This Transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors
Stacy:
Yeah. Yep. Yep. This would be like kind of a fifties thing, but like a 1950s thing by way of the
1970s, like Linda Ronstad were doing this or something. Okay.
I'm hoping there will be a little rock sax right at the end. Writing is exciting, but so is running a
show.
Runny, runny, runny, runny. You can be the boss if you're the runner of a TV show. Bossy.
Bossy, bossy, bossy. And that's why our podcast is called The Showrunner Show.
Ken: Oh yeah, that was
great.
Stacy: is the Sax Solo
John: and then Sax solo. All right, well done. Welcome to
Ken: I love that.
John: where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of show running. For anyone who
works in tv, who wants to work in TV or just wants to know how it's all made, I'm John Eric Dole.
Stacy: I am Stacey Saboski, and we are here with our wonderful guest for week two with Ken
Sgna
John: Yay.
Stacy: Ken
Ken: Senya.
Stacy: Yeah. Yeah.
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
John: like I'm sure you've, you know, you've had your sample size of, you know, showrunners is
like far greater than like any showrunner.
You just know what you do, but you don't really get a chance to see how other
Ken: Totally.
John: So,
Ken: Yeah.
John: wanted to just ask, like, you know, of like, what are, what do you think makes a great
showrunning partner?
Ken: Oh man. I mean, first off, I find the job of showrunner kind of like an impossible thing for a
single human to do.

Like it's, and it's kind of then wrestling with, you know, how are you setting things up?
John: Mm
Ken: know,
John: Mm
Ken: setting the person and the show up for success, um, because it is so many different
There's so many different hats to wear in one role um, and I don't think I've met anyone who is
Good at every single facet of it.
I think that's not a real thing that someone could probably do and Maybe there's somebody out
there, but you know, it's like yeah, everyone has their strengths and the things where They are
going to look for help and support and that I think kind of going back to what we talked about
last time, you know Helping kind of build a team, you know, that is going to you have, you know,
kind of person that's really the showrunner But like is going to help support in the right way and
so I think like The definitely the three things that I'm always like Especially when I was on the
network side, but I mean also on the studio side just kind of as you're putting it together the
things that I would always look for like One is vision and voice You know so that you kind of like
and on the network side especially I would always talk about like Do you have that North Star
like when you're in the pitch?
Do you have kind of the North Star of the story they're telling or like another way to put it would
be like I always like By the end of a first episode, or even in a pitch, and just talking with
somebody about the show and the story they want to tell. Almost feeling like, alright, you've just
pointed out the top of that mountain.
And I know we're going to the top of that mountain. I have no idea what it's going to look like
when we get up there. And I have no idea how we're going to get there. But at least I'm always
directed in one way. And so I kind of get what ride I'm on. And it's so easy. Um, I think to lose
sight of, you know, kind of that North Star amid everything in a show, you want to see that
somebody has a vision, has a voice, has kind of that center, um, to constantly be reminding.
So it's like vision voice, team building, and, you know, really, I think thoughtfully putting together
the group that is going to make a show, um, and the support around them. And then,
decisiveness. I think, like, if you have, like, if you've got the vision, and you've got the right team,
and you can move fast, like, there's kind of no stopping you.
Um,
it's just
John: hmm.
Ken: easy to say, but just
get all those things. It's like, you know, it's very hard. Um, and then, even then, I think you just,
like, to make a successful show, it's like, you gotta do all that stuff, and then you gotta have a
little luck in terms of the timing and all of it. Um, so...
John: Yeah.
Ken: know, that's, yeah, I think that the fun part, but the maddening part of it all.
John: Yeah. That's it. Well, I, I would even say the luck, like, you know, often like, you know, you
don't know like the actors in a way, like where are they at in their lives is one of the actors going

through a divorce or has
Ken: Oh my gosh, yeah.
John: habit over COVID
Stacy: Mm.
Ken: Mm hmm
John: Like there's so much luck or, you know, this actor were worried about and they show up
like just crushing, you know what I mean?
It's there's, there's so many. I don't know, just so many, uh, variables in everything, or
Ken: Yeah, I
John: something bigger or something smaller or whatever, you know, you just never know.
Ken: actually, I want to like totally steal that and revise my answer
and add a fourth one
John: uh
Ken: Which is like being, yeah, being nimble, frankly, because I feel like
everything that you're
talking about It's like, and that's where I think like the vision of the team become And the size of
this become important because you're like, yeah, you were gonna You're gonna be up against it.
It's like that I always get this quote wrong, but that you know The general that said like the first
casualty of the battlefield is the battle plan, you know You kind of
like
John: love
Ken: go in with the plan and team and then it's just like immediately gonna get thrown out the
window but at least you know what you're trying to do
and then you have to like kind of pivot within that and to your point about Actors, production
issues that crop up, like, just all the stuff that there's no way you would have known was going to
come.
I feel like you set yourself up to, to tackle that stuff if you got kind of like that foundation.
And, you know, you just roll with those punches from there.
John: I got to say, you know what I find really interesting and a little surprising in your list you
don't have, uh, or works well with others. You know what I mean? That, that seems to be,
Ken: Oh, I, I guess,
John: or, you know what I mean? The,

