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Jed: Oh, freaking rosy.
Stacy: wants to be on camera.
Jed: So
Drew: Rosie the podcaster.
Stacy: Is this thing on? Is this thing on, Can I make up a new theme song for our show every
week?
Drew: absolutely.
Stacy: Okay. Okay. Welcome to the Party. It's the Showrunner Show podcast. The Showrunner
Show.
Jed: That
Drew: pretty impressive. That was really good.
Stacy: Thank you.
Drew: And there's gonna be a new one every week, so,

Jed:
this is the Showrunner show. Um, I'm John Eric Dole.
Drew: Uh, and I'm Drew Dole.
Stacy: And I am Stacy Sebaski, but my married name is Stacy Dowdle, so I'm unofficially.
Officially a doubt.
So John and Drew are brothers, and I am married to John. So it's a whole, it's a whole
Jed: you know, the three of us really have been working together for 20 some years now, um,
full-time. We've been through lots of ups and downs and lots of, uh, learned a lot along the way.
And . Really we, what we want to do with this is we want to break down the role of the
showrunner into little bite size pieces so that anyone who's thinking about doing it wants to do it
has.
Ambitions to do it, can step into it with a little more knowledge and, you know, have it, uh,
demystified a little better so that it, it isn't such a, hard thing to figure out what, you know, get
your arms around.
Stacy: If you work in television, you're either going to be a showrunner one day or you're gonna
work with a showrunner if you're gonna work in TV at all. A showrunner is gonna be an important
part of your life, like a super important part of your life. So just knowing whether it's something
you aspire to be because you're a.
Or a creator, or whether it's something you have no interest in doing. You know, maybe you're a
line producer and you're never gonna be a showrunner, but you're gonna work with them all the

time.
Drew: In between the three of us, we've, you know, we write, we direct, we produce, we've,
done a handful of movies and we kind of came into the TV world about six years ago from the
feature world. And so for us it was, Constantly trying to figure out the mystery of TV and how it
works and what is a showrunner and, you know, what are their responsibilities and who's got the
authority and, and all of those, you know, the puzzle of TV was kind of a mystery to us, um, not
that long ago.
And now we've done, you know, four seasons of TV and we're still figuring it out. But I think we,
we, have come to some conclusions and I think this show would be, you know, maybe helpful
for anyone that might be wanting to go down that.

Jed: well let's jump in. Like, you know, I think the place to start.
Stacy: Let's jump in.
Jed: You know, is what is a showrunner? you know, the, the term showrunner, it's not like an
official title. It's not like a director or a producer or the writer. Um, you know, showrunner's, kind
of this amorphous title that's, you know, more nickname than official role, but it's official in its
own way.
Stacy: The, the official title is Executive Producer, right? Ep. But there are gonna be a bunch of
those
Jed: Yeah. And often, you know, we have a show coming out next month that, you know, there's
EPS on it, we've never met, you know, or we're like, who's that guy? You know? Um, you know,
that's, and that's, and they have like prime real estate in the EP list. Uh,
Stacy: He probably like won it in a school auction, you know.
Jed: but yeah, it can be pretty mur.
Drew: Yeah. But there's really one, the showrunner, or there could be multiple show runners, but
there's someone that is one of the eps or a pair of eps that, you know, hold that mantle that
definitely have the creative authority and management responsibility of the show. You know,
above and beyond all other eps.
But like you said, John, I think it's like, it's kind of lead writer, lead director, lead producer of the
whole season. You know where there'll be episodic directors, of course, but there's one kind of
authority over the whole.
Jed: It's kind of like the central creative voice of a series. Um, and, and sometimes showrunners
created the show, sometimes they didn't. They're brought on to facilitate and, you know, uh,
make sure things go well. And, um, showrunners are the creative head of the show. whereas
Drew and I, you know, came up, you know, writing, directing, producing like independent movies
and then studio.
And so we came at it, you know, from the filmmaking side first, we didn't really come up the
ranks through the writer's room. Um, and so we, we kind of missed a lot of the education that
would come with that. And part of, part of the reason we want to do this is, you know, for our
own edification, you know, so that we can learn more about this.
Stacy: Hmm.

