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John: Cool. Well, let's jump in. So we start every episode, but Stacey does the theme song. It's
different every week. Um, so Stacey, take it away.
Stacy: John does all the preparation. This is the only thing I do to prepare. Dun, dun, dun, dun
dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. They don't call it show fun. They call it show business. If you are
a showrunner, you are the business. I'm sorry, I rhyme the word business with business cause
this is the showrunner show.
Dun, dun, dun dun
Nelson: right. All
John: All right. All right. Well, welcome to the Showrunner Show where every week we
demystify some aspect of the job of show running. For anyone who works in tv who wants to
work in TV or just wants to know how it's all made. This week we're talking with Nelson Greaves.
Um, and uh, and the topic this week is tips for the Writer's room Newbie and Nelson.
You know, we were, uh, doing two shows at the same time, so we really needed to. Rely on like
bad asses. And we found Nelson, thank God, and he showed up and he, he was able to like,
keep the whole show going. He managed, set, he managed the writers. The writers, like he did,
basically did everything, did all the work.
And then we just like patted ourselves on the back for like finding, finding such a good, uh,
good, uh, writer and, um, and partner in Nelson. So, uh, thank you Nelson. And so happy to
have you here today.
Nelson: Yeah. And, uh, our work comes out, uh, comes out shortly for the world to see it. So
very excited about that.
John: Uh, yeah. June 4th, Joe Pickett, season
Stacy: Picket season two.
John: Yeah. And, uh, and so, you know, I just wanted to kick up like, I feel like there's so many
kind of unwritten rules in a writer's room that for new people coming in, I know for myself, like I.
When I was first in a writer's room, I was like, wait, this is how it this works.
And that, like, I, I felt like I had to sort of fumble around blind, you know, to a lot of it. And I've
heard like secondhand a lot of the advice, Nelson, that you've given different riders over the
course of the season. And I'm like, God, that's such good advice. I gotta, I, I had have, sorry, just
to back up, like in our first meeting we were like inter, like our first like zoom inter like interview
or whatever meeting with you, uh, you broke down how an old boss of yours hired writers.
And Drew and I were like, that's the greatest advice. It
Stacy: I don't, I haven't heard this. What is it?
John: yeah. Do you remember this Nelson?
Nelson: Yeah, well, I'm sure I, I mean, I'm guessing you're talking about Chris Fedak, um, who I
saw, uh, also on the picket lines, uh, out there, uh, the other day. And, uh, he's doing great.
Uh, but he, this was told to me by his assistant, so, you know, uh, Chris might, uh, have a
different take on it, but basically, uh, that he, um, had this assistant read through some

scripts and really pulls stuff that really appealed to him.
Um, and, you know, he poked around and read some stuff, but basically he liked meeting
people before he truly did a deep dive into reading their work because so much of the
writer's room was about, you know, the chemistry of people being able to work together.
And, you know, the fact is you're stuck with these people, uh, for a long time, every day,
for many, many months.
and so, you know, it's important to make sure you like these people and, uh, to make sure that,
you know, there's gonna be really healthy working environment because at the end of the day in
tv. you know, you can be the most incredible writer in the world and you can be disastrous for a
show because if you can't sit in the room and be a team player and sort of work to build this
thing that, um, is, you know, very difficult, more, you know, too difficult really for, uh, for anyone
to do by themselves.
Like, it, it's great that you're in, you know, the world's best writer, but you could tank the entire
season. So, um, and that season was, was incredible room and it was just, uh, we were so
functional and, uh, we really came up with some great stuff and it was a really good lesson for
me in terms of, you know, gotta be a great writer.
You know, you can meet the nicest guy in the world and you gotta go to their script and, you
know, it really has to be there. But, you know, I think valuing equally, not putting on rose colored
glasses, um, or, you know, talent colored glasses, um, and being like, wow, this writing was so
incredible.
And yeah, you know, a little bit of, uh, you know, difficult personality, but, ah, the writing is so
good and it can be easy to look past that stuff, um,
Stacy: he was late and sulky and high
Nelson: Yeah.
Stacy: rude to the waiter. But you know what,
Nelson: Yeah.
Stacy: boy could he land a character?
John: if you had to choose like binary, you have to choose like great writer, but shitty in the
room or great in the room, and shitty rider. Who do you, who do you go with?
Nelson: I mean, I, I'm gonna cheat and say I choose one person who's great in the room and a
shitty rider, and I person choose one person that's, uh, bad in the room and a great rider. I, you
know, I think. I think ultimately not having both, um, is arrested before success or for, for failure.
And, you know, I can rewrite someone, um, you know, hopefully, hopefully I can rewrite them.
Well, you know, sometimes I can rewrite them terribly and, uh, but you know, that is a problem
you can fix. Um, you know, one would hope you're never hiring a shitty writer, but different
writers struggle with different things and, you know, I include myself in that. And, you know, there
are some things that come very easy to me and there's some things that are, are harder for me
to, to do.
So I think that the most essential thing in a room is on a show is that people can be good in the
room, which is, I know the answer that you were getting at. Um, but, um, you know, because
that's a problem that can't really be fixed except. You know, kicking people out of the room or,
you know, silencing them, you know, which is, is also not good for, you know, for room morale

