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John: We were gonna do let's do actors first actors first. Okay, cool
Stacy: Let's
John: go Nice nice
Stacy: very nice
John: Nice and succinct.
Stacy: I think I'm starting to get to the point where I'm like, did I do that before? I know I've done
a screechy thing that goes to a low thing. I don't
John: know.
Drew: Well, if you ever, as we get deeper in this podcast, if you ever repeat, repeat one of the
intro songs, you probably won't notice.
John: True.
Drew: Well, welcome to the show on a show where every week we demystify some aspect of
the job of show running for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or who just wants
to know how it's all made. I'm Drew Dowdell.
John: I'm John Eric Dowdell.
Stacy: And I'm Stacey Shabosky.
John: This week we're talking about working with actors.
I thought this might be, you know, interesting as, you know, Drew and I both, you know, direct
and produce and write and Stacey came up writing and now produces and, you know, it's such
an essential part of the television relationship, especially with your leads.
Stacy: I'd say today's topic to me is more about working with the lead actors that, you know,
looking through the stuff that we're going to talk about.
It's, it's, uh, it's more about the special trust and communication you build with your leads, in my
opinion.
Drew: I think that's true. And I think as someone, I can speak as someone who's, you know,
more new to the directing game, someone who spent most of my career. You know, producing
and writing and kind of, uh, take you on the directing mantle in the TV space just in the last
couple of years.
Um, that was definitely the thing I was most terrified of and most concerned about was stepping
in and, and, uh, you know, just sounding enough like a director and talking enough like a director
and making sure I'm not, you know, doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, you know,
trying to get the best performance without, uh, without showing my ass really based on my, you
know, lack of experience.
And I think that's, uh, You know, I think maybe a concern for any new director is one of the
primary concerns is just how the relationship with your lead actors are going to get. And
sometimes you have an actor that might, you know, have a reputation for being a little

complicated or a little tricky or a little ornery, and that makes it, you know, extra scary.
So, um, hopefully this will, uh, help
John: a little bit. You know, in my first couple of movies, like there was this, this real fear of like,
what if I say something to them and it ruins their confidence and, you know, ruins the next take.
And, you know, there was this real fear of. Almost like trying to drive the car through somebody
else, like, almost trying to control what they're doing without, like, seeming controlling, like, you
know, it was like, I feel like in film school it was kind of taught as a, almost like a manipulation,
how do you manipulate your actors to do what you want, um, and that wasn't a very healthy or
helpful way, I found, you know, to, to work with actors, where I think when I started, you You
know, I, I actually took a acting for directors course.
I remember that. Yeah. Remember that? Like just partially, like I was like, I don't speak the
language. I don't know how to, uh, communicate with actors in a way that makes them feel
heard. You know what I mean? It was just this, I just didn't have a common language. And once
I, you know, did the acting myself, it was so terrifying.
And I was like, Oh, like fear, fear is such a big part of this on both sides. Like, It's scary directing
and it's scary acting and you're both standing out there really vulnerably and just thinking in
terms of like, Oh, maybe that's the thing to focus on. Maybe that's the connection to make is
helping them through that, that scary space.
And I think once my, I flipped my mentality on that front, I think that really changed my
relationship with
Stacy: actors. I'm going to jump in here and just say, I think one thing we should talk about a
little bit here is how showrunners are allowed to talk to actors, how directors are allowed to talk
to actors.
There's a lot of rules about all of this, and also I think it might be interesting for the listener who
perhaps hasn't worked in, who's not an actor or hasn't worked. In the television or film medium
that, um, I think a newbie would think, or somebody from the outside might think, well, just be
prescriptive.
Tell them, you know, and people actually make a joke about that. The joke is louder, faster,
funnier. Just say to them like, Hey, you know what? You're doing something weird with your
face. Could you stop doing that weird thing with your face? Or this line was supposed to be
funny. Could you do it like this?
