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Stacy: Okay, if this theme song resembles anything you've heard before, um, that's wrong and
it's all in your head. Showee
John: oh wee. Showee oh wee oh wee oh wee oh wee oh wee.
Stacy: Brunner,
John: show.
Wow. Bravo. Bravo. You can't sue me. you, um,
Stacy: I
John: made that up.
Welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job of
showrunning for anyone who works in TV, who wants to work in TV, or just wants to know how
it's all made. This week we're continuing our conversation about the five primary functions of
your pilot script and how to navigate through those different Cs.
Stacy: Okay. As a reminder, those five functions that the pilot script serves are number one, it's
a sales tool to help you sell your show. Number two, it's a proof of concept for the network to
decide whether to order more scripts or even to green light your show. Okay. We covered those
two topics last week. Now this week, we're going to talk about.
Function number three, it is a lure, hopefully, for actors. Function number four, it's a blueprint for
pre production to unify your crews and build a show around. And function number five of your
pilot script, it is a shootable battle plan. That's the final step. It's a shootable battle plan. So
John: yeah, let's talk about, you know, script number three.
So the script function number three is the actor lure, like something, you know, before sending
your script out to an actor, let's say, you know, you hear this actor is looking to do something like
this and you're excited. You're going to send them a script. You may write a cover letter. Um, but
one thing I'd recommend is like read the script down.
Through the eyes of that actor, you know what I mean? Like if, uh, I've heard everything from
like scene descriptor, you know, the, the description of the character, like, um, we had a friend
who was a director who was trying to get an actor to do her movie and, uh, and she gave him a
script and he read it and he's like, ah, it's not for me.
And she looked back over the script and she's like, you know, the description was the character
is like, oh, we old and doughy, you know, something like that. And she was like, Oh, she's like,
how about we just change that to, you know, his age doesn't mask the fact that he is obviously
was an athlete, you know, in his younger years or, and they changed just that one thing, gave it
back to the actor.
And he's like, Oh man, what the changes are amazing. Like, okay, I'll do it. You know,
sometimes it's that simple, but it's worth looking at like why would this actor want to do this?
Project. Yeah,
Drew: and this is critical and you know, you do like to that example You just you just mentioned
John like you don't often get a second chance to make changes and send it back to an actor

that Almost never happens.
So you have to assume that this is the one read you'll ever get But we've had you know Oh, that
character is amazing. Of course, they're going to love it. And we sent it and then like kind of too
late, read back down, you know, those small details in the descriptions and like some of the
action where you're just like, Oh yeah, I get why, you know, the actor kind of tripped on this, you
know, it's like you think in your head, it's a great character.
Cause you, you know what you're imagining, but it's. Those little details, uh, it's really worth
going through, you know, and doing a specific past just for that actor, just for casting that actor.
And, um, and that does not need to be big changes. It's, it's changes like you mentioned, just
the way you describe the character, the way you describe his or her, you know, not just physical
description, but you know, the action too, we have, you know, a character who we might've been
like.
Playing was too kind of nervous, almost having a panic attack in the scene and we're like, okay,
that's not what we really meant, but that's how they read it. And they weren't wrong, but we want
it to be, you know, just more tense, not like the actors, you know, that the characters, you know,
trembling mess.
Yeah, troubling mess. Exactly. It's just, it's just turns of phrase that could be slightly different and
can make a huge
Stacy: difference. In your experience, what percentage of actors want their characters to be,
you know, noble, impressive, attractive, and what percentage of your actors kind of lean into
that?
Like for me, when I was an actor, I always loved, nothing made me happier than looking ugly,
uh, being a hot mess. You know, and I remember, you know, you had an actor, there was a
description in Joe Pickett where it said, you know, so and so, parentheses, a mustache you'd
love to punch or a mustache you want to punch, something like that.
And, uh, and the actor's wife read it and was like, this is a perfect role for you. So there's, what
do you think the percentage, I feel like there's a small percentage. That want to be sort of yucky,
or character, or down and dirty, or funny. Usually like comedy or character actors. And then there
are people who are like, No, no, I don't want to be old and wrinkly.
I want to be, you know, a lion in winter. Or a former athlete. Or like, for example, I've got one
now with a script that again, it's on pause because of the strike. But. I described the character
as a muffin top skank. And I thought, Oh my God, that's the best thing I've ever heard. Like I
would kill to play a muffin top skank.
That's amazing. But I think I might be in the minority. I think the vast majority of actors would be
like muffin top skank pass. What's your opinion about that? Give me, throw out a number for me.

Drew: Well, I think it, it almost helps to maybe delineate between your lead actors and then
everyone else. And I think, you know, to your point about a muffin top skank might be awesome
for like, uh, More supporting role that you're going a little more character with, but usually who
you're attaching.
Early is your leads and, you know, one or two, you know, kind of lead leads. And I'd say for
them, a very small percentage want, you know, want to be, you know, lead into being super ugly
or super weak or super, you know, drug addicted or something. I think they're, they often want
to, usually it's someone that has a bit of a brand of what they've done in their career and want to
kind of continue what they're doing well, you know?