Ken: Yeah, team building I think is like, in my mind, captures that, because I think it's
like, if you are good at team building,
It's like you have to, A, know other people's strengths, and you also have to know your own
strengths and weaknesses,
Stacy: Mm.
Ken: you got to be able to communicate those. Like, so, I guess, yeah, I'm like, that's a little of a
catch all for that, because a hundred percent, like,
John: Yeah.
Ken: don't think you can have a team if you don't, like, for real, like, if you don't have everything
you were just saying.
being, I think, a good manager, a good leader,
John: Yeah.
Ken: You gotta, yeah, you gotta have that. Otherwise, you know, it's not, it's not an effective
team. That's for sure.
John: Yeah, that's interesting. It's like, you know, when you're like, you know, in life dating
someone and you realize like, Oh, this person doesn't have a single friend, you know, that
they've had for more than like two months. Like,
Ken: Right, you're Like huh.
John: you're like, huh, that's, uh, whereas yeah, people who show up with a team.
Yeah. I have to, um, you know, You know, have you, have you experienced, like, what do you do
when somebody shows up and they're convinced that they're amazing? Like, I once had
somebody, like, we were giving notes, you know, on a, on a script. And so person was yelling at
Drew and I, while saying how collaborative, how open to notes they are.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: like, literally
Stacy: the most collaborative! you
John: the
Stacy: dicks.
John: We're like, hey, you know. Um.
Ken: Yeah, all right, all
right.
John: It's like, you know, when someone shows up saying like, I am the most honest person I've
ever, you know,

Stacy: You're like, why did you mention that?
Ken: yeah. yeah, like interesting that?
you felt you needed to really get that out there. All
right, noted.
John: like, how do
Stacy: Mm.
Ken: Yeah. Well, I mean not even a showrunner. I think like kind of anyone
in any facet and I think that goes for like actors I think it goes for directors. I think it goes for
executives. I think it's
like We're all I mean, I think what Like entertainment is very interesting and storytelling is very
interesting for a lot of reasons but I think like making the things that we make you at once have
to be very vulnerable and like Be very compassionate with people, I think, but then also
everything we do involves conflict and you know, and so like finding ways to You know have
difficult conversations But hopefully in the best version of it recognize like, all right We're gonna
talk about something that I know you are not gonna want to talk about and I don't want to talk
about in Some cases or like, you know, or if it's like the you know, kind of the what you're
describing where somebody is very, very sure about their point of view.
Um, you know, one thing that was helpful to me early on as an executive is, you know, the guys
that I worked for at Starz. I think we're... Very generous with advice, and then on top of that, you
know, One, one, um, I remember someone telling me basically, anyone who tells you that they
know what's gonna work, like, they're full of shit.
Like, you can have your best guesses, you can do everything you're gonna do, but like, there is
a certain degree of you just don't know, you know? And, um, you, you make the best calls and
make the best product, but, you know, at a certain point, the audience is gonna judge. And, um,
And that was very freeing as, you know, kind of a young executive to know, like, alright, there is
no definitive right answer.
And I think, you know, kind of coming along with that was, instilled in me early was, you know,
the mentality of tiebreak goes to the showrunner. And I think, like, there are a couple things in
that, that I, you know, especially as I've gone along, I've realized are really important. And one
is... One of the most important things that you can do is bet on the right people and assemble
the right team.
Um, cause you cannot, like, I am not a writer, and I am not a director, and like, I'm certainly not
an actor. And like, so you like, kind of can't, you can't do these jobs for people, right? And
so all you can do is like, find the people that you really believe. have the voice, have the vision,
have like, the ability to shepherd this, and then support them and try to help give them guidance
and feedback, but a lot of the time, like, yeah, there is no right answer.
And so, like, I may be super certain that my point of view is the right one, whatever that means.
They're super certain that their point of view is right.
Honestly, I don't know. And, like, all I can do is try to say, consider this as you're going through it.
And I think, you know, having that stance, if you really follow through on it and you're honest
about it, Um, I think over time, even with somebody that is kind of in that stance, um, Develops,

hopefully, trust that you're willing to back them for something that is super important.
And then, frankly, have the really hard conversations about things when you're like, I really do
think this is important for us to think about.
And, um, Again, it's different for every person. Different people are going to hear things in
different ways. I worked with showrunners that really have to, I would have to be very mindful of,
and I try to, like, anyone that, you know, is coming up in the business that, you know, is learning
to develop their feedback skills, um, you know, I try to, like, tell them, you know, think about...
Working on something that is so near and dear to you for a very long time and then like and very
personal to you And then just like putting it out for everyone especially in a non finished way to
be like, please love this you
know and like have people be like cool, but like here's all the things that are wrong with it and it's
like I think easy on the executive side to just try to get to a solution to a problem and Forget that
there are a lot of emotions wrapped up in it
and a lot of pieces that you know yeah, are like very close to someone
and
and so I've worked with people where it's
John: a lot of self worth,
Ken: 100 percent
John: for writers, like, you know, please tell me I'm a good writer. You know what
Stacy: Mm.
John: that's wrapped up in that too.
Ken: oh 100 percent especially again in a space in a world where there is no definitive answer
And this is gonna be kind of this gray area, and you don't know, you know, even in the best case
scenario, when you put it out, how it's gonna do, that's a really vulnerable place, so it's, you
know, I think, I've worked with writers where, you know, you really do need to remember and
respect the fact that it's like, there's a lot of thought and energy and emotion that's gone into
this, and
like, really point out that you actually do, there are the things that you really love about it, and to
me, I think there's like, you know, I heard like the compliment sandwich thing,
which I think, If you know it's happening to you, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, let's get to the
meat, please,
um, but But
I think you have to be genuine about the bread,
you
know, like and
Stacy: it. It