You know, like all sorts of things that we could laugh about it now, because you would never be
allowed to do that. You're not allowed to give line readings. You know, you're not allowed to be
like, say it like this. Um, actors aren't allowed to give other actors like, hey, I think you should do
this. You know, um, and I think coming from comedy, which a lot of times is about set up
punchline, set up punchline, it sort of actually drives me crazy.
Of like, I wish people could just get prescriptive and say, Hey, if you do it like this, it'll be much
better. But I think the reason they don't is that I think a lot of comedy actors come from outside
in, like they're willing to take notes about how they look or feel because they're sort of thinking
the performance with an external, externalized view of how does this.
Come across. Whereas I think most actors, especially most people who are going to ascend to
being your lead actor in a TV show. Most of those folks come from the internal world. Do you
know what I mean? They're not going to do shit unless they feel it. Believe it. Do you know what
I mean? Like, they know that they're probably going to look like fools if they start thinking from
the outside in.

I hope I'm being articulate about this. Um, so they can't just, if, if they go ahead and just like,
well, I'll just do the line like this, or I'll just hit the joke on that. It's going to make me take them
out of that centered, uh, grounded.
Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: One thing we're going to touch on too, maybe we can just clarify, is, you know, the role of
showrunner versus director in TV, because, you know, in film and movies that the director is
talking to the actor exclusively, you know, really no producer or no other type of person is really
giving any performance and the same is true in TV, but it's just a little bit of a different dynamic.
You know, the director might also be the showrunner, then they're kind of one in the same. But if
the director is someone other than the showrunner, then. They're the ones giving all the
performance notes and everything, but the showrunner is going to have maybe a strong opinion
and a little bit more, you know, continuity with the overall story and the other episodes, and it's
going to be more kind of dialed into the creative and the showrunner being, you know, the more
creative, you know, boss on TV, um, the director and showrunner, you know, Um, we'll be talking
a lot in terms of performance and, you know, the showrunner kind of has to get their
performance notes to the actor through the director, which sometimes is very smooth.
And other times, you know, it's not, and, uh, it can really depend on that relationship. And in any
given show, you might have, you know, five or more directors of the course of that season. So a
showrunner is kind of constantly having to adapt to other directors and, uh, and get these
performance, performance ideas to actors, you know, but then offset.
Actors may come to the showrunner and say, you know, I'm doing this thing. I'm playing it a little
bit more like this, the scene tomorrow. I think I'm going to play it like this. And those
conversations, you know, if I'm not mistaken are totally, you know. And, uh, and, and the actor is
going to have kind of a really longer term relationship with, with the show runner than they are
the director.
So it's a little, it's just a little delicate, it's a little different. It's kind of something you have to
constantly navigate and be really respectful of the director without, uh, without, you know.
Abandoning your actor
John: too. Right.
Stacy: I will say too that the showrunner has the first relationship with, I mean, unless you've got
like something where you've got, uh, you know, Martin Scorsese is the director.
Like if you've got some superstar director, who's part of it right from the beginning, I'm sure
they're having some initial conversations. But in general, it's the, you know, like you said, there
might be five directors, 10 directors in a season, but the showrunner is consistent throughout.
So they're going to have that initial conversation.
Like, for example, they'll probably be a part of the casting of choosing the actor in the first place.
So those first initial phone calls or zoom meetings or coffee shop meetings, or not coffee shop,
but, you know, of like. Why do you want to do this? Who is this character? You know, you get to
build that trust and build that communication.
You're kind of co creating the character, which is crazy. You know, like, like as the writers, the
show runner, kind of the head writer, you're writing it out, right? You're brainstorming it, writing it,
and the character is yours. And then you hand it over and somebody speaks it and acts it and
then it's theirs.
But really it's both of yours.

John: Yeah,
Drew: that's a good point. The actor is typically making the commitment, the creative
commitment to the showrunner, you know, even before the director is even known, you know,
and so that relationship usually is, like you said, the, the creative spine of the, of the actor,
creative, you know, uh, relationship.