Drew: Yeah, I think us coming into TV from features too was kind of like, you know, we had to
ask ourselves that question like what, is the showrunner and what is the showrunner's
responsibilities and what, and really what we came away with, uh, you know, To relate it to the
feature world, I think would be, you know, very much the director and producer of the whole
thing.
And that's, um, there's a lot more, I used to think of showrunners as, you know, kind of head
writers and someone who is managing all the scripts, but there's a lot more of it, uh, you know,
producorial in nature I think, than I expected. You know, and a lot more, responsibility for
anything that goes wrong in any, casting drama, you have any, you know, network drama you
have, you kind of have to be at the forefront of. All of that, and that to me feels a lot more
Stacy: I think a lot of writers who maybe get stuck who maybe want to be showrunners but get
stuck in the writer's world. I think that might be the key, is that they think the job is more about
writing. Than it actually is, when really, at least in my estimation, I'm curious about what you
guys think.
I'd say writing is like a third of it, you know, and two thirds of it is production and actually, you
know, making the thing and the notes and the meetings and all that stuff, but just sort of hanging
out with your nerdy writer buddies in a room. Writing is, what do you think, a third? Does that
sound right?
Jed: third and a half. So somewhere in there. And, and you're right, it's, it's a funny thing cuz
like, I feel like a lot of showrunners come up the ranks writing, writing in, you know, rewrites is a
huge part of the job and, you know, manag. Writers, managing network studio producers, you
know, the management, the human management aspect is a huge part of it.
but it's an interesting thing like where writers come up through the writer's room and then
suddenly one day they're like, okay, now direct A, an entire series and there's almost this switch
has to flip. And you know, you have to. suddenly, you know, the showrunner essentially is
responsible for everything.
Or at least I, I feel like the, you know, I, I remember, uh, thinking of directors like, okay, a director
is responsible for everything. Anything that goes wrong. Like, the good directors take
responsibility for it all. Like, there's no, that wasn't my fault. You know, it's like if it's on the
screen, it's your fault, you know, good or bad.
and I think the showrun. is the responsible person, you know, the person, the studio network
producers, you know, are willing to put, you know, 50 million in their hands and say, bring us
something we can put on our network that we're gonna be excited about. you know, that's, you
know, what, what is the adage?
Uh, good scripts on time, you know, that's the primary role. But I think even more than that, it's,
Budgets on time, like, you know, schedules like direct, you know, the episodes on time, like just
all of it. There's so many facets to it.
Drew: Yeah, we'd like to say that if we're not the problem child, you know, that's a good place to
be. If they're not worried about our show, you know, let them worry about someone else's show.
That's usually our, you know, our goal is to, you know, for any studio exec or network exec,
they're gonna have, you know, 10 shows in, in production or whatever, and.
Um, there's gonna be a few that they're very concerned about and uh, and it starts with what
you just said. You know, the scripts on time, budgets on time. The more from the outset that
they're not worried about you, that, that feels very important to us. Um, cuz if you get flagged as
the problem child early, I think that, uh, is a very tough process.

Stacy: Drew, it's almost like, it's almost like, you know, what was it six years ago or whatever it
was when you guys had your first TV show, it would've been nice if somebody like knocked on
your trailer door and was like, hi, I'm from hr. I'm gonna give you like a brief overview of how this
is completely different, but also very similar to.
Film and what you're expected to do and how it works and who you're gonna be dealing with.
And nobody knocked on your trailer door. You just had to figure it out. You did a great job of it
cuz you get to keep, they keep letting you do it, you know, which is, which is a win. So I feel like
that's also what this podcast is.
It's like the knock on the trailer door going,
Drew: That's right. That's right. And I think our first season of TV we had a feature script that a
studio said, Hey, we love this. If you turn it into a tv, you know, show instead a limited series.
And so we went down the path of starting to, turn a, a feature idea feature screenplay, which
was, you know, thankfully very long.
So we had a lot of, uh, it was kind of two movies in one, but, uh, but we. Uh, you know, the
creative process of expanding it into episodes, but then when we flipped into, pre-production
and kind of getting in that zone, the studio and network we're like, okay, we need, you know, to
pair you with a, with, someone who's show run before.
And for us it was kinda like, well, we direct and produce, so why, you know, we can do that. You
know, but it was, TV is just such a different animal, you know, and it ultimately isn't all that
different. I think for your first time through it, having someone with some TV experience we felt
was very helpful.
Um, and we were still showrunning, but we had, a room full of people, you know, in our, in our
writer's room that were experienced TV people. And I think we learned so much on that season.
And, uh, and so yeah, I think this is, um, it's a very amorphous term and so I think it's helpful to
hear people blather on about it.
Jed: Well, and on that show too specifically, like they wanted someone to help us, you know,
move from movies to tv. And thank God, like I, you know, I, I personally was resistant to it, and it
was a lifesaver because, you know, there's so much about television that is actually different
than features that I didn't know about.
And, and he really, you know, uh, helped us through it. But there was, there was times where it
was like, okay, no. Nobody took that moment to say, This person's in charge or that person's in
charge, it was like, okay, who's in charge? Like, who's, who's responsible for this? And, and
there was some confusion on that.
I'd say one of the key skills, uh, for show running is having difficult conversations, just sitting
down, having the difficult conversation, figuring out like where things stand, um, with other
people and. and I, I think, I was a little remiss on, on that show, and, and it, it was, it was murky
where Yeah, like, stay said, the, the knock on the, on the door, like, Hey, this is your role.
Stacy: John, I think you brought up a really interesting point about like, just because you
created the show doesn't necessarily mean you get to be the showrunner. And at first I thought,
oh, well that's kind of offensive. You know, whoever creates it should be the the person who gets
to run it.
But no, no, I think it's fair that the producers and the studio and the network. They need to know
that they can actually trust you because you have actually done it before, like for example, My
brother's a writer as well, and he was working on a project called Jericho. And two fellas, a

