know, whispering to the director, like, make sure you cover the back of
their head, make sure you get some good
Drew: Stay on Mike Shannon. Just stay on Mike Shannon for the whole scene. Yeah. Yeah.
Craig: It's true. It's true. You learn those little tricks. I mean, you definitely do.
Drew: you know, as a direct, like a directing producer, how much in the, you know, when a
directing producer is, you know, doing all the episodes and kind of fully on staff, how much
contact does a showrunner have with the episodic directors in that case?
In your experience, is it, is the showrunner like just in the room and can, you know, not as much
on set? Is it, uh, you know, or is it just kind of a go between?
Here's what I learned watching the whole dynamic on empire was, um, And I, I've been in the
room. Uh, let me go first is just like when I was like strictly a, an episodic director before I was
kind of like involved in the room is you didn't have much, uh, interaction with the show runner
except for the, the tone meeting, uh, where they went, you know, scene by scene and talked
about what was needed.
Craig: The problem that directors have in those situations is that, um, yeah. Nine times out of
10, there's going to have to be some changes because of production reasonings. It's like, we
don't have enough time. We don't have the money to get that casino that you wanted. We're
going to need to do something else to make our day.
Uh, the script needs to be, it was always an issue on Empire with cutting down story because,
um, there was these music numbers and they ate up a lot of screen time. So, I mean, really,
even though we're delivering an adequate You know, uh, page count if we were honest, I mean,
it's probably like we really needed to turn in like 30 page episodes for a, for an hour long

because of these music numbers that would, that would need to be, uh, to be put in.
But, um, so you, you, you're immediately in this kind of like strange situation where you've got to
be the outside person providing a solution for kind of like, uh, I wouldn't call them, uh, Divorced
parents, but kind of like parents that both have their. Their, uh, angle on this, the writers want to
keep what they think is important, uh, and they're getting tired of cutting material because the,
the line producers can't afford it.
And then the people that are on the ground are like, we just can't make that day and do an
episode right coming into episode nine now after episode eight. And so, uh, the director is kind
of put in this awkward position of saying like, well. And you've already talked to production about
this and you've already talked to the to to the producing director about your idea And they all say
like pitch that pitch that to Eileen or whoever is the showrunner so we can Even if she balks at
that idea We can then come around and maybe see if that's something that can work and
because you're the outsider Uh, they're not going to chew your head off completely.
And so I found that that was, that was an interesting dynamic that, that would happen between
the, the, the showrunner, uh, in the, in the writer's room and the director. But other than that, you
know, you, you really are, um, uh, dealing with, uh, the issues that the actors are having with the
script at that moment.
And that's when you start getting on the phone with the showrunner and saying like
Drew: it. Yeah.
Craig: Terrence or Taraji doesn't want to. Have her character do this with Terrence right now.
And then, you know, you start getting involved in those conversations as to, well, you've talked
to the actors, what do they want to do?
And I was surprised how much, at least on my set, that that was something that I got involved
with, um, even more so than the episodic writer, because sometimes there'd be You know,
issues with the actors and the and the writers and it had nothing to do with the individual writer
It's just what they represented.
It's like well this season We're doing something that I was maybe not crazy about or whatever
and and there'd be this kind of friction and it took some time The the director and definitely like
in our case in a hammery to say like, okay Well, what what can be done and and I think that's
one of the reasons I'd done that like twice And that's one of the reasons that Eileen and, and
Fox wanted me in the room.
So I would not only like write episodes and write other episodes, but then I would, I'd
immediately go off and, and direct those. And, and, uh, and, and then sometimes I would, I
would stay. And then the new writer that would come in and perhaps a new director that would
come in would, I, I would, I would kind of like, um, supervise that.
John: that's wonderful. That'd be so helpful having someone. Yeah in both spaces places like
that
Stacy: where were you most? Were you just traveling a lot, bouncing around? Were you
literally like, I spent the morning here and the afternoon there? Like, where was your body?