John: Well, and I think at its best, I feel like the lead character, those characters are, like you
said, Stacy, co created with the showrunner and the actor, it becomes. A combination of the two
instead of the show, you know, you know, there's the version of the showrunner. It's like, I've
written it. It's all perfect.
Just do it as it's written. But over time that that breaks down as opposed to like, here's an
example is, uh, you know, in our first season, you know, the Waco, um, Taylor Kitsch played
David Kresh and he started doing, you know, Lots of his own research and like looking into
things and he read, you know, the scripts initially and he said, oh, you know what?
I wish was there like after David crash was shot He called his mom and he's like, I just find that
such a sad thing that like this guy at this moment, why would he call his mom? He's like, I find
that so complicated and interesting. And we, you know, we're like, Oh yeah, I, I don't know why
we didn't put that in the script.
Like, you know, that's in the history. Why didn't we put that in the script? And we added that to
the script and, and it was an amazing scene. And I. I feel like, you know, uh, Michael Dorman
and Joe Pickett, like, there's a lot of scenes and a lot of the character nuance that came from
just like human discussions with, with Michael, uh, you know, about our lives and his life and,
you know, and, and the character becomes this really kind of beautiful.
Combination of both of our artistic instincts and, or all of ours, you know, it's like a, it's like a
group, um, and trying to be the sole person whose vision is being executed just doesn't tend to
work as well as getting everyone really invested, especially your leads, because, you know,
what's the saying, you know, season one, they work for you.
Season two, you're, you know, partners and season three, you work for them. Um, yeah. So if
Stacy: in season one, you, the showrunner, you, the big old boss, pull them in to collaborate
and you're co creating, then hopefully by season three, when everybody could give a shit that
you, you know, hopefully they're winning Emmys, hopefully they'll repay the favor and bring you
in and it'll still be a collaboration.
Whereas if you spent season one going dance monkey. I'm not laughing, monkey. Dance! Then
I think season three, you're going to be eating alone in your trailer a lot. Yeah.
John: Your season three is, uh, you know, how you're treated season three, I'm sure is directly
related to how you, just how you act season one and, you know, just.
listening to them. You know, some actors or actors, you know, over the course of a season two
will have concerns. There will be directors who kind of come in and sort of push them around a
little too much. And there'll be actor or directors who don't give them enough or who give them
way too much, like.
And, you know, I found, you know, on, on picket, like I had a standing lunch every week with, uh,
Michael Dorman and we, every Tuesday we'd have lunch and I'd come to him and we'd sit down
and, and just hearing like his concerns, what he's worried about, anything he wants to talk about
with character or just like being human, you know, what's going on in his life.

Um, I found those. You know, not just like something, you know, to do on a business front, but
like, it became part of the reason, like, this is why we do this. This is why we do this is to
connect with people on a deep level. Like I feel like the, the writing, the directing, the show
running, it's just kind of an excuse to, you know, get together with people and talk about the real
stuff in life.
And um, And that's, you know, the actors are a great place to start with that.
Stacy: I'd like to jump in and say that's also a great opportunity to invite people into leadership.
What I mean is, I would say Michael Dorman is really a leader. He's a very sweet, gentle, good
hearted. So a lot of those meetings, it's not just like you guys were having your lunches and, you
know, talking about Joe feels like this, but I, you know, it wasn't all feelings.
Yes. The feelings is the fun stuff and the life stories, the fun stuff, but he did a lot of like quiet,
low key advocating for say the crew. Do you know what I mean? There was a lot of, Hey, I
noticed this. You know, this key is maybe sort of pushing around that key or, you know what I
mean? Like not that he's a tattletale.
I don't want to make it sound like that. He wasn't at all, but like you have, you know, if the show
runner is not on set that much, you don't know what's going on with the camera department or
what kind of scandal is, you know, going on in the costume department. I just threw this out. No
scandals, no delightful people.
But you know what I mean? It's nice to get that intel and I'd say that's a leadership role. So it's,
it's like when you're talking to your leads like that, it's like leader to leader. Yeah. Maybe that's
why they're called the leads.