writing team, came up the idea and they pitched it and they sold it, but they hadn't really had
experience with writing pilots.
So then my brother gets brought in to write the pilot, so now he's kind of the creator, right? But
no, no, because he had never run a show before he had, he came from film. He had never been
in a TV room, so he didn't run the show. A woman named Carol Barbie did. So that's a perfect
example of. You know, three different entities, four people and three entities created that show
and could all justifiably say like, no, I created that show.
Carol Barbie is the one who ran it. Why? Because she had run other shows before and they
could trust her. I had had a similar experience before. I was a writer, I was an actor and I was in
a, a comedy group and we, we were having some traction. We were very popular in New York
City and we signed with William Morris and they said, Hey, we're gonna bring you out to Los
Angeles and you're gonna perform and we're gonna invite a bunch of showrunners and.
And if one of them bites, you'll have a show. And we were very confused about this and, but, you
know, didn't wanna seem like idiots and be like talking about, so we talked to an executive we
had also been working with and we're like, okay, what is a showrunner? And he not very
helpfully said, oh, the showrunner, that's the big swing in D.
Except, you know, he didn't say D. And again, we just wanted to be cool. We were like, oh. Oh,
no, no. Completely makes perfect
Drew: Thanks for explaining.
Yeah.
Stacy: and D, and honestly, I went through the whole process, and by the way, we did the show,
none of the Big Swing and DS bit, nobody wanted to work on it, but we were so confused.
We were like, wait a minute, we're five women. We've been writing and putting comedy on
together for years. Like, we'll just write the show. Right? We'll just create the show and run the
show. seems hilarious that I ever thought that was possible of like, just gimme a chance. All
right. Sketch comedy, you know.
But, uh, and after decades of exp but at the time I really, truly did not understand like, well, if I'm
creating the show, why would I need somebody else to what? Hold my hand? What do they, I
don't understand.
Jed: you know, one of the things, uh, there's, um, the Writer's Guild has a showrunner training
camp or bootcamp. It's to get into it, you have to have a show that you're currently showrunning
in. In fact, they're, they've, because there's such a need for it, they're turning away people who
actually have a show.
And you know, to me, like I was, I was thinking like that's kind of like, you know, Giving someone
a driving manual once you're on the freeway. Like, here's how to drive. It's like when you're
show running, you don't have time to, oh, I'm gonna take a course now and come back in a
week when the scripts are new.
You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's at that point, it's too late. And, you know, I, I feel like there
should be more, more helpful resources for people who are hoping to do that, you know? You
know, considering, uh, you know, a career in writing or at whatever stage, like to know what,
what all is entailed and, and to make it, you know, demystified, it's, you know, it takes some
craft.
I feel like, you know, the, you know, the craft, you know, being able to write and rewrite and
manage tons and tons of notes and it takes, you know, some organization. Um, and frankly, it

