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John: All right, Stace, you want to
Stacy: take it away? Yeah, yeah, I'm ready to eat the mic like a rock star. If
you want If you want If you want to show,
John: Woo, Ow, Woo, Ow,
Ow, Hey!
Oh my god. I, I can't imagine something that Drew and I would less be willing and able to do
than that. That's true, that's true. That
Drew: was really exciting. Exceptional one, say Skidmark. Oh, thanks.
Stacy: It was all about the commitment. Really, the quality of the songwriting was low.
When I used to do musical theater, that's when I would do harmonies. That's what they would
put me on as like the highest possible shrieking, like, you know, like the high, the super high
squeaky stuff. And it was helpful in the thing, but all the other actors would be like,
Drew: When soloed, yeah.
John: It makes the dogs howl in the background, you know? Totally.
Well, welcome to the Showrunner Show, where every week we demystify some aspect of the job
of show running. For anyone who works in tv, who wants to work in TV or just wants to know
how it's all made. This week, we're talking about your pilot script, or more specifically, the five
primary functions of your pilot script, and how those five functions might not all fit into the same
script at the same time.
Which means you're going to have
Stacy: to rewrite it!
John: Yeah, I mean, I think so often, and myself included, like when I first started doing this, I
would write this script, and I'd be so... Like I need to not change this. It's perfect. I don't like
people are going to try and wreck it and I need to protect it. And I think over time we've realized
like there's a real power in having the flexibility to know, like a script is in a constant state of flux
and to embrace that, you know, to find joy in that change versus a pain in that change.
So yeah, just a breakdown, you know, the pilot script serves many functions, but these five, uh, I
think we'd like to focus on today. Number one, it's a sales tool to help sell your show. Number
two, it's a proof of concept for the network to decide whether or not to greenlight this to be a
show. Number three, it's hopefully a lure for actors, you know, something that gets actors
committed.
Number four, it's a blueprint for pre production to unify your crews and build a show around. And
number five, finally, it's a shootable battle plan. And. You know, these are five very different
objectives. There's five very different phases a script goes through and understanding the
objective of the current phase of your script and adapting that script to the current objective will
help keep you from not getting shipwrecked in any one phase because it's a bigger topic.

We're going to split this into two weeks, so we're going to do the first couple of these this week
and the next three next week.
Stacy: Wait, you didn't read the thing off the list that I thought is so good. This is my favorite
part. The point is to get it made, not to keep it the same. I love that. I find that so helpful because
I, we talk about this all the time, but like, John, you tend to think on the page, you're like, Oh, I
have an idea and it comes out on the page.
Whereas I sit there like, I use my voice memos, I scribble down notes, but by the time I put
something down on the page, I've really completely thought it through. I don't think onto the
page. I think. And then I opened up the page and do it. So for me, I do feel this very protective,
like I don't want it to change because I chose what I wanted in the first place.
Like I wrote what I wanted. So anyway, for me, it's very helpful to have that reminder of like, no,
no, it doesn't matter if you have your 11 billion script in a drawer, like if you wanted to actually
get made. You're going to have to change it sometimes. What do you change and what do you
hold on to? And perhaps even fight back of like, Hey, you asked for this change, but you know,
and we gave it a try, but we decided to stick to that.
Cause you know, that'll be a little bit of the spice too, right? You guys don't do like, you don't
change absolutely everything. Do
John: you? No,
Drew: no, no. And I think from our experience, it's been really helpful to learn. Like there's the
script, there's the pilot script that gets the show made that gets a network to buy your project.
And then there's the pilot script that you ultimately shoot. And those two things that can be, You
know, a lot can be exactly the same, but, uh, there's going to be, you know, those, you know,
John just mentioned these kind of five different functions, you know, um, almost breaking it down
into like the script you start with the, when you sell it and the script you end up shooting, uh, you
know, can have some pretty major differences.
And I think it's helpful to kind of. Think of it as a writer in your, in your own head as two different
scripts, almost where the one you're selling it, you know, we'll go through some of the things we
think are important to have in that script in terms of getting it sold. But you might be thinking in
the back of your head, you know, this story point, I need to include it in the pilot because they
need to understand, you know, this great character that isn't introduced until this, you know, one
story point comes up.
But I know when I go to shoot this, that this is better off in episode two. And, uh, and, and it's
okay to kind of. Game it a little bit and to kind of, you know, just consider those two, you know,
these two scripts as almost different, different
scripts
John: altogether. When you say game it too, like it's, it's okay to game it if you're willing to do
extra work to get things through different phases.
Um, and you know, I think, you know, gaming it, you know, almost sounds like you're like taking
the easy route, but it's actually a harder route, but, um, tends to have a better outcome.
Drew: Yeah. And I think, you know, one example we'll look at is Joe Pickett season one. We
rewrote a pilot before we sold it to a network that the studio had hired us to write a pilot based
on, you know, this book series.

And we crammed that pilot script so full of like every major character had to be introduced. You
know, we had to get to, you know, this one major plot point, I think at the end of a very long act.
And that ended up being, that story point ended up. Ultimately, once we sold it, you know, the
network was like, we got to slow this down, you know, we have, but this is, you know, it's all
great.
We like to know where the story is going because they're usually making that decision just
based on this one script. They don't have, you know, the rest of the season and what's in your
head, um, typically at their fingertips. So when we got into the room after we sold it, then it
became, you know, let's slow this down.
And that story point that was in the middle of episode one ended up being, you know, Um, The
end of episode one and we just basically our original episode one became episodes one and
two Essentially. Yeah,
John: which is great. We essentially got to take all those details we had in the pilot and You
know spread them out over two episodes fill in some of the gaps and you know You know what I
mean?
We got two scripts out of the material that was, that we had crammed into one script. So yeah,
just to, just to clarify, so script number one is, you know, this sounds callous, but is essentially a
sales tool. You know, your first, your first pilot script, hopefully it's, you know, a piece of art that
comes from your like heart because that, that does in fact matter.
Um, obviously, and we do this because we love it. We like to say we do this for the love of it.
And sometimes we get paid, you know, and that we find it helpful to keep that kind of separate in
our minds. Uh, but the first pilot. Is primarily a sales tool. The objective of that version of the
script is to sell your show.
Um, the primary, you know, audience is execs at networks and studios. Um, needs to stand out
from the crowd. Like, it needs to, it needs to feel special. And like Drew said, like, you know,
season one of Pickett. You know, we had two characters that didn't show up. We, we were
essentially adapting book one of the book series into the se the first season.
Uh, but two of the, like most amazing characters from the book series don't show up until book
three. So we found a way to wind their stories. into not just into the first season, but into the pilot
so that you're meeting these big, bright, flashy new characters in the pilot and not waiting for,
you know, if you have some, some detail of your script or some detail of your series, you really
want people to realize like, you know, it turns out this guy has superpowers or, you know,
whatever.
Make sure you see some element of that in the pilot so that people are at least asking the
question because they, they may read none of your other materials. They, they may not take a
pitch, they may not, um, engage in any other way other than reading this pilot. I think
Stacy: it's okay if you're landing a great character like that.
Like I think Drew, you had mentioned earlier something like the big set piece, which I assume
you were talking for Nate, right? And that it was gonna be in the pilot, or it was in the pilot and
then it got scooched to the end of episode
John: two.
Drew: Yeah, we were, we had originally found out dead on the woodpile on like page 20 of the
pilot.

And then that ended up being, Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. They ended up being the episode end of
episode one. But yes, the Nate, the Nate point you're making,
Stacy: I was going to make the point that if you say like, it sounds like what you're saying, uh, is
that as far as like cramming the pilot as a sales tool full of everything that maybe you've got a
long pilot and you've stuff in a whole giant, you know, set piece or something with all your main
characters, but as you revise it, I mean, Yeah.
Tell me what you guys think about this. You could always, um, just hint at them or land them.
Like you show the character, you include the character in the pilot, but you don't do a full blown
set piece or a full scene with them. You maybe have like a moment that hits at them. And then
even in the action, you could say something about like, meet so and so the most amazing
character.
You put something really cool in the parentheses to describe them and something like, we'll
meet him again soon, or something that basically just says like. Don't worry about it. You're not
getting the full meal here, that's just an appetizer, but it is coming soon.
John: Well, I'd say as long as it hints at the spe like, if there's something special about that
character, that's gonna be a, you know, a seminal character in the series and, you know, really
in your mind, you're like, this series, like, this is such an important character for this series.
I'd say, like, doing a, you know, bumps into this guy and, you know, and you're like, you will get
to know him better later. Like, it kinda gives you very little to go off of where... You know, if you
could show in some way, you know, that, that care, like what makes that character awesome.
Yes In the pilot, you know what like, you know, if the character is a magician you see him do a
magic trick or you know Whatever.
I'm just you know,
Stacy: it's a hint. It's a hint of the character, but it's not a bland hint It's a hint that actually lands
them that contains their essential nature of like hunters hunt magicians do magic. Yeah
seductresses
John: seduce We worked with a guy who, uh, had been a part of the CSI team before that show
was sold and that was a part of their mantra is like, let's show all the tools in the toolbox in the
pilot.
So the networks, when watching CS, you know, when reading the pilot script, they go, Oh, they
can do this and they can do that. And they like, it, it just, you know, I would say, you know, with
that pilot, you know, for the, that first You know, this first period, like, show all the tools in the
toolkit. You know, if, if, uh, I don't know, Joe Pickett is a game warden, let's see him do
something dangerous that shows, like, why this is a dangerous and exciting job.
Like, let's see that. We, we put that right in the teaser, you know. Right, right. Like, why is this
job worth my time to, to look at and to focus on?
Stacy: If you're going to have animals, have animals. If you're going to have horseback riding,
have horseback riding. Yes. Fights, have fights. Crime, have some crime. Yeah, that's exactly
right.
Family stuff, throw some
John: of that in. Yeah. Yeah. And part of it too, like later, like your audience is going to want to
know what they're watching. Like, is this a, is this a scary show? Is this a show I can watch with
my family? Is this a, you know, kind of show I'm going to cry a lot during? Like, you know what I

mean?
What, what is this kind of show? And to give some sense of that, um, in the pilot to the, to the
readers and the execs and everyone is, is a good idea.
Stacy: You said, uh, the, the purpose, number one, you said the five primary functions of your
pilot script function. Number one is to sell it. I just want to mention a little something here of like,
sometimes people even skip that step.
I think lately people maybe sometimes sell things based on a pitch instead of the script. Um, but
there are still many instances you guys have done it many times where you do write the pilot
and sell it. It might be that you've written a spec. You know, a sample, in which case you might
also be using that to get, uh, staffed in a room that, you know, the, the listener might be, or it
might be that you've hooked up with the producers or the studio and they request a pilot.
They want a pilot to go sell it to a network. That would be, I think the other circumstance,
Drew: but that's right. And I think one of the main differences to her, one of the main things that
a script. Gets you is, uh, is the ability to maybe attach an actor or two, you know, I think it's very,
very difficult to attach an actor to a project.
Um, if there's no script for them to read, you know, and some people are able to do that, you
know, some people have worked with actors numerous times and, you know, kind of have just
an open invite to attach, you know, that does exist, but it's very rare. And I think, uh, a lot of
times people will write on spec or maybe the studio or production company will pay a little bit for
a, for a.
Pilot, you know, draft, uh, in order to kind of get it to talent agents and start to get it in the hands
of actors and, uh, and to attach an actor. And I think in the sales process, you know, attaching
an actor, you know, we've talked about this before and probably will again, just how, uh, the
process of, of packaging and selling and, and there's, you know, perhaps nothing more valuable
than attaching a meaningful actor to a project before taking it out to networks.
That's absolutely true. So it can be worth it. It can be worth it. Even if you're, you know, doing it
on spec or something, if you have it and you know, the script is going to be good, uh, it can, it
can be worthwhile to, to even if right on spec for that reason.
John: Yeah. And I think too, if you, if you're less experienced, you know, if you're not a known
commodity, like if you're.
Um, like, you know, for our first season of WAKO, you know, we had, we'd written it as a feature
as a movie and then, uh, uh, studio was like, Hey, if you make this, you know, limited series,
we'll greenlight it. We're like, great. And so we, you know, worked, you know, on our own,
breaking it out into six episodes and building them out.
And we had written four of the six. And we could show those to net, you know, networks. And I
mean, nobody wanted them exactly like that. They're like, okay, we'll buy them if you bring in
some more writers and I'll flesh this out better. Um, and we learned a lot about what's different in
TV versus movie.
Like we, that process was really good for us though. That moment. It kind of hurt, you know,
because we're like, wait, but we did it so good, didn't we? Um, but, you know, it, it was helpful
going through that process and, you know, for us, we kind of needed to spec it at that point just
to show we can do this. We can work in the TV space.
And so, you know, that, that being said, like now we, you know, we've, we've sort of run our
anecdotal stats, you know, and our specs tend to do less well than our pitches, just generally

speaking. Like, I feel like we sell more as pitches, we get better deals as pitches, you know,
because like, once you have a spec script there, it does, you know, on a, on a deal making, you
know, side.
You've already invested so much into it that the buyers know that and, you know, maybe feel like
they won't have to pay you that much. They'll, they'll make your show. You should just be happy.
We make your show, which, you know, is thrilling. Um, but also, you know, put, it puts you in a,
maybe at a disadvantage deal wise, um, which is something maybe to think about is, you know,
business wise.
Oh,
Stacy: interesting. I first, I thought you were saying that you just sell more pitches than you sell.
Spec pilots, but you might be saying, Hey, even when you do sell the spec pilot, even when you
do the pilot and it sells, you still might get less money than you would have if you had sold it as
a pitch. Yeah, but honestly, anytime a show actually gets made, that's so much the golden
goose that like, who cares about 30 here or 50 there?
No, it's true.
Drew: But the pilot script, like if you do sell a pitch and then they agree to pay you for the pilot,
it's usually at your highest rate that you've made, you know, or the year, you know what I mean?
That's usually really good money at that, that face. I do. There is logic. And if you, if you think
you can sell it.
Without a, without a pilot script, then, you know, you'll do well writing the pilot. And that's frankly,
when they buy your show, that's the only part of it that's typically guaranteed is the pilot writing
piece of it.
Stacy: Yeah. Good point. Yeah. You can also always write the pilot and then just keep it to
yourself, which is something we're talking about for a project that we're kicking around amongst
ourselves in a very, WGA, Safeway, nobody's seeing it, it's just in our heads,
John: but uh, Yeah, we're not making any money, not
Stacy: making any money, we're not talking to any producers, but it's possible to do something
and then just when you go out to pitch it, just don't even say that you've got, don't show that to
anyone, you know, you can do that too.
John: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But then you have to be willing to, if they have notes that unravel
the structure of that, um, uh, that you can't then, you know, go, well, I've already written it and
your notes are invalid. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, one other, uh, example I want
to use is from our own experience too.
In Waco, that first season of Waco, we ended the first episode originally in the pilot Um, Uh,
with, uh, the ATF raiding Mount Carmel, like this big bombastic, you know, we got a sense in the
teaser that this was coming and then we built up to it over the course of the pilot and it was this
big bombastic moment and then we sold it.
And the network's, you know, big note is like, Hey, we don't get to know any of these people
before they're in a crisis. Can we slow it all down and get to know everyone better? And, and
eventually, you know, that raid moved to episode two and then it moved to episode three, like.
We ended up slowing it way down where it's, you know, the top of episode 3 of 6 episodes.
So it, it moved almost, you know, nearly to the midpoint of the series and, and I feel like the
show was better off for it. So that, that's, that tends to be our, like, let's cram everything we can
into the pilot. And then once we get into the writer's room, we're like, okay, let's slow everything

down and make everything.
Um, you know, earn everything and like, slow it all down, really take your time with it. And that,
that tends to be our, our process from A to B. Could find
Drew: like, what is that, you know, perfect equilibrium kind of continues into post where, you
know, that Waco example, we ended up, you know, starting episode one with a bit of the raid,
you know, later, that's something that we did in post cause we did slow it down and it worked
really great, but then it kind of became like.
Everybody knows this raid is going to happen. Are we waiting a little too long for it? And, uh, and
so we just did a little, you know, editorial magic where we opened with the raid and then we cut
back in time and then kind of continue on as we did. And that seemed to be like the perfect
balance. So it's, it's one of those calibrations that it's never over in the script phase.
It's always, it's helpful to keep that in mind where it continues, uh, you know, through production
and into editorial.
Stacy: And I was gonna, I was gonna, um, jump on. You keep talking, John, about like slowing
things down. And I just want to say, I'm not sure if that's quite the right word. It's like you slow,
it's more like you spread it out because it's, because what you had to do, if you take that
exciting.
Raid, and you move it to the midpoint, right, you move it to three, you then had to, you guys had
to come up with other stuff that was also life and death stakes, thrilling, tense. You had to find
those and put them in one and put them in two, do you know what I mean? It's not like you just,
it's not like you just had three episodes of two person conversations.
You know what I mean? Like you had to have other, and then, and that can be hard. I think, I
think that's why rewriting, some people don't like rewriting or it can be hard. It's like, well, I'm
going to have to come up with something else that's scary. And that's difficult when you got the
blank page for a moment.
And that's when it is nice to have a writer's room and be like, who has an idea for a thrilling
moment? You know,
John: yeah, that really, that was terrifying when it was like, okay, the raids are not going to
happen until deeper. We're like, Oh, what do we do?
Stacy: So is it going to be boring as shit for three episodes?
John: Yeah,
Drew: we always knew we wanted to do a Ruby Ridge element and we felt like that gave us a
little bit of that excitement, you know, early. Um, but that was something we really had to fight
for. I mean, in terms of a story where we, you know, We always thought the connection between
Ruby Ridge and Waco was so important and it gave us like a real tense kind of episode one,
you know, um, FBI, you know, standoff, which we really liked.
But then even in editorial, the network is like, do we need Ruby Ridge? Does it, you know? It's
just kind of a different place. It's a different thing. And then we really fought, you know, to, to
keep it. And then I really enjoyed, you know, when the show came out, just how many, you
know, how much commentary I read around, like people not knowing that those two events were
so connected and everything.
I think it really worked in the end, but it was, uh, but we really had to fight for that.

Stacy: That actually, that'd be a great example. You know, earlier I was saying, when do you,
you get a note? When do you say, yes, let's take it. I'll take it enthusiastically. And when do you
not take the note? When do you be like, I tried to take it.
I hear you. I respect you. But I gotta, I gotta stick to my, stick to my guns here, whatever the
phrase is. And I feel like that's a perfect example of, you guys saw, like this makes it, keeping
Ruby Ridge keeps it more historically accurate and highlights the importance of how did we get
from there to here, you know?
And it's just exciting. It's cinematic, you know.
Drew: And it shows how the FBI didn't just come into Waco, like, you know, having never seen a
situation like this before. And, you know, this being a novel experience for them, this was, you
know, directly related to experience that they just had five months earlier, you know, and, and,
um, where mistakes were made.
And yeah, we felt like it had totally informed the whole experience in a way. But again, they,
sometimes I think. Networks will, I, in our experience, we'll kind of, I think sometimes try to
simplify everything to the point of it, uh, taking a lot of the complexity out. I think sometimes they
think the audience won't track, you know, a lot of things and that needs to be simpler, simpler.
And, uh, I tend to think that, you know, someone tuning in to watch Waco is. Paying attention to
the story and is probably knows a little bit about it. And it's maybe not just a doesn't need the
simplest possible version of the story And and so that's where we tend to you know, push back a
lot and at
John: least on that show yeah, well and I think to like that being said I feel like we may have
spent too much time in all the Details of that.
And that that is something we thinned out a lot when we got into post. Like, I mean, luckily, you
know, they were supposed to be 42 minute episodes. And, uh, we didn't realize we accidentally,
uh, you know, our first cuts were all like 75, 80 minutes. They were way too long. They were like,
Oh, God. Um, it was, uh, Kind of showed our inexperience.
We're like, no, no, no, these will play really fast. And then they didn't One
Drew: point we thought of pitching the network of expanding it from six episodes to seven
episodes because because we had so much extra stuff, but uh But no, we just tighten the
screws. Yeah, totally.
John: We're like, Hey, that'd be free money, you know, but it, but the stories just fell apart when
you, when we tried to do the, we did about 10 minutes of analysis.
We're like, Oh, this is never going to work. So let's move into script number two. So you've sold
your script. Um, you're at a network, you have a script sold. The network wants to put together a
writer's room and see what you come up with. This is script number two, proof of concept. Um,
so, you know, the network will inevitably, 100 percent of the time, have a couple thoughts on the
pilot.
A couple things they want to rethink or talk about or discuss or change. Um, and I would just
say, you know, beware. This is, this is the, the zone where, you know, 90 percent of projects die.
You know, you. Get into this. Maybe there's a mini room. I mean, writer's guild is, uh, um,
renegotiating the idea of the mini room.
Um, we've done those, uh, ourselves, uh, and you know, it's been kind of helpful, but you know,
it's also kind of a problem, um, because, uh, it's a lot of, it can be a lot of work for less money.
Uh, less guaranteed weeks, but I feel like there's a zone here. So you've sold your script and

you're like, they love it.
They love my script. They really want to make my script. And then they give you notes and
they're like, okay, but they want me to change my script that they love, that they want to buy.
And it is this zone where if you take their notes, literally. And you do everything they suggest,
like it may be, you know, it may be the head of the network giving you a note here and it may be
an intern that they're like, Hey, everyone just pile on, just throw in your notes, you know?
Um, and you don't, yeah, and you don't know whose notes are whose, and it's up to you to have
a perspective to, you know, a lot of writers, what they do is they sort of divide it in threes, you
know, 30 percent you take 30 percent of the notes you. make some change, some variation of
their notes for 30 percent of them.
And 30 percent you say, Hey, I tried these and they didn't work.
Stacy: I like your math on that.
John: 10 percent is for magic. Well, 10 percent is do whatever you like. Yeah, I know. I know. I
know it's not. 33. 33 infinity percent. Yeah, whatever. Um,
Stacy: Well, I was thinking, you know, like say with the network, like hopefully they do what they
do and they know what they're doing. Hopefully they're not so like, we don't know.
We just do what we like, you know, hopefully they've got some sort of brand of like, they do true
crime and they do it with female leads, or they do macho, you know, things sit in a man's world
or they do family comedies or they like, hopefully they've got something. That they do a style
that they specialize in and probably with a network.
They're probably going to have a few of them. It's probably, you know, like, but like lifetime and
FX, they each have a brand. They're two different brands. Do you know what I mean? So when
you've sold your project, you have it, you have it one way in your mind, but then you're meeting
up with the network. And so you've got to turn it into their brand.
Do you know what I mean? I feel like that's where most of the notes are going to come from.
John: It's true. Yeah.
Drew: I think they often have a show that they're, you know, they really know how to market to
this show's audience, you know, and, and it can be, you know, they say, you know, we have
Yellowstone. It's a huge hit.
We know how to market to the Yellowstone audience. And you might think, well, okay, well our
show is not Yellowstone, but, but it's helpful to kind of understand where they're coming from
and see what about your show is like Yellowstone or what that audience will like about your
show and to kind of start thinking about it in that way, I think is, is really helpful.
To, you know, to seeing your show actually get made
Stacy: to be like, we are going to advertise your show on that show that we've got. That's a big
old hit. You know, that's, that's a great thing for you. Let's them have enough of a Venn diagram
that, uh, audiences will want to see it, that you'll get
Drew: some conversion.
Best, like, paths to success for a new show, too, is kind of drafting off of, you know, a show that
they already have that is already successful that has an audience and that you can, you know,

kind of siphon some of that audience, um, from that show that's, you know, hugely
John: helpful.
Stacy: Remember, did you guys see Too Funny to Fail?
Oh, I
John: love that documentary
Stacy: so much. So, so fun. So anyone who hasn't seen Too Funny to Fail, you have to see it,
it's so hilarious. It's about, it's a documentary about the making of the, uh, Dana Carvey's, uh, ill
fated sketch comedy show that had all these stars, and, but anyway, they were drafting off of
Home Improvement.
Home Improvement, yeah. But none of them had ever bothered to watch Home Improvement,
so they were drafting off of this, like, sweet, wholesome family show, and then they go into this
just absurd, raunchy, I think marijuana fueled comedy fest, where... To say the Bill Clinton thing.

John: Oh yeah, Bill Clinton was like breastfeeding a whole bunch of puppies in the first, first
skit.
And it's like, and they, they said they watched it. You can see their numbers just drop off a cliff.
And
Drew: the Hope Improvement episode they were drafting off of it was like this like super
emotional cancer episode. That was like, it wasn't their typical episode at all. It was like their
saddest episode ever.
Oh my God.
John: It's so
Stacy: worth watching. So funny. But that's a great example of like, hey, they made the show
that they wanted to make. They didn't, they didn't, uh, alter it to match the network and it didn't
last very
John: long. Yeah. And they had maybe the greatest collection of comedy geniuses, like all
under one roof and lasted like three episodes.
You know what I mean? It was like everyone. And, um. Oh my God. So funny. You know, one of
the analogies I like to make in this zone, this kind of proof of concept zone, is to think of
ourselves as a, like a tailor, like a craftsman, like a tailor, like, you're going to make a suit for the
network. And if you're like, I, you know, the thing I love to do, I love to make double breasted
suits and they're like, we, we don't know how to wear a double breasted suit.
That looks, you know, bad on us. Um, you can insist on making a double breasted suit, but that
suit will hang in their closet. You know what I mean? They won't, they won't wear it to the big
event. And I like to think in those terms, like to find the craftsmanship in. in the details and you
know to tell the story you want to tell there's a reason they bought your show there's a reason
they bought it they love some aspect of it you know some aspect that i'm sure you feel deeply
about but if they don't know how to sell the version of the show you've created It just won't go,
you know, like I remember Drew and I early on in our, in our feature career, someone, you know,
told us like, Oh, all the studios now are run by the marketing departments.

Like the green light is given by the marketing department. If they don't know how to, you know,
cut a trailer from your movie, uh, it'll never happen. And that's really informed. Okay. Make sure
there's good trailer moments. You know, we try, you know, to think of our trailer moments and,
and, you know, in your proof of concept or, or even before it's good to have a couple of trailer
moments, a couple of moments where you're like, Oh, this is, this is gonna, uh, I don't know, be
a part of how they sell my show.
Um, because if they can't market your show, nobody you'll see. See it, you know, and that's, it'd
be, I don't know, that's a
Drew: sad thing. You know, one thing you have, uh, you know, here in the outline that I don't
want to miss too is like in this zone of this proof of concept zone is that, you know, when
accepting or getting receiving notes from the network on your pilot script.
You know, this experience will be kind of your own proof of concept you'll have, you know, that
network will have 10 other shows like yours, 10 of the pilots that they're also giving notes on to
other show runners and the experience that they have with you in this zone is going to
dramatically affect whether they want to make your show or not, just their experience with you
as a, as a show runner and as a partner and as a collaborator, um, it's not saying you have to
accept all their notes.
I mean, you know, we'd like to say that. Yeah. We don't have to accept notes. We just have to
show that we heard the note, tried the note, and it can explain why it didn't work. And, and rather
than just, you know, wholesale rejecting notes or, you know, if you're a problem child in this, this
zone, your show's never going to happen because they have too many other options.
And if they think you're a pain in the ass in this, you know, right out of the gate in your pilot, uh,
notes process, um, You're not going to, the show is not going to get very far.
John: Yeah. Like when we do auditions, when you audition actors, for example, you know, they
may do a perfect take and we'll still give a couple notes just to see how they react just to see,
Hey, you know, do they have.
Can they only do one version of things or can they, you know what I mean? Can they try and it
doesn't mean they're doing it wrong, you know, it doesn't mean we didn't like what we saw, like,
but you know, it will give a note and just see how they take it. You know, try this one a little, you
know, let's see a little more anger in this next take.
And, and then you can get a sense of their range. And I, I think some of that is what the
networks are doing in this phase. They're kicking the tires on you as a showrunner, like Drew
said, and, and getting a sense of like, if you're like, What do you mean more anger? Like, this is
perfect. Like, how dare you, you suits don't get it.
Like, if you're that guy, they're going to be like, ah, shit, you know, this is, uh, like they want their
show to go too, but they're going to be like, Oh, we either have to bring in someone else to help
us navigate this personality or kill it. And, um, and if you're,
Stacy: you know, you say that, but haven't you heard a million stories about a giant ass hat who
gets a.
It sells a show and it turns into a mega hit. Oh, for sure.
John: It does happen. No,
Drew: no, no. It does happen. And that usually, you know, happens despite that trait,

John: I think. And it probably usually
Stacy: happens to somebody who's a star.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot more common than not that, uh, that kind of personality, uh,
sees their projects never make the screen.
You know, that's, I think a lot more common. Yeah.
John: That's heartening. Well, yeah. And it, it's always worth thinking. You know, a show down
the road or two shows down the road, not like it's never about this pilot. It's never about this
show. Like, you know, if you're good to work with and you're working well with your partners,
they're all going to end up at different networks and different, you know, your reputation will
spread in that way.
And if you're. You know, like Drew and I, when we were coming up, like, you know, there's a
number of people we were like jealous of or like, wow, they have this big hit thing and we're, you
know, you know, hitting singles and doubles and, you know, um, we were. Good partners to
work with and, you know, kept things on time on budget, you know, always made people's
money back.
And, uh, that consistency has proven, you know, a lot of these people we were jealous of are
gone. Yeah, that's true. And we're like, you know, refuse to do any notes and, you know, and,
um, and that that reputation spreads. People hear that, like we hear that, you know, with actors,
with writers, with like, You know what I mean?
Like we, we've asked our, you know, casting director for example, like, Hey, if you know
someone's like gonna be a problem, like please just don't even put 'em in front of us. Like we,
we just, we like, we have a, you know, it's the no assholes policy. Yeah, . Yeah. Yeah. And it's
good. It's important. It is. 'cause there's enough to talented people willing to like just put their all
into something.
Um, uh, that why would you? You know, have to like suffer through and networks don't have to
suffer through, you know, with, with their problem children
Stacy: either with a movie, when, you know, it's going to be two, three months, you can just grin
and bear it. You can just be like, these people are terrible to work with, but it'll be over soon.
But with television, oof, you really do want to have nice part. Yeah, you can be
John: married together for a long time, for
Stacy: a long time. Yeah, that's true. Even just one season is so
John: long. That's true. That's true. It's true. And yeah, you live or die by the, you know, the
partners you have in, in those situations. And, and, you know, your, your execs, execs will tell
you, you know, if you listen, like we find in notes calls, this is something I find very helpful is
early on, I used to feel like we had to have all the answers on the, on the call.
And like, you know, I get all stressed out, like I have to prove everything. You know, in the room
on, you know, and over time we've learned, like, if we like, Oh, you know, that's, you know, that's
an interesting note. Like, let us think on that. Or, um, we tend to respond instead of a
counterattack of a, you know what I mean?
Just saying like, Oh, that's, you know, we're, we're listening. We hear you. Let us look at, um, let
us look at the script through this lens or, you know, whatever, like something that shows like,
Hey, I'm listening first. Before I'm just talking over you while you're wrong to have a note, um,

and I
Stacy: feel like good execs on call, they jump in with the same thing.
Good execs are like, I, you know, I don't expect you to come up with the answers right now. I'm
just telling you this is what we're looking for. This is what we want. And then, and they, they say,
you know, we can talk about it now or, or you can, you know. Go talk amongst yourselves. And
then you say something like, yeah, actually, this is great.
We're going to go circle the wagons. We're going to talk about it, throw around some ideas. I've
already got some cooking right here, you know, whether you do or not. And then, you know, that
everybody just sort of agrees. We're not going to do this in real time, right? We're not going to
have a brainstorming session right here.
Are we like, no, no, we're going to go off. Talk about these and then, and then come back.
John: I
Drew: would like to say too that, you know, I think there's an idea when you're going into TV or,
you know, you know, coming from any film world, especially like, Oh, these execs are going to,
you know, take out what's great about the show.
They're going to ruin it. They're going to try to make it too commercial. And, and I think that was
always, you know, our concern going into some shows. It's always a concern, but in our
experience, at least in our experience, I can't speak for everybody, but, uh, in our experience,
we've had some of the smartest executives who have, you know, helped us make.
Every one of these, you know, from a creative standpoint, every one of these shows better, um,
and if you kind of assume that's going to be the case, you know, going into it, you assume that
these are people that are going to help me make this better. Um, I think it's a better starting
place and you may find that that's not true.
And you may find you have an executive that's just, you know, totally on a different planet and
not making the same show. And, uh, you know, you may have a different experience, but, um, In
our experience, it's been, uh, very additive and it's like, you don't want to admit that for some
reason from a creative, you know, as a creative, it's hard to admit, but you know, a lot of these
people are really good at what they do.
And, uh, and they, they can save you, you know, save you from maybe your worst instincts and
really, you know, kind of draw out your best instincts. And, um, and I think, you know, uh, to give
them the benefit of the doubt until, uh, until they prove otherwise, if they do.
John: And I'll say too, like one of our, one of our, you know, kind of mantras we came up with
early on is you can always make great changes with bad notes, you know, it, it kind of puts the
responsibility and the onus on you, the, the writer, creator, showrunner, whatever, like it puts the
onus on you, like you can make great changes, even if this, even if the notes seem hard or
daunting or impossible to accomplish, there is a, there's a great version.
And. Of, you know, a change that you can make that can address that note in some way, and it
is up to you to find that and do, um, or to have a, a really well articulated reason why that is
counter to, to the show, and I think part of that is knowing what, what you're really saying with
the show and what, what really, truly matters to you in the show.
So
Stacy: it sounds like what Drew is saying is executives are pretty smart in general, like our
experience has been, they give great notes. And then John, it sounds like what you're saying is

like, sometimes they not the best. Sometimes they don't give the best notes, but they almost
always are circling an area that needs your attention, right?
Maybe they're not so talented that they can articulate what the problem is. And in fact, maybe
they prescribe an idea that's the wrong idea, but they are almost always correct in that they've
circled something that is an area of concern. Yeah. Okay.
John: Thank you. Do you know what I mean? That's so well said.
That's so well said. And my experience, I love, like, execs tend to be so many, you know, there's
been so many layoffs since that, like the execs that tend to be, you know, have survived and be,
you know, doing their jobs tend to be, yeah, very, very smart and very, very helpful and additive.
Um, that said, even if a note is bad, yeah, there's something, there's something that's circling.
There's something that needs addressing. And, uh, you know, early on, I was told once, um. Be
wary of the things that people cite as their very favorite things and the things they don't like.
Those are, you know, the things that stand out on either end of that. You may have some big
giant set piece that people are like, Whoa, that's a crazy big set piece.
That's awesome. But that also might be your problem. So as you're, you know, doing your
rewrites and your proof of concept, just like really look at the, the things that people point out,
the things that nobody points out, those are the things that really fit, you know, the things that
like, and the things people love may be great, you know, we had, uh, you know, and, you know,
meeting with, uh, the mayor of Saddle String and Joe Pickett season one, the, the goat mayor,
he was a goat and Joe had to get his budget approved by like, and it was like this funny moment
and it died, you know, like people loved it.
People were like, I love the goat scene. Um, yeah. Uh, but, you know, it died because it didn't
quite fit the rest of the show, and execs will help guide you, um, to some extent, but you also
have to listen to your inner voice too. And it's, uh, there's an art to that. There's an art and a craft
to just learning how much to take and not take, and, and it's through doing lots of notes, rounds
of notes with execs, you'll get a sense of how to navigate that.
Most
Stacy: execs. Love stories as much as writers do. Yes. I think that's the thing that we all share,
and people don't want to say, they wouldn't be like, You're a suit, you're here to crush my
dreams. But like, no, man, they literally have chosen to work in a field where it's just stories all
day long. And that's so cool.
How many people work in stories? Not many.
Drew: Yeah, it's true. It's a creative job in and of itself.
John: Yeah. And I would say in TV, TV specifically is less about plot and it's more about
emotion. Um, and so these execs, you know, tend to be people who want to talk through big
emotions and stuff. And we've had some really deep human conversations.
Like I almost feel like, you know, talking notes, talking script is almost like just a big excuse for
us all to sit around and like talk about emotional stuff that really matters to us. And I think
keeping that in mind, keeping the connection with. people in mind, like bringing that to, like, if
that's your focus, if you're just focusing on connecting with other human beings over this project,
uh, then it's less about me versus them or like, you know what I mean?
Are they taking my thing away? Like, if you're just trying to connect with people, I feel like that, in
my mind, produces the best results. I agree. So, uh, next week we'll continue with the next three
functions of your pilot scripts. Uh, if you like our show, please consider taking a minute to

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