Drew: No it's true. Yeah. You are so thankful when you have that kind of lead actor that is also,
you know.
A leader on set and a leader with the rest of the cast and the crew. And like you said, Stacy,
they're, they're just so tuned into things that you're just totally unaware of. Like as a showrunner,
you're tending to, you tend to be like, you know, the parents a little bit when the parents around
everybody kind of behaves, you know, a little bit better.
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Hides the drama from you. So the actors will, you know, will fill you
in on all that, you know, when you need it and when it's important. The
Stacy: character actor guest stars don't hit on the crew quite as hard when the showrunners are
around. There aren't as many shoulder rubs.
John: I gotta say, you're on set writer too, if you have an on set writer, that can be a very good,
cause nobody pays any attention to the on set writer.
That's a good person to check in with every day and go like, how's it going? Oh, this, you know,
director's kind of, uh, you know, doing a thousand takes and it's burning everyone. Like, you
know, it's, that can be a really helpful. Real eyes and ears, you know, cause like drew said, like,
yeah, when the showrunner is there, people are aware of that and try to act right.
Where, uh, when you're not there, that can be really helpful. One
Drew: thing you were saying earlier too, Jen, I want to come back to is just the, the kind of
making it personal. Like, you know, one thing that I feel like you're really good at that I've
learned from is just how, you know, when talking to an actor.
about their character, especially in the early stages. Like if you know the material well, and
you've related certain scenes and certain experiences of the character to your own life and to

your own, you know, maybe it's your childhood, maybe it's, you know, your divorce or your, you
know, something personal that, you know, that you can open up about.
I find that that is the most effective, you know, connection point with an actor is to personalize
something about that. And that character and in your own life and actress tend to remember it. I
just remember like, you know, we did a movie with Owen Wilson, what, 10 years ago now. And
there was like, you know, personal details that came up in those conversations on that movie in
Thailand a decade ago that he'll still bring up, you know, and he still remembers.
And, uh, um, it's really, you know. Meaningful. And I think, you know, with Michael Dorman on
Joe Pickett, when he could kind of internalize so many things about Joe and Joe's upbringing
and how he could relate to some of those things on a personal level that he may not, you know,
you know, revisit much in his mind, you know, he could kind of go there as part of this character
and it becomes so powerful.
Thank you. The performance becomes so personal and so believable and all those things. And,
uh, but it often helps a lot to kind of open that door first, you know, to say, you know, what I love
about this scene is I remember this one time when I was six and his kids, you know, threw me
down a flight of stairs and, and, you know, I was crying and I was, whatever, whatever kind of
story that is like hard to bring up, you know, um, It's really, it opens the door wide open and
actors just dive right in, uh, when they, when they see you get
Stacy: personal.
It's almost like an artistic version of never have I ever, you know, everyone likes to get deep. I
remember, so I did a drama troupe. I had always done like acting and stuff, but I did a drama
troupe in eighth grade and eighth grade, you know, usually when people are closing up and
they're starting to get very like.
Man, 8th grade dramaturgy was just the opposite. And we're talking about cheesy. We'd go to
like the senior center and be like, We're doing a show for the old people. I mean, the corniest.
But our teacher was like, Let's get deep. Let's talk. Everybody's talking about their schizophrenic
mom at home. You know?
Their, their, Like body image problems, and then we'd just go to Eaton Park at night and the
football players and all the other people would be like, uh, flirting and blowing straws and all
that. And we'd just be crying. We'd literally go to the diner and just like tell deep stories and try to
outdo each other with how messed up our lives were and weep, you know what I mean?
And I think, I think Most actors, they have that, like, most actors have that kernel of, that's why
they want to do it. I mean, not just that. They also have the very shallow side of they want to
look good and all that, which is important. You don't get to be a big old star if you look like a pile
of crap, um, but they want to get deep.
And the truth is they've probably been doing it since they were little, you know, most of these
lead actors started out at like Dolly Dingle's dance school. You know what I mean? Like all
those, all those Ryan Gosling, God, have you ever seen that footage of him dancing in that
sequin vest? Have you I think most actors...