takes the three of us. you know, the three of us all work in conjunction. We like to say we're like
a swarm of bees.
There's always one of us like buzzing around, you know. But we like, whenever there's two or
three of us in the same place, we're like, oh, something's, something's not happening. If the
three of us are hanging out together
Stacy: Wait, why are we doing a podcast? We don't. We don't have time for this. Who thought
this was a good
Drew: No, it's, no, you're absolutely right. I, it blows my mind that some people do this as one
human being. That someone can you show, run a show, and even maybe direct the first block or
the first episode, um, as a single individual is kind of mind blowing.
Um, but people do do it. And I think, it's a huge job and. The kind of job that you need, really
good support if you're doing it alone, for sure. Um, even if you're not doing it alone, you need
really good support. And, um, the human management element of it is just so massive and, you
know, the hiring and staffing element of it is so important.
And, uh, um, I think that's one thing we've learned over and over again, and we've been, you
know, pretty. Lucky in our staffing and have had really good, you know, supportive, you know,
strong number twos in our rooms and, uh, you know, strong line producers. But it really, um, the
human management side of it is extremely, um, a big part of it

Stacy: he, here's the thing, the job lasts. Forever. Like, um, I am not a showrunner, so I'm a
writer. So I often do projects with you guys where like at this point say there is a season of
television, Joe Pickett, season two. I haven't been in the room for Joe Pickett, season two. It's
been an entire year. Since the room ended, you know, I kept writing of course, but basically it
was like, but, and yet you guys, I think just finished post-production on that a week ago.
Do you know what I mean? So, 10 episodes of television that me as a writer and a co-producer,
Really put my heart and soul into it. Worked really hard, got super into it, loved the job, felt, you
know, invested in it. And yet my role in that ended in the room a year ago, you know, April. And
then even just being there, uh, as an onset supervisor and producer and, you know, writing
drafts.
That ended in August. It's, it's April again, you guys have been. The editorial and the sound
mixes and the color corrections and the meetings and the marketing, that's all showrunning too,
and it just
Drew: That's such an important point, Stacy. I love that. And you know, I think you think of notes
as a showrunner being, you know, script notes, creative, you know, casting, you know, things
involved in, in the early side of it. But you, you have to be prepared to, you know, Address notes
in editorial, of course, in the, in the cuts of the episodes.
But then in the visual effects and in the music and in the sound design and on stage, and it, it's
just layers and layers and layers of responding to notes. And again, that kind of comes down to
not, not just creative, but the human management of it in the, the executives you're working with
and, um, how forceful are the notes, how, you know, how much do you agree with them or
disagree with them.
Like ultimately, you know, you are creatively responsible for the show. So I think it, it's helpful to
re. notes that are additive and notes that really are helping the show versus notes that are kind
of for notes sake or, or might, might even be destructive to the show. And like identifying, you
know, not just the individuals and, and whose notes you trust, but I think also every, everyone

can have great notes and, and bad notes and I think, you know, being able to kind of decide
which notes to take and which ones not to, and knowing how to. Politely and delicately and
politically reject notes is a, is a real part of the job.
Jed: you can always make great changes with bad notes you know there, there's times
when notes are like, Hey, we want you to do this differently than what you really want to do. And
sometimes that hurts and sometimes that's painful and sometimes it's a lot of work.
And sometimes you had a scene or a moment or a, a character that you loved. And part of it is
just, you know, keeping your eyes on the horizon, not on the wave. You know, if you keep your
eyes on the wave, you're gonna get seasick if you keep your eyes on the horizon. You're able to
weather that storm in a different way and, uh, say like, okay, at the end of the day it is or it isn't.
This is a series or it's not a series. Um, and every, you know, picking little fights along the way,
um, won't help the objective of getting it done. You know, one, one thing, you know, speaking of,
uh, nautical references, I always like to think of the, the job of show running. You know, in a way
it's, it's almost like the Odyssey, you know?
It's like you're on a ship and you're going from island to island and every island has its
different customs. It's different problems. It's different issues. And the islands, they have
no like real connection with each other. It's like you're in the writer's room island and
then you go to the production island and then you're with the actor island, and then
you're in the post-production island and then you're, you know, in the Sound Island like,
and every one of these has its own kind of customs and problem.
And none of them talk to each other. So it's up to you to remember why things are the
way they are and what is essential and what isn't. Because you know, every island thinks
their island is the entire world. You know, every department, you know, the, you know,
costume designer sees the entire show through the lens of costume designs only, and
you know the great ones.
See more than that and see story and you know, do everything based on story and. You
know, typically every department thinks the whole world is just that one department and
it's up to you, you know, to keep track of what's necessary. Otherwise, just this drift sets
in and this thing that could have been great slowly just becomes muddy.
Um, and I think one of the keys too is like having argonauts, having, having people, you.
To keep you from, you know, steering the ship into the, you know, sirens when, when the
sirens becken, you know what I mean? Like, people you trust around you and, you know, I, I
feel like the three of us are each other's Argonauts and, you know, we work together and we sort
of keep each other, um, sane.
And there's a lot of moments where you question. Hey, uh, you know, am I the crazy one in this
situation? Sometimes, you know, I am and sometimes I'm not. And it's helpful for me to have the
two of you, you know, talking me through, you know, which is which. And I, I feel like this is a job
where you need partners.
It's too much work. It's an impossible job. It's too much work for one person. Uh, you know, it's
too much work for three people. Like we work very hard on a show. Um, it's critical to have
people you trust and, you know, you can rely on, um, to help walk through, you know, go from
island to island with you and help you, you know, find that consist.
Stacy: I feel like a showrunner might be the only, tell me if I'm wrong, you guys would know
better than I do, but I feel like a showrunner might be the only position. Where you have to zoom
into the ultra. Like picture cars, like what kind of trucks should we have in the parking lot and
you know, what kind of shoe should this character wear?