or, you know, the chemistry of a room.
Stacy: I feel like newbie writers also, well all writers, but definitely newbie writers. I. Th they just
spend a lot more time in the room too. Maybe you're gonna get one episode. If there are 10
episodes, maybe you're gonna get one. You know what I mean? But you're in the room if you
are upbeat and you can pay attention, you can keep people focused, and you can generate
ideas, and you can riff.
You know, if you're good in the room, then you're gonna find your ideas sprinkled through
everybody's episodes, and really, you're only gonna be given one or maybe two anyway. Do you
know what I mean? So, better to be good in the room.
Nelson: Yeah, no, I, I think that's, that's definitely, that's definitely true as well. And you know, I
think it's very hard being a newbie writer. I, um, I. Think that, you know, there's a lot of pressure.
I remember being in my first room and, um, you know, I, I think I was a lot more oblivious and I
was, um, probably, uh, I probably should have been a little bit more, uh, uh, deferential and
spoken less and been less loud.
But, uh, you know, I was coming from having made this indie movie where I was like producing it
and I was sort of like, well, now I'm here and I'm loud. And it was a very non-traditional room
anyway. But in a traditional room, there's a lot of pressure. You're with these big people. I
remember I met a guy in my first room who wrote on Alf, and to me, that just exploded my mind
that I'm sitting here with a person who wrote af, you know, and like, you know, that also speaks
to being fresh in the business where. You know, everyone is so, it's like, oh my God, these
people, I've done these and, you know, and being now when it's just like, oh yeah, my friend
created that HBO hit, you know? which is such a, such a thing. But,
John: What you were getting at though, how, like, how much to talk, like, I, I found that too,
seeing, sometimes newbie writers show up and they don't speak at all, and sometimes they're
the, like the loudest voice in the room. And, and there's a danger to that in that the least
experienced person is essentially taken over control of the ship.
You know what I mean? And is steering it like kinda all over the, all over the place. what, what
would you say, like, what, what would be a perfect amount of, you know, talking for a, for a, a
newbie, uh, writer?
Nelson: Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, definitely error on the side of saying less, but at
the same time, you know, you were picked to be in this room for a reason. The showrunner saw
value in you and you know, they weren't, you know, they weren't bringing you on this show to, to
do you a favor or to fill a seat.
They were bringing, because you have a perspective. Um, that they want to hear. So, you know,
I think it's about really making sure you're speaking when you have something to say. I think in
writer's rooms it's really easy to just sort of jump in and start talking about something and riffing
when you don't actually have something meaningful to say.
And it, you know, a writer's room is a difficult place sometimes because, you know, on one hand
all we're doing is riffing and just sitting around, um, you know, and sort of shooting the shit and
out of that comes a story. But at the same time, you know, it's easy. It's easy to not actually have
a point and just sort of speak to speak.
I think the other thing is, and this is true of not just being a newbie writer, of being all kinds of
writers, but I think it's a lesson you learn, is not saying no as a newbie writer, never jumping in
and shooting an idea down. Um, and.
John: that's good. Yeah.

Nelson: Yeah. And, you know, no, nobody needs nobody. You know, a, a bad idea will, uh, will
kill itself.
Or if it needs to be killed, it'll be killed by, you know, somebody who's being paid to kill bad
ideas, which is maybe my favorite description of a showrunner ever. Uh,
John: That's amazing. I love that.
Nelson: um, but the, but nobody needs you to do that. And it's like, you know, people want what
you have to add. Um, not, not for you to be a gatekeeper.
John: That's great advice. I would say too, re-litigating, like almost like, you know, as a newbie,
like. Almost like you're on the freeway. You don't wanna be the fastest car on the freeway, like
ducking in and outta traffic. And you don't wanna be the slowest holding stuff up, but you wanna
be kind of going with the flow of traffic.
And, and then I would say after the fact too, like to not like the room has decided on a thing and
sort of moved on and moved on to another thing, like coming back after a break or something
saying like, I wanna go back to that thing. Cause I think we made the wrong decision. Like I, I've
seen that before too, where it's like, no, no, let's just, let's just keep in the flow, let's keep moving
forward.
And I think that's, you know, to your point, Nelson, that that re relitigation, um, sort of falls under
the, uh, gatekeeper.
Stacy: I found something super helpful for this because I have a very difficult time not talking.
Um, and I also, you know, what drives me absolutely bananas is when it's like, okay, let's hear
some ideas. You know, how does, uh, how do they find the, uh, the dead body? Let's come up
with great ways that they find the dead body and a couple people get to pitch, right?
And I'm there and I can't wait to say my thing about how they find the dead body. But then the
showrunner hears something they like from pitch number three. Like, good, we're gonna go with
that. And the room rolls with that. And I'm just sitting there dying like I wanted to say my way. So
I used to not be able to keep my mouth shut.
I just couldn't. And then during the breaks I'd be like, Stace, can I talk to you? And that's, that's
when I would hear that. So anyway, so what I ended up doing was I have this little notebook. I
keep it beside me, I keep the pen and it helps me stay focused too, where I can write down my
cool, cool idea, right?
And if the room flows past me and I didn't get to say it, well I've got it there, right? It's for all time.
And if the next day it turns out that we go back to it of like, you know what? That we thought that
was the pitch, but we're gonna go, we're going to, uh, what did you say? Killing bad ideas. If that
one turned out to be a bad idea and it dies, I've got mine there to talk about.
Or if I'm higher up that I high up, high up enough that I can get the showrunner's ear, then I can
privately say, Hey, here's another way we could go. Or, or honestly, especially with thriller type
shows or mystery type shows, you're gonna need 4,000 clues just because you didn't get to,
have your clue or your solution for this moment.
You can save that cool little set piece you came up with for something else. You could stick it in.
I drag set pieces just from season to season. Like now.
Now can we do the thing with the blow up doll on the trailer? Now, you know,
John: Yeah, it's true. We, we've had that one and we, I mean, I gotta say we had, uh, yeah, that
Falcon and Ducks, uh, thing at the start of episode, uh, six or so in Joe Picket season two, like