Um, so I think, yeah. You know, but I think for supporting and, and down, I think a high
percentage wanna do like the really fun, crazy,
Stacy: you know? Okay. So it's sort of like top 10 on your call sheet, appealing. And then once
you get, once you get to number 11, it's just like a limp and eye patch, a, a
Drew: perfect science.
But yeah. What do you think, John? What, what, what do you think? Yeah, that sounds
John: about right. Yeah. I'd say the top five or, you know, the. The, you know, five leads of the
show probably want to be appealing, you know what I mean, in some way. And, uh, you know,
and then it's hard to break through. It's hard to break through if you only have like five lines in a
thing, unless you're doing something kind of crazy or, you know, noticeable.
So I'd say, you know, once you, you know, that sounds about right. And also, you know, I would
say too. And in the script, an actor, you know, may not know you, probably doesn't know you, is
reading the script and asking themselves like, am I safe? Is this a safe environment for me to
engage in? And if, if the writing sounds like the writers hate the character or dislike the character
or look down on or disparage the character in some way, like they may look at this and be like, I
don't want to be in this environment.
Like, I want to do something. Yeah, I'm with good partners, you know, I'm protected, you know,
the writers, even if the character, you know, Breaking Bad, you can tell they love that character,
like the writers love that character, even though he's doing horrible things, he's going through,
and the love of that character really shines through, even though he's kind of a despicable
human being, you still can't help but kind of love him a little.
And, and I think, you know, as opposed to, you know, something where, you know, I'm sure
we've all read scripts where you're like, Oh, this writer really Looks down on these characters,
really doesn't like these characters, is writing like, I hate these people and, and I, I feel like that's
going to be very hard to cast, you know, something like that.
And, and sometimes, you know, just looking at through an actress perspective, look at the early
stuff, you know what I mean? Like sometimes we've found this, you know, with, you know, test
screenings and stuff, often like the first scene or the first couple of scenes. Let's see. You know,
if there's a line that stands out a little too much in one direction or another, it could really color
the whole experience of that character.
Like if the first line of a character is complaining about something or something like that, they
might be like, Oh, this person's a whiner. I don't want to be a whiner. You know? Um, and that
may be the only complaint that character ever does in the entire season, but just be aware of
like how they'll read it.
They'll read their character specifically and, and to make sure, you know, Yeah,
Drew: one other thing. I think the question we've gotten from so many actors when, uh, when
first submitting, you know, early pilot scripts in this phase, uh, is about motivation. It's about their
character's motivation. Like, why am I going to do this thing?
You know, and, uh, you get that question all the time and you need to have a good answer for it.
And the answer may truly be, I need you to get to the carnival so we can introduce this other
character, you know, and they can sniff that out so quickly if it doesn't feel like they're doing
something that's, that feels right.
It's motivated by story. If it's just kind of, uh, a convenient, you know, place to put that actor in
order to move story along in a kind of roundabout way, they can just sniff that out so clearly. And

if you don't have a good answer for why the character is doing X, Y or Z, um, that whole
conversation starts to fall apart.
And I think that's where, like you're saying, John, an actor saying, do I trust this show runner?
Do I trust this? Is this a safe place for me to, you know, bring my best work? And if they feel like,
I'm Their character isn't properly motivated from every scene into the next scene. Um, it starts to
really unravel quickly.
So that's maybe something to really look at too.
Stacy: I think that comes down to honesty. You know, that it's like, uh, you need to write a
character with honesty and who can be honestly played that you're not just moving them around
like a pawn, but they get to be a full grounded, uh, human being with. Um, believable
John: motives.
Drew: Yeah, totally. Totally. You know, like when we were making a movie called No Escape with
Owen Wilson, there were so many moments in that movie where his character had to make a
decision and then do it. And like, and Owen very rightfully was, you know, always really keyed in
on, why would I make this decision in this moment?
Is this the right decision? Is this, you know, is this what I would really do? And we had to really
kind of craft a lot of those moments to make sure he felt like it absolutely was what his character
would do in that moment. Because that movie was all about, like, Instinct in an emergency, in a
crisis. And like, uh, and every decision that character made throughout that entire movie was
kind of like, would my instincts tell me to do this?
And, uh, so we had a lot of those conversations in that movie and I think it, you know, made it a
lot better too, and really helped us performance.
John: And it really helped us going forward to really, you know, shore that stuff up and, you
know, I think too, you know, part of the, the reading the script and then having a discussion with
the showrunners, like to understand the complexity of the character, like, you know, Joe Pickett,
you could read, you know, the script of it and be like, Oh, he's a good guy, you know, that's kind
of boring, like, and we like to say, like, He's doing the right things, but for all the wrong reasons,
he's doing the right things to prove he's not going to turn out like his father to prove he's not, you
know, as damaged as he thinks he is, you know what I mean?
Like he's doing the right things for all these wrong reasons. And that gave us a lot of depth to
talk about with actors. Um, And get the wonderful Michael Dorman, um, to sign on, but we, you
know, when we talked with him, like we got into all that stuff and, you know, we got really deep,
you know, we talked a little bit about this in the last episode, but like the idea of like, just trying to
connect, not trying to sell an actor on like, like, okay, we have, you know, 20 minutes.
We got to sell this guy on doing our show more like, Hey, we're going to connect with this human
being. We're going to, we're going to use. This show as a reason to, uh, get into some of the
deeper stuff of life and to, you know, to be almost an excuse to like, talk about real stuff. Talk
about growing up with, you know, violence or alcoholism.
Talk about, you know, talk about whatever, you know, whatever stuff you have in your life that
drives you and, and gives you meaning in what you do and, and. To me, that's, that's the best
version of those, you know, those
Drew: meetings. That's a, I really want to highlight that, what the point you just made too. And
like, that's a, that's an element that you're particularly good at John is really finding, getting into
those conversations with actors as far as like their background and what, you know, you can

