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Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Without further ado.
Oh, this is gonna get real funky at the end, Nick. It's gonna like all the keys are happening. 1, 2, 3, 4. Welcome at last to our master masterclass in the form of a podcast called The Showrunner Show. Yes, the Showrunner Show. It's the showrunner show.
Drew: Nice work. I
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Thank you so much. Thank you. Perfect.
Drew: to the show on a show everyone where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of show running for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just wants to see how it all gets made, I'm Drew Dowdle.
John: I'm John Eric Dowdle.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: And I am Stacy Shabosky. We are psyched you're here and we are psyched to well up. Welcome. Well, oh my God, that was a disaster. And we're psyched to welcome Philip Noyce.
Phillip: Okay.
John: movies.
I've probably seen 15 of his movies in the theaters.
Drew: the theaters. Yeah,
John: from Dead Calm to Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, Rabbit Proof Fence, The Quiet American, Salt, The Giver, and so many more. His He's directed the TV pilots for a series like what if revenge and the resident, he can do action. He can do political thrillers, drama, suspense.
He can do it
Phillip: Yeah. My Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: somebody else wrote or someone else directed. It's always been. Kind of our own insular things, um, we
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: pilot director? Because that's something they've never done.
Drew: Yeah,
exactly.
Phillip: right. Well, um, I try and the pilot at least four times before we actually make the pilot. And that's the big, uh, big secret of any success that I've had is that, um, You know, I have a team that works with me, Kathleen McLaughlin in New York who works on, uh, finding images, Thompson in Los Angeles who works on finding, uh, sounds, music, um, and so on, and then on the edit.
And we try and do A three to five minute version of the pilot, a trailer, uh,
well in advance of shooting, um, which we share with the showrunner, the network, and the studio, and the actors, so that we can gradually all get into sync.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Wow.
Phillip: So that's, um, um, a long process and, and involves, uh, uh, many, many weeks of collecting, uh, images and sounds and music. and then edit and then slowly compiling it and then trying it out, starting with, uh, the show runner, of course, because they're going to have a lot of notes, um, and then. sharing it with the actors and because they often contribute of we use their voices as they get cast, they start to join in, working with, uh, music supervisor on each, uh, on each pilot, uh, because, um, music is so important in a pilot and, and in, in establishing a series.
so we'll, we'll work with a music supervisor as well. probably for about three weeks, trying different tracks, um, and seeing, uh, which ones work, for Revenge, it was, um, because of me, myself being an Australian, it was, um, Amos and Julia Stone's, uh, song became the song of the pilot and repeated, um, throughout the series, that was for you, I think, yeah.
And then, uh, for the resident, it was, um, Bishop Bridges, uh, Briggs, The Way I Do, uh, which finally became sound of the pilot. And of course, the way the
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Heh.
Phillip: pilot is heard is so important in attracting the audience, but also in holding them. So
that song, that anthem. The pilot anthem becomes really, really important.
and a lot of, a lot of work goes into selecting that. the images, uh, well, we try and make the pilot. We try and, uh, and it'll culminate in a presentation to the network, where they see and then can, can issue directives or pat us on the back or say, don't. Use that color, or we don't like this or that, and um, let me see, what do we have?
Resi the Resident. No, the Revenge. Revenge, uh, Paul Lee was head of, uh, at the time, and I think after we showed him the, uh, the, um, pilot pilot, um, his only comment was, do we own that music? And we said, yes.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh. Mm.
Phillip: and we'd already, because we'd already bought that music from Angus and Julia. and then, you know, like with the Resident, their comments were they hated, they hated, uh, the blue color.
We'd use blue,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Like a filter, or just like a lot of pops of color?
Phillip: uh, we, we had a cold palette.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: yeah. Haha.
Phillip: for, um, the resident, you won't see any cold. No, sir.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mm. Um,
Phillip: That's
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Wow.
Phillip: want to feel when you go to the hospital, you know, you don't want to feel cold.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Ha ha ha. Um,
Phillip: so we, we changed the color scheme, you know, which was, which was simple.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Philip, are you, are you just pulling images for this? Or are you shooting fresh images? Or is it a combination of the two?
Phillip: both.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Cool.