that is something like, that's that piece that teaser with, with Nate and the Falcons and Ducks,
rolled from. Episode to episode all season one.
We never found a place, uh, drew kept admonishing me. He like, uh, get mad at me for like, we,
we can't build the whole episode around, you know, the teaser. Like, do we have to do the
teaser last, not first, which is a real weakness of mine. I, I get, I, I love teasers and that's really
all I want to do in episodes.
And I gotta say, conversely, in Waco season one, like we blew past this, like we were gonna do
a wedding sequence and then we blew past that and we decided not to do it. Like, is that too,
you know, too light or, you know, feeling. And we all went home and like, and the next morning I
came in and the assistant and uh, a co-producer had like shown up early to discuss how they
could convince us to bring back the wedding sequence. And, uh, and just that kind of dedication,
it, it wasn't anything they said, it was that they cared so much that they showed up early and
they were discussing like a plan to re-approach it. and we ended up putting it back in. And I, I
would argue like the, the sequence and the way John Leg zamo, like, you know, you know,
eventually starts dancing with the congregation after the wedding.
Like, I feel like that sequence was a big part of the reason that he got nominated for an Emmy,
you know, in, in that season was that wedding sequence. And it, I don't know, it's a, I'm so proud
of that. You know, in part because we had killed it and it was, you know, brought back. Um, and
Stacy: I also assumed that when they pitched it to you, they were succinct and articulate. You
know, it wasn't just somebody bloviating of like, no, no, you know, it's not somebody eating up
the whole afternoon talking about how they liked the thing. It's like it was probably a clear
message.
John: Well, and it was outside of the room too, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like
sometimes in the room, you know, show running like half the time you're just terrified you're
making the wrong decision, you know, and, and to have people arguing or like re-litigate, like
sometimes it, uh, it can be really scary.
I'd say, you know, directing as well, like as a director on set, like every once in a while just
everyone turns against you and eat you for lunch. And uh, and that was like my day two of
studio, like on quarantine day two, like first studio movie. The actors just ate me for lunch and it
was like it, at the end of the day, it was like, well, I made it and I don't think I want to do this
job
Nelson: have I done? What have I done?
John: What have I done? I, I spent 12 years climbing this ladder, and I hate this. This is torture,
you know, climbing, you know, ladder to a rung of hell. And, uh, and Drew talked me down from
the ledge that night, you know, and, uh, and then Drew, you know, had some words with the
producers and I like prepared in a whole new way.
You know, I drew like, okay, you're blocking, you go from here to like, I, you know, something I
would never do now, but at that point I needed to, uh, learn to prepare in a different way,
Nelson: just think to sort of follow up on, on things you both said, I think, you know, you can
always, you know, sometimes showrunners are strong personalities, um, and they can be
frightening at times. But, you know, I don't know any show runner who gets mad or annoyed,
um, an email after the room of like, Hey, this is an idea that I'd had in the room, that I just
wanted to share.
I think if it's a thing that you do after every single room and you're, you know, every single day of
the week, this guy's getting an email or this, you know, this woman's sorting through, you know,

the hundreds of emails you're sending, then yeah, absolutely. You can be annoying. But, you
know, we're all in the business of.
Putting great ideas together. And you know, I've been in a few rooms where, a version of John,
what you said with, with Waco, where the showrunner comes in and says, uh, Hey, you know,
this person sent me this thing last night. I think they're really interesting ideas. Let's like start
today by taking a look at these.
you know, or you get an email back that says, Hey, this is a cool idea. Let's hang onto it. You
know, some polite version of, of no. Um, but, you know, didn't interrupt anything. It didn't, you
know, all it cost was a showrunner having to read an email for a second. And, uh, you know, I
think generally that kind of thing is really appreciated, I think as a young writer showing initiative.
but showing the right amount of initiative, you know, not too much. You never wanna become a
burden. Um, but there's, there's a lot of stuff like that, you I also think, you know, I don't think it's
a terrible problem. To come back from lunch and, you know, especially if there was something
really tricky you were talking about before lunch, to be like, I know I've done, I feel like I do this a
lot, where I'd be like, okay guys, I have a crazy idea.
Like, remember that thing we were talking about? Like, what if it's the complete opposite? Um,
you know, and like, hopefully you can read the room and if people are like, people are like, no,
that doesn't work. Be like, okay, cool.
Stacy: Is that something you'd only do as a high level writer, or would you have done that as a
newbie,
Nelson: no, I think, I think that's something I would've done as a newbie. I mean, you know, it's
like hard to tell cause I'm sort of like loud and unaware I think. Um, but,
Stacy: but you've done well? So maybe that's a gift. You know,
Nelson: but no, I, I don't, I don't think that's inappropriate. Um, Inappropriate at all. And you
know, every room is very, very unique and uh, you know, they're all sort of little tiny Stanford
prison experiments, I think where, um, you sort of give people titles and put them in an enclosed
space. Uh, and suddenly someone is the boss who, you know, doesn't necessarily have
management skills, but is a good writer.
Um, but, you know, uh, if the room feels like that's, I think that's a totally acceptable thing to do.
And just to follow up, Stacy, on your thing of like writing things down, I think that one of the
hardest things about being in the room is letting good ideas that you have die cuz you didn't get
a chance to say them.
And it's like they can be, sometimes the ideas just die. You just, and it can be so hard. It's like
you're just like, I have the answer, but I'm not able to get in. And like, then you just accept that
it's never gonna happen and you know, You move on and you know, maybe your idea was
perfect, but the part, you know, there's casualties in war and but that is very hard.
Stacy: Another thing I did, uh, where you could even, I liked the room ending and then I would
write down the experience. Um, I had like a spreadsheet, this is so dumb, but I would say like,
this is what we did and talked about before, you know, before the coffee break. This is what we
did after the coffee break.
It's what we did after lunch. You know, and I kept kind of a running thing of it because I thought,
oh, if I ever run a room, I'm gonna be so scared. I wanna be able to look back and go like, how
long did we blue sky? How long did we talk about one? Like how, how long did each thing take?
You know? Because if I ever do get to run a room, I don't wanna be like a deer in the headlights,

like, ugh God.
You know? Um, and I found that really helpful. I could see doing a similar thing. So that was just
to be like, literally, what did we talk about? You know, I'm gonna forget. but you could also, I
imagine, do a similar thing for, say you had ideas that you thought were really great, you didn't
get to do, you could just keep a running list of them.
You know what I mean? And if you're on the show long enough, Like I said, you'll probably have
a chance to, to pitch those again for a different episode, a different season, or you know, a
whole different series.
John: Yeah, I think I, I, I love that. And I gotta say too, to, to go back to the like, kind of
relitigation, like, I love the way you're saying it, Nelson with like, I have a crazy idea. What if we
turn it on it's head? I would couch it as if it's like, you know, sort of a general flow thing. Like
that's one thing.
If it's been a hot button, like there's, every once in a while a thing that everyone just has a
different opinion on. It becomes, I don't know, like kind of a blood sport for like this one detail.
Like, you know, this like, And I feel like in every room there's that, you know, that thing and you
know, um, and I can remember what they are in most rooms, you know, but going back
sometimes it's like you just have to stick a, a, a cart on the board and keep moving on those and
then going back, you know, I, I would say going back to a hot button topic right after launch, like
going back to, I dunno, something that emotions were, were flaring.
Uh, could be, uh, I don't know. I, I would avoid that. I
Nelson: I would say as a new writer, whenever emotions are flaring, completely avoid any of
those things at all. That is not, that is like a gunfight that's happening above your pay grade. Um,
don't get embroiled in that because you know, I mean, things can get, you know, things can get
ugly in rooms and, you know, things can get mean.
Um, and just, it's not, you just shouldn't, shouldn't be in the middle of it. Let let people who are
getting paid a lot more to endure this, uh, be the ones hashing it out. I think, you know, I think
more of what I, I was thinking of, uh, you know, not something that's gonna to blow anything up,
but, you know, I also think it's anytime you're doing something like that, coming in very, very
gently, you know, and couching something as this is a crazy idea, or it's like, it's just an idea.
I don't wanna blow anything up, but it's just like, I had it at lunch, so I'm just gonna say it and
then we can move on, you know? Yeah.
John: Those can be super helpful too, like cuz every once in a while people are just locking
horns cuz they're tired, they don't have a better idea. You know what I mean? Like there's. Drew
and I like to, you know, between the two of us, because we're like a, you know, collaborative
duo, that there's always that third way.
There's always like, I may have an idea of, I think this thing should be this way and Drew thinks
it should be this way. There's always a third way that can, you know, make sense of both of
those things. Not splitting the difference, you know, necessarily, but like
Stacy: a third way.
John: a third way, like in, and we always try to prioritize the third way over, our way, if that
makes sense.
Stacy: I think it's helpful to be able to articulate why you're coming up with the idea. You know,
you don't always have to do this. Sometimes you can just pitch the idea and people are like, no,
you pitch it and they're like, great. But sometimes, especially if people are moving in circles or