Ken: yeah, yeah,
Stacy: off
Ken: just like yeah Yeah, exactly Right. we, love that Yeah. How do we
John: don't mention it, it's, uh, it means it works. You know what I mean? And sometimes like
over the course of the notes process on that show, we pull something out to make room for
something else. And they'd be like, well, why'd you get rid of that?
Like, yeah. And we're like, well, if you never tell us the things that you feel are working.
Stacy: Yeah.
John: that's, as helpful. Yeah. It's as helpful
Ken: Totally.
John: you know, as
Stacy: Right. Right. Right. Hmm.
John: know the,
Ken: Yeah Mm
John: the, network feel are really successful and the things that aren't, because then you can
be like, oh, they really like this kind of a thing.
We can
Ken: hmm
John: this direction. just negative only does it like only
Ken: is not yeah,
John: yeah, you can only steer the car one direction. You know what
Ken: Yeah, exactly
John: get everywhere, but you're gonna like loop around a lot,
Ken: Yeah, and I think I mean, that's so true I think even more so in the beginning of a show
when like, you know, cuz I worked Primarily on shows that have gone straight to series and so
it's like you don't even have the benefit In that case, like, there are definitely the pros of why
that's done, and I think certain shows where it's like, 100 percent the right way to do it.
There are other times where it's like, ah, like, if only we could see the prototype and then like,
kind of take all those lessons, improve it, and then go and do the whole thing.
And, when you're building it as you, go, Mm hmm. No,
no, no.

Stacy: sure what you mean, I guess. Are you talking about, if something, me about something
that goes straight to series and tell me about something that doesn't go straight to
Ken: Oh,
Stacy: talking
Ken: ye
Stacy: a pilot and
Ken: Yeah, so we're in presentation.
Stacy: cool.
Ken: Yeah, so,
you know, there's, Mm hmm.
Stacy: pilot script and a series order or if, you know,
Ken: no, 100%, like, actually shooting something, to your point about, like, you know, the totally
intangible aspect of, like, the actors
and the chemistry. Like, some of my favorite comedic shows, the first season's, like, a little rocky

until, or the beginning of the first season is a little rocky until you can see the writers figured out,
oh, here's the chemistry, here's what this actor is
great at, and, like, lean into it, and, like, and then you find your rhythm.
So, like, 100 percent what you're saying, you know, as valuable as, like, here's the things to
note. Also, this is fucking great. This person is great at that. That's really funny. Like, you know, I
think
you're helping kind of, yeah, make sure that you keep all the great stuff and improve the stuff
that needs improving.
Um,
but it's easy, I think, to forget that. Um, and then I've also worked with showrunners where it's
like, kind of, it's the rare case, I would say, but it is, you know, like, alright, yeah, let's just get
straight to the... Tell me, tell me, like, what the feedback is, and, you know, don't want to spend
time on the other stuff.
Um,
and you just have to know, like, how do people, it only comes from working with people, how,
what is their best way of talking about it, discussing, you know, some people, like, really want to
get into it and have, like, you know, the hour and a half, two hour phone call about, like, and
unpack it, and then
other people are like, give me all the notes, I'm gonna go think about it, and then we'll talk again.
And, mm

hmm.
Stacy: second one. I thought everyone just sort of went like, great, great. Good to know. And
there's always
Ken: Yeah,
Stacy: if you ever need clarity, just give us a holler, you know,
Ken: that, I mean, I'd say that's
most of the time.
Stacy: for 90 minutes.
Ken: Yeah,
I mean, it depends. It's, again, it's like, it's different. Every culture on every show that I've
been a part of has been very different, you know,
and you know, I think I've loved both processes in different ways and hated both processes in
different ways.
You know, I
think sometimes having that Collaborative conversation is totally the right move
other times. It's kind of like feels like almost, you know Yeah, like not productive. Um,
Stacy: um.
Ken: and that I think you need to avoid and it's sometimes like I think that Especially depending
on how people engage or certain people that just kind of relate.
Mm hmm The whole way through the notes and you're like, wow do you hate all this or like it's
kind of the same thing on the other side where you're like Are my notes terrible? Like, what's
going on?
Stacy: Oh,
Ken: But like,
Stacy: even
Ken: want a little, little dialogue, you know?
Stacy: Yeah.
Ken: like, I Mm
Stacy: getting a note, you can see it right away. And then, so it
Ken: hmm.