And, you know, and a character that shows up and says one line that you zoom in and you're
actually a part of that decision making. But then you have to zoom out and see all the big stuff
like, you know, how it looks in the end, uh, how much it costs, uh, you know, marketing, all the,
just, just the final product of the final big TV show.
Like I. Network execs and studio and you know, studio execs and producers, they're part of the
big picture for sure. They're looking at all that big picture stuff, but they don't ever have to, or
they don't generally tend to zoom in on this super. They're not gonna sit in on a picture card
meeting and decide whether it's gonna be a Ford or a Chevy.
You know what I mean? Um, and then you have other people like, you know, the line producer
who might be in it for that Ford and Chevy conversation. And the big picture of like the budget
for the whole thing cuz money. Everything Right. but they at some point, step away from the big
picture. Can you think, are you guys, are, are showrunners the only ones who are that micro
and that macro and who, like you said, John, go from island to island, but you know, also have
the map.
Is that, is that the only job that does that?
Jed: I mean, directing in a way, you know, in features directing, you know, does that to some
extent. But I, I feel like, yeah, show running is essentially directing, producing and writing in, in
different, you know, different forms. And, and you're right, you have to go to the very specific,
like, would this character say this line or not, you know?
And. Like zooming out, like, okay, we, you know, this major location fell through. What do we
do? Do we rewrite the sequence? Do we, um, you know, or this actor showed up and they're
crazy. You know, like, how do we give some of that real estate that we were planning on to
another ca Like there's all these like little subtle recalibrations that, You have to clock, clock and
you know, or this,
Stacy: just keep cutting to the back of their head and put all this ADR in there.
Jed: yeah. Or you know, conversely, like someone shows up and you're like, oh, that person's
amazing. They're so, they have like,
Stacy: Yeah,
Jed: crusher.
Like how do we give them more real estate? Um, so there's the con, you know, the inverse of
that too.
Stacy: I mean, that's only in production though. Then there's post, which, you know, not to, to
say it again, but post lasts forever. Like you guys, you were saying a director is also that kind of
micro, macro, position, but how long does a television director say somebody directs, you know,
a block?
They direct episodes one and two. It's done. How long do they have before they turn their cut in.
And how long do they get? How
Drew: then four days
Stacy: Four days per episode.
Drew: they're es essentially gone, you know, so I do think, you know, your reference to, you
know, directing being similar, I think that's very much feature directing, being similar, kind of like