you're looking for that third way that you're talking about John, it's helpful to be able to say like, I
like all the ideas we're coming up with, but I was really hoping for a moment between these two
characters that was deeper.
We've been keeping things kind of shallow and light. I was hoping for like a really rich moment,
or conversely you could go like, these are fun. I like these moments that we came up with. But I
was really kind of hoping that when we had this solution or at the end of, you know, this act that
we'd have a really exciting moment.
Like y you know what I mean? Like if you could say what you're looking for, whether it's more
depth or more surprise or more excitement or whatever it is that you're hungering for and that's
what you're trying to pitch on. Um, I think it's helpful to be able to articulate that sometimes, not
all the time, but especially if, if everyone's going back and forth, uh, and, and ideas taking longer
for people to solve than usual.
John: yeah.
Nelson: Stacy, I will also say is the best at this of anyone who I have ever worked with, of really,
uh, being able to come in and exactly articulate where her thought is coming from. Um, and it's
very,
Stacy: Thanks.
Nelson: Oh, no, it's, it's very, very true. Um, so, you know, don't, don't be, uh, don't be
discouraged if you have trouble, um, dly having these explanations at your fingertips because
Stacy makes it seem very easy, but it can be difficult.
John: that's a really good point. And you're
Stacy: I'm looking for an idea. That's more my idea. I'm looking for something that's not your
idea. Right.
John: Well, and part of this, you know, like, I think a lot of this is looping back like a writer's
room is like a team sport, you know what I mean? Like, we've all been on team sports where if,
you know, we've played team sports where there's like the one person who wants to do all the
stuff themselves and you know, or like teams that really work, um, together and, you know, it's,
it's at the end of the day, like you hear a writer was on the show succession and you're like,
wow, that writer, like that glory is spread across everyone in that room versus, uh, In the room,
you know, that person might have felt competitive with the people around them, but that, that
internal competition, I feel like, you know, sometimes people, I think may lose sight because
these are the people you're surrounded by every day.
Um, sometimes lose sight that you're a team and you'll rise or fall together at the end of the day.
Nelson: Totally. Yeah, and I think it's like, you know when, especially when you're not writing
anything, it can be hard because it feels like your only chance to win anything is in this room.
Pitching ideas. And, you know, I think I certainly find myself at times, like arguing something that
I don't even actually believe in or like, it's just like I somehow found myself on the other side of
this debate and, you know, hopefully I am able to, you know, stop myself and be like, I, I, I don't
actually believe in I, you know, I, I completely backed down.
Um, but you know, you can, you can trap yourself in there because it's like, this is what we're
doing. We're here to discuss ideas, and suddenly I'm engaged in a debate.
Stacy: Sometimes people get very attached to their favorite characters too. I feel like that's
where a lot of the fights come to and the competition isn't even so much, um, writer to writer or
like, I want my ideas, but more I. I don't know. It seems to me that, uh, writers usually end up

with their one or two or three very favorite characters that they like to write for and pitch for.
And so it's almost like I'm not being very articulate, but you know what I mean. Like, like
somebody's competing to have their favorite character, whose voice they love to write in, have
bigger moments,
John: yeah. I still remember like season one of Pickett, like, you know, Stacy was like, Jeanie,
Keely and the Weasel. Like, uh, you know, like those are like her favorite things to write and, uh,
Stacy: sisters.
John: And the sister. Oh yeah, the sisters. And yeah, it reminds me, I, I had a writer friend who
had this dream once, uh, where he went to a movie, like he was in a movie theater and
onscreen, there was a guy who looked just like him and horrible things were happening to him,
and everyone around him was like laughing hilariously, and he was so upset, like, you know, that
they were all laughing at horrible things happening to a guy who was just like him.
And I, I think so it's funny how, how much, like in the writer's room, things get personal and
things like we, you know, get vulnerable. We talk about, you know, this thing happened to me,
you know, when I was a kid. And, you know, and we write that into stuff and we, we form like
real, like, I don't know, emotional attachments, I think to different characters.
And if, you know, everyone wants to kill off a character that you feel emotionally attached to or
something horrible happened to that character, I think that can, you know, people can have
surprising reactions to things, you know, because it is so kind of therapeutic in a way.
Nelson: I, I think that can even really like be on a micro scale where you just have some pitch
that you just, you know, maybe it is coming from a very personal place and so you feel like there
is an absolute truth in it, um, that you just like hold onto and I would say, The worst, maybe the
worst thing of all things in a room, short of like people who like, you know, publicly degrade other
people's ideas and call things stupid and stuff like that.
Cuz that's, um, but, you know, in the realm of not being a horrific person, um, is be like being a
do. There's, you know, there's all this room jargon that, you know, when you get in the writer's
room, suddenly, you know, there's like hang a lanter not, and, and, uh, you know, putting a
button and um, one of them is being a dog with a bone.
And it's when you won't let a pitch go and there's nothing more disruptive in a room and worse
for a show than somebody holding on and refusing to let the conversation move forward
because they want their pitch to be the thing. And, um, you know, somebody told me at one
point, I forget who, um, or maybe I made it up myself.
Never pitch more than twice. It's like if you really love something,
Stacy: Never pitch one idea more than twice.
Nelson: one idea more than twice, and it's like, if you really, really love things and then
somebody says no, and you, say like, I don't know. I really think this is the right thing. If people
say no, again, that idea's dead, never think about it again.
You know, because there are people who will bring, they'll continue to bring stuff up, and it's
really annoying and disruptive and, it doesn't look good, you know, come up with a new idea
like,
Stacy: mm.