Stacy: good feeling like, Oh, or Ooh, yeah. But a
Ken: Right.
Stacy: be fantastic. Even if you don't have an immediate, like, Oh, I see it right away. That
doesn't mean it's not a great
Ken: Right.
Stacy: but I
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: it being a reaction of like, I hadn't
Ken: Right.
Stacy: it's sort of like when, uh, when John proposed to me and you know, it was a little bit of a
fumble and I was like, huh.
and then
then
John: she was working. I had the ring for too long. I finally was like, Oh, fuck it. I'm just going to
do it. And
Ken: Just going.
John: on a knee and she was like doing her day job. And
Stacy: my day job, copywriting,
Ken: going on?
Stacy: chapstick is, yeah.
John: not here.
Um,
Ken: no, come back. We'll
rediscuss.
Stacy: he was like, well, I was nervous. And I was like, oh my God, it literally never even
occurred to me how you feel about this
John: yeah,
Ken: Oh yeah,
Stacy: like, I have a vision of how this is going to go for me. Like, that's the first
Ken: Mm hmm.

Stacy: would
Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: Self conscious about my reaction to their notes? What?
Ken: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Stacy: to me.
Ken: yeah. I mean, it's because it's like, it's, I think the best versions of it are like a dialogue
where you're like, again, you're the vision. I'm just like here to give you helpful feedback
because I
think it's like, interesting, like, you know, coming again from, um, you know, a background where
like I have a lot of friends who are more like code and things like that.
There is very much like kind of, I mean. It's I think a very loaded phrase now like the Facebook
move fast and break things You know that I think there are the bad things that come along with
that, but I think there's also the like iterate quickly, you know
and get feedback and to a certain degree The only part of the process that we can really really
really do that on is the script writing stage you know where you can actually move fairly quickly
get feedback at a low cost way and
Once you're actually out shooting it, it's like you can do it, it's just way more expensive, and it's
harder, and it's more like shipping a product, you know, where you're like, We're gonna get this
out into the world, and then by the time we get that feedback, it's like, well, we can't go, you
know, actually just redo season one, to like,
address, you know, like, the audience feedback, you know, I mean, you know, not, not that that's
how you exactly always should be doing it, but it's just more like, Inputs and like how, yeah,
getting kind of like responses, you know,
and some of them are gonna be helpful and some of them are really not and
so on this side, it's like, how do you be the helpful version, you know, and try not to fight what
you're doing and I think like that is where I would always think about it, especially on the buying
side where you maybe have not been in all the conversations leading up to the moment in the
room where the pitch is happening.
This is kind of the iceberg, you know, you're like
seeing this part and it's, There's all the stuff that has gone into everything leading up to that
moment, and I think it's easy to forget that. It's also like, you know, you're trying to get a lot of
information out of a very short conversation, basically, and I've seen it be where you think that
you're pulling in the same direction, but actually you get a little further apart, and you're like,
Wait a second.
How'd you guys get over there? And how'd you get over there? You know, it looked like we were
like trending in the same direction on the show. That everyone wanted to make, but if you
haven't had the, like, the real conversations up front, like, that's, I think, where you get conflict.
Um, so, it's very much, like, yeah, really drilling into what is gonna work for us on the network
side.
What is the vision that we want to sell and make on, you know, the creative side? And how do
you get those two things as close together as

possible?
No! What's that?
Stacy: Have we already talked about this on the podcast?
John: Oh,
Stacy: Have we talked about this?
John: a little
Stacy: Oh, am I too far away?
John: Yeah.
Stacy: funny to fail. And forgive me if we've already talked about this on the podcast. I can't
remember. It's just this hilarious documentary about the making of the Dana Carvey show.
Dana Carvey was like the
Ken: Oh no, I have not seen this,
Stacy: the biggest guys on SNL. And then he had his own comedy show and it was, it was
Ken: mm hmm,
Stacy: had Home Improvement because
they came right after Home Improvement.
John: maybe? And it's like, the
Ken: sounds right,
John: in
Stacy: it was Charlie Kaufman, Louis C. K. It was Steve
Ken: oh shit,
Stacy: job. It was Stephen
Ken: whoa,
Stacy: job. it
was, you know, it was like a dream team.
John: Heh heh
Stacy: talk about like, creators that want to do this.
John: heh

Stacy: And a network that wants to, like the creators seem so like freewheeling and having fun
and just
Ken: yeah, oh
Stacy: show, they start doing their thing, the very first, and it's so outrageous and so like dark
and weird and stoner. And it came right after Home Improvement, but none of them had ever
even bothered to watch Home Improvement. And when they finally did, they
Ken: my gosh,
whoa,
Stacy: The very, the very first sketch is Dana Carvey impersonating Bill Clinton. some reason,
he's talking about the importance of breastfeeding and involves him, this is the very first sketch.
He opens up his shirt and he's got six nipples. And he gets live puppies and there's a pump with
milk.
He gets live puppies and he's breastfeeding these puppies with milk coming out of his nipples.
And afterward, and of course, everyone's gone on to be this massive star. So now they
Ken: yeah,
Stacy: on it and laugh, right?
Ken: right.
Stacy: looking back and just talking about the ratings. How the ratings were like, cause
everybody loved Dana Carvey.
They were like a zillion. And during this one sketch, it's just going, Ewww!
Ken: Just, everyone clicked.
Ha ha ha. That's amazing.
Stacy: they thought they were getting this, but they were really getting like the Eric Andre show,
you know? Oh my
Ken: Ha ha ha.
Stacy: so
Ken: That's so good. I love that. I gotta watch that. That
sounds awesome.
Stacy: delicious.
John: really great. what kinds Of
Ken: Hmm?
John: do you think a showrunner should bring to the studio and
Stacy: Ooh.