kind of quickly see what about.
You know, if they're having the conversation with you, there's something about the script they
like, you know, something about the character they like, and otherwise he wouldn't even be
talking and so kind of trying to figure out what from their life is, is kind of motivating that interest
and what about the character they identify with and, and really trying to dig that out in these
private conversations and trying to find, You know, what, what elements of this character and
what scenes are really, you know, resonating for this person on a, on a personal level, um, and
trying to play more to that.
But, uh, you know, I think asking all those questions, actors love, you know, being vulnerable.
That's what they do for a living. And, um, they, they do like talking about their past and kind of
opening up most of them, especially if it's around a story like this, that they can kind of, you
know, work through some of their own stuff through a fictional character is like kind of a, you
know, something that not many people get to do.
And so, uh, but yeah, to that point, finding the personal, truly, like specifically what the personal
connection is.
Stacy: I want to point out that you guys have are talking about the actor meeting. Right? We
sort of, we didn't mention it. It's like, Hey, you've got the script. It's gone out. Somebody's read it.
They're not like, yeah, sign me up.
I don't know. They're gonna want to meet with you over zoom or in a coffee shop or, you know,
and depending where you are, you're going to have your little favorite restaurants, your little
favorite hotels where you like to meet, whatever. And then, and then, or so often through Zoom
now, and you're going to have that, that conversation.
How long do they usually last?
Drew: It depends. Like, I feel like there's a spectrum of these meetings that exist, and some are
like the actor Reddit truly likes it and wants to meet, and you typically get that, you know, vibe,
you know, quickly. And then there's the actor whose agent said. Hey, we like these guys.
We also represent these guys. Just take the meeting. You know,
you can pretty quickly tell when that's the case as well. And if people are polite and respectful,
it's not like, uh, you know, uh, if they're taking the meeting, they're not going to come in and, uh,
you know, ask why they're here and who are you and, you know, typically don't get that. But, uh,
but you can kind of.
Tell how much they like the writing and the character pretty much right away. And if they do like
it, then that meeting tends to last quite a while, you know, maybe an hour, maybe two. And, uh,
uh, but then other ones might be, you know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes if they're just doing it
because their agent told them they should, you know.
Stacy: And in that meeting, you know, you're saying that actors like to get vulnerable, and it's so
true. They like to talk about themselves and their backstory and compare it to the characters and
you know, like, Hey, I have this experience, the character has this, but you as the show runners
are meeting them there, right?
Like you, it's sort of like you offer a vulnerability or a personal story and then they come back
with one. Like you prove that it's a safe place and then it's going to be collaborative and fun
because you also are sharing things from your.
Drew: Yeah, I think that's right. And, and what is your experience of them as an actor and what
in your mind makes them so perfect to play this character?

I think that's an important thing to think about before the meeting because, you know,
sometimes they're like, why do you want me? And you're like, well, because you're amazing,
you know, and like, that's not enough. You need to, you know, like. There's a, there's an element
of Joe Pickett that does this that I think is really important and that's something I've seen you do
in, you know, I don't know, there's the more you can make it personal.
Like they're the only choice in the world for you. Um, you know, and there's always a list. There's
always several options. There's always, you know, if this person says, no, we're going to move
on to this person, you know, there's always some, some version of that. Uh, and it's, I think
genuine when we're in a meeting with someone and we're trying to commit to them in that
moment, they are the only person in the world to do this.
And we have to think that way too. And, uh, So I don't think it's, you know, disingenuous. I think
it's, it's very
Stacy: real. That list thing was such a shocker for me to be like, Oh my God, you get this list. It's
like that. It's full of names that usually, like, I don't know a lot of the names. Sometimes you have
to look them up on things like, Oh yeah, that person or whatever.
But it's, you know, when you're an actor, you think. That the casting will just be like, I wrote this
role for Melissa McCarthy and she's the only one who will do, and I'm going to get this to her.
And that's it. And it's like, no, no, you're nobody's even going to talk about who the right person
is. First.
They're going to talk about who's available. Do you know what I mean? Who is legally allowed
to work in Canada? That's going to chuck.
John: Who's going
Stacy: through a divorce and needs the money and is saying, yes, who hasn't seen their kids in
two years? And they're saying, no, who it's like, who's available. That's such a big part of it.
John: It's
Drew: a huge part of it, and
John: you're right. It's never, it's never the first idea. You know what I mean? Just straight up.
Like, it's, you know.
Stacy: You guys still have never gotten Meryl Streep on a list. She's never, Meryl Streep's
John: never even
Drew: made a list, yeah. She's off the top end of the list, yeah. But it, I mean, when you get
lucky though, it ends up being the, really the right person. We like try to take a real zen
approach in this casting zone where it's, it's never the first idea.
But it often ends up being like the absolute, like Mike, it's hard to imagine Joe Pickett being
anyone but Michael Dorman. I mean, that is, it's hard to imagine, you know, David Crash being
anyone but, uh, you know, Taylor Kitt. She was just so perfect. And then we did season two and
we're like, we need a, you know, young twenties version of this guy.
And we found Keean Johnson who was amazing. You know, you just hope that it ends up in that
perfect space. And it always does. We get a bunch of nose up. Some people pass, you get
really bummed out. You're like, Oh, you know, I don't know if anyone else on this list is as good