Phillip: And I mean, I can give you some of these if you want them.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah. Oh my god. Um, Wow. Uh, Um, Um, Wow.
Phillip: revenge which feels like it was made in prehistoric times in terms of we were just getting used to the technology and everything, a final, final cut at that time, and then um, the resident, yeah, and you'll see that, um, that, the trailer is the pilot.
It's a, it's a, it's absolutely the pilot because we also work with the cinematographer, the final cinematographer, the production designer, the costume designer. Um, so we start the costumes and the product, production design, and then as the, because usually we start six weeks before, and so we're well advanced by the time.
Uh, these people come on, some of them only come on, you know, sometimes, I mean a cinematographer two weeks before, um, costume designer three weeks before, production designer four weeks before you shoot. So, we've already got a template and then they, they work on top of that.
Um, so it becomes, uh, it becomes, you know, uh, it becomes the pilot of the pilot.
But, but there'll be
four or five of them before we finally unveil it to the, the network. And, and all the network's staff and ancillary and sales people and blah, blah, blah.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Is this like your proprietary cool method that you've come up with? Or is this standard practice?
I have no idea. Or is it somewhere in between?
Phillip: you should know the answer to that. Cause you're the guys who are talking to directors.
John: yeah, we've only seen
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah. What's Hmm.
Phillip: what other, I don't know what, I don't know what other people do, but that's what I do. Um, it doesn't work when, if, um, if decisions taken away from you. For example, on what if by the time I started, there was already a cinematographer, there was already a production designer, there was already a costume designer.
it was very hard. assembling a team when all of those people have already been chosen. Um, that was just because of staffing issues and the way that the show was put together. it also, it does help, uh, you know, one of the, one of the, uh, problems for a pilot director is the relationship with the showrunner, is crucial. Um, and, and so this does help you to bond a little bit, know, beforehand, cause they're able to say what they like and
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah.
Phillip: uh, you know, I mean, if I've had any. issues on pilots. It's been in bad communication between director and, and showrunner.
And one of those issues comes from the need for the showrunner to be close to the director. when they're directing. Of course, what happened, what's um, you know, since we had, um, a video assist is that the, when they're directing, they're not, we used to, when I started, I'd sit under the camera.
It wasn't room for anyone else under the camera beside the lens. But, um, then we started having, um, uh, video assist and pretty soon the video assist became a party,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah. Hmm.
Phillip: And, uh, so so I found that I had to just say, listen, this is my workspace. You know, it's not, this is not, this is not a place for eating, drinking, talking. smoothing, texting or anything. No one else is allowed here, me, me, just me, me and what's going on. that can sometimes be a problem. find it hard to work with someone literally, I can feel the breath on the neck.
You know, it's. So, for example, Amy Holden Jones The Resident, uh, having directed herself, you know, um, many times, um, in her wonderful career. She always put herself out of eyesight, out of earsight, around the corner,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mm
Phillip: And she'd, she'd come over in between and this and, and whisper stuff and say stuff.
You know, which would often make all the difference between a scene working or not working.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: mm
Phillip: there, um, all the time, you know. as I said, um, um, making the pilot several times beforehand helps you to overcome those, those
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: mm
Phillip: problems.
John: That's so
Drew: Yeah, it's,
John: just talk us through the difference between pilot, like directing a pilot or directing episodic, I assume you've only done pilots.
Phillip: for a pilot, you know, you've, you've got to, edit really quickly. on, on revenge, let's see, we finished on Saturday morning in North Carolina and we previewed around America the next Wednesday.
John: Oh, wow.
Phillip: So that was like I mean, I arrived home on Saturday afternoon and it was like 21 hours until preview. I mean, 21 hours a day of editing. Um,
John: Wow.
Phillip: to a pre, to a preview, and by Thursday we knew the series was going to go.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: hmm.
Phillip: finished shooting on the Friday, on the Saturday morning in North Carolina.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Whoa.
Phillip: and that's one of the great things about pilots or, uh, compared to movies, you know, movies, uh, the decision making process can stretch all along. We're going to put it in theaters. We're not just going straight to Hulu, blah, blah, blah.
Or, you know, I mean, pilot, you sign on and six weeks later you're shooting and then six days later you know what's happened.
Drew: Yeah, it's true, it's
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Damn.