Ken: Ooh.
John: handle internally? Like Drew and I, you know, we come from a home that, you know,
were, we were, you, we grew up learning to clean up the messes, you know what I
Ken: Hmm.
John: S in
Ken: Yeah.
John: And I think, you know, once we. You know got into like this, I mean, there's so many
masses that you know, like you're like,
Ken: Non stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John: the studio and network never have to worry about, there's
Stacy: Yeah.
John: we, you know, we, we tend to, but then we've had, you know, at moments, you know,
studios and networks, like, why didn't you tell us that was going on?
Like we could have
Stacy: Mm.
John: and, and I've, you know, thought like, what, well, what should I, what should I talk, you
know,
Stacy: Mm.
John: I almost don't even know how to ask for that kind of help.
Stacy: And
Ken: It's...
Stacy: answer that, but then also tell us a person who's gone too far where you're like, whoa,
whoa, I'm not your therapist. I'm not the
Ken: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Stacy: version.
Ken: yeah,
um, I mean, it's, it's a tricky one, because like, I personally err on the side of like, transparency,
people do well when they have context and information. That being said, I think there are times
when like, too much information is not a helpful thing, especially when you're like trying, it's just
like, Like, they're, they're, like you said, they're like constant issues that come up.
Not even, like, because anything's truly fundamentally dysfunctional, it's just like, the very nature
of doing a very complex thing for this long, you
know,

like, things are going to come up. Personality conflicts are going to come up with that many
people, it's just inherent. And so, like, that's part of where I think there's a little bit of, And I feel
like, you know, anytime I've had, you know, a team or, like, people reporting to me, there is a
certain level of, like, managing up, managing down that happens even within a corporate
structure.
Where it's like, you know, having to, I think, manage things in the right way, where you are
shielding, you know, kind of one direction or the other. Anything that's, like, not helpful or
distracting, you know, in the short term, and it's not going to... really dramatically impact things in
the long term.
And then there are the things where it's like, okay, if this is heading a certain direction, like, you
know, I've been in situations where it's like you have certain key creative people, like, core to the
show, where it's like all of these people need to be working well together.
And... Not knowing when there is, I've been in a situation where like, you're like, not knowing
that there is starting to be a fundamental conflict amid those people, until it's too late to like, we
passed the Rubicon. Like, it is
like, we are now at the point where it is not really solvable on a
personal level. And, um, which is not to say that like, the studio, the network is always going to
be able to step in and solve everything. But it's like, at least you can have a help to be. Like, get
to resolve things before it gets too big, or, um, Yeah, manage things ahead of time, or if it's like
something budgetarily, or you know, like, I mean, It can kind of be anything.
Anything where it's like, if this continues to bubble up in the wrong way, we're gonna have a
very, very serious problem.
Stacy: Mm.
Ken: would rather know earlier that, look, here's... What we are worried about, here's what we're
doing to manage it, nothing for you to do, just flagging it. Like, that, I'm like, okay, now it's on my
radar, we can check back in about it, hopefully the answer is in a week.
You know what, we got it under control, or, by the
way, if you could help us with XYZ, you know, I think we can manage this. Versus just getting the
call where you're like, Defcon 5 or Defcon 1, whichever one is the worst one,
you know, like it's yeah, Defcon terrible, um, is You know, like we're here and you're like, whoa,
like how did this even
happen?
So I think it it's that's a long way of saying like I don't think there is a Totally right answer
because you kind of have to judge Each situation a little differently because you know to your
question Um, when does it happen the other way? I think there are times when like I feel like,
this is something even just as an executive, like a young executive that I learned pretty quickly.
You can like, surface too much information. You know, where
it's like, all of a sudden people are like, wait, is everything wrong? Like, and you know, kind of
gets a little bit of a, You know, people get concerned to a degree that they don't need to be, and
I

think like on the showrunner level I've had that too where, you know, or like anyone on the
creative side where you're like, wait I'm hearing a lot about this stuff now
Stacy: um.
Ken: doesn't feel like something I should be involved in, it feels like something you guys should
be managing
But
like is there something deeper going on and trying to suss that out?
think you just have to be careful to not get an outsized reaction when it's not needed, you know
Um,
John: Yeah
Stacy: on fire so that the producer could get a pat on the back when they put that
Ken: when they put it out,
Stacy: but it
Ken: Oh yes, the...
Stacy: sometimes people, we all like attention. I love it.
John: the boardroom. We all need to meet in the boardroom It's an emergency and then it'd be
like this thing. I'd
Ken: Yeah.
John: think this is a fake emergency I don't feel like this is like can't
Stacy: reminds me of last night's fake emergency.
Yeah, yeah.
John: Like, I don't know why everyone's being incensed into this panic
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know what I
Ken: we would call that like the firefighting, the firefighting arsonist. Is
just like, you're like, why... yeah. you're just like... You literally just lit the fire.
And like, now we all have to put it out. And they're like, look, I put out this fire that I started. You
know,
is uh, yeah.
John: It's like,