from green light to the moment it's in, you know, on screen, uh, that entire timeline.
You are responsible for every decision. Like that's, that's similar to feature directing, but, uh, but
yeah, not the director and TV is not around.
Stacy: Four days per episode. That
Jed: Well, just, just to give context too, as a feature director, w you know, per Director's Guild,
uh, contract, you have 10 weeks. You have 10 weeks to come up with your director's cut, you
know, for a tv. Uh, director, you have four days. So 10 weeks to four days. And, and essentially,
you know, when you're directing a feature or producing a feature, you essentially have the same
amount of time as doing a, a season of television, but a season of television might be, you
know, 10 hours to do, you know, what you would do, you know, an hour and a half worth of
content versus 10 hours of content.
Like it's a very Different pace and it's a very different, and you know, when Drew and I came
into, uh, TV from features, we tried to play the game the same way as features where it's like
you just torture every little detail. And it made us crazy. And we've had to slowly learn to, to treat
it more like an improv game versus a composition It's all
jazz.
We, we say that a lot. It's jazz. Like, let's just see what happens. Uh, and, uh, it, you know, it, it
does, it, it forces you to be in the moment more, you know, you, you can't, you don't have 10
weeks to like torture. Every cut in your director's cut, you know, you have, you have to stick and
keep moving.
Drew: And back to what you were saying, Stacy, is just like the micro macro element. Like
another, I think, uh, I think it's important to say about a showrunner is, I mean, you are.
Responsible from green light, tell them show airs. You know? And over that period of time, you
know, like you're saying, John, like from Island, island, island, you are responsible, but you also
have studio partners, and you also have network partners, and they have thoughts along the
way.
But those people often change over the course of that year and a half, two years. You know, it's,
it's, it's shocking to us every, every
literally change.
Stacy: Like they leave the job or
Drew: they get fired.
Stacy: So we've had whole, whole company's close where we're literally working with a
company on a project. And guess what? The project still exists. The TV show still exists, but the
company that was making it does not like that's happened to you
Drew: I know
we've had a whole studio file bankruptcy in the middle of post on a show and, you know, so it's,
it's wild. But like, just, you know, and you can take those opinions and I guess my point is that,
you know, we work for the show. Like you, we are the only ones that are like, Singularly
dedicated to just this show and that is who we serve is this entity that is the show.
And, um, as much as we have to

Stacy: mm.
Drew: notes and take notes and be collaborative and, we always know that there's a very good
chance that, you know, If we feel like something's, you know, creative is being kind of forced
upon us or really pushed, you know, that there's a chance that the person pushing it isn't around
in six months and we still are working on this show and, uh, and not saying we should treat
everyone like they're not gonna be around.
I think you have to treat everyone with the, as you know, the benefit of the doubt that they will
be. There for the end, but we always have that in the back of our minds that like, is this in
service of the show? Or is this, uh, a budgetary note? Is this, uh, you know, is there a motive
that's kind of beyond what's best for the show?
And I think we have to, you know, distill everything down to, what will make this a better viewing
experience for the audience? And that, that's, I think, the overriding, uh, you know, dictate for us.
And just always keeping that in perspective, that the people change.
You know, they might have a really strong opinion throughout the entire show and then prove
they're gone and they work for a different studio and they don't care at all. You know, so nobody
cares as much as you do, you know?
Jed: Yeah. I love that. It,
I think a lot of people think of, you know, directors or showrunners as like the, the head, you
know, the, the leader, the helmer or whatever. But it's, you know, in a way like it's the most loyal
servant of the show.
And to serve the show and to serve the audience who you, you know, think will like a show to
serve that and to let that, you know, you don't want to alienate your partners along the way and
that's, you know, it's really important not to. Yeah. But the idea of like, that, that's what you serve
at the end of the day.
And, and it's important to, to not just take every note because you wanna please everyone, you
know, to take notes that make sense for the show and try and articulate why other notes did or
didn't work. Like Drew and I and Stacy and I like, we tend to try every. We, you know, we don't
like, you know, an editorial in the script.
Like, we try everything and then we look at it and we're like, does this make things better or not?
And if it doesn't, we, you know, have the courage to take that out and explain, you know, be able
to explain, oh, this slowed the scene down and that, you know, we felt like that really hurt the
momentum. Um, we'll find another place to get, you know, this moment.
Uh, or whatever it is. You know, it's, I think, more than anything. So much of this job is just
listening and, and communicating and trying to connect with people, whether that's writers or
actors or crew or studio or network, like just trying to be a human being. You know, where we're
all, you know, everyone's trying to make a great show, like nobody sets out to make a crappy
show.
And you know, execs are scared that they'll give notes that break the show. Writers are scared
that they'll break the show if they take notes, like, and, and it won't, you know, the show won't
break, but I, I think, you know, again, keeping your eyes on the horizon, you know, the long term
instead of every little detail can be really helpful.