Drew: hyper
Phillip: for years. Years and years and years and years. Of course, so can pilots in development for, for the riders,
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm,
Phillip: of course. sorry, what, what was your, what was your question? The difference between, oh, episodic. Okay. So the first difference is you've got more time in episodic to edit, but not a lot of time. the second is just time, you know, you get, uh, 12. or 13 days on the pilot to shoot and then on episodic eight or nine.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: hmm,
Phillip: Uh, you've still got to it in at 4440. Um, so you've just got to work a lot faster.
Drew: yeah,
Phillip: On the other hand, don't have the problem of sorting out who's who and
Drew: yeah,
Phillip: which character, uh, um, is working and which isn't and who does the audience love and all those things.
Which accent, all the questions that have to be worked out on a pilot.
Drew: yeah.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: hmm.
Phillip: so that advantage. Um. I, what I usually do is the pilot and then the first episode. The episode in order to, um, pick up the show again several months later the actors, um, and, and just settle, settle into it. In the case of Revenge, it was also because we changed from North, it was set in the Hamptons, but we changed from shooting in North Carolina.
to shooting on the west coast of, uh, of America, uh,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm,
Phillip: So that was a big change where we had to, um, you know, we had to continue the same, uh, design features and everything, um, but in a completely different situation. so, so reestablishing the look of the pilot, and settling the, the, the actors into their, their roles.
Um, becomes important in the, second episode. Um, I haven't directed beyond a second episode.
John: Mm hmm.
Phillip: Uh, oh, you know, that's not right. I did for, um, What was it called? The horse racing show.
Drew: luck?
Phillip: Luck, yeah,
Luck episode four. Michael Mann, yes, of course I did.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: hmm.
Phillip: I did Luck episode four. Um,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: so, So there, and with a new, a new, um, cinematographer.
but, but that was okay because Michael is such an iconoclast. he demanded originality from every director. So it wasn't like you had to fall into a conveyor belt.
Um,
you know, the opposite.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Wow.
Phillip: and break the mold every time.
Drew: yeah, interesting.
John: so
Phillip: So,
John: That's,
Phillip: so that, that was a, that was a particular with a particular, well, not showrunner because David Milcher was a showrunner, but a particular leader, you
know, in Michael Mann.
Drew: Yeah.
John: but one thing to maybe, you know, just mention too, is like one of the differences with the pilot, the pilot sets the whole tone, the look, the feel of the whole show, and then every other director after that is expected to sort of, typically to follow and to try and emulate that tone and style and can continue on the, look and feel that's established in the pilot.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: but it sounds like maybe this was the opposite or was it kind of a little of
both? Like,
yeah, same look and feel, same color palette, but on luck.
Phillip: on luck. Yeah. It was the opposite in a way. I mean, obviously, um, um, the main visuals came from, uh, the camera operator, Roberto DeAngelis.
Drew: Uh huh.
Phillip: Who is an Italian steadicam and, and a camera operator, uh, that Michael takes from, if you look, you'll
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: to show to show with the same, uh, uh, Italian camera operator. And, and quite apart from, from the, from the cinematographer, the lighting cinematographer, uh, um, Roberto is the common denominator in so much of Michael's work.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm.
Phillip: Milch Michael are both iconoclast,
you know,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: um, and so they encourage others to be iconic in their choices.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah.
Drew: That's
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: I love that. I would think it would be the opposite. That it would, I would think the being an iconoclast might lead to a big ego. I don't know anything about them personally. I'm just, you know, that it might lead to a big ego. That might be like, do me, do me, make it like me. So it's, it's
very cool to hear that it was the opposite.
Phillip: Yeah, the opposite. Yeah. 'cause, 'cause
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh,
Drew: when you
Phillip: like, like them. would involve doing the unexpected
Drew: yeah,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: oh
yeah.
Drew: and I guess they
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Ah,
Drew: hire someone like yourself to do episode four if that wasn't the expectation that you're going
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: right, Mmm. Whoa.
Phillip: of course in that episode, um, uh, a lot of the time I would just let, so it was almost like Michael was doing the directing. I would let Roberto lead, Roberto the operator.