John: I love that. I love that advice because it is, at the end of the day, this is a, you know, It's a
professional environment, it's a job. Like, it's a, you know, we're, we're building a boat and you
may, you know, wanna, I don't know, put a, an emblem on the boat that nobody else likes or it
doesn't fit. Um, yeah.
And to, to roll with that I think is so important. Like, I love that. I love that piece of
Stacy: I wanna do stuff with the boat analogy too, because see, if I were building a boat, the
only thing I would care about is like that pr. I'd be all just like, I always liked the secondary
characters and the quirky moments. I'd be like, fuck the boat. I just, there you go. There you go.
Smart hip pants. I would just wanna talk about that mermaid, like, what do they call it, A mast
head,
John: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd be all masted and you'd wanna go like granny style. You'd
wanna make it look like a granny house, you
Stacy: It'd be amazing. My mast head would be like a fairy garden. It'd be so cool. But if I'm a
dog with a bone and I'm obsessing about this mast head and meanwhile the whole room has
moved on, guess what? While I'm completely focused on that one thing and all I can do is think
about, obsess, about, pitch, about, and you know, think about that one thing, all the other
decisions are getting made.
Without my focus, without my attention, I could have been there helping out with the end of act
five or helping out with how to land a character or helping out with, you know, how to make the
boat float, any of that. And I've missed all of it because I've been thinking about this other thing,
whi, which by the way, obsessing about that one thing is still better.
Well, maybe it's not. Then people who just tune out. Where that happens sometimes where
somebody does their pitch, they really love something, it dies, it hurts their feelings, and they
spend the, the rest of the room or the rest of the season not participating. Kind of like if it's in a
Zoom room, which is mostly what I've done, you can tell, you can see their little fingers are flying
and their eyes are shifting, and you're like, you're right in something else.
Are you, you're just, you're just like, nobody can even tell if I'm talking, you know? Um, so that
can happen too, where people don't get their pitch. They, you know, they won't let it go. And so
they're just, they're out, they're just gonna cross their arms and be like, you do your So then,
John: yeah. That's so true. Some people do like, or, or after, you know, one of the things that I
feel like isn't told to new writers enough is you will be rewritten, you know what I mean? Like,
straight across the board. Like you, like no matter what, you will be rewritten that is not, because
you didn't do a great job, or that you're not brilliant. Like, it's just, it's just how, you know, the
show has to have kind of one overall tone and stuff. So, you know, some of that. Um, and I've
seen. You know, and heard stories also of like writers who get rewritten and are just like, well
then why do I even show up?
You know what I mean? And have sort of a checked out quality after that.
Nelson: Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, you know, it is, writing is personal and you know, it's like,
I've done many seasons of television and still every time, you know, you know, even on like
Picket John, which we write something in mind and you know, it's like absolutely making it
better. Absolutely. Like bringing it more in line with the show, but it's like, it's hard to not feel like
it's a judgment on you, even if, you know, the other part of your brain can understand.
Actually no, this is correct. you know, that's just the nature of writing, but especially when you're
young and don't have that confidence and you don't honestly know if you can do this job. Truly. I
mean, that's how I felt. My, I was just like, oh, maybe I can't do this job.

Stacy: Hmm.
Nelson: knowing yeah, that this is, everyone's experiencing this no matter how successful you
are.
Stacy: I think it's good for newbie writers to know as well. There's a wide variety from room to
room, show runner to show runner even season to season of how you're gonna be asked to. Be
part of the rewriting process or not. Like say, you know, you turn in your draft and maybe the
showrunner or the strong number two will look at it and say, Hey, I've got some notes for you.
I'm gonna kick it back to you. I'm gonna ask you to take those notes and send it to me. Or they
might not do that. They might just go, thank you very much for the draft. And they might do the
rewriting even before they send it up the chain. Then once it goes up the chain to like the
producers and then the studio, and then the network, is then you may or may not as the writer,
as the newbie writer be invited to be on the phone calls or the zooms, or they give notes on
those drafts. Uh, and then, you know, once you get all the notes saved from the network, who's
gonna take those notes? Sometimes the showrunner, the strong number two, might say like,
Hey, original writer, now's your chance to take 'em.
Let's see what you have to, you know what you can do? Or you might never get to see it again. I
think, is that true? There's that much variety and they're all acceptable. Right.
Nelson, I'm asking you cause you have way more experience than me.
Nelson: no, for sure. Uh, for sure that, that, that varies, varies wildly. But the, you know, and
bringing this back to the room though, I think the same kind of thing can happen in a room
where, especially when you're a younger writer, you know, you're pitching less infrequent, you
know, less frequently. And you know, I think, you know, and it's like, you can see it with younger
writers, it's like, They're, you know, younger writers are like writing assistants where it's like,
they're just like, they're waiting, they're waiting, you know, it's like they're not, they feel so
uncomfortable talking over people and, you know, understanding sort of the rhythm of writers'
rooms and how you interrupt people.
Like what is the acceptable level of interruption, you know? And, and you know, there's a whole
thing of like, you gotta jump, you gotta like, know when you're allowed to start. And it's, it's really
like a, a skill that you learn a muscle and you don't have it when you're, you're, you know, a staff
writer. Um, and so it can be like, okay, I'm waiting.
Now's my chance. I pitched something, lukewarm response or even negative response. It's so
easy to be like, well dang, now I'm never gonna pitch anything again. As opposed to, it's like, no,
it's like, you know, that one didn't work, but like everyone wants you to get back up. Everyone
wants you to keep pitching.
That's, that's why you're here.
Stacy: Mm, when people are shy. I actually had a writer, uh, Because I'm not shy. I love
interrupting. It's all I do. And I had a writer, uh, call me and say like, Hey, I, I want to pitch more. I
don't think I'm talking enough. Um, I notice you feel very comfortable pitching, polite way to say
it. Do you have any tips? And I was like, oh.
First of all, I was super flattered. Like, oh my God, you asked me for advice. Thank you so
much. Um, but then, yeah, I think part of it, cuz like you said Nelson, you're, you're sitting there
going, when can I jump in? When can I jump in? Six people are talking and they're all above my
pay grade. When can I jump in?
By the way, as you're thinking that, and your heart's pounding, literally you're missing everything
they're talking about. I mean, you can't hear shit when you know you've missed all the ideas