as the, you know, two guys who just said no.
And then you end up, um, you know, somehow upgrading or making it not upgrading, but, you
know, choosing someone who's better for the role and who's more feels more spiritually
connected to the role. It just, it's like dating, you know, we like to say it's almost like dating. You
might. Go on some good dates and then it not work out and you're bummed out about it.
But ultimately, those not working out leads you to the person that you're meant to be with. And I
think the same is very true with casting. Uh,
John: you wanna be with person who really wants to be with you too. Yeah, exactly. You know
what I mean? The right
Stacy: person for the role is the person who wants the role.
You know, they're bringing that enthusiasm and passion to it. And it's not just there because, you
know, like, I want the role because my career is at a standstill. Any job is a good, no, they really
want this particular job, which, uh, reminds me of putting stuff in the pilot that makes an actor
want to do something.
Yes, there's like depth and breadth and good dialogue and all that, but there's also lots of little
delicious treats, like maybe getting to sing a song or a great speech or a really unusual
relationship or a great, like, image, like, uh. Being in your tighty whities in your RV, you know,
like a great, a great moment.
What, will you guys speak to that?
John: Yeah, like a couple moments, you should have a couple moments that you're like, I bet
the right actor is going to be like, Oh, holy shit. I, you know, yeah, the Stacey's example of
Walter White, like, you know, he's doing his last will and testament in his tighty whities in the
middle of the desert.
I'm like, that's an awesome pilot moment for an actor. Any, you know, a very specific actor is
going to want to do that. And it's the right actor,
Drew: you know, that's right. That's right.
Stacy: Bruce Willis probably wouldn't have wanted to do that.
John: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Nothing stands out. No bad way. Nothing is going to give them the
like, Ooh, I don't want to do something like that.
Um, you know, he's makes a, you know, misogynistic run marker, you know what I mean?
Something like that. And the pilot, we were like, Oh, this guy, you know. Or, you know,
something that like, I don't know, gives you that bad feeling and you want to, you know, you
want to have a couple moments that are great for the actor.
Stacy: Although if you were writing an anti hero, you might want to have that moment, not the
misogynistic moment, because, you know, people sort of don't want to do that, but the moment
where you kill the dog or the moment, you know, the moment where you shove a child off of a
tower or, you know what I mean, something where you do something bad.
John: Yeah. Yeah. If that's a character you're writing, yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. Okay,
and then let's move into, so, okay, you got your actor, you have your, uh, green light, now it's
time to move into, you know, script number four, you know, the, the fourth version of the script,
which is the blueprint, um, you're greenlit, you're off to shoot your show, and now your script

becomes a kind of working document.
As you're. Going from the writer's room to the real world, you're going to start to notice a lot of
things, like maybe a writer said, like, you know, you know, the Cane Corsos, you know, in this
scene, blah, blah, blah, and you're going to have a type of dog and the dog people are going to
be like, Oh, there's no Cane Corsos in Canada, you know, like, what do we do?
And you're like, Oh, that's just, A random big dog, like, you know, they're like, how about
Doberman? So you're like, great, like, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that, um, as you're going
from the specificity of the writer's room to the real world, there, there's a negotiation between
reality and. Um, you know, at the same time, like, Nate Romanowski's gun in the book series is
a very specific gun, and they're like, ah, we don't have that in Canada, and we're like, well, we
need to find a way to get that in Canada, because it's very, that, that's an, that's an important
detail, the specificity of what kind of tree is out front, or what kind of dog, like, that's not really
That's just specificity.
That doesn't necessarily track, um, so there's a whole version of the script that goes through a
revision in this zone
Drew: too. Yeah. You'll do many drafts in prep that are just, there'll be a lot of stars on your draft
that are just changing specificity to match, you know, cause even if you have a conversation
with your, you know, animal handler and you've decided that it's not going to be a King Corso
and it's going to be a Doberman, it still says King Corso in the script and people get confused
and yeah, so you'll have a million of those that are just, you know, changes for reality.
Yeah. Yeah. And as John said, it's just, it's helpful to remember what's important and what's not
Stacy: in that zone. One of the things that surprised me, that's helpful to do at this stage is
listing all the characters right up front and to think, here's the thing. I would say, you know, you
got your slug line interior, you know, men's bathroom, whatever, I don't know why I thought of
that.
Um, so you've got your slug line. And normally, you know, if I'm writing a script, like I don't want
to put that boring stuff up front. I want to just do like a list of the characters that are there. That's,
you know, I want to make it sound like enticing and interesting. And maybe we drop in with like,
there's one little, one little action.
Then we drop into some fun dialogue. And then I kind of pepper the characters throughout.
Maybe I don't even mention them, you know, just like the family is there or whatever, instead of
listing them, but no, no, you really need to just go ahead and make it a little bit boring, but
extremely clear by putting.
All the characters who are in that scene. In the first, you know, paragraph or so
Drew: because you're your audience is no longer the execs that you want to green light or the
actor That you're trying to cast your audience. Now is your crew and yeah, and everyone needs
to you know, know who's in every scene You know, what's what details, you know, what props
need to be there?
What don't you know your audience is specifically your crew now and that changes things
John: for
Stacy: example If you want your golden retriever in the scene You know, you got to mention the
dog. It's not, you can't just be like, it's the, it's the house. The dog's always available to me to be
there. Maybe I want a moment where we, the camera kisses the dog for a second.

It's like, well then you, even though writing the golden retriever there, you know, is there is not
very fun in the script. It's kind of dull to read if you want them to show up on that day or, you
know, if you want the three of them to show up on that day, you got to. And a
Drew: good idea at some point during, you know, your meetings will and your page turns will
say, do you want the dog there or not?
You know, it'll kind of clarify those things, but it's, it's better if you can just do that yourself. And
you, you know, you may not get the opportunity to clarify and then be shooting and being like,
where's the dog? And like the dog's not in the scene. We're like, Oh, but I thought the dog was
always in the house.
You know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
John: We had, we had something like that once. Like Like where there's like five characters in
this house and as we crossed from one side of the room to the other, they were slugged
differently and there were different days that we shot them. And one of the, you know, what I
thought was one of the key characters was listed in one side of the room, but not the other.
So as we cross the room, that character, you know, it was just kind of gone. And I was like, wait,
but where's the character? And it's like, well, she's not listed in the script. And so it's like literally,
I guess. Characters move from one room to the next. You have to be like this person, this
person, this person, this person, this person, cross to the next room.
This person, this person, this person, this person, like sit at the table. You know what I mean? It
kind of reads terrible. Like it's like, you know, and you know, it's helpful to have good writers
around you who can kind of make that sit in, you know, decently. So it doesn't totally destroy the
read.
Stacy: Right. You don't literally list them.
You, you know, it can be like, Missy sips her wine, you know, Joe gives her the side eye. It's not
like you just say Missy, Joe, Lucy, Sheridan. Yeah,
John: eat breakfast, but you can, you know, and it's important, you know, to mention, you know,
cause now you're creating a blueprint. Now people. will have the things that are in your script
there in that scene, but if it's not mentioned in the script and you're like, Oh, you know, where is
this character's car?
And they're like, well, the car isn't listed, isn't mentioned in the script. So we didn't have the car
here today. And, um, those things are just a, you know, it becomes a very technical thing, but an
important, like, you know, your script almost becomes a list of to do items and things to be
delivered.
Stacy: Yeah.
It's just a list of props and cars, and
John: sets, and,
Drew: uh
John: Inventory. It's just inventory at this point. Yeah. Totally. And that, that, it is what it is.
Stacy: And that's good, because that's how it's actually, actually happening.