Craig: I was, I was in Los Angeles in the room. Um, and then we would, uh, when we would get
the outline up to a certain point, I would, um, probably even tell, uh, there was only a couple of
times that I, I kind of flexed my, Hey, I'm a feature director type of guy where I would work really
hard in the room, but then I, I would say like, well, I'm going to go write this episode and, um,

Memphis, Tennessee, and see my kids.
And so, I would fly to Memphis, I would write the episode, I would do the notes, I would be on
the calls, Um, usually my episodes, uh, went okay. Like, there wasn't like, okay, this isn't
working, and let's rethink it. It would be like, alright, well let's fine tune these story points, or so
forth, and then I would fly immediately to Chicago.
And, um, and start prepping it. And, uh, and, and, um, And, and Senna and I got into a very
interesting pattern where, you know, she would always do the, the, um, the, uh, opening episode
of the season and I would do the, um, the, uh, mid season finale. Uh, and then she would do
the, the, the premiere of the mid season and then I would, I'd...
Do the second to last and then sometimes the last in the later seasons. I was I was doing some
of the more of the episodes that Senate would do as well. So, uh, a lot of time in Chicago, a lot
of time in Los Angeles and a week or two at home in Memphis, Tennessee.
Stacy: And, uh, tagging on to that, is it, was this just for your episode, so you sort of be in the
room for your episode and go write your episode in Tennessee and then go shoot your episode?
Or, what about when it wasn't your episode? Then where were you? Or did you have so many
episodes that that just sort of kept you
Craig: I had, I had a lot. I had a lot and I had a lot that I, you know, I learned very quickly, uh, my
first year in the room. How much you, you know, it's obviously like a huge group effort, but then
you find that there's maybe about like two or three, uh, closers that in a pinch. Uh, they could,
they could, uh, come up with some pages.
So I, I would sometimes do some, some, uh, polishes on other scripts, uh, remotely. Um, or, or,
uh, there'd be an issue like in the room and we're trying to crack something. And I'd be like, well,
what about this? And they'd be like, can you write that right now? And, uh, and I'd literally be in.
Rehearsals or, or, or, or waiting for a, a, a shot to be lined up.
And I'd be sitting there writing that scene and sending it off. But, uh, you know, uhm, most of my
episodes that I wrote or co-wrote, uh, I was directing and I think there was maybe about three
that I, I did not, did not direct, but I just kind of like a, a assisted in, in writing.
Drew: doing it all on that show. It's amazing.
Craig: It was a very interesting, and, and I have to say, like, I don't, I, it, it was, it was very
unique, uh, because. I, I don't know if I'd seen anything quite like it, uh, meaning I, I don't know if
it happened on other shows, but, um, everybody around me seemed to think that it was an
interesting position to be in, that, uh, that it was unique.
Drew: Hahahahaha.
Craig: there was the second episode that me and Terrence were working on something and he
was, he was on a tear about something and I started just kind of like tearing back and, and we
were at each other and, uh, and I was like, All right, fine.
We'll do, you know, do whatever the hell, however the hell you want, man, you know, it's like, I'm
just going to be over here watching your, your brilliance and everything like that. And so I sit
down at the, at the monitor and I see Terrence get in front of the camera and he's like huffing
and getting ready.
And then I see like, he's looking around like this and he goes, Oh y'all, uh, it's okay. Me and
Craig, we're brothers and we, this is how, this is how we do. And, um, yeah. And it's okay, you
know, he really had to let everybody know it's like, we've never had a director, you know, call

you a son of a bitch, Terrence, you know, it's like, no, no, no, we love each other.
This is how you know, this is how I got an Oscar nomination was this back and forth right here.
So, um, but, uh, but there was also like a tremendous amount of respect and, and love. So, uh,
sometimes Terrence would have an issue and, and the writers would roll their eyes and I'd be
like, yeah. Guys, are we kind of, um, emasculating Lucius a little bit too much?