Kind of come from that. Yeah. That's, they've, that's, and they, and they love it if, if the, the
director and the showrunner, uh, cry with them at Eaton Park too. Yeah,
John: that's true. I think that's true. Drew. Yeah, drew and I had, uh, do, do you remember Drew
and I went to military school and all boys? There wasn't boys.
Catholic military school, boys Catholic military school. A real thing. And, uh, what a, what a
perfect fit for you, . Oh, totally. Perfect. And they had these family change retreats for all the kids

who had been through something, a death in the family or a, and you know, our family had been
through this, uh, you know, pretty ugly divorce and, and so we'd go to these and everyone, it
was so great because it was all these kids you knew from the military school, but, you know,
same kind of thing, all getting deep and talking about, you know, um, and alcoholism and just all
the stuff that a lot of, you know, that a lot of us were dealing with.
And I just remember those being some of my favorite times in all of high school was going like,
Oh my God, I had no idea. Other people were dealing with like heavy stuff the way we were as I
feel like actors, just like writers, we've all been through something, you know, there's a reason
we're propelled into a space.
To be vulnerable, to work through things publicly, you know, whether that's through writing,
through acting, through any of the arts, like, you know, nobody gets into the arts who didn't have
some event that made them start thinking in terms of content and reality, or, you know what I
mean? Like, you know, to, to separate, it's a, it's a, I don't know, a coping mechanism that we've
all come to this for some reason.
I feel like actors, um, Go on to set over and over thinking like, am I safe here? Is this a safe
place for me? Is this, is this the kind of place where people are gonna be mean to me and tell
me I'm not good enough? Actors need somebody there who's gonna love them through all their
ups and downs. Who's gonna be there and be a sounding board and be present and, um, and
you know, not somebody who's gonna be like, Well, if they won't do the line, then, you know, you
know, they need somebody to talk them through the line sometimes, or, you know, they may be
like, I don't understand why this character is doing this at this moment, instead of getting
defensive and being like, well, it's good.
It's a good line, you know, instead of being that person being like, you know, taking the time to
be like, Oh, you know, that line. Came from, you know, I had this moment in my own life where
this thing happened. It was really weird. But, like, this is a version of that and that's where this,
you know, this came from.
Um, or, or something human like that. I feel like just keeping it in the human realm, like, really
helps the relationship in a way. That's counterintuitive. I, I feel like in my early directing, I, I had
armor on, I was like, okay, nobody questioned that I know what I'm doing because I didn't know
what I was doing.
I was, I was winging it every day and I was terrified and, uh, you know, before work every day,
I'd, you know, go in the corner and like, pray, like, please God, get me through the day, you
know? Um, Um, and now it's a little more just making sure the actors feel okay. And that, you
know, that's kind of my, my focus now more and more.
Drew: I think especially the first few days that an actor's on a show, you know, the very
beginning is the most important period of time and the most, uh, delicate balance in terms of,
uh, just emotions, you know, can be running high. And I think every actor is kind of entering a
show trying to figure out or determine if.
They're happy to be there or not if they made the right decision by saying yes to the show. And I
think, uh, you know, sometimes you'll see some more of those kind of spikes in emotion in those
first few days. And, you know, instead of letting an actor just kind of storm offset and go stew in
their trailer, I think, you know, one thing I've seen you do, John, that, that I've.
Emulated as a director to is you follow them to that trailer. You follow them outside when they
and say, Hey, no, I know something's wrong. We, you know, tell me what, what's bothering you.
And if you don't take that opportunity, you know, you've kind of just, you've missed a chance to
get closer. You've missed a chance to build that trust and to have them come back on set
confidently, knowing that you got their back.