Ken: You know,
John: the
Stacy: yeah. Yeah.
John: you know,
Ken: Right. Exactly. Exactly.
John: you know, or, You know, there's, there's, uh, you know, often the person who shows up,
it's like, Ooh, been trying to do this thing and I had to do this and then do this and then do this
and then do this.
And you're
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: just listening to the, you
Stacy: You need to get married so you can bore your wife with that boring story of how you
finally got that prop or location or yeah,
whatever.
John: totally.
Ken: Shout out to all the spouses who are listening to all that.
John: totally, totally. Where, where, you know, I can see that, you know, and, and one thing you
were saying that I, I loved, um, it's just talking about difficult conversations
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: from the show running side. If you're willing to see the problems and not like hide from
them and
Stacy: Hmm.
Ken: hmm.
John: conversations and, lovingly and kindly and compassionately sit down with someone and
be like, Hey, I, I'm hearing, you know, uh, you've been really hard on the vanities and you've
been really hard, like,
Stacy: Yes.
John: if I'm hearing about it, it's, it's, you know, it's becoming a thing.
And like, can
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: um, Can you try to be a little more patient with them? Like it'll serve you in the like, you
know, to

Ken: Yep.
John: whatever version of those conversations, like 95 percent of the problems just evaporate
by being willing to have an open human conversation with people about,
Ken: Yeah.
John: And, you know, I, I use like, you know, used to say like, you know, like half the job of, you
know, directing or show running is just difficult conversations and being willing to.
Ken: Totally. 100%. Mm Mm hmm. Mm
Stacy: do, uh, very well that I think is worth mentioning here one thing you always include in
your difficult conversations is you bring it around to, I'm talking to, this is why making this
change will benefit you. And this is why not making this change will hurt you.
You know, it, it's not about the Vanity's feelings. I mean, it is about the Vanity's feelings because
they're people, you know,
John: Yeah.
Stacy: sort of the equivalent of, you don't want people to turn against you because if the crew
turns against you. Uh, your experience won't go as well and your
reputation won't be as good.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you
Ken: Mm hmm. Mm Mm
Stacy: Like oh, wow. I, oh yeah, I'll definitely change. But if anyone's stubborn, you always
include the, you know,
this is why it will help you personally to change.
John: Well, and It's
Ken: hmm.
John: like, I feel like all of us are relying on the relationships, you know, you can fight the studio
over a line of dialogue
Stacy: Hmm.
John: like be like, you know, I'm going scorched earth. This line of dialogue is so important and
then it gets cut and post, you
Ken: It's like, yeah.
John: And, and you're like, and I just, you know,
Stacy: yeah.
John: the, the relationship is worth more than.

Stacy: Yeah.
John: particular detail I'm totally fixated on and
Stacy: Um,
Ken: Totally.
John: you get a note some, you know, my favorite notes are the notes where you're like, Oh, I
should have thought of that. That's such a good, like, that was
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: outside of my field of view, but like it rings true immediately.
And then there's the
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: that I'm like, Oh, Oh, I don't know how it like it rings true. And I was, I realized now I was
maybe avoiding
Stacy: yeah, right,
John: reason I have resistance, it scares me to,
Stacy: yeah,
John: write in that space. Like, I don't
Stacy: hmm,
Ken: huh.
John: I'll be for that, you know,
Stacy: right,
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: may feel my initial impulse might be like, no, like they can't like, you know,
Stacy: yeah,
John: you know, I don't want to do that.
Yeah. But then you realize like, Oh, this is the thing I was scared of, but it's so right.
Stacy: mm.
John: I needed, that help. And
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: like we all have, I don't know, both sides of

Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: I was going to say, I
Ken: Yeah, I think.
Stacy: meant to take you from good to great, but there's always
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: that it's going to take you from good to shitty because
Ken: yeah.
Stacy: it right. Maybe you'll hack at that scene and just for some reason, you know, nobody's
perfect. Like, so it's, it is scary to change, but,
John: Yeah.
Ken: totally building off that, like, one of the things when you're on the side of giving a note is
that you're always scared of if you do it, like, and I'm always, you know, cautious about giving a
note that you're like, alright, we take a swing in the wrong direction and it's not something that
you can tell that, like, the creative team really fundamentally gets and believes in and is behind.
Very good chance that you're gonna go from good, like, decent to bad.
And then the worst thing is to be like, Okay, can we actually just go back to the old version? You
know,
it's kind of like a bad, I think, momentum thing. It's bad, you know. It's just, you'd never want to
be in this, in this scenario where you're like, actually, you know, making, you know, guiding
things into a direction that is gonna be worse.
And I think that's, like, truly to me, part of... That, and why I think the best versions of it are a bit
of a dialogue.
Stacy: mm,
Ken: favorite phone calls and my favorite notes conversations are the ones where we get on
and we're like, alright, kind of giving a note in this direction.
And then you hear what the team has to say and you're like, Oh, okay.
Yeah, no, 100 percent that direction, you
know, where
you're like, now that I understand what you're saying and what you're going for, Forget that, it's
actually 100 percent the opposite. like,
you know, and like, let's chase that direction. And I feel like that's a lot of trying to get to the core
of what's the intention, what do you want to come across because if you're not addressing, like,
the fundamental and just trying to address the top layer,
Stacy: right,