I watched the show and I know that women love this show, but you know, that doesn't mean that
a guy shouldn't be able to do like something that, that would make women mad. You know what
I mean? And, and, and, and I go in that part of what the show is and isn't he making a point and,
and is there a way that we can, I, I, the, the best.
The best moment with a writer on set that I remember having this moment with is that, is that
Terrence was not happy with, with some direction that the, that the character was going with in
this, in this episode and therefore put all his ire on, on the writer, um, who was, uh, on that
episode and a line came in or a, or a plot device came in from the room that we needed to Just
have Terrence say in this.
And the writer was just like, there is no way I'm going to, I'm going to be able to walk up to
Terrence and say, say this dopy ass line. he's going to chew my head off.
John: ha
Craig: And, uh, and, and this writer had kids and I said, um, best parenting advice I ever got, uh,
was don't ask your kids what they want for dinner.
Stacy: ha ha ha ha... ha ha...
Craig: You have to say, Alright, it's dinner time. Do we want pizza? we want grilled cheeses? Or
do we want Taco Bell from around the street? You give them three for them to go, Oh, uh, pizza.
Right. And then you go pizza. It is right. So I said, here's what we're going to do. You're going to
take this line and I want you to come up with four lines that basically say the same line and I'm
going to go take it to Terrence.
Right. So she came up with four lines and I go like, Hey man, I can't pick the, you know, I can't
figure out what's the best way any of these look good to you. And, and, and. And he picked one
that felt good, you know, and, and went back and was like, that, that's, that's how you work with
actors that aren't just a stand on your mark type of actor, that people that have minds, you know,
people that have real opinions on things and, um, and sometimes it's that, uh, I won't say it's
easy, but it may be that simple.
Stacy: Yeah, you get buyin
John: I love
Drew: really brilliant. Yeah. It's amazing how much, you know, family dynamics play into, you
know, strategy on set. You mentioned, you know, divorce earlier, kind of being in a divorce
situation. And, you know, John and I are children of divorce, and we've always thought that that
is maybe the most important life experience we've ever had for what, you know, for our
professional career as being, you know, learning as children, how to negotiate, you know,
divorce parents,
Craig: Between, between two very emotional people that, that, that, that love you and dammit
wants you to love them.
Drew: Yeah, I mean, every project is some extension of that, you know, and, uh, um, yeah, it
really

John: yeah, sometimes you got to pretend that mom doesn't exist when you're at dad's house
and vice versa, you know.
Craig: Right.
John: thinking of this now. Mom,
Craig: Right. No, mom, you're right. He's a mess. a mess.
Stacy: that's how, didn't you guys, the boys ended up eating, you know how you can make, like,
chicken with, like, cream soup, you know, just like that kind of creamy, saucy chicken, and you
put it on white rice? Apparently the boys ate creamy, saucy chicken on top of white rice Every
dinner for like years because they wouldn't be like, Hey, guess what we had yesterday.
Drew: I
John: yeah,
Craig: I'm guilty.
John: yeah.
Craig: I've now, I've now realized that like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm divorced as well. My, and my
daughter will come over to stay with me and uh, And I'll realize like, I noticed that you're not
eating the Millennium Falcon Waffle that I made for you as much as you used to. And, and I'm
just now realizing that you were 8 when I started making that for you and now you're 15.
And she's like, I haven't wanted to tell you that, I'm a little over the Millennium Falcon Waffle.
But, because I loved it so much as a child when I came over here, that's like the dish that you
keep making. And I was like, alright, alright, noted. What does mom make? Well, she makes a
smoothie. It's like, all right.
Well, I guess I gotta like learn some new
Drew: to make a smoothie,
Stacy: I did notice your examples had a certain theme of like grilled cheese or pizza.
Craig: a lot of dairy
John: Taco Bell Eh
Stacy: Bell. I was like, damn.
Craig: Lot of easy a lot of easy stuff
John: Uh
Craig: Dad doesn't have a lot of time
Drew: Yeah. Hey.
John: yeah, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us
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Thank you. We appreciate you all being here.
Stacy: All right. See you guys next time.