Stacy: I would like to articulate a point that seems obvious to us, but might be worth saying.
Cause one thing we talked about before, you know, starting this podcast is who is it for? And

we'd really like it to be informative and interesting to say, you know, somebody who's been in a
writer's room for a long time and wants to make the step up to showrunner.
But we also want it to be interesting and informative to that you. 16 year old in the middle of the
country who dreams about maybe being a professional writer and maybe studying it in college,
but hasn't even, you know, gone down the road. Just loves tv. So we'd, we'd like it to be
interesting to all those people.
So for the, um, less experienced listener, I would like to articulate the point that the showrunner
is the boss. Of a whole lot of people, you know, they, they, if they come in and say, I want the
shoes to be red, well then the shoes will be red. Or, you know, I want it to look like this. Like if
they, they are the boss.
And not that you would ever act that way. You wouldn't act like a big old boss jerk. But you know,
your word is the most important word to almost everyone in the whole experience. But you
yourself have a boss, and those bosses are the people, the execs, you know. Producers, the
studio execs and the network execs, cuz that's the triple, the triple sandwich.
Right? I didn't miss anything, did I? Um, when they give you notes now you might not feel, they
might not feel like your boss. You might feel like peers, but they, you generally, you are the
person giving notes to everyone else and then the execs give notes to you. You know, and you
and I have to say, you guys are sort of talking like, you know, you have to decide when to say no
to the notes.
I think you two are. You know, within the business, not, not world famous for being so good
about notes, for being so collaborative. And generally I can't tell you cuz obviously I get your
private experience of things. I hear you privately say all the time that exec is so smart, they give
such great notes.
It is rare that you now, when you, when you, you build up a lot of goodwill because you see how
these people saying, Hey, can we change this? Can we change that? For the most part, you
guys are like, great idea. That sounds awesome. Let's do it. And you're gonna try it no matter
what. However, as you said, you might try something and then decide, guess.
We tried it, we're communicating to you that it did not work, and here's why. did you, I, I saw
your face change a little when I was like, you're the boss of many
Drew: No, that's right. That's no, no,
Jed: no. Froze up a little.
Drew: Yeah. I just was,
Stacy: Oh, it froze up a little. I thought you were
Drew: no,
Jed: no, no, no,
Drew: we all have to serve someone, you know? And, uh, and certainly, you know, the network
is ultimately the boss of, uh, the entire show all the time. And that, that's helpful to keep in mind.
And I think what you said is absolutely correct in that, you know, there's nothing I'd say more
valuable for a show than having an. At the studio or network level, either one that is just dialed
into what makes this show great and it proves early that their notes are really smart and they
absolutely get what you're trying to do. And they keep you honest. They tell you when you've
taken something too far, they, you know, we've had execs along the way that are like, oh my

God, I totally trust their creative opinion.
And it's like this safety net that you have throughout the show. And, um, I
think that's an extremely. Underappreciated, uh, figure on every show. And, and not every show
has that, you know, sometimes you end up in a situation where it feels like all the notes are just,
uh, disconnected from what you're trying to do, and that can happen too.
Uh, but having that great exec with really good notes that knows exactly what you're doing, uh,
and trying to accomplish is so helpful. Um, it really, it's like your first line of defense, your first
critic, you know, your first. the, you know, before you, you know, go to the firing squad of like
releasing a show, you know, it's helpful to take some, take some shots along the way and, you
know, repair yourself and, and put out the best thing you can.
Stacy: They, they can see things clearly that you can't because you. you're creating, you know,
you get, it's daydreamy, you get into it and you know, you can't be in it and creating and be
outside of it and just coldly analyzing. All the time. I mean, you do that as a writer all the time,
but at some point you kind of, you need somebody who see, you know, you're in a trance and
they are not.
And they can sometimes be like, Hey, you know how, for example, uh uh, With Joe Pickett, we
were getting really into this thing and he's, Michael Doman is such a wonderful actor, and the
character that CJ Box created such a wonderful character. We sort of gotten into this dreamy
trance of like, how far can we push this guy?
And we were pitching this whole plot, to be honest, where he sort of like commits Coldblooded
murder at, you know, and we were into it. It was cool cuz Michael Dorma would've acted the shit
out of it, you know? And it was one, it was, you know, one of the network execs who was like,
hmm. I notice that your wonderful hero is a cold-blooded murderer.
we, maybe not so much with the hero be, does it? Does everything have to be breaking bad?
You know, I can't remember how she phrased it, but it was like, oh, you know
Drew: and knowing you have that, you know, kind of safety net, uh, for lack of a better term, but
like allows you to try, you know, bold things. And I think it's really refreshing to try bold things,
knowing they'll tell you if you took it too far and, you know, someone will raise their hand and
say, Hey, maybe, maybe not on that.
And uh, um, you know, that I think makes the more.
Stacy: and just as often they'll
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: We love it.
Drew: If you're approaching every draft, uh, a first draft that you're presenting from a, you know,
defensive posture, if you're kind of in a situation with a studio network where you feel like you've
been attacked and you're kind of, you know, bracing for impact every time, I think that that's not
great for the creative process, in my opinion, to kind of feel like you can't take chances cuz
you've been.
Burned before or hurt before and, and then, you know, um, it really is great when you end up in
situations with executives that let you try things and, you know, know that, we can take notes
and we can revise things and we can take out that story point that you don't like. And like all, all
of it is malleable until, until, it's a lot to cut.