Ken: lot of time you get people trying to like, they don't understand, I mean, understandably, it's
like, Not totally getting, why are we talking about this, or like, you know, you're kind of pushing it
in a direction that doesn't totally make sense, but trying to actually be collaborative.
Um,
John: mm,
Ken: and you can actually, in a weird way, in a collaborative setting, get into a bad scenario that
way. So I think it does become, like, alright, how do you drill down into the real thing? Um, like,
people say the note behind the note but like, really kind of get to the core of what are you trying
to do? Let us help, like, respond to that.
Stacy:
I've been surprised at how not prescriptive notes are. I've been, even when you ask, like, go
ahead, just lay it on me. Make it pretty. Just tell me what to do. You know, I'm a
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: I don't care.
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: You know, the notes are like, wow, that's sort of dreamy.
But, uh, John and
Ken: Uh huh. Ha ha ha ha!
Stacy: it. They're like, uh, what do you say, what is your friend? Ambiguity is your friend, like
slightly, slightly ambiguous notes are your friend
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: of present, you know, like, here's the spirit of the note.
Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: I then have the freedom to wrap my mind around it. know, I'm, I'm starting to understand

why
Ken: Yeah.
Stacy: is not actually all that helpful. Why. Why a little more poetic in the notes is actually
Ken: Mm hmm.
Stacy: own brain can go, Oh, I got what you mean. Whoop! Here's my version.
John: yeah,
Ken: it gives you space to play, I think, in

the
best version. And then I think there is, you know, there still is the moment for pretty prescriptive
notes. It's
just like, I remember the first time I started doing it, I had like three pages of notes that I was
ready to send. And at the time, the guys were Like,
No.
Like,
John: Yeah
Ken: pick like, pick like, pick four things that you actually care about
and let's talk about those. And um, that was again,
Stacy: That's
Ken: A like, oh, yeah, that would suck and probably not be super helpful to get like a wall of
notes like
That you know
Stacy: me of, do
Ken: Right,
Stacy: ever have a friend, this might be a girl thing, I've had my girlfriends go, like, look at this
shit going down with my boyfriend, and they'll show it to me, all I see is that their part of the text
thread goes on, and on, and on, and I don't even know what was said, but I know that I can go
to my friend like, girl, if
Ken: the volume is too much
Stacy: volume is all that matters, the volume is the
Ken: Yeah,
Stacy: and I think that can be true for notes too, yeah.
Ken: Oh a hundred percent Mm
John: to your point too, like just learning, I feel like there's a, there's a whole, I dunno, skill set or
craft to learning to interpret notes
Stacy: Interpret. Mm hmm.
John: like, you know, there's certain coded language, like, you know, really take your time, you
know. Getting this draft right or like things like that. You're like, oh, they're asking for bigger
changes, you know what I mean,
Ken: right, right,
John: there's all these like little kind of coded phrases where you're like, oh, I know Okay, they
want something more different than a couple tweaks.

You know what
Stacy: Yeah.
John: are they
Ken: right
John: they they're afraid that we'll break it if we do anything So they're trying to give very light,
you know what I mean? Like
Ken: Mm hmm
Stacy: is just a calibration. This is just a calibration. You
know, that's
Ken: yeah
yeah
Stacy: where it means. Yeah.
Don't break it.
Ken: Yep
John: there's, there's all kinds of, or, you know, often like you get a note on a scene and the
note may ask for something over here and you may be like, okay, the scene is the issue.
It's, it's not, you know, necessarily that solution. And
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: different ways we could do that? Like I see what, the issue here that they're having. And
sometimes it's, it's worth following up and being like, okay. to me, talk me through what the
problem is and sometimes there's just a, a basic misunderstanding of the intent of the scene
and it's
Ken: Totally.
John: we weren't clear in our articulation of this scene there, you know, we wrote this, they're
seeing this totally different thing.
Like we just need to shore up the, you know, scene descriptions or,
Ken: Yeah.
John: and sometimes the biggest note can turn into something that inconsequential
Ken: Right.
John: the smallest note is actually a much bigger problem,
Stacy: Mm.

John: And,
Ken: Yeah, exactly. Those ones that you kind of drop, and they don't seem that, you know, that,
those are always, I feel like, like, interesting ones too, where you kind of have one node, and
then it doesn't seem like it would be a big thing, but then when you really all think about it, you're
like, well, yeah, that's, that's a lot, you know,
like, and, you know, I think there are times when that's necessary.
and then a lot of the time where you kind of have to step back and say, Alright, like, what are we
actually working within? What is the show we're all trying to make? And I think,
again, that goes back to the conversations at the beginning where it's like, as much as you can,
I'll be shooting for the same target, you know?
Um,
is, is really, you know, I think a, a tricky thing, but I think it, you know, if you have the
conversations in the right way, understand each other. You know, work through the coded
language like you're talking about that I
think, like, you know, you can get there.
John: when I think
Ken: Yeah,
John: as long as there's communication like, you know, I I feel like you can solve You know
what? I mean? Like you can really find your way through
Ken: mm hmm.
John: good communication going on I remember the last show we were working on I I had a
scheduled call every Friday, you know, talk to the exec and we would just sort of talk through
anything going on and,
Stacy: Mm.
John: and it was great.
And, you know, we
Ken: Yeah.
John: each other as like friends, you know what I mean?
Ken: Mm hmm.
John: um, talk about our
Ken: Those are the best ones.
John: yeah, yeah. And it was
Ken: Yeah.