John: Well, and it's up to you to know which is which, like, is, you know, Drew and I did a movie
and, and, you know, we had this beautiful opening written that, um Or we thought, uh, that was
like on this like Royal yacht and, and then we're shooting this in Thailand and they're like, we're
landlocked.
There's no boats. There's no boats within, you know, a thousand
Drew: miles of here. Uh, we were in Northern Thailand, in case you're wondering how this is
possibly landlocked, but yes, we were in the North side of Thailand.
John: Yeah. And they're like, we can go to Bangkok to, you know, but. Nothing like what you're
describing exists here in time, like it's not going to be anything like this and, and then we, we
said, okay, well, what, what kind of feeling you get the feeling we're going for with this, like, and
they found us like this beautiful kind of palace in the mountains, and it was not far away from like
it.
It, it was so much better than anything we would have thought of. And that's part of, part of the
upside of this phase is there will be things that you can't find that, you know, you really wanted
and in very, like often you will find something so much better and so much more specific. And so
like Drew and I had one scene in, in, in that same movie, like set in a temple and Then we were
out walking one day and we found this like terracotta garden.
We're like, this is so much more specific and more interesting than a temple. Like, let's build the
scene into this. Cause it, you know, and, and it was, it was like this, I don't know, like there's a
way to really elevate the specificity by embracing the world you find yourself in versus trying to
force the world to bend to the script.
Like find what's beautiful about the world and bring your script
Drew: to it. And using that example, it was, you know, set in a Buddhist temple and our local,
you know, Thai line producers saying they'll never, you know, no Buddhist temple. This was
really kind of, you know, they would consider it sacrilegious to split the scene in a Buddhist
temple.
So they're never going to say yes. And you should just, you know, think of something else and
we kept trying to. Push it and be like, okay, well, we can, you know, maybe we build that. Maybe
we build the interior, you know, one room of a Buddhist temple. We really like that idea. It should
feel like the kind of thing that shouldn't be happening in a temple.
That's kind of the point. And we really pushed against that resistance a lot until we stumbled
upon the place you're mentioning, John, that terracotta garden where like, Oh, it could be here.
And that's, you know, it's, it's like a temple, but it's open air. And it had so many other. things that
we loved and we realized like, Oh, we've been pushing this boulder up the hill for all of pre
production, trying to make this work in a Buddhist temple, even being willing to build our own
Buddhist temple, uh, when we realized we just, yeah, there's a better alternative.
John: Yeah.
Stacy: At this point in the process, the writer becomes, um, a bit of a list maker. Do you know
what I mean? Like, what you're just describing is so cool. It's like, oh, collaborative people going,
oh, we've got this problem. We open our eyes. We look around. We find a better location. Oh,
it's this beautiful terracotta thing.
Great. That decision has been made. Awesome. But this is where the writer has to actually put
that into the script. And in TV, that's a very, um, uh, regimented thing. So it might have been the
director and the AD, uh, and the location scout who came up with that idea. Right, but the writer

might not have had anything to do with it, but only a writer.
Is allowed to open up the script and stick it in. Do you know what I mean? And it's at this point
things get, at this point in the process, things get pretty stressful. Especially if you're making
changes for something you're shooting soon. You definitely get a like, we need those pages
soon. We, we, when can we see those pages?
When are we getting those pages? And they're not talking about a beautiful speech or an
incredible moment. They're literally like, when can we get the pages that say. Uh, Doberman
Pinscher instead of Cane Corso, that say valley instead of town, that say, uh, apple orchard
instead of, you know, I don't know, honeysuckle orchard.
Is there such a thing? I'm just making shit up. That say, you know, like somebody has to put
those things in. Anyway, I'm only highlighting that because it's a very weird moment. In the
production, when you realize you've sort of been this writer on this kind of fancy plane of like, I
think lovely thoughts, and then I type them up.
And now it's like, no, fuck, you're in charge of the grocery list and you're just scratching off Apple
and writing in broccoli, but, and yet, and yet you've never been more important to everyone than
scratching off Apple and writing in broccoli. Every, everybody, you got a hundred people going
like, when can we get the list that says broccoli?
And all
John: those hours you spent like looking for the perfect dog for the scene. And you're like, Oh,
you don't have a dog. You just throw that out. in the garbage. You know, like, all right, that's you
have? You know? Oh my God.
Stacy: Same with names. I love a lot of writers. I love choosing names. I just, you lovingly
choose the name.
The name's so great. The name for the business or the name for the cemetery or the name for
the character. And then what's that? What's the, what are they called? Clearances. Clearances!

John: Clearances!
Drew: Nope. How about these
John: four, you know,
Stacy: yeah, sends you a list of all the stuff you're not allowed to say, which is by the way, every
name in the whole world, you're not allowed to call anything, anything, you know,
Drew: it's true.
I would just, uh, one kind of separate point that you were touching on, Stacey in this zone that I
find really important that I wouldn't have known until we. You know, did our first couple of shows
is you're not only we've talked a lot about setting up your characters, you're kind of all your leads
and your pilot and you're kind of, but you're also setting up your locations of your show and your
pilot.
And I think that becomes abundantly clear when you get into pre production that, you know, if
you look at, you know, just using Joe Pickett, for example, like the picket house. Okay, yes, we
know we're gonna spend a lot of time at that house, you know, the, the, you know, Stockman's
bar. Okay, that's a. Definite location.