You know, and he would often turn around in the middle of a scene, what I thought was the end of a scene, but would turn out to be the middle because he'd stand up and say, well, what about we have to turn around on the, oh my God, I'm sorry.
Yes, of course. Of course we will. So,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Dude.
Phillip: and I've used Roberto on pilots, on pilots as well.
John: I
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: so artistic. But like, human hippos. So strong. So physically strong. You know?
Phillip: Well, you know, over the years when I started, I thought that my job was to control everything. And then I was doing a film, not a TV show, in South Africa, uh, called, um, Catch a Fire.
there I had a Steadicam operator, an Englishman, and he taught me that the, the way, the way to, to, to greatness is to not control everything, but the opposite, is to, Unleash the creativity of everyone that you're working with the combination of creativity is much greater than anything that you could ever humanly come up with.
so, so since that time in 2005, tended not to tell the operator what to do, but to rather let him tell me what to do. Um,
Drew: Yeah, I love that too. We
Phillip: and that's also John Huston's, idea about choreography. He always felt that the, the choreography of a scene, and I knew him and went to his sets, um, should be, Hand it over to the actors, because they're going to know where to stand and where to go and when to stand up and go to the window and all of this.
Don't tell them, let them tell you.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mmm.
Drew: love
try to approach directing too without being you know, too uh, rigid and shotless and things like that because of exactly what
Phillip: Oh, well, shot list. shot list. No, no, no, no. You've got to have a shot list.
I
Drew: But,
Phillip: a very good reason
Drew: yeah.
Phillip: um, in every day of directing pilots, series, movies, shorts, whatever, you've got to have an a, a B, a C, and a D plan.
And the other way, because you, because, and you've got to be able to change and order.
As the day progresses, 'cause you've gotta finish on time. You've gotta shoot everything that's in the script for that day. But often you'll get behind or you spend too long on this or something goes wrong. So you've gotta go to plan B and and if B doesn't work, C, and then finally
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mmm.
Phillip: and
you must. So therefore, you've gotta go into each day.
a pilot of anything with a really big, uh, uh, codified shot list, you know, which only allows you then to say, Oh, I could combine three with
four, you know, five or six and so on.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh.
Drew: that's, exactly what I mean, it's not being rigid to stick with the shot list because I feel like, you know, we like to give the actors the freedom, like when we start blocking the scene that they want to go to the window, like you said, or, you know, and we have an eight, we have an eight camera, steady cam, uh, operator that we love and without fail, uh, when blocking the scene, he ends up thinking of something better than I thought of.
And, you know, you, you change. Oh, what is this?
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh,
Clear
Drew: and present
danger. Cool.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh, show and
tell, show and tell, let's see it.
Phillip: Very important.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh, yeah.
Drew: got your boards. Yeah.
Phillip: And oa pilot super important
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Flip through.
Phillip: super important on a pilot.
John: Beautiful.
Phillip: It's not clear, and Present Danger I think this one is way back to Patriot games.
it's Patriot
Games
John: Oh, it's
Phillip: Patriot games. this is back in the early nineties.
all
John: Oh,
Oh
Phillip: All mapped out for everyone to see
beginning to the end of the movie.
So that, um, yeah, the
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Um,
Phillip: movie.
It's like a book, you know,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: I'm starting to get the feeling that the secret of your success, I'm sure you have many secrets, many successes, but it seems like so much of what you're talking about is about pre production and preparation, you know,
that,
that,
Phillip: absolutely. Yeah, yeah, you must. storyboards, for example, um, I've often given them to writers and who have then written the scenes based on the storyboards in certain cases. Action only, not dialogue.
You that in dialogue. And in fact, in dialogue scenes, I don't use storyboards.
You know,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh,
Phillip: a storyboard to an actor and say, and give any indication of, you know, that might alter their performance. only for, it's only that, for example, that's the story, those are the storyboards of the action scenes. And if you remember the film, there's a lot of action.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah.
John: Oh my
Phillip: yeah.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah.
John: differently than when you're doing a feature? And if so, like, how do you, what are the differences in your mentality
Phillip: it, it's
John: wise?
Phillip: not really. Um, but there is more need for, to share.