You're not going to, you know, make a big public thing about it. You're going to, you know,
quietly. Follow them out, figure out what's going on. Keep it, you know, kind of private and, uh,
and protect them. And I think, um, You know, I've seen an actor turn around 180 degrees on day
one after a moment like that and just be so fully committed after that was like, wow, that, that,
you know, John following that actor out into the parking lot and, you know, it really just calling a
timeout on a whole day where you got, you know, 150 people waiting inside and saying, we're in
no rush, you know, I want to hear what's bothering you and, uh, you know, however long that
takes.
And, uh, Opportunities
Stacy: for intimacy. That's what they call it and that how to raise an emotionally intelligent child.
One of those books was like, those kinds of problems are an opportunity for intimacy.
John: Yeah. And you
Drew: need to take, you don't get many of those opportunities, especially girly. And so if you
have one of those opportunities, it's helpful not to look at it like, Oh my God, I can't believe we're
having, this is happening already.
It just got here
yesterday.
Stacy: And I remember the other thing, it's yours. A lot of them can begin with what you notice,
like, Hey, you seem, brr, brr, you know, like you seem disappointed or like you seem upset or,
you know, not, and then it can, so just sort of acknowledging and then, and then the person, if
they are in a state can be like.
That's right. I'm seen. I do feel, or maybe you got it wrong of like, like you seem upset. Well, you
know, I'm actually disappointed or whatever. I don't know. Or maybe you got it wrong. They
seem upset with the DP, but really they're upset with themselves cause they flubbed something.
It's anyway, by, by saying to somebody, this is what I'm observing.
It lets them, you can hash it out together.
John: Yeah, that's it. And I remember, you know, that, that day, Drew, you're talking about, you
know, it was like, you seem upset, like, what's going on? And we had this, you know, and he was
feeling like he wasn't doing his best work and he, it, but the work was amazing. And, and it was
like, sometimes, you know, we're all scared or, or, you know what I mean?
Like intimidate or, you know, we loaded them up with way too much work on day one. And it was
just unfair. And I. It felt like he was being unfair and I told him like, Hey, you know, I, I know you
don't know me yet, you know, very well, but I feel like you're being really unfair to yourself. And I
think you should give yourself a little more, you know, credit and a little, little more room.
And it was that moment, you know, at that moment, I feel like we had a, we went from being two
people working on something to two human beings going through an experience together. And it
made us. Um, like genuinely friends and, um, and I feel like that's the difference. That's the,
that's what we all need. We all need that sometimes.
Like, you know, Drew, you know, and Stacy, both of you guys are that for me. Like the moments
where I'm like losing my mind, like you guys are the ones. You know what I mean? Who, like,
you look upset. What's going on? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. We all do that. You
Stacy: know. How do you do that as the showrunner? I know how you do that as the director.

Like, a lot of these examples naturally are going to be like, you fall on them out. There's a lot of
stuff that only the director is allowed to do. In the moment, or if the showrunner does it, they
have to do it through the director of like, Hey, can I speak to you for a second? Director runs out.
Director goes back to the actor.
How do you, you mentioned having a standing lunch date with one of your lead actors. What are
other ways?
John: I would also clarify
Drew: that. I would also clarify too, that I think between takes and performance specific notes to
an actor is a director's job and a director alone. You know, I think if there's a conversation in the
middle of the day and an actress upset and he, there's a timeout and he's stepping out, I think.
A showrunner absolutely can go have that conversation, you know, um, I think, I mean, what do
you think, John? I don't think that's
Stacy: also a lot of times the actor brings them in. I even, I've never been a showrunner, but I've
been the onset, you know, supervisor a bunch and there can be a lot of like the director goes
away for a second.
The actor's like, Hey, can I ask you about this line or, you know, and, and that's how it begins.
And then I was told. Uh, by Nelson, thank you Nelson for the excellent advice that if it's starting
to get into a deep place where I feel like I might be overstepping my bounds in a panic, I should
look for the director and be like, maybe we should bring you into this, you know, so I don't get
fired.