they've thrown out. Cause your ears are just buzzing of like, when am I gonna jump in? I think it
can be helpful to know what phrase you're gonna jump in with.
You can even be a dork and write them down on the side. Like, here's an idea, or I've got one,
or, this sounds crazy. You know, something that. Inserts you quickly so that when you jump in
you can verbally jump as opposed to your thing goes. Well, I just, uh, I think maybe, uh, and
you've already lost them, you know what I mean?
People are gonna talk over you. Um, you know what else is nice about that? If the Shire people
shire, the more shy people, uh, have a little phrase that they can jump in with. It also bounces
things out. Cuz some people do the most talking and jump in all the time cuz they're just fucking
loud. You know, they're just, they got big mouths and they're a little obnoxious.
And I think even though I'm probably one of those people, I think rooms always benefit if those
obnoxious talk too much voices kind of, um, speak a little less and the shy people speak a little
more. Ah, just a thought.
Sometimes you can have disingenuous ones too. Like I'll be like, I wanna piggyback off of what
so-and-so said and I, I don't care what they said at all. I'm not piggybacking off as shit, this is a
whole new topic, but I wanna circle back.
I wanna piggyback on that or adding to what Nelson said. Here's my whole other thing.
I love the thing about like a fish jumping outta the water. What if it jumped off outta the water
and, and caught a baby and dragged the baby under the water?
You know,
John: Geez,
Stacy: you, I dunno where that came
John: off the top of your head, that's what
you pick. Yeah.
Stacy: top. I should not have taken that spray of mushrooms before he start. No, but you can.
It's nice to name check people. It includes them and sort of focuses them. And then, and then
you are all truly building off of, it's not your idea or their idea. The ideas are pinging back and
forth, back and forth until the whole room comes up with an idea.
Doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's a very satisfying.
John: I love that.
Nelson: No. Also to, to piggyback off that, see what I did. you know, there, there's really, there's
really a whole language to this and there are, it is really like this there, you know, what Stacy's
saying that there are all sort of, all of these phrases, um, you know, like, uh, okay, what if we
turned it on its head or Yeah, I think, you know, calling out people and be like, jumping off of that
thing, uh, li you know, learning these skills and like observing how these other writers.
Are, are speaking and, and the way that they get pitches out. And it is really, there are all of
these strategies and all of these different things that you use and just listen and, and observe.
And it's not just about what you're saying, it's about the methods of delivery. Um, because it's
not just having a normal conversation, it's not just sitting around.

It is, you know, you are functionally doing something. You are, you know, it's a little bit like a
courtroom where there are, you know, these ways that you do stuff. Um, and, you know,
hopefully it's more upbeat than a courtroom. Sometimes it's less upbeat than a courtroom. But,
um, but it's sort of a formalized conversation, even if it seems to, uh, an untrained observer to be
just people chatting.
John: I love that. And you know, to that point too, like that kind of idea of like professionalism or,
you know, drew, and I like to say, like, always be selling, like always be marketing ourselves in
everything we do to like, look like we're, I, I don't know, professional, um, prepared, you know
what I mean? Like, we, we try to never seem like we're just goofing around, you know what I
mean?
Like, you know, and, and I think so often, you know, some. Some writers have a natural gift for
this, where they show up, they're eager, they're prepared, they read all this stuff, and those
writers tend to do really well in the writer's room environment and move up very quickly. And
some don't do that as much.
You know, we had, you know, you know, in a Zoom room we had, you know, someone doing the
writer's room from, uh, you know, hotel room in Cabo with a bunch of friends like milling around
in the back. Like, it doesn't, it's not a good look, you know what I mean? That's not, you know
what I mean?
There's, there's things like that where, you know, there's, you can tell who's engaged and who's
doing the research. Like people notice the people who are showing up and playing full in, even if
they're not pitching constantly. You can tell who's engaged. And you know, in Zoom rooms, like
there's times when you see the light suddenly change, you know, on the screen in someone's
face.
You're like, oh, you're like watching a movie or something. Like you're truly checked out and
then they pitch on something, you're like, you're, you literally have no idea what's been, you
know, that's a pitch. Yeah. That's a pitch from half an hour ago that someone else ha like, you
know, you can tell very quickly who, who you want in the next room.
And I think so much of that is, you know, building a career is not like, well they didn't take my
idea. So, you know, f this show. Like, I'm just gonna phone it in and I'll get a better show on the
next season. And, but all the people in that room are gonna go to different shows. You know,
they're all gonna be.
Everyone in that room, the writer's assistant may be, you know, the biggest showrunner, you
know, in five years. You know what I mean? Like, you just don't know. And just to be always, you
know, kind of putting your best foot forward and, um, trying to keep your eyes on the horizon,
not on the individual waves, you know what I mean?
And just to remember, like, you know, this detail in this script doesn't really matter. What matters
is, you know, five years from now, I want all these people to like, think of me and be like, I would
love to work with that person. They, they're a killer. Like, they, they show up, they're always
prepared, they're always like, they really care.
They put their heart into it. Um, and it's like, I, I, I know like you can see the difference very
clearly, you know? Yeah.
Stacy: I feel like you're talking about focus, and I've noticed that's, uh, an important thing in the
room that people don't really talk about. But you know, cuz people do chat at first. They, people
arrive in the room, they don't, it's not the first sentence out of somebody's mouth is about the
show. Usually there's, you know, five minutes of how is your weekend or things like that, maybe
even more on a Friday.