John: Mm
Phillip: Um, because, because you have an obligation to a showrunner who's put their life the line. Um, and it could be life changing for them. Um, that's your first obligation, is to that person, the showrunner, and because they're the fountain of information and inspiration, there's that, and, and also because, in theory, in the hierarchy, you are working for them, um, on a, on a movie, the theory of the hierarchy is, Um, everyone works for the director, so there's a, there's a, it's just a different, you've just got to adjust to that.
The showrunner is going to go on for 168 episodes, and you'll be forgotten. You have to
accept that,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm. Hmm.
Hey.
Phillip: doing, um, because you are disposable, and there's another 10, 000 of you up in them, their hills, you know, waiting for the phone to ring.
Okay.
Drew: if you're
Phillip: I'm sorry, what was the question again? Uh,
the difference?
Drew: Yeah, that's so good.
John: in shooting, like, you know, television versus features.
Phillip: Well, um, um. Also, in, in television, um, you will tend not to do one ers. One ers get you into trouble. One shot scenes, you know, they only get you into trouble. You
know that, that, you know that the showrunner or the studio or the network are going to come in there next week and say, well, what about, why can't we cut to her?
You just know it.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mmm.
Phillip: You
go in. You know, yes, you'll do a one off for something simple and, you know, and you might, uh, in your mind say, well, if they want it shorter, we can start it later, dah, dah, dah. And you're forced to do one offs sometimes. Often, you know, you just try and avoid them. Uh, even to the extent of, you know, on the resident, shooting the resident, uh, with John Brawley, who took over from, uh, from the, from the pilot cinematographer.
Broly would a specialist in using a little handheld Blackmagic, the Australian camera, and say I was going to do a one er because that's all I had time for, he would get the little Blackmagic and we're tracking back with two actors, but he's in the side there getting know, little insert shots, knowing
for sure that we're going to need them for time cutting, for emphasis, whatever.
So there is a difference.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh.
Phillip: is so important in television. and you know, even though you don't think that the lady from the left is an important part of the scene. You just don't know what's going to happen later. Um, you know, when it all unravels. coverage, coverage you got to have. You don't have to have it in cinema and you can take the hit for that.
You know, the critics will say it was certainly long.
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: But That's, you know,
Drew: yeah
Phillip: whereas on
John: Yeah,
Phillip: away to the, to the person who turns out to actually be the fulcrum of the scene and you just didn't imagine at the time, or, later when you, when you finally put the product together and then they find out that nobody cares about Tony, Right.
Smith number five. So suddenly he's, he goes to the, back of the
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah. Philip,
Phillip: I'm talking about, how things change and how a series can grow and ebb and flow, but it can only do that if there's coverage.
John: that's so smart or you're right. Cause often the people, you know, you know, you're one or two leads, but then beyond that, sometimes someone shows up. Who's so amazing that you want to
Phillip: Yeah, and
they become permanent and
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: become prominent and permanent.
Drew: yeah,
John: yeah, that's cool.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: when you have a, it sounds like with coverage you need, you know, different setups. Do you, how many, how many shots do you tend to do in each setup? Or does it just change all the time?
Phillip: you mean how many cameras or how many shots with each sequence?
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: help me with the language. You know, like sometimes we've seen directors where they'll do the same setup of cameras and the same scene and they'll do it like eight, nine,
10 times. And then, thank you.
Phillip: takes.
John: up, set
Phillip: Actually, you try and do, okay, How many,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Thank you.
Phillip: how many takes a maximum of three, if you can,
Drew: Yeah, I love
that. I love that. Yeah.
Phillip: one, one, everyone moving to, to do it. And then three to bank it.
Drew: Yeah. I
Phillip: number three is about money in the bank. It's
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah,
Phillip: Is he, is he loud or very loud? Is he angry or very angry? Is she soft? Is she pushing shoving? Is she pulling back? Not sure, but now let's bank some things. So you try and number three is, and then later when you, when you find you haven't got an answer to those questions, you just go to the bank.
And as long as you've got something in the bank, Like life, everything is okay. And our parents approved, right
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Yeah, mm.
Drew: It's kind of more our style too and uh um and not
you know beating every.