And then it becomes a three person conversation, but you know, so sometimes the actor can in
fact sort of summon you or reach out to you. And I'm sure as the showrunner, it's, it's gotta be,
although, uh, you guys had noticed that. A lot of times the onset supervising the covering writer
is invited into those conversations, maybe more than the showrunner is because the director is
going to be less intimidated by the covering writer than the showrunner.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: But I think TV directors are generally more open to having, you know, a little bit bigger
conversation, three person conversation than a, than a film director would be. Yeah.
Stacy: And there are a lot of those. There are a lot of those three person conversations. Totally.

John: Well, and I think too, like with, you know, with our actors too, like we, we tend to say like,
Hey.
Anything that comes up anytime like we're always available call anytime like, you know what I
mean? Like if I'm sleeping my phone's off, so it won't ring like call anytime day or night. You
never have to hesitate You don't have to set up a call. I'm always available to you and and just
creating that opening where you know Actors will reach out.
They'll be like, hey the scene came up in the next, you know episode and I I just don't feel
comfortable with that and you know, or whatever whatever it is Um, and again too, like if you
know, something's going to be a hot button, you know, there's a nudity scene or you know Off
the top of my head like or something that you know The actor don't just let the page get to them
and them have to go through that alone You know get ahead of that like reach out to them and
say hey We're thinking of adding, you know, we've, we've had moments like this, like we're
thinking of adding a scene like blank in the next episode.

Would you be comfortable with that? If you're not like, no one will ever know you're not
comfortable with it. It just won't be in the script, you know? Um, and we've, we've had those, you
know, conversations with, you know, we had one character, you know, showed his butt in the
scene and we were like, Hey. You know, we, we had that conversation like, Hey, if you, if you
wouldn't be comfortable with this, uh, it just won't be in the script.
Um, so no one, you know, you never have to, uh, feel that discomfort of being like not a team
player or something like
Stacy: that. Like, are you talking about the award winning Chad Rook? Chad Rook? What did
he just win? He won a Canadian
John: award. He won a Leo award. Yeah. He won a Leo. Way to go, Chad. Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. Billy the Kid.
Congratulations,
Stacy: Chad. I think a lot of those conversations happen. Um, standing in line for lunch, I have
noticed, you know, um, one thing, a lot of times showrunners, you know, they're up high, right?
They might have a, they might have an assistant get their lunch, bring it back and they're in their
trailer.
Cause they might just want to like relax for a second or turn around rewrites or things like that.
But when the showrunner comes out, I'm speaking as the covering writer, when you're standing
in line and you're getting your own lunch. That gives a nice opportunity for an actor to drift up to
you to go, Hey, I noticed, here's one I had with, um, Sharon Lawrence, who's also super genius.
She is so on the ball and smart that she actually noticed that one of her scenes that wasn't
going to be shot for like another week switched from an interior to an exterior. Like they had it, I
don't know, in the slug lines or whatever. Like, so she was like, Hey, I noticed it was going to be
that interior scene, you know, and then, and then it turned into an exterior.
And I was like, Oh yeah, we couldn't get, we're not actually allowed in that house there. So we're
going to set the whole thing like by a waterfall or whatever. And she was like, Huh? And she was
able to like, Process that and quickly go like, um, I don't know if she did it right then or afterward,
but sort of followed up like, Hey, I have a lot.
And I explained how the scene was going to be very funny now and blah, blah. And she had a
chance to explain that she loves comedy. She does a lot of it. Her character has a lot of comedic
moments, but the reason she had loved the scene in its preexisting form was it finally gave her
character a chance to go deep.
And, and do a little more drama. So I would never have known that. I would have just been like,
it's another great Missy comedy scene. She's Sharon Lawrence is hilarious. She'll, but to have
her say, Hey, the scene as previously written was a little more dramatic. And to be honest, I love
that. And I kind of missed that.
And then I got to go back to you guys. So, you know, convey that information and then you
could create a new scene that is in an exterior, but is dramatic. And then she knocked it out of
the park, but you have to be available for those. Like she, that might've been too small a deal for
her to get on the phone and be like, Hey, I noticed it's an exterior, not an interior.