And that stuff's actually really valuable and as people are pitching, they might naturally share
something from their childhood or their life experiences. That's where the personal and the
professional blend. But basically it's a matter of focus. How much can people focus on what the
task of the day is?
And people have varying degrees, some people really poop out, they can't do much after lunch.
They're sort of checked out. They wish, they wish. It was all just joking and talking. And I find for
me, something that helps with focus and helps maintain focus is I try to think of. I try to think of
whenever I'm in the room, I really enjoy the room as being two jobs.
One job is I'm doing whatever task we have that day, whether it's coming up, the climax of the
season, whatever it is. And my other job is to learn, just to learn everything I can about all the
stuff we've been talking about. How do you jump in on a pitch? You know, what works, what
ideas work or die? What?
Just anything that I can learn. Um, have, thinking of that, thinking of the room as a learning
process keeps me engaged in a more calm way where I'm not as excitable as like, oh, I have a
pitch. It failed. Oh, I have a pitch. It failed. I can sort of take a, a more observant tone and, uh,
oh my God, I am rambling.
Somebody saved me from this thought. It's just fizzled.
John: no, you're, that's, so I, I love that, like Drew and I, you know, like. Like, you know, like to
say, our goal is to be the best filmmakers, writers, you know, directors, producers. Like our goal
is to be the best at this we can possibly be. And you don't get there without learning like how to,
how to fix a script that's not working or how to, you know, how to, how to fix the movie.
You shot poorly. You know what I mean? Like how do you, how do you, how do you make a
movie you shot that doesn't work? Work? I remember, you know, I shot quarantine and I called
Stacy when I saw the, you know, first cut and I was like, oh my God. They're like, my career is
over. Like I'm,
Stacy: Well, your studio notes were like every day. They were like, more shaky cam, make it
shake more, make it more exciting. And you're like, I don't know about this guys. And then you
put it all together and it's like, Jesus Christ, why is the camera shaking so much? It's like, cuz
you made me.
John: yeah, it was horrible. And there was that, and then just. There's just like, it just didn't, you
know, the first cut of it didn't work, uh, like truly. And I was like, oh. And, and I've since learned,
like over time, oh, my movies never work. I always shoot 'em terribly and I always look at the
first cut and they're terrible.
And then I just turn the screws on it. And, and it worked, you know, eventually works. And the
first two weeks of post, and I've told other directors, like, oh, the first two weeks of post, like, um,
yeah. And they're like, no, no, no. I, I know what I shot. It was amazing. And then they call me in
the first two weeks of post, they're like, oh my God, thank God you forewarned me that, that I
was gonna feel that way.
Um, but I, I think so much of it is like to learn, yeah. To learn, to show up and learn. And if that's
the goal is to be. And I feel like that is the best mentality. The people who show up eager, ready,
you know, pitch something, it doesn't work. It gets thrown out and they stay engaged. You know,
they're not.
Like, oh, like, you know, if you're showing up for self-worth on, you know what I mean? Like, am
I good at, do these people think I'm good at this? Or do they think I'm bad at this? If that's your
primary objective, like it, it can be like, today they love me today, they don't today. You know, it

can be a very, um, you know, tumultuous thing to put yourself through.
But if you're like, Hey, nobody's gonna show up, like having all the answers, we all have to rely
on each other. Everyone's here to support me and I'm here to support them, and I'm gonna learn
a lot in every room, you know, even if it's like learning what I, how, I don't wanna run a show, you
know, room when I'm show running, you know, even if it's that like, which, you know, it's like
dating, like, you know, you learn from dating as much what you don't want.
You know, as much as what you do over time.
Stacy: Agreed.
I know we're getting it, it's 10 o'clock, but we keep teasing out this glossary of terms. Could we
just throw some of them out? Is there any value to that of like, hang the lantern, I don't even
know what hang the lantern means. Should we do some of those?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: we're gonna, we're
John: walk us through a glossary of terms, like, I
think this would be great.
Nelson: gosh, I'm being really put on the spot. Uh, well
Stacy: Nelson
Nelson: we can,
John: a gla uh, hang of lantern on it.
Nelson: yeah. So hang a lantern on. It is, um, when you're talking about something and you
notice some detail, um, that is like weird. Uh, so, you know, it's like, ugh, it doesn't really make
sense. Um, why they wouldn't have called the police, you know, and you're like, oh, what if we
hang a lantern on it and be like, oh look, they didn't call the police.
That doesn't make any sense. I mean, this is a, I'm gonna be terrible at these
John: No, no, that's great.
Nelson: might be a part of the show we cut, because
John: No, no, no, no. I think this is so helpful. Like, cuz you know these are tricks and tools like,
hey, this thing doesn't, the logic of this thing doesn't make sense. But if we call it out very clearly
so the audience knows that we also see it, then they can let their mind rest and not go, wait, that
doesn't make any sense.
They didn't call the cops. Cuz if they're like, if they're like, why didn't, you know, if our heroes are
like, why didn't those people call the cops when this thing happened? Like, that's suspicious like
Stacy: And you could do that through dialogue or action, right? The dialogue could be like, Hey,
Harry, why didn't they call the cops? That's pretty good, right, guys? Or the action could just be,
you know, like, you know, off of her face. She looks confused. Why didn't they call the cops?
Question mark.

John: Yeah.
Nelson: I mean, I, I would say it, it's less that actually, and it's more inactive story, you know, I
think thinking of it less on paper and thinking of it more just like the breaking of a story. If it's like
something seems weird, uh, you know, well let's, let's, um, call it, calling it out, basically. What,
or leaning, leaning into the fact that it's weird.
Um, as opposed to trying to hide it from people. Um, which, you know, is never gonna work cuz
audiences are smart. Um, so, uh, I said like being a dog with a bone, you know, that's, you have
an idea that you really, really love and the room is trying to move on. and you just don't move
on.
Stacy: Blue sky
Nelson: blue sky, you know, I think that crosses, you know, multiple genre, you know, multiple
disciplines.
But, um, you know, but that's just sort of thinking we're just blue skying. We're just. We're trying
to plan, you know, the season, this is the first week or first two weeks. Let's just throw up every
idea that we have. Um, and, uh, really not try to restrict ourselves to anything.
Stacy: and now get too in the weeds where you're getting real specific
John: Yeah.
Nelson: Or losing the forest. Seeing the forest for the trees, losing the forest for the trees. What,
what that, whatever the exact wording is. Basically missing the forest for the trees. Right. You
know, of like, our heads are, you know, we're worried about, uh, something in this scene, but it's
like, you know, losing sight of the big picture, um, that like, this doesn't matter.
We're getting confused about something that's actually very simple if we just step back. Um,
John: I love that. A mailbox, uh, what is it, A mailbox id or mailbox pitch? Is that,
Nelson: I've never heard that?
John: It's like, uh, or it's the, it's like the wrong address, but it's like, I have a pitch, like
something in this world. Andy, Andy, and, uh, Lauren would use that one. I, I can't remember. It
was
like a,
Nelson: never heard that one.
John: It was a, God, they called it a mailbox pitch or something like, it's, it's the wrong address,
but it's the right neighborhood.
You know, something, um, you know, like, or I, I think there's things that are just simple, like,
Hey, this is the bad version of
this pitch. Here's the bad version. But what if, you know, a guy sh you know, knocks on the door,
opens the door and says, why didn't they call the cops? You know what I mean? Like, that's the
bad version, but you know what I mean?
Like, and that's truly bad. But,