Phillip: out, what you realize after it took me about 40 years to realize it, but nevertheless, is you don't need any more than that,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: do need is to change the angle because that'll give you more opportunities and more ability to manipulate your, your, your, your, your show over and over and over taking, uh, you know, a take again and again and again.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: Change the camera angle, uh, rather than, you know, go to take four.
Drew: Yeah.
John: love that. And, and how many, how many setups do you tend to do is set up is, you know, shots.
Phillip: Well, it depends if you have two or three cameras. So on a pilot, I try and have three cameras.
Drew: Yeah, we do
too. Yeah,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Joey?
Phillip: And that's, and that's,
John: way. Yeah.
Phillip: that's what they're, that's what they're, what they're, what is drilled into them. You know, you're going to find the shot that no one would be mad enough to think of.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mm.
Phillip: and because there's no room, they inevitably end up achieving
John: Yeah.
Phillip: But, um, on a two camera set up, which is more normal. Um. You probably do 60 a day, I suppose. 60, uh, 60 setups, meaning 30, you
Drew: 30 setups, two cameras.
Yeah,
Phillip: yeah. In the old days, we used to only do 14 a day, you know, but that was on film when we used to have film.
Of course Uh, on film, so much time was taken adjusting the, the, the light.
Drew: yeah, I
know, it's amazing.
Phillip: If you couldn't get, if you couldn't see the eyes, everyone would go crazy. Well, nowadays, it doesn't matter, because we go in and just do a little thing there, a thing there, and then
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Mm.
Phillip: a button, suddenly the eyes are there. So that, so that now lighting can so much be done in post production, in
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: the digital intermediate, uh, process of colorization. Um, and a good cinematographer today, we used to, you know, trimming the lights could take forever. mean, okay, so they had to set them up and sidelight, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they had to trim them and trim means, you know, if the actor moved here, are the eye lights still hitting? So they'd have to get inky dinkies, little lights that shine just in the eyes and stuff. Well, all that's gone out the window now. What was the question? I'm sorry. What was the question?
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: I don't
remember.
Drew: Oh, we were
just
talking about setup setups,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: question?
Phillip: the number of
setups, yeah, yeah,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Oh yeah,
Phillip: of setups now is, greatly increased because of we, we're working on digital and we do so much of the lighting in post production,
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: and the, and the cinematographer works with the, with the color grader now, intimately, you know, later in the process.
John: that's actually our test. Now for when we meet cinematographers, we're like, we like to not set any marks. Um, and most cinematographers are like, Oh no, you can't do that. And
Phillip: Well.
John: the ones that love it are like, you know, you know,
Phillip: The good ones, the good ones are absolutely in sync with that. Of
Drew: yeah,
Phillip: marks are a thing of the past, you know, because we're not doing, we're not doing, um, uh, old studio lighting, backlight, front light, side light, kick light. We're now using a bounce lighting, you know, off a white, off a whiteboard to, to send general light in the area.
And then we'll. We'll even it out later, you know, because you can always introduce shadows and everything in post production.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: hmm.
Phillip: the best cinematographers, you know, um, um, don't use any light anymore is the truth.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: the sets are, the sets are built or, or chosen with, you know, lights like that, um, in, in, in position.
then lighting is done like that.
Drew: Yeah. It's like practical everywhere. Yeah.
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm,
Phillip: one off, turn that one on, bring that one up, bring that one down.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: and, and the lighting, they used to have guys who were, you know, moving those lights. And now you see, you see a, uh, a gaffer. got a headphone and a microphone. And, and he just says, uh, you know, 7A.
to a, you know, and he's talking about practical lights in the, in the set
Drew: Yeah,
Phillip: have been set there and five minutes, you're ready to shoot. for not three quarters of an hour as we used to wait.
Drew: yeah,
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: Hmm.
Drew: how much faster you can move. It's
true. Um,
Phillip: faster you can
Drew: yeah,
Phillip: a film that costs 45 million. In 1999 would cost 25 now,
Drew: I know it's wild. That's really
incredible.
Phillip: and it's great because as you get older, you get slower, but with technology, you get faster.
Drew: I know we've been spending the last several years of TV where we're doing, you know, 10 page days every day and like, God, I'd love to go back to doing a feature and like, you know, shoot three page days again. I
John: what advice would you give to other directors as well as showrunners on working with A list actors?