We're going to spend a lot of time at, you know, the locations that you write that are one offs will
very quickly become very apparent. And, uh, um, and you just can't, it's not that you can't do a
one off location. You just can't do it a lot. I think, uh, up top. So you should be looking at your
pilot script as, you know, trying to set up key locations.
Because I think in the writer's room, there's a tendency to want to write Every scene in a new
cool place and like, uh, you know, keep it fresh and keep it different and interesting where that
doesn't work when it comes to actually then scheduling the show. And when you have, you
know, 16 days to shoot two episodes, you need that kind of continuity of locations and you need
locations to be more than one scene.
Even if it's not for, you know, a couple more episodes, you just, you know, it really helps a ton to
kind of consolidate it. Great. the writing into, um, you know, reusable locations, uh, where, you
know, I think that's kind of a moment of reckoning that we all have, uh, in the, in prepping the
first block and the line producer will say, okay, this spot, do we ever go back there?
Nope. Okay. Figure it out, you know, put it somewhere else. And I think that's, uh, Uh, you know,
really helpful. You don't want a company move for a one page scene to its own location. Uh, um,
it's really a killer.
Stacy: It's also your chance to get creative and to think, uh, in a fresh way about what those
permanent locations.
are going to be, so it's not just crossing things off the list. It's also thinking, okay, can I use a
location over and over? That's a really interesting, like I, uh, I went to Carnegie Mellon and I just
read, uh, the people who were the production designers for friends also went there, they just
won an award.
Anyway, I just read the story. I thought it was so interesting where they were saying. This guy
not only came up with the, you know, the coffee shop and the couch, but he also was pushing
really hard to show the hallway between the two apartments. And I never thought of that. I'm
like, nobody ever does the hallway between the apartments.
And it's so key to that show. Yeah. In Friends they're. Constantly in the hallway between those
two apartments. I bet in the first zillion iterations of the pilot, it was just the guy's apartment, the
girl's apartment, guys, girls, coffee shop, and, and to be creative enough to go, Hey, let's do that
in between space and let's use it all the time.
Yeah. Um, I think that's probably more for like a, a three camera show than the kind of shows we
do, but even so you can do. You know what I'm
Drew: saying? Yeah, no, that's a great example. And that's perfect. Like New York living, it is the
hallway where you run into each other. Like that is such a key location, but I think, you know,
this kind of fewer locations, more work in each location kind of mentality is a specifically TV
thing.
So if you're coming from features and, you know. In a TV. I think this is one of the thing that's
been, uh, pounded into our heads of just how critical it is when designing a season of television,
uh, limiting the number of locations and doing more at each place. Um, and then you can create
room for that one great location.
You just go to one time for, you know, a great four page scene and you go to the top of the
mountain and you only make your crew go up there for one day. And, uh, and everyone
complains about it, but it looks great. And, uh, you can create space to do that if you've Properly
consolidated other scenes, uh, into the same places.

I
Stacy: personally like that more too. Like I have to say, if say it's a big budget thing, I just saw, I
watched something really big budget recently in the pilot and there's too many locations. I have
no attachment to them. So say for example, you're going to have the big cocktail party. That's
very fancy and something exciting happens.
Yeah. You could have that at some. Benefactor's house of a minor character who's going to say
one line and you never see again, or couldn't you just put it at the main character's house?
They're rich too, you know? Yeah. And
Drew: things about their house says something about that character that's way more important
than the distant, you know, uh, kind of, you know, day planning.
Yeah. It's
John: full of meaning. Familiarity. Familiarity is, you know, it's like friends, your example of
friends. Like there's three sets. And you become emotionally attached to all three of those, like
on a pretty deep level. And, you know, when they start, you know, in future seasons, going into
like five or six different apartments, you're like, I don't like these, like, I want to go back to the
places I know and love.
And I feel like, you know, so many, you know, TV star used to be like. You know, one set. It's
cheers. It's the one bar. That's the one location. And there's something beautiful about that
familiarity. One thing I want to just talk about real quick before, uh, moving into the, the
shootable battle plan in the blueprint phase.
One of the things I find really interesting is as you bring your script into, you know, production
and you suddenly have. People who are like real experts on things, like your armor is going to
know more about gun, you know, you know, I'll speak for myself, the armor knows more about
guns than I do and knows more about hunting than I do.
And we're, you know, if we're doing a game warden show, you know, that the animal handlers
know more about the behavior patterns of these animals don't be like, Oh, you know, a horse
would never do this. You know what I mean? Um, and as a writer, you could come into those
like. How dare you? I did all the research.
I know everything. Like, um, or you can come at it like, and listen to them and use, you know,
harness their knowledge. Like use the, the, the, the breadth of knowledge of people who are
experts, each one in their own field. And. You know, our production designer is like, you know,
how you can tell a house has been in a location for years and years is it has old growth trees
around it.
And so we looked for zones and old growth trees where we could build a house, you know,
because it's the wind break around the house. And it feels like that house has been there for
hundreds of years. Like we would have never come up with that. We, I don't know that. Um, but
you know, our production designer knew that and our, you know, props department, they, they
knew a lot about hunting.
They hunt and I don't. And I never have. And so I kind of needed like, Oh, that doesn't work.
That's not how you do this. Like, Oh no, it's, it's, you know, bad form to do this. So that like, and
we were able to use those experts, you know, to rebuild sequences to be more realistic to the,
you know, uh, to the world and to give it more specificity in, in many ways.
And, uh, in a way that really. It embraces knowledge that we just, frankly, didn't have. Jumping
in, so the final script is the shootable battle plan and some of the locations, some of the culling
down locations down to, you know, shootable locations, that's, you know, that's a big part of this.