Stacy: I like how our listeners are probably increasingly like, can these guys write at all?
Nelson: Have, have any of them been in a writer's room? Uh,
John: yeah.
Stacy: a character, that's one of my favorites. I love when people land a character. Like when
you meet a character for the first time, they, you meet them in such a way that it's not some
generic way, it's some way that's really them. It's memorable. It gives you a glimpse into their
true character.
You know, let your trashy character be trashy and let your noble ones be noble. Like land the
character.
John: I love that. That's a, that's an important one too. And yeah, not, it's hard to land 10
characters at once. You know what I mean? When you see in a script like Meet Joe Schmo and
Susie Schmo, and this person and this, it's like you wanna kind of do it one at a time and just
really do something memorable every time you want, you know, wanna land a character.
Nelson: Yeah.
there's a lot. I I,
John: yeah. Those are
Nelson: I wish I were sitting in a room that I could make a list of them, but, um, but you know,
they're not, if you're in a room and you're, you're listening to people, they're all wonderfully
context, clue. Um, you know, so nobody listening should feel like, uh, they gotta figure out all
these things.
So before they come into a room, you know, they're gonna understand everything. It's, it's just
sort of a, a, a learned jargon that, that people use as shortcuts in, in writer's rooms.
Stacy: You can ask people, you know, not to get the room too off track, but if it's appropriate,
you can ask a person like, what does that mean? Or where do that come from? And chances
are they're gonna tell you a hilarious story about like, I was in a room with so-and-so and he
used to say this all the time. And let me tell you, you know, I'd like, the war stories are so fun.
And, uh, usually if a person has an unusual phrase that can't be figured out from context, there's
usually a fun little anecdote behind it about a colorful old coot.
John: Yep. Well, let's jump into the Rapid Fire four and wrap this, uh, wrap this episode up. Uh,
so there's four questions we ask every week. The first of those is what is the first television show
you truly loved and why?
Nelson: So I took this, um, you know, it's like I liked things when I was young, but yeah, I, I took
this to be like as an adult. Um, and uh, the answer is Smallville. Um, and I think because it, I
don't know, it was just this, like I was perfectly the right age. I was a freshman in high school and
I was in love with Lana Lang and it was just this like perfectly soapy combination of being a
teenager but then also like super going and doing crazy things.
And, um, I also was really obsessed with the Lex Luther character for reasons that I don't know.
But I feel like I still write Lionel Luther, his father in so many of the things that I do, cuz it just
planted so much on me. But, uh, yeah, definitely Smallville, I used to call just quickly. I used to
call my, uh, My buddy on the commercial breaks, which is like such a experience that doesn't
exist now and be like, oh my gosh.

Like, did you just see that and be like, okay, okay. It's coming back. It's coming back. And then
we would hang up on each other. Um,
John: That's amazing. I love that.
Stacy: what is your favorite part of the job?
Nelson: my favorite part of the job, uh, this is hard and I thought about it. Um, I honestly really
like writing. I, I really like sort of the experience of like, getting things that are completely
intangible. Um, it's the hardest part of the job, I think for sure. But like having something, having
written a scene that is like, great, it's just very satisfying.
And then of course, it's like you write it and it's great and it's like basically never better than that
because then it's gonna be torn apart a billion different ways and, you know, completely cut in
half on set and the whole thing's gonna be changed. But like that first part of it where it's pure
and pristine and I, I really enjoy that.
John: that's beautiful. What is the part of the job that costs you something?
Nelson: I mean, I think the main thing is, you know, it's a similar thing of other jobs, but it's like, I
think there is a real sacrifice of, like a work life distinguishing, you know, where it's like, it can
always, I mean, I'm also just a super, like a workaholic. And so every time I'm not working, I just
feel guilty about what I'm doing.
But you know, the fact that you sort of are always at the edge of not having a job, you always
kind of have to, to be looking for other things and that means lose, you know, missing out on, on
things. You know, that missing out on being with your family cuz you have to go to set for three
months in, you know, in Alberta for instance.
Um, you know, and, and there are just real sacrifices that, that you have to have, you know,
missing, staying up Friday night because you have to get a script in, uh, you know, by Saturday.
Like, you know, stuff like that. It, it really does cost you something.
Stacy: And if you had a time machine, you do. Right. What one piece of advice would you give
yourself when you started your television journey?
Nelson: Well, I feel like we've talked about it a bunch, um, is I, I would talk less and listen more.
Um, um, and, uh, I just think that, you know, that would be, I probably, uh, would've learned
more and, um, I think learned a lot of mistakes quicker than I did. But, um, but you know, that's
about it. A lot of stuff. It's like you could tell, you know, a lot of stuff you have to experience for
yourself.
So I could tell young me this advice and then you would've probably been like, yeah, right. Like,
I don't believe you.
Stacy: Shut up, boomer.
Nelson: Yeah. You're old.
John: That would be, that's a pretty funny like time travel movie. You get to go back and give
yourself advice and young you is like, shut up. You don't know anything, you know?
Stacy: This is a funny thing about John. John does not like when people tell him what to do and
John will leave himself voice memos that are like, you gotta pick up the so-and-so, or remember
to do this. And when he hears his own voice, sing it. He's like, fuck you. I do what I want. Like,
he doesn't even like it when he is reminding himself.

John: It's true. I've had to change it to be like, if you want to read this book, this could be a good
book to read. Like, I, I have to do that to myself, otherwise I'm
Stacy: You've got the power, John.
Nelson: an idea. It's just an idea. Okay.
John: I know, I know. There's some That's obviously something wrong with me as Yeah. But,
yeah. Well, Nelson, thank you. This is, uh, really helpful. We'll come back next week with
another Nelson episode.