John: And, uh, you know, it was a really, I don't know, a fun weekly, chance to, I don't know, just
touch base. And, um, I found, you know, that those relationships can be very, very helpful.
And, and frankly, like in the writer's room, sometimes the whole room starts moving in a direction
and, and you sort of go down a path and then you get to where you're, you've been driving for a
week or two
Stacy: Yeah.
John: this is unruly. And,
Stacy: Yeah.
John: you know,
Ken: hmm.
John: or studio gives you notes in your, like, they're like, Hey, can you simplify this? And that
can be really helpful, you know, like,
Ken: Oh, yeah.
John: oh, they really want us to, you know,
Ken: Yeah.
John: like, don't mind the direction I was driving the car, you know, the last two weeks, you
know, the network
Ken: Yeah,
John: us to, you know, do this other thing. And, you know, it can save us from ourselves, you
know, a lot of the time too.
Stacy: John, you and I were both out of the room, uh, for a few days on a project we were
working on. I was off on draft, uh, you were off, I think, I don't know, doing other stuff. And, um,
when we both came back in, the 11 year old was taking psychedelic mushrooms by accident
and being chased by a bear.
And it really was like,
Ken: like,
Stacy: happened? Wow.
Ken: incredible.
Stacy: It's been a blue
Ken: You're like, please walk me through. How did we get
here? Yeah
John: totally. Sorry, what were you going to say though, Ken? What
Stacy: Yeah, please.

Ken: It's falling out of my brain with the 11 year old with the psychedelic mushrooms and the
bear
Stacy: accident, just going to reiterate, accidental
Ken: Accidental of course. No, I think what I was gonna say is I think you know what you're
describing though I think takes an openness on both sides to like I feel like you talk to some
people, I feel like, you know, whether it's some people on the executive side or some writers,
um, cause, you know, I would say the majority of our friends are writers, directors, creative
people, and obviously a lot of executives as well.
But it's interesting when you talk to everyone, I think there can be this kind of like, Very low key
distrust of the other side, and I think, like, when people come in with this, you know, like, let's
assume this is going to be a positive collaborative
environment, until proven otherwise. I think that you can get to the place that you're talking
about, where you have that exchange, and especially, like, you know, where people are frankly
trusting each other to do their respective roles and their respective jobs.
You know, it kind of reminds me, I have, like, a childhood friend who Ended up, you know, being
more on the venture capital side, and we got to talking, and we were kind of like both getting
started in our careers. And I was describing what I would do in terms of working with
showrunners and hearing pitches and things like that.
He was describing what he would do on the VC side. We were like, this sounds actually really
similar.
You know, you're kind of like, how do we find somebody that has a kind of wild vision?
that you're willing to bet many millions of dollars on because you believe in their vision, what
they want to do, and you believe that they're going to be able to infect a ton of other people with
that vision.
And, um, but part of it that's similar on this side is like, you know, it's always interesting to hear
people talk on that side. It's like a similar thing where like, here for advice, Giving you advice,
whether it's, you know, somebody on the board or just, like, from, you know, kind of, like, uh, an
investor position.
But, like, if they're ever getting in and having to tinker in the company itself, like, usually that's a
bad, bad thing. And I feel like, on this side, too, it's kind of, like, understanding the roles of, like,
how much can you, like, support, like, you know, and, like, give feedback. But, like, at the end of
the day, you gotta trust, like, you know, that people are gonna go.
You know, and make something great. Um, and, you know, it's kind of... Yeah, you got to have it
kind of both ways on that side. And I think when you can find that kind of, um, I guess,
partnership, like, you know, between those two sides, like, I think those have been, you know,
some of the best experiences I've had and some of the best shows I've had.
Whether on the network side, the studio side, like, you know, kind of in whatever role, when you
can find that combination of people, um, and in that way of working, it's like, that's where you get
great stuff, I think.
John: I love that. Well, this has been, yeah, amazing. Um, so I'll say in summary, like, you know,
one thing, uh, we talked about, Ken mentioned, you know, four things, you know, he looks for in
showrunners are, you know, vision and voice, having a north star, building, decisiveness and

being, I can't read what I wrote,
Ken: I stole being nimble,
John: being
Ken: that one from you.
John: Yeah, that's so good.
Stacy: So everybody just do that.
Ken: Just, there you go.
John: Oh, and if, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to subscribe and rate us
wherever you get your podcasts and please tell a friend that really helps us find our audience.
Uh, thank you so much, Ken. This has been a
Ken: Yeah, so much fun.
Stacy: Yeah, really fun. Super interesting.
John: really
Ken: Yeah.
John: I, feel like I've learned a lot. are questions I've always wanted to ask, but never had a
venue for that. So thank you for that. That's really, this is really helpful.
Stacy: Bye