Phillip: Well, depends how AA. You mean AAA, or AA, or just A, or, what are you talking about? You're talking
Drew: talking like Harrison Ford, Angelina Jolie, like yeah, the A, the A plus, you
know.
John: Kidman.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah, superstars, movie, stars.
Phillip:
she was an ingenue.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: turning 18, 19 on
set. Um, but, but, uh, you know, uh, to answer your question, which doesn't necessarily apply to any of the television that I've done.
Um, but, uh, you know, your continued employment depends on your relationship with an AAA
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: Um, they talk. around quickly. you're going to find that the, that the, um, studio, does what you want, so long as the studio feels that you and the actor are in sync.
Drew: Yeah.
Phillip: it's as important as other relationship you can have, and usually the most important relationship have is with the a a a
Drew: Yeah, that's seems right. Amazing.
John: you have like highest level career spanning decades, like what. would you say, you know, is the key to that?
You know, the key to
staying in it.
Phillip: the key is, uh, that when I was about to become the worst animal in Hollywood, the Hollywood, um, I saw the light lighting the lighting. I saw the light, um, and left a hundred million dollar movie with a 6 million payday and went to shoot a movie in Australia. Four, six million dollars, uh, that wasn't financed, that would star nobody, that everyone told me would never, ever get made, and if it was, no one was going to watch it.
And that was, Some of All Fears was the movie here, um, The Quiet, not The Quiet American, but Rabbit Proof Fence was the movie there. So I left, when I was inside of being that hack, and reinvented myself. Making a small film, which we then sold all over the world, completely proving everyone wrong. Um, and, and, um, and then I did Quite American straight after that, on the back of that.
Immediately shot six weeks later, edited the two side by side. They were sold to Miramax at the time. Both came out side by side in cinemas, uh, around the world. Um, so So that was a case of two things. One re reinventing myself, betting on myself and being able to sneak away with my dual citizenship, American, Australian, always had an out.
And you know what? If that guy with that funny hair gets back in, you know, where I'm going.
Drew: I'm with you.
John: That's. That's amazing. I, I have to say for anyone who's listening or watching this, who hasn't seen rabbit proof fence, it is, we cite that whenever we work with kids or have directors, you know, we work with, who work with like, we're like, what, like some of the best. performances, uh,
Phillip: wait for it, wait for it, because it's coming out again soon. We've just finished, just last night we finished the 4K remastering. It took us six months. A team in Canberra in Australia, Sydney, Los Angeles and Warsaw. I've been working on it, transferred the negative, um, we just finished it, uh, it's coming out, it's coming out this week on, uh, um, Netflix in Australia, in 4K version, and it will soon come to America and around the world, yeah, the new version, not version, same, same movie, same movie, exactly the same movie, it's just that it's bigger and brighter and better and just beautiful and in ways that wasn't possible then because it was finished on film as opposed to digitally.
Drew: Yeah.
Amazing. I would love to see it again.
John: what advice would you give to directors or, you know, showrunner, like working with children? Um,
Phillip: Working with children, uh, well, um, what I found that that was in that particular case, one, um, when you're auditioning, Don't expect, um, the same levels of reading fluency, because that can be, often be a problem. You're better to test their ability to improvise, to imagine, to test their imagination, rather than their reading of a script.
John: I
Phillip: feet, five inch Australian can be a little scary for a kid. Oh, I don't know. I don't know why, but, uh, so I had a, you know, a, uh, children's drama coach or draft, you know, a woman who worked with them and was with them, you know, 20 hours a day and just working through their issues and everything intimately.
Um, so like another director in a way, um, so, but that was again, it's a particular set of, uh, of, of, of issues for those three little kids. Um, other, what was your question? Working with children. I also found, it depends on the age, of course, depends on the age, what I did in that film was not choose actors, but choose personalities.
So each child had a particular personality and they've still got them. They're exactly the same as they are now in their 30s. As they were then, I mean, I said, the, the eldest girl is rebellious. She's still fucking rebellious. Um, you know, the, the middle girl is a dreamer and the young one just can't stop cracking jokes and, and being amusing.
And that's what they brought in to the movie. And that's who, that's who the character was that they created, which was not about the script. It was about themselves. You know, I cast types and then allowed them and encouraged them to be themselves as much as possible while having to, uh, uh, you know, eventually read a script. Um, the other thing that I did in this, and if you go down to, to younger kids, um, but with those kids, I got them to always, Get used to looking straight down the lens.
Drew: huh.
Phillip: Now, of course, are not, they're total fabrications. You know, we cut from him to me. From him to me. From him to me. So why does everything that I say have to be perfect or everything he says have to be perfect?
It doesn't. It only has to be half perfect, because the other half, you'll be on him. You know.
to, to act straight to the camera. And of course, behind the camera is me. And I'm feeding them their lines.
They're not acting with other kids, they're acting with me. And, and so, you know, I can give them direct instructions or, or try, we're going home, home, to mother. to mother kid would try it. So you cut it all together. And, you know, it's, it is, it is make believe. It's not that it's going to look like they're talking to each other, even though they were talking to you or whatever the circumstances.
Um, with kids. Also, ADR with kids. You know, if you can do complicated themes, but don't stress them. Because they can re record it, just like everyone can. ADR, the Automatic Dialogue Replacement, now is so useful. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to torture a child. They'll do it later. Get the action right.
Move on. You know, get them in later. They can, they can, they can, they can do it. Um, they can re record.
John: and I I find two on set like actors, you know You're never allowed to like give an actor a line reading like you like do it like this Don't did it that it you know, you're never
Phillip: Well, you can
you can with little kids Ha
Drew: with kids Yeah, you can with kids. Yeah. Yeah.
John: like line read all day long in ADR, just not
Phillip: They do. But you know what? Uh, once upon a time they used to hate ADR, but now I think actors are realizing that that can be the whole performance. The nuance the ability to, to stretch words and so on has enhanced that tool and everyone's starting to recognize that. You
know,
John: Yeah. Or that,
Phillip: and also one of the biggest tricks, you know, one of the biggest tricks in ADR, I'll tell you this one, is to completely alter the, the, the, um, um, loudness of your voice.
I mean, and also another trick is get the mic almost in the mouth. So you can, you can actually check Fellini, Fellini taught me this. Okay. So I'd go out to see Fellini at Chinichita. outside running, doing one of his B, not B, no, he'd never made a B movie. He's doing one of his lesser important movies, Orchestra Rehearsal.
Um, and he's got this fat guy with a high pitched voice and, uh, doing, re recording the dialogue, and he's not happy. So he says to his assistant, go out to the canteen and get Giuseppe. Anyway, so while, uh, he's going out, he's scribbling. While they're getting Giuseppe, he's scribbling and everything, and in comes a thin guy with the opposite pitch of voice, completely different, and he hands him a whole new script! And, and, completely changed it. Anyway, I said to him, I said, that's remarkable. He says, listen, Everyone thinks that the image is most important, but it's not. It's the sound. I said, what are you talking about? He said the sound goes from the ear to the central nervous system, but the image goes from the eye to the brain. The brain has to tell you what the image meant. The sound hits straight away, you know.
That's why music is so, so important, you know, because it's the final script. It can rewrite the script. You can, you know, you can toot flies on a wall and turn it into the most exciting movie with the right piece of music. Um, music rewrites. movie, the whole show.
Drew: I love that. I'd be going back to your kind of pilot of the pilot. I think that's such a fascinating idea and just how much time and attention you put into the music choice of that, of that reel is, is really a cool method. And I think you're right. I mean, it's that, that is the vibe. It's the, it's the images and the color palette and all those things too, but it's, uh, it is, the music is the vibe.
And I think that's such an interesting
Phillip: Well, in a pilot in particular. Or a modern, a modern pilot.
Drew: yeah, that's, that's a really cool method, a really cool tactic. I like it a lot.
John: in summary, like one actionable tip of the week that I love is bet on yourself, you know, bet on yourself. Don't take the, don't go for the big payday necessarily. know, go for what feels right to you. What, you know, that, that authentic
Phillip: I don't
Phillip Noyce 1 - #1 - Stacy: If you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell a friend. That all really helps us find our audience. Thank
you.
John: And, I'd like to say a special thank you to Sarah Mason for putting us in touch with Philip. Uh, thank you, Sarah.
Drew: Yeah. Thank you,
Sarah.