Drew: Yeah, mentioning locations in the, the.
Previous blueprint might have jumped the gun a little bit. Some of that's kind of, you know, in the
gray area between blueprint and shootable battle plan, but it's all kind of a continuous phase.
Now I'm getting from your, you know, script you sold to, to what's shootable. And, uh, but yeah,
so calling locations is a big one.
Um, you know, too many speaking characters is another big one that we run into a lot. And we
tend to just write way too many characters. And then you look at, you know. You know, ultimately
you get a grid of like, okay, how many, you know, uh, episodes per character? Like we were, you
know, in every show, I feel like we're just like millions of dollars over the mark on cast budget.
When we, uh, when we break it down for the first time, we're like, Oh God, we got to. And that's
been frankly, some of the bigger like writing emergencies we've been in, in pre production have
been related to. This one detail of too many speaking characters, you know, not consolidating
enough material within your leads, you know, that kind of idea.
So that's something
Stacy: I have a good anecdote for that. Okay, I'm gonna use the R word because it was part of
the script. But in Waco season one, there's it ultimately got cut at our son actually played young,
young David crash younger and how so our son was cast in the role. And he, you know, Vernon,
how David crash in real life was, uh, bullied as a child.
And, um, he had learning disabilities that made people tease him. Anyway, so in this scene, it's
supposed to be that he's on the ground as a little child, a little eight year old, and lots of mean
boys have circled him. And they're kicking him over and over and yelling things at him. And And
all the kids are going, Mr.
Because that's what they call it. So that's our word. Sorry about that. But that's from life.
Anyway, then it comes down to shoot it. And we've got the like five, we've got, you know, our son
is on the ground and we've got all the boys to circle him. And the ad pops out and goes, Oh, you
can only afford to have one person talk.
So instead, it can no longer be all the little boys chanting it because then you'd have to pay all
the little boys. If you, if they don't chant it, you pay them a hundred bucks. If they do chant it, you
pay him like 1500
bucks or
John: something. We
Stacy: it all got cut. I mean, it got cut for other reasons, but you know what I mean? That's an
example of, well, you should, you should probably know ahead of time.
Drew: Yeah, that's where you tighten up and shoot the close up of the kid on the ground and
just feet kicking up and depend on loop groups and hope for the best, you
John: know?
Um, and just to break this point down. So if somebody speaks, if someone says even, yup, uh,
you're paying them like sag minimum, like speaking role fee, which is, you know, 1500 bucks or
a thousand, you know, something. And if somebody. Just like nods you pay him like a hundred
you pay him an extra, you know as an extra and the difference in that and you know You don't
pay an extra residuals, but you do pay in that, you know an actor residuals And so it's like all the

characters who just say uh huh, you know, we're like, you know, Joe Pickett You know what?
I mean like all that like you go through the script you realize that there's a whole bunch of people
in our scripts at least I'd say Yes. You know, or hello, or you know what I mean? Just like one
word and you're like, Oh, those, those add up. And you know, that's part of what's tallied as, um,
you know, cost overruns and stuff.
And, and part of it is like. And, you know, to Drew's point, like, if you're not showing their face,
you can have someone in loop group later say the line you want, like, if it's the other end of a
phone call, you can see someone pick up the phone, and then you can cut to the other side,
and, yeah, maybe that, that one might be on the line.
Um. Yeah. But you can have somebody off camera. Yeah, I'm like, Are these... Yeah. I mean,
you can have someone off camera speaking and you can do that with your loop group, which is
like an, you know, post production group of actors who come in and, and do like supplemental
acting for smaller, you know, for background characters and stuff like that.
And that's a, that's a little work around if, if you need to do something like that. But trying to have
the least number of people saying, One or two words, because that just bleeds you to do that.
Drew: That's true. That's true. And then when you're lead cast, you'll get into that, you know, talk
about your top, you know, seven, maybe, uh, of your leads.
If you have one of those characters. In an episode to say one line, that's another thing that will
get, you know, flagged at some point of like, Oh, Hey, we're paying this actor a hundred
thousand dollars an episode. And she shows up, you know, to say one line in episode seven,
uh, you know, it's a hundred thousand dollar line.
And, uh, you know, so you really, you'll get challenged on that too. And in the writer's room, you
don't think about it. You're like, Oh, it's one of our leads. They'll be there all the time. Well, you
know, and you don't really clock like, Oh, this is her only line in the whole, in this whole episode,
but at some point in pre production.
You do have to do that analysis and you do have to make some concessions and you do have
to think, okay, you know, and sometimes you've already made the deal with the actor for eight
out of 10 episodes. And now you're like, Oh God, you know, some of that money wasn't our best
money spent. And, uh, the sooner you're thinking about that, the better and the more money you
can save your, your show for other things.
John: And, you know, in this zone, too, in the shootable battle plan, there's going to be too
many pages, there's going to be too many locations, the AD and the director who are directing it
are going to be like, this is an impossible script, like you can't do it, and it's not like people are
trying to crush your dreams and stuff, it's just always how it is in our experience, I mean, maybe
we just write too many locations, you know, but my sense is that it's always that way, and finding
creative ways of looking at the economy of the script, you know, from a, you know, both story
and a logistical kind of point of view and trying to find like, Hey, this, I have two lines in this one
off location.
Can I pull those lines into like maybe a second scene at the location we were just at? You know
what I mean? And maybe we cut away to something, come back, and we do this little bitty scene
in the same location. Or is there a way I could, you know, just simplify things to make it more
shootable? Um, and I think to Drew's point earlier about, you know, less locations, like, that just
makes it more shootable.
It makes it easier on the actors, on the AD, on, you know, moving production, on the director's
days. Um, The more you can do to help the director have a shootable day, the better it's going to
be for you. And, and the more time they'll have to like get stuff right versus like running from