Now is it still going to be, you know, that would have been too small a deal to bring up in such a
big way. But if you catch somebody by the coffee, by the trailer, by lunch.

John: Yeah, wanting to have somebody to have an on set writer who people can go to and who
will relay stuff and to have, you know, to have that openness.
And communication where, you know, sometimes, uh, an onset writers, uh, less intimidating
than calling, you know what I mean? They're making a phone call or someone, someone's there
and you can like, just sort of bring something up and to have onset writers who, you know, we'll
keep track of that stuff and bring them up so that the actor then sees those script pages
adjusted and it's like, Oh my God, thank God I feel heard, you know?
I think, you know, often there's, you know, over the course of a season, over the course of an
episode, like often an actor will be stuck or focused or worried about one specific scene,
whether that's a, um, a big emotional moment or, uh, um, you know, some, something that taps
some vulnerability inside of them.
And I, I, I would just say like, just as a, uh, it's helpful sometimes to make sure you're available
for those days. If you will know those scenes, you will know the scenes that actors are worried
about because they will let you know. And to make sure you're there and available on those
days for support and, um, openness.
Like literally
Stacy: be there on set, you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Because the showrunner is not on set every
Drew: day. Not every day. Yeah. No. But if you show that you're paying attention, that, you
know, you know that the actor had a concern about the scene, so you're there to, you know, you
know, I think that really goes a long way.
I think actors appreciate it when they know, you know, just another sign that, you know, You've
got their back and you know what they're concerned about and you're there for them and I think
that's really, really key because there is with every block and not even every season with every
block. Maybe it's a two episode block.
There's one scene, you know, there's one scene that your lead is not so sure about or, you
know, or really excited about, but it has to be just perfect. You know, there's just one thing that
stands out and just to kind of be around for that thing, I
John: think is good. Yeah. And they go through the schedule at the start of every block and go,
okay, these are kind of the flyover scenes.
I'm not so worried about that. These are the scenes that we really need to make sure are
amazing. Uh, the actors worried about it or I just want to make sure, you know what I mean? It's
handled delicately or that the director that day is, you know, giving them space to do this
properly, whatever it is, like you will know those scenes and, and, uh, to be there.
So Willing and able to love them unconditionally, uh, to be there and to create a safe space for
your actors because it's scary. It's scary being out there and if a scene doesn't work, they're the
face on it. You're not the face on it. You're, you may be the words in the mouth, you know what I
mean? But you're not, you're not standing, you know, people aren't going to look at you and be
like, I don't believe that.
Like, yeah, that's nice accent, John. Totally. Like. They are, they are out there in a way that you
aren't and that is worth being aware of and being, um, uh, compassionate about. Yes.
Stacy: Agreed. If the actor has given you enough of a heads up, you can also talk to the AD. Is
it the second AD who does, is it the first or the second who allots the amount of time like First.

The first. Okay. So, you know, some, usually they're really great at that. Sometimes it can go a
little wrong where they're like, wait, this strip only gets an hour and this strip gets four hours. I
think those special scenes, maybe it's probably a good idea, right? To speak to the first AD and
make sure there's enough time for the actor to, to get it right.
Yeah.
John: All right. So, you know, just, uh, wrapping up, I would say, you know, that the actionable
piece of advice for this is, uh, just love your actors. Like be there. Be available, bring your heart,
bring your vulnerability to the table and you will build a relationship with them that you can't get
through trying to trick them into doing stuff or, you know, any, any other way like there's, it's only
through vulnerability that you'll be able to, you know, lead or work with your actors in a, in a
meaningful way, I believe.
It's true.
Drew: And try to do that as early in your relationship as humanly possible, where you're not
waiting until you get to know each other super well before you get vulnerable. I think the earlier
you can go to those places with your actor, the, the, the more quickly, uh, you'll trust
John: each other.
Stacy: If you like our show or found this helpful, please consider taking a minute to rate us
wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend.
Thanks.
John: Thank you. Thank you. Au revoir.