And, uh, and the executives that get that I think, um, are really great in. You know, sometimes it
has to try things before it lands to, you know, in its final resting place.
Jed: Yeah, it's true. Like great execs can, you know, kind of be your argonauts too. Like
oftentimes they are the people who are. You know, from the first pitch to the, you know, to the
release. Some, sometimes they're not. Sometimes, you know, we've, Yeah. Had shows where
there's execs from, you know, Joe Pickett who are now at like 10 different, uh, studios and
networks and, um, and thankfully like we got along with everyone really well, you know, and now
we, you know, have people that we know and love at, you know, a whole bunch of different
studios and networks.
That's been really helpful. But, you know, I remember, uh, when we, we did a movie called the
Poughkeepsie Tapes. The three of us, uh, worked on that. And when we were deep in post, it's
like we were just editing it, you know, ourselves. And I remember at that time being like, oh, I
wish we had just some smart people we could show this to, who would give us their, you know,
unbiased opinions.
Like, I just, I wish,
Stacy: because it was in Indie, right? There was no studio.
Jed: it was us.
Drew: Yeah.
Stacy: just,
Jed: Yeah. And the three of us,
three of us like, looks good to me, you know? Um, yeah. Like, but will anyone else like this, like
it, it is just helpful sometimes getting a bunch of smart people watch it, give you honest
feedback, um, and that managing that, you know, both sides of that, you know, both the good
and the bad sides of that is such a critical part of this job.
Uh, the Chihuahua. Hang on. Cut.
Stacy: Can anyone hear our chihuahua? The Chihuahua and the
Jed: out. Time out. I'm gonna go stopper.

Jed: part of what we want this podcast to be is a demystification. All the facets that go into show
running and, you know, learning, um, for ourselves, you know, we'll be learning alongside you.
But like, you know, talking to, everyone from line producers to sound designers, like what have
they found helpful with showrunners and what if they had not found helpful?
And, and just sort of talking through every, every aspect of this all the way down the, down the.
Stacy: So in the future, we wanna bring other people into our conversation, like John said, line
producers. Uh, I forget composers, you know, actors.
Drew: Yeah. Casting directors. Like, like the, the, the metaphor you made
Yeah.

Stacy: Not
Drew: made earlier about, you know, the Odyssey and the, you know, people from every one of
those islands coming in to talk about, you know, what their experience of working with
showrunners might be and what they found effective and what they found destructive and, and
those kind of, those kind of conversations.
Stacy: We talked about what, what showrunners wish every actor knew. That was another topic
I'm very excited to talk about. I think that'll be super interesting to actors to hear. Um, but
probably it'd be fun to ask as well, like, what every costume designer wish showrunners knew.
You know, we can, we can do it both ways.
Jed: Like almost like a guidebook of, uh, hey, if you go to this village, this is the thing to look out
for. This is the thing, you know, this is a great place to eat and this is the place to, you know, a
hotel to avoid, you know, um, you know, just sort of give a little bit of a roadmap. So, you know,
as you step into this, Uh, or consider stepping into this role.
You, you, you just know the, the customs and the language a little, you know, a little better every
step of the way.
Stacy: No one should ever be afraid to become a show. they've never been to a sound mix and
don't wanna be embarrassed in front of other people. Do you know what I mean? Like there's
not, there's all, like you said, all these little islands, a creative and intelligent person who wants
to have this job shouldn't be afraid to take it on or unable to take it on because there's just one
or two little aspects that somehow they have never experienced.
So we can just yap at them about that and then, you know, they'll be a pro.
Drew: Thanks for listening everyone.
Jed: thanks for listening.
Stacy: Thanks for listening. Goodbye.