location to location.
So all those things, like our, I'd say our season one of Waco was an example of like, we're like,
and part of it was we were directing a bunch and stuff, but because we didn't want to thin out the
script pages, we ended up with like, I mean, 20, 30 minutes on the cutting room floor of every
episode that we shot and that we struggled to get shot, you know what I mean?
And all that work, um, ended up being for, we could have thinned out those scripts ahead of
time. And. Spent less time running around shooting stuff,
Drew: you know what I mean? Wake Up Season 1 was that situation where we had never done
TV before, so we were inexperienced. The studio had never really done TV before, so they were
inexperienced.
And the network had done like a lot of reality stuff, so they were inexperienced. I think, you
know, you end up with 20 minutes on the cutting room floor per episode because every layer of
that, uh, of that, you know, team was kind of inexperienced in TV. And, uh, uh, and yeah, and it
hurts to have to... Find ways to cut that much material out.
You know, it's it. Um, I think we finally learned our pacing, um, all the way, you know, into picket
season two. I think it's where we finally kind of found our sweet spot of like page number how
we're, you know, what, what we're shooting to versus what the cuts look like lengthwise. And,
uh, you know, Uh, There's usually a range of, you know, time, some networks have a very
specific time you have to hit, you know, but a lot of them have, you know, streamers now have a
range of like, it can't be shorter than this can't be longer than that.
It's usually, you know, a good five minute kind of delta between the minimum and the maximum.
And that's like a nice way to kind of feel like what like the episode really wants to be. And, uh,
but yeah, it took us a while. We were definitely were Like overstuffing the suitcase every time.
Uh, yeah, and we had to compromise in other ways to get all that material shot.
And, you know, so, um, yeah,
John: yeah. And I'll say season one, a picket, for example, there was that range. There was like
a 10 minute range. It was 45 to It was like 45 to 60 minutes was the range. So 15 minute range
and season one to pick it. We were at the very top end of that range, just bumping the top end of
that range.
The entire season, season two, we were bumping the bottom edge of that range because we're
like, Oh, we're. Exerting so much more time, effort, energy, resources to cram an extra 10
minutes of content into every episode, it's kind of more fun. The pacing feels better if we stay on
the lower end of that. And it's just people are less exhausted.
Like, you know what I mean? You're, you're not. But you know, grinding out and you know, we,
we, you know, we shot season two for less money and less time, you know, um, then season
one and yeah, and I, I feel like the episodes are the better for
Drew: it. Yeah. And I hate to sound too much like a, you know, network executive here, but like
the single most important thing for your show, if you want a season two or a season three is that
when audiences watch an episode that they click next episode, they still have some.
Some attention span and some gas in the tank to move on to another episode. And if you're
riding, you know, 60 minutes per episode, they're far less likely to watch a second episode in the
same sitting, uh, as a 45 minute episode. And that's just, that's reality. And, you know, and they
do really pay attention to those kinds of metrics.

They can see that and they can measure that. And that's like maybe the most important metric
for them is like binge ability, uh, in, in today's TV world anyway. And, you know, so. You know, as
tempting as it is to want to cram all the greatest ideas and, you know, hit the high end of that,
you know, that time episodic length, I think it's, uh, maybe, maybe a mistake.
Stacy: I know a lot of adults don't have a bedtime, but a lot of adults do. They got to wake up at
six. They got kids that got to go to school. They have to go to work, you know? So I have to say
when I have a 45 minute episode, we'll finish one and I'll be like. Oh, let's do another. We can do
another, but if it's an hour, you're like, nope, it's bedtime.
You got it. You know, that's the difference. You can lie to yourself a lot easier.
John: Somewhere, somewhere out there, there's somebody analyzing that data, deciding
whether or not to give that show another season and you know what I mean? Like. Like the, the
click next and finish, you know, if you finish in season versus if you just watch two episodes and
you're done, like they're tracking that.
I've been told that that is one of the primary metrics that some streamers use to determine
whether or not to greenlight a future seasons is like how many people. What percentage of
people actually finish the season?
Drew: Yeah, it's true. Make it easy, make it easy for them to finish. And some of that's just like
the time.
John: So, you know, just to recap, like there's kind of these five islands that your script has to
go through just to get shot, you know, and then there's, you know, all the revisions you'll do in
post and stuff like that. But this is kind of a broad overview of. The differences in, in the focus
and objective and where you're like, all you need to do is get that next, get through that next
phase and get to the next stage.
You don't have to worry about like, Hey, if I cram all this stuff into the pilot, then it's going to be
too much stuff. Like you can focus on getting it, you know, sold and then focus on getting it
Greenland and then like, and. Those objectives are differently, and it's worth thinking about them
in those
Drew: terms.
And just always remember your pilot is just a working document that's never truly done until,
until you've shot it. And uh, I think that, that's the, the key switch for us is like, Oh no, we wrote it.
It's good. It's ready to go. No, it's never ready to go until you've shot the entire thing, basically.
So
Stacy: to recap it, it's one, sell it.
Two, get that green light. Three, lure some awesome actors. Four, unify the crew to be like, what
are we making here? Five, shoot the thing. And then it is just going to become a historical
document because once it's all edited down, you know, it's going to look like something else.
Yeah, that's
John: true. And then you'll do a whole nother rewrite, you know.
on set and then a whole nother rewrite in post and we'll get into that in some other, uh, future,
future day. But, uh, if you like our show, uh, please consider taking a moment to subscribe and